How do people feel about Paizo's "new" base classes?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Zhayne wrote:

I can agree with what has been said about restrictions. I just think most of those restrictions should exist at the table level, not at the system level, particularly when it comes to race and class. No matter where something is printed, whether initial 'core' book or random splatbook down the road, it is in no way obligated to be included in every game world.

(I say, as someone who habitually makes game worlds without humans ...)

There are plenty of people who will argue that everything in the rules should be available for anyone to play and that the GM is unfairly limiting players if he doesn't work it in to his setting or campaign on request.

See the last flamewar on this topic.


thejeff wrote:
Zhayne wrote:

I can agree with what has been said about restrictions. I just think most of those restrictions should exist at the table level, not at the system level, particularly when it comes to race and class. No matter where something is printed, whether initial 'core' book or random splatbook down the road, it is in no way obligated to be included in every game world.

(I say, as someone who habitually makes game worlds without humans ...)

There are plenty of people who will argue that everything in the rules should be available for anyone to play and that the GM is unfairly limiting players if he doesn't work it in to his setting or campaign on request.

Far from the current topic I think. I don't see anyone stating they want to play a guy in a hobgoblin ninja in Black PJs with throwing stars and a deeply Asian name, in a game that has no Asia. That's at the table level anyway. Saying its a no no for the entire game ever is very different.

Dark Archive

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Say we both want a sort of rogue/cleric hybrid. You get an inquisitor, who gets 3/4 casting and a bunch of additional abilities (judgments, etc.) that scale with level. Using traditional multiclassing I get... 1/2 casting, and some abilities that don't scale meaningfully with level....

Good stuff here.

Somewhere between 2nd edition, where a 10th/10th Elven Fighter/Mage was considered appropriate to adventure with an 11th or 12th level party, and today, where a 10th/10th Fighter / Mage is expected to hang with a 20th level party, despite being terribly ill-suited to that life, there's got to be a middle road.


MrSin wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
I can agree with what has been said about restrictions. I just think most of those restrictions should exist at the table level, not at the system level, particularly when it comes to race and class.
I think you just managed to state most of one of my big points in about 2 easy to understand sentences. I think I'm supposed to say thank you now.

You're welcome. :)


thejeff wrote:
Zhayne wrote:

I can agree with what has been said about restrictions. I just think most of those restrictions should exist at the table level, not at the system level, particularly when it comes to race and class. No matter where something is printed, whether initial 'core' book or random splatbook down the road, it is in no way obligated to be included in every game world.

(I say, as someone who habitually makes game worlds without humans ...)

There are plenty of people who will argue that everything in the rules should be available for anyone to play and that the GM is unfairly limiting players if he doesn't work it in to his setting or campaign on request.

See the last flamewar on this topic.

These people are wrong, and probably not the kinds of players you want in your game anyway.


a ninja could be clad in anything from a sailor schoolgirl uniform or french maid dress, to a victorian style gothic lolita dress, elegant kimono. or hell, even a peasant's burlap potato sack.


Schrodinger's Love Child wrote:
a ninja could be clad in anything from a sailor schoolgirl uniform or french maid dress, to a victorian style gothic lolita dress, elegant kimono. or hell, even a peasant's burlap potato sack.

If we're referencing anime, don't forget cat costumes, trench coats, metal armor, and orange jumpsuits.


MrSin wrote:
Schrodinger's Love Child wrote:
a ninja could be clad in anything from a sailor schoolgirl uniform or french maid dress, to a victorian style gothic lolita dress, elegant kimono. or hell, even a peasant's burlap potato sack.
If we're referencing anime, don't forget cat costumes, trench coats, metal armor, and orange jumpsuits.

those too. and don't forget that they can also be clad in skintight black leather/spandex, a brigandine tunic with a pair of tights, a robe and turban, or even blue body paint with a loin cloth.


Woad? Huh, I don't think I've seen that one. I think our point is that they can wear anything though.


MrSin wrote:

Pre made fluff is great, but don't let it limit people.

The fact that you made this point after reading my posts is proof that you missed my point. Because that is my point.

Pre-made fluff is a source of design inspiration and a method of encouraging entry-level role-play or world design.

House rules (including house flavor) is where those limits are moved passed or altered significantly.

I do want Paizo to be less restrictive, but I'm fine with them creating a baseline from which GMs can then alter for their own tables (which is the heart of the class-based design system).

Just a few examples:
* deities
* spells with descriptors
* classes with alignment restrictions
* classes with other RP requirements

This is not bad game design. This is limiting game design to create a particular feel or flavor. There is a difference.

I've also argued that Paizo should have minor side-notes (similar to the 3.5 "Behind the Screen" notes) with a "in your campaign" descriptions of methods and ideas for altering the base classes or rules to fit. From there, Golarion (or any setting) could be easily individualized by the variant rules options.

