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I have been playing PFRPG since 2010. I started back in 4e before that after having a hiatus off of RPGs since 2e. I never played 3.x and PF is my first foray into that style of play. While engaging on other forums, there has been talk about PF having this overpowered Druid and cleric that were I guess overpowered? In 3e? I haven't seen evidence of this since I've been playing and I've been to Paizo Con and played with a variety of groups. Is this something Paizo fixed? Was it ever really a thing? Does it still exist and is it easy to do and fairly common?
Thanks!
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Druids have been made "reasonable" by the altered wildshape rules. In 3.x you inherited an animal's strength and such; so if you dumped those as a druid, you'd still rock because the animal shape's stats replaced your own.
PF wildshape doesn't work that way; druids need all of their physical stats, making them MADder than in 3.x (although not uncomfortably much, either).
Cleric is largely unchanged from 3E other than lack of DMM Persist (if not using 3E supplements). Druid is nerfed, but not *really* badly. Both can still fight very well.
MAD = Multiple Ability Dependent, btw. As opposed to a wizard, who can max intelligence, wants a decent constitution and dexterity but doesn't NEED them, and cares little to not for the other scores.
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MAD means Multiple Attribute Dependent, meaning that the class requires more than 1 high stat (and 1 or 2 good stat's) to function. Wizards and Sorcerers can hae a super high Int/Cha, and then a 12-14ish Dex and Con and be perfectly fine. They don't really need Str, Wis, and either Cha or Int (the one that's not their caster stat).
A Druid can get away with dumping Int and Cha, for the most part, and a Cleric basically needs to really choose which stat they need the least, usually either Dex or Int. So they are MAD classes, while the Sorcerer and Wizard are SAD, (Single Attribute Dependent).
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CoDzilla is there because, with core stuff, the Cleric or Druid could fulfill pretty much any or all of the roles of the party; skill monkey, primary caster, healer, and primary melee.
It's harder for them to do it in Paizo. Various buffs no longer stack, and the ability to make multiple buffs last all day doesn't exist (although there's a ring that helps with one of them).
For Druids, it's much harder for them to do the melee role because they can't dump stats anymore. It used to be, turn into a brown bear, str 25, con 20 dex 14, hooty-hoo! Wander around as an ape all day and get its physical stats and your normal ones. A Druid basically needed Wis, Con and maybe some Cha to get by.
Now, a 10 Str Druid turning into a bear gets a str of 18. Con 10 becomes con 14, I believe. That is a significant downgrade. Without the super-uber combat stats, the melee role is harder for them, just like for the cleric. Wilding clasps that let you get all the benefits of your gear in animal forms aren't quite around now, either.
Spells that allowed bypassing of skills are rarer now, too, or at least domain restricted. Many spells have been tweaked or rebalanced, or simply don't exist.
It's possible to blow a lot of spells and buffs and really become a terror for a single nova fight...but being able to kick the fighter or barb out the door isn't anywhere near as much of an option.
==Aelryinth
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Okay. Thanks for the acronym update. In my experience it seems as if the alchemist has the proclivity to be one of the most powerful in the game. I didn't think there was a huge disparity in power between PF classes like others make it out to be. I like PF and subscribed because I like the sense of community. I like the devs. I like the materials, I like the classes.
I think perhaps CoDZilla is perhaps an overstatement for PF?
Mileage varies for each class depending on what kind of build you have an what kind of situation you're in. While an superstition/pounce barbarian might crush most things, one building elemental rage might not do as well. There is a time and place for all classes, and (nearly) all builds. Even rogues can be a force to be reckoned with if played correctly. Balance should not be an issue if your GM is creative in how they design encounters. There is only one class I keep out of my games, and that is Summoners. I have bad experiences with them, and just prefer not to have to GM for them.
To an extent, "CODzilla" still exists in Pathfinder (Cleric/Oracle/Druid under these rules). All three primary divine casters can be effectively self-buffed into a strong combatant.
