|
...
"Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon."
This means that if it's a weapon of the 2-h category, you apply 1-1/2 Str bonus to your damage, regardless of how many hands you actually use to wield it. It also establishes a default scenario.
So, by default if you are wielding a two-handed weapon either normally (with two hands) or exceptionally (with one hand), you apply 1-1/2 Str bonus unless explicitly instructed otherwise.
I'm not sure how you get that you can wield a two handed weapon in anything other than two hands and get that bonus.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
Bastard swords are both one handed and two handed weapons, you clearly only get benefits tied to two handed, when it's being wielded two handed.
The ability to wield a 2handed weapon in one handed doesn't magically make that one arm able to hit more effectively than when it was holding a 1handed weapon. Likewise it doesn't magically make that arm as effective damage wise as using both hands.
At many times in this thread, the "1.5X STR Damage when wielding a weapon in two hands" has come up...
Not only is this not the original topic, but when you get 1.5 times strength damage and when you do not is actually completely clear within the rules. Anyone questioning that is just extrapolating the original topic - power attack - backwards.
So I'd suggest we keep the conversation focused on Power attack.
|
The category two handed weapon has two consequences:
1. It requires two hands to wield.
2. It gets 1.5X STR bonus to damage.
The other view is this:-
1. It requires two hands to wield.
AND THEREFORE
2. It gets 1.5X STR bonus to damage.
Consequently, if you lose 1., you lose both.
I realise (after reading this thread) that the wording could be interpreted the other way, but I'm confident that if and when the devs rule on this that the answer will be that you only get 1.5 x Str bonus (and 3 for 1 on Power Attack) when actually using a weapon in two hands, irrespective of that weapon's 1H/2H category.
The other view is this:-
1. It requires two hands to wield.
AND THEREFORE
2. It gets 1.5X STR bonus to damage.
If you consider the "Damage" section of the Combat chapter to be the preeminent source about applying weapon damage, that is not just a view, but RAW.
Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies.
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
Different sections give different versions of how to apply strength damage, unfortunately, so this definitely needs clarification.
|
|
"Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands."
Logically, this statement only tells you how to calculate str bonus when you are wielding a weapon two-handed. It says nothing of how to calculate it when wielding a weapon (including exceptional cases with 2-h weapons) one-handed
Not quite true, as the section quoted above follows this:-
''Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.''
You can't just read the 'wielding a weapon two-handed' part and claim that the rules don't cover weapons used one-handed, because those rules are right above!
Stripping the rules back to basics, the rules for Str bonus to weapon damage are:-
1. Add your Str bonus to damage.
2. When wielding a weapon two-handed, that becomes 1.5 x Str bonus, unless the weapon is 'light'.
You can't claim that the one-handed use of a lance is not covered! It's covered by rule 1. All weapons are covered by rule 1., unless rule 2. applies. Does rule 2. apply to a lance used one-handed? No! Therefore, rule 1. applies. So, the one-handed use of a lance is covered by these rules. It's right there under rule 1.!
I can understand that the RAW can be read in two ways, owing to the description of the 'two-handed weapon' category not addressing the possibility of using a two-handed weapon in one hand, but any time the RAW can be reasonably read in two ways the solution is to use our brains! We then must understand the rule and the answer usually comes rather quickly!
In this case, the reason that you do 1.5 x Str bonus when using a weapon two-handed is that two hands are on the weapon! This allows the warrior to gain better leverage and concentrate all the power of his muscles into the blow, in a way that a single-handed blow cannot. Therefore, if you don't actually use two hands then you don't get the benefit of using two hands!
Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies.
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
With that in mind, I would request that any conversation focused on this topic be directed to another thread. The strength bonus to damage is utilized in this thread as an example of rules that are written in a way that does not leave question as to their intent. In short, the RAW and the RAI seem to agree in regards to strength bonus to damage. If you feel that is incorrect, then you are free to say so, but this is not the thread for that.
This thread is to discuss the RAW vs the RAI of Power Attack, which is worded in such a way that it utilizes different methods to determine the bonus damage than those used by your Strength Bonus. If you want to draw comparisons, then feel free, but the coversation has drifted off the original topic... Yes, I know this is a forum, and that happens often. Normally, I don't worry about it, but for the purposes of getting an FAQ response, it is in our best interest to stay on topic.