That said, you are correct that this is kind of off topic. So!

To get more on topic: the thread I linked, creating a world entirely out of the APG classes, should be pretty straight forward in showing what I think of 'em. :)


Tacticslion wrote:
MrSin wrote:

Pre made fluff is great, but don't let it limit people.

The fact that you made this point after reading my posts is proof that you missed my point. Because that is my point.

Or maybe I was agreeing and expanding upon it. Complete with an example of a flexible paladin class. As I said, I had trouble with the text wall. Didn't mean to insult at all.


Nor I. But if you did, I didn't see it, and apologize myself for any taken. :)

The Exchange

You cannot build a Bard in GURPS without more points than my calculator can handle. CANNOT!!!. The problem is that with every feature available to every player, they have to be priced according to power based on that availability. Classes provide more than 'fluff' The provide restrictions that make features affordable (since they can't be combined with any other listed feature in the rules, only within the class). Want a Mage, GURPS is fine. Want any kind of Fighter, Gurps. Want a fighting Mage, GURPS. Want a Bard not Gurps.
Every 20 years, I have a liverwurst sandwich to remind me that I don't like liverwurst. Every 10 years, I play GURPS to remind me I don't like GURPS!
I think a the other extreme (which I really like!!) is Traveler where all you're leveling occurs before you start play and what you get is partly randomized. After play starts, it's only objects that you own that increase. I would love to see a fantasy implementation of that.


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MrSin wrote:
Schrodinger's Love Child wrote:
a ninja could be clad in anything from a sailor schoolgirl uniform or french maid dress, to a victorian style gothic lolita dress, elegant kimono. or hell, even a peasant's burlap potato sack.
If we're referencing anime, don't forget cat costumes, trench coats, metal armor, and orange jumpsuits.

Is it bad that I'm planning for my ninja to say "Okay, I'm in charge, because I'm wearing red and I have swords"?

Liberty's Edge

Schrodinger's Love Child wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Schrodinger's Love Child wrote:
a ninja could be clad in anything from a sailor schoolgirl uniform or french maid dress, to a victorian style gothic lolita dress, elegant kimono. or hell, even a peasant's burlap potato sack.
If we're referencing anime, don't forget cat costumes, trench coats, metal armor, and orange jumpsuits.
those too. and don't forget that they can also be clad in skintight black leather/spandex, a brigandine tunic with a pair of tights, a robe and turban, or even blue body paint with a loin cloth.

...though it is a lot harder to hide the gizmos in a loin cloth...especially with your little buddy being in there.

Just sayin'.


Who said it was a man?

=p

Liberty's Edge

Rynjin wrote:

Who said it was a man?

=p

...nobody?

Even as a woman, it's not a lotta space...but you know...if ya got the extra equipment already...you know...


Damn it. i just had an akward moment

a tall and muscular man clad in sky blue runic body paint and a loincloth, pulling his gear out of his magically enhanced loin cloth of holding. ((haversack property on a loin cloth))

where does he get the gear?

"let me reach down my frontal flap, i might have something useful"


thejeff wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Assuming_Control wrote:


I haven't really encountered what you're describing, but I have encountered people who throw a fit over someone wanting to play a pole-arm Fighter (Like, a vanilla fighter with a glaive written down as guan-dao on his character sheet) from an ancient China analogue.

Wow, that is some serious racism there. "You use a Guan Dao and are based off Guan Yu? Get the *** out of here!" Shockingly bad form.

I wonder, and can barely grasp, how weirded out some people get by the idea of Asian themes, heroic Asian characters, ninjas and the like. The cultural worlds of gaming are not under their control, awww, they must rage so hard.

Might be racism. Might not be.

Might be not wanting to play with the whole fish out of water, alien from far away culture thing. If I'm running a real-world medieval Scottish Highlands game and someone shows up wanting to play an actual Chinese warrior, I'm going to shut him down.

This is the other side of the coin. This isn't wanting to use the Ninja mechanics in a non-Asian game. This is wanting to play the actual black PJ clad Ninja all the way from Japan in a Taldor game, using the rogue mechanics.

It wasn't historical. There was already crazy stuff going on like elves throwing fireballs (gasp) and lycanthrope PCs and Dragonslayer Barbarians and stuff like that.


Schrodinger's Love Child wrote:

Damn it. i just had an akward moment

a tall and muscular man clad in sky blue runic body paint and a loincloth, pulling his gear out of his magically enhanced loin cloth of holding. ((haversack property on a loin cloth))

where does he get the gear?

"let me reach down my frontal flap, i might have something useful"

So what anime/manga/whatever is this?