However, the spells and other polymorph effects (like wildshape) are no longer as game-busting as they were in 3.x (and earlier). For one thing, it's no longer just one or two spells, but several different groupings (by form type) of various power levels; as mentioned, these no longer replace the caster's ability scores/etc., but apply modifiers to the caster's own scores.
Some of the buffs have been toned down as well.
Also, the non-casters have received boosts. Some more than others, but in general the gap is less than it was in 3.x. A "CODzilla" can still effectively serve as a combatant, but they don't completely outclass the barbarian or fighter with minimal preparation anymore (assuming that the non-casters are allowed appropriate gear under WBL guidelines, to include potions and other consumables); basically a buffed "CODzilla" usually lags a little behind a buffed martial in pure combat effectiveness (DPR), but can also use spells/other abilities that the martials lack (instead of being better at both in 3.5).
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As for the CoDzilla, it was more of a myth than an actual thing. It happened sometimes, but wasn't common. The Druidzilla was a much more common, and while PF has reduced it to a point by changing Wild Shape, it's still fairly alive and kicking.
A lot of Cleric spells have been changed so that they do not work together, almost all of the Domain Powers do not actually apply to the Cleric themselves, and some of the cooler 3E options don't exist in PF. The thing about the Codzilla was that it focused on self-buffing, self-healing, and wading into combat on their own, aiding others mostly when a spell allowed others to be included, but didn't go out of their way to do so most of the time, and rarely would they sacrifice a spell to heal others.
The play style portion of it is still in PF, but the mechanical portion, the one that was never really an actual issue for most people is more tricky.
Alchemists have melee power because they get what the druids and clerics used to get...stacking buffs particular to their class that last a LONG time.
That, and multiple attacks early they don't have to pay much for.
Add that to ranged attacks and more buff/unbuff spells, and yes, alchemists likely have far too much power for their class in the melee category, and should probably be nerfed. Simply making some of their extracts and mutagens enhancement bonuses so they don't stack with other spells/effects, and not allowing multiple attacks without the appropriate feats, would probably do the job.
==Aelryinth
In my experience most of the allegedly game-breaking things occur at higher levels (around and after 10th level), so you aren't likely to see a whole lot of it earlier, excepting cases where people deliberately go for the most min-maxed build they can, which makes it a table-by-table basis.
DMM stuff could be as early as level 3...Persisting Divine Favor for stacking TH/Dmg. Then you grab Extra Turning until you could Persist another spell.
Clerics could get very strong very early in 3.5. Combine with Greater Magic Weapon/Vestment lasting hours and getting them better gear then their companions, and the only combat feat they might need was Power Attack.
==Aelryinth
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Only one way to do it that I know of, and it meant that you needed to roll a lot of good stats. Point-buy didn't work so well.
16 Str and Cha, 14 Dex, Con, and Wis. Right Domain (Planning?) for Extend Spell for free, 1st level Feat went to Persistent Spell, Human Bonus Feat went to Divine Metamagic. 1/Day you could Divine Favor (+1 Luck to attacks and damage for 24 hours). Two more Feats worth of Extra Turning means you could do a second sell for 24 hours.
The one thing that really made it viable was the rods from Libri Mortis which granted you extra Turning Attempts, with people assuming you could buy a bunch and use them this way.
Yeah, although the Char-ops board ruled that Nightsticks didn't stack, so you could only gain the benefits of 1.
Still, two extra turning feats at levels 3 and 6, plus Nightsticks, and you could Persist Spell #2...cue Divine Might for full BAB. One more Extra turning, and you could Persist spell#3, be size L, +6 Str, and +1 HP/level, with Dr/opposite align.
And that was all by level 9. Yep, the melee was definitely not needed at that point if you didn't want him. the cleric was a full power melee, with full spellcasting tacked on.
==Aelryinth
Clerics got a fair bit of nerfbat ... their spell list just isn't as shiny any more (command undead got better in some ways though, although to maintain control for long you have to get tricky).
Druid wildshape got nerfed a bit, but meh that only ever was a secondary bit of fun ... the animal companion didn't really get nerfed, at least not if you just pick one of the less than a handful of good ones. The Druid is still a full caster with a pocket fighter.
So basically we have DoDzilla.
Good