I constantly forget that common sense has no place on reading rules...I'm glad threads like this exist to set me straight
Keep up the good work guys :)
I constantly forget that common sense has no place on reading rules...I'm glad threads like this exist to set me straight
Keep up the good work guys :)
Haha, I very frequently apply common sense in table rulings. The rules forum, however, is a place to discuss RAW and to get questions answered - sometimes officially! RAI is important, but to a lesser extent when speaking in the rules forum.
Here's to hoping we can get an official answer on this FAQ and put this question to bed once and for all.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I honestly think that they (no specific dev in mind) let arguments like this go on without jumping in and answering to see if eventually a consensus can be reached.
People believe that even in PFS GM's have to make stupid calls, but as I posted recently I finally went to talk to a PFS GM and many of the things I heard about PFS are exaggerated 99% of the time. The ones that are completely true usually come down to it just being a bad GM who doesn't particularly like a specific player.
Isn't it written somewhere in the CRB that common sense should be used? I may have read that in a D&D book or one of the other RPG's I play but when I get mine back from the friend I lent it to I will double check.
The people I play with and myself both believe (and play) that PA gives the "one-handed" bonus/penalty if you are using the weapon in one hand, that included using a 2H weapon in one hand. If you wield a weapon in 2 hands, then you get the "two-handed" bonus/penalty.
Come Monday I will go do my new favorite thing and visit the local PFS GM's and ask how they run PA in cases where someone can wield a 2H weapon in one hand. Whether this is FAQ or not I personally do not care, but for those that just need someone to tell them I will hit the FAQ button :) and I really hope it helps.
|
** spoiler omitted **
The people I play with and myself both believe (and play) that PA gives the "one-handed" bonus/penalty if you are using the weapon in one hand, that included using a 2H weapon in one hand. If you wield a weapon in 2 hands, then you get the "two-handed" bonus/penalty.
Come Monday I will go do my new favorite thing and visit the local PFS GM's and ask how they run PA in cases where someone can wield a 2H weapon in one hand. Whether this is FAQ or not I personally do not care, but for those that just need someone to tell them I will hit the FAQ button :) and I really hope it helps.
Amen, brother.
Rule #1 should be WRITTEN...apply common sense to ALL other rules...that way, RAW would be common sense.
Now the real question...are there any weapons that fall into this FAQ besides the mounted lance?
Now the real question...are there any weapons that fall into this FAQ besides the mounted lance?
I would assume this applies to all two-handed weapons used in one hand unless the means by which you're wielding the weapon specify otherwise (ex. Jotungrip).
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qno
Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?
Yes.
Surprising.
Would have preferred one of the longer answers to this question with some of the developer intent or interpretation included, rather than a single word response.
Good news for the Titan Maulers and lancers in any case.
|
so now when you wield a bastard sword it deal two handed bonus str damage even if in one handed?
Unless the design team comes back with a clarification, no.
This only applies to the power attack 50% bonus, not the strength 50% bonus when using a two-handed weapon in one hand.
The lance is the only thing that comes to mind that actually benefits from this. Even the Titan Mauler's Jotungrip ability specifically says to treat it as a one-handed weapon when determining the effect of power attack.
so now when you wield a bastard sword it deal two handed bonus str damage even if in one handed?
I understand the lance bit, just not for other weapons.
A bastard sword is a One-Handed weapon not a Two-Handed weapon so this doesn't apply. Really the lance and maybe the Phanlax fighter archetype ( have to check it) as the only times I think this applies.
Phalanx Soldier is out its says as a one-handed weapon.
Much appreciated Design Team. Thanks for the response.
(I also would have liked more than a single word, but if giving us a 1 word response here means that you were able to answer more FAQ questions, then it is acceptable.)
Though I have to say that I had expected they would rule this one the other way, as that just seemed a much more obvious original intent to me. Maybe they just decided that buffing a few under used and under powered builds was a better outcome than having to modify the rules as written (thus causing everyone with purchased books to have outdated copies in one more respect.)
Titan mauler is out. Jotungrip calls out that power attack, STR damage, and "like wise" are treated as one-handed.
|
|
I predict another round of clarifications on this one. Here's some quotes:
Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.
Phalanx Fighting (Ex): At 3rd level, when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon.
Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon.
Benefit: You can use a dorn-dergar as a one-handed weapon.
All except the lance specifically say you can use them "as a one-handed weapon." The lance language is slightly different. And of course
Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.