Rynjin wrote:
Schrodinger's Love Child wrote:

Damn it. i just had an akward moment

a tall and muscular man clad in sky blue runic body paint and a loincloth, pulling his gear out of his magically enhanced loin cloth of holding. ((haversack property on a loin cloth))

where does he get the gear?

"let me reach down my frontal flap, i might have something useful"

So what anime/manga/whatever is this?

one of the questionable ones you have to import from japan to watch. it is based on Celtic, Viking, and Saxon Lore. even though i was lucky to find it subtitled. i couldn't read the title because it was in japanese.

the main character was a tall and muscular blonde haired man who ran around in runic blue body paint with a loincloth, and was essentially a commando. and he always seemed to be pulling stuff out of his loin cloth.

it's not really a safe for work anime. think it was rated 17+. lots of pale, blonde, slender, petite, pointy eared women clad in extremely revealing see through sheer white clothing.

amazing quality artwork though. lots of detail on the human body, to the point of being creepy.

it was by the artist who drew "Reign; The Conquerer" nearly every major character was a blue eyed blonde with fair skin.


Title?


3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Title?

i already stated, that even though the dialogue was subtitled. that i could not read the title because the title was in Japanese and i cannot read Japanese. the description said something about being based on Viking, Saxon, and Celtic Lore. which was what intrigued me to order it off the internet.


I feel like we somehow lost track of talking about base classes when someone mentioned something about awesome ninja related loincloths...


Link?


3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Link?

you expect me to link to a bunch of DVDs i ordered 2 or 3 years ago on a computer that has died and been replaced. especially when not only can i find the link to order the DVDs because it is on a computer i no longer have, but even if i could, the art is so NSFW that i could get permabanned.

and as much as i would love to loan you the DVDs, mom said the series was too Racy and traded them to dimple 3 weeks later.


I think I know what you're talking about actually. One sec.

Vinland Saga?

I've never actually READ it but I figure there can't be that many Viking themed manga out there.


Rynjin wrote:

I think I know what you're talking about actually. One sec.

Vinland Saga?

I've never actually READ it but I figure there can't be that many Viking themed manga out there.

Same Basic concept, though a lot more NSFW and of the Ecchi Genre. everybody wore a lot less clothing than the Wiki entry depicts. which makes me think it was a different yet similar series.

if it has an NC17 rating and the main character wore sky blue runic body paint with a loincloth, then you got it.

Liberty's Edge

MrSin wrote:
I feel like we somehow lost track of talking about base classes when someone mentioned something about awesome ninja related loincloths...

Kinda looks like it.


Quick google+wikipedia search yields:
* Mythical Detective Loki
* Ragnarok the Animation
* Saint Seiya (not really, but it has viking things in it)
* Valkyrie Profile (games count, right?)
* Oh, my Goddess! (yeah, I know it's not this one, but I'm being complete, here, and it does technically reference Norse stuff)

Oh, and...
* Sparkling Generation Valkyrie Yuuki (which I'm kind of ashamed that I know it exists)

I'm pretty sure none of those are what you're looking for, as the only place I found a similar question asked specifically told the person, "go ask in the hentai forums because there are more there", indicating, from what I can tell, that none of the above are hentai (which is where I got most of the list). That seems to indicate that none of them would fall under what you mentioned. I'm not looking any harder than that, though.


lets just forget about the Norse hentai anime that 3.5 loyalist asked for links to.

the original point was that ninja could wear anything

somebody pointed out the ninja having difficulty hiding stuff in a loincloth

and it made me think of some hentai anime.

then we got sidetracked by trying to find this particular series.

Liberty's Edge

Schrodinger's Love Child wrote:

lets just forget about the Norse hentai anime that 3.5 loyalist asked for links to.

the original point was that ninja could wear anything

somebody pointed out the ninja having difficulty hiding stuff in a loincloth

and it made me think of some hentai anime.

then we got sidetracked by trying to find this particular series.

Yeah...didn't mean to contribute to that.

Heck, I'm not even that big an anime fan, at all. Ghost in the Shell, Akira...just about anything by Miyazaki...those rock...hentai pretty much blows. :p

(just my opinion)


Schrodinger's Love Child wrote:

lets just forget about the Norse hentai anime that 3.5 loyalist asked for links to.

the original point was that ninja could wear anything

somebody pointed out the ninja having difficulty hiding stuff in a loincloth

and it made me think of some hentai anime.

then we got sidetracked by trying to find this particular series.

Viking or Briton ninjas, it could all work.