I personally would allow the bonus Power Attack damage on everything except Jotungrip, since it specifically insists you treat it as a one-handed weapon for Power Attack damage. But I can see the other interpretation as well (the lance never says it changes the category to one-handed, just that you only need one hand).
Of course this also opens up the can of worms about inappropriately sized weapons:
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon.
So could a Medium creature grab a Small greataxe and get +50% Power Attack damage? (It is a two-handed weapon you would be wielding in one hand.)
|
|
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qno
Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?
Yes.
I am surprised and disappointed that this is the conclusion the paizo team elected to make.
I am surprised and disappointed that this is the conclusion the paizo team elected to make.FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qno
Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?
Yes.
I'm surprised at the answer. I'm completely unsurprised that they managed to answer in a way that doesn't settle the OP's question at all.
|
|
I'm surprised at the answer. I'm completely unsurprised that they managed to answer in a way that doesn't settle the OP's question at all.I am surprised and disappointed that this is the conclusion the paizo team elected to make.FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qno
Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance while mounted), do still I get the +50% damage for using a two-handed weapon?
Yes.
It is true that the design team did not fully answer the OP's question; however, they did provide a partial answer rather quickly.
The Paizo team should be commended on the recent changes to the faq process. It certainly looks to me like they are working to make positive steps forward. Being demeaning is not productive.
Hey now, if you can't be demeaning on the internet, then what is the internet for?
Just demeaning people. And pr0n. But I don't see any pr0n here...
(Just kidding, I agree with RedDogMT 101%)
|
|
Of course this also opens up the can of worms about inappropriately sized weapons:
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon.So could a Medium creature grab a Small greataxe and get +50% Power Attack damage? (It is a two-handed weapon you would be wielding in one hand.)
I thought about this too, but the text you quoted prevents it. When you change the size category, how the weapon is designated changes. Thus a Medium creature using a Small greataxe uses it as a one-handed weapon, thus no +50% PA damage.
I apply a basic houserule in all my games that an ability that is supposed to benefit you doesn't hinder you unless it's supposed to.
Taking exotic weapon proficiency in bastard sword shouldn't LESSEN the damage you do with it while using it 2-handed.
The main benefit of Jotungrip shouldn't be to make Elven Curve Blade TWF finesse builds viable.
And so forth.
I for one will apply this logic to abilities that say "treat the weapon as if it were one-handed."
Wielding a two-handed weapon in one hand due to a special ability should be at least nearly as good as using it two-handed.
The lance says can be wielded in one hand the Phanlax ability says as a one-handed weapon. If your using it as a one handed weapon then it's not a two-handed while using it that way.
Bit of a thread necro, but can a medium character wield a small greatsword one-handed and get +50% damage from Power Attack? (I understand that Str bonus would still be x1.)
You would eat the -2 size penalty, but it is still a two-handed weapon, so unless I am missing something this should work by the new ruling.
Twig, a Medium character weilding a Small 2H weapon treats it as a 1H weapon.
Bit of a thread necro, but can a medium character wield a small greatsword one-handed and get +50% damage from Power Attack? (I understand that Str bonus would still be x1.)
You would eat the -2 size penalty, but it is still a two-handed weapon, so unless I am missing something this should work by the new ruling.
I apprecaite the development team answering my original question in the FAQ, but I really wish they had answered the whole question, or at least answered it a bit longer and more fully. I would have liked to have seen a few examples in the response to qualify fully when you do or do not get the "bonus damage" from power attack.
The development team got a lot of FAQs out quickly and for that I am very appreciative. However, it seems that in their quest to briefly answer a few of the questions, some of their intention was lost. This was not the only recent FAQ response which raised as many questions as it solved. (Specifically the change to spell-like abilities and how far the allowance of those to count as spells goes is a really hot topic... Can an Aasimar take levels of Mysthic Theurge starting at second level? Can an Aasimar Fighter take the Arcane Strike feat? Etc.)
EDIT: SKR gave the appropriate ruling which makes this a moot point. Though my request still stands - Slightly longer FAQ response that show intention help DMs to make more educated rulings and are therefore a good thing.
Twig, a Medium character weilding a Small 2H weapon treats it as a 1H weapon.
Thanks Sean! It was an honest question. I just haven't been able to find the rule yet.
Edit: Argh! Here it is.
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons
This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Page 144, Inappropriately Sized Weapons section. :)
This thread makes me cry tears of blood.