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Ahem, as much as I love anime... :)

Saluzi wrote:
You cannot build a Bard in GURPS without more points than my calculator can handle. CANNOT!!!. The problem is that with every feature available to every player, they have to be priced according to power based on that availability

My Shadowrun group (I miss you guys!) tried an experiment where we converted our characters from our alternate week Pathfinder game into SR 4th ed rules as closely as we could. While this resulted in way too many physical adepts in the party, it was an interesting exercise, as it illustrated (for me at least) how big the differences between some of the Pathfinder classes were. Saluzi's comment just reminded me of that, for some reason.


EldonG wrote:
Schrodinger's Love Child wrote:

lets just forget about the Norse hentai anime that 3.5 loyalist asked for links to.

the original point was that ninja could wear anything

somebody pointed out the ninja having difficulty hiding stuff in a loincloth

and it made me think of some hentai anime.

then we got sidetracked by trying to find this particular series.

Yeah...didn't mean to contribute to that.

Heck, I'm not even that big an anime fan, at all. Ghost in the Shell, Akira...just about anything by Miyazaki...those rock...hentai pretty much blows. :p

(just my opinion)

it was of the Hentai Genre, but it had beautiful though creepy levels of bodily detail, and amazingly detailed facial expressions. the action was also wonderful, not like your standard shonen. there was no 5 episodes spent powering up. but lots of detailed military combat elements.

Liberty's Edge

Schrodinger's Love Child wrote:
EldonG wrote:
Schrodinger's Love Child wrote:

lets just forget about the Norse hentai anime that 3.5 loyalist asked for links to.

the original point was that ninja could wear anything

somebody pointed out the ninja having difficulty hiding stuff in a loincloth

and it made me think of some hentai anime.

then we got sidetracked by trying to find this particular series.

Yeah...didn't mean to contribute to that.

Heck, I'm not even that big an anime fan, at all. Ghost in the Shell, Akira...just about anything by Miyazaki...those rock...hentai pretty much blows. :p

(just my opinion)

it was of the Hentai Genre, but it had beautiful though creepy levels of bodily detail, and amazingly detailed facial expressions. the action was also wonderful, not like your standard shonen. there was no 5 episodes spent powering up. but lots of detailed military combat elements.

I will admit, that sounds remarkably different from your typical hentai. I'd give something like that a chance. Could be good.


I like almost all the classes (except Cavalier/Samurai i feel theyre too away from being a decent class at all)

The core classes are so complete, but as i said before, after 20+years playing with, it begin to tire being one!!

The base classes are very neat, since theyre some kind of specialized core classes (Alchemist is a wizard with potions, bombs, etc. Summoner is a mix for a Druid and a summoner, inquisitor is cleric/ranger mix, and so on...)

The magus is for me the best of the all new classes, i have waited so long to see this class happen!!

Also, the pyromancer is a good class at all (also that class includes some new spells and feats, and you can house rule her spells to get spell ideas for a new ones from another kind of energy [ice, acid, sonic, water, etc])

Spell-Less Ranger, Shadowsworn are great at all

So, now that we know we can have almost any class we wont, the rest is just sit at the table and give them life!!!


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From Paizo's new base classes to hentai Viking ninjas to 3pp classes... yep, I think this one is off the rails :)


It is more a trek up the side paths of pervert mountain, rather than a railroad.

Liberty's Edge

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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
It is more a trek up the side paths of pervert mountain, rather than a railroad.

I'm jumping...


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Yeah but Evard's field of black tentacles are below. Don't do it man. You have so much to live for.


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Speaking of hentai, I still chuckle a smidge every time I think of the page image for the PFSRD page on Black Tentacles.

Liberty's Edge

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3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Yeah but Evard's field of black tentacles are below. Don't do it man. You have so much to live for.

Perversion ahead, tentacles below? Lovecraft would have fainted.


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Looks like that's all folks!

We've drifted into tentacle talk. Time to shut 'er down.

Liberty's Edge

Assuming_Control wrote:

Looks like that's all folks!

We've drifted into tentacle talk. Time to shut 'er down.

Last call?


Paizo needs to make a tentacle mage base class. I know a player that would be all over it.


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There's no point. It'd be banned from every table.

Spoiler:
For being Asian themed and therefore automatically not fitting in their setting.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Paizo needs to make a tentacle mage base class. I know a player that would be all over it.

Dude if Paizo does that they need to get Evan's permission

What tentacle mage is complete without Evan's spiked tentacles of forced intrusion?

Liberty's Edge

Thomas Long 175 wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Paizo needs to make a tentacle mage base class. I know a player that would be all over it.

Dude if Paizo does that they need to get Evan's permission

What tentacle mage is complete without Evan's spiked tentacles of forced intrusion?

LOL!


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I have never allowed Summoner or Gunslinger.

All the other classes I allow. The summoner just seems a completely complicated redundant class. And I play in FR without Guns.

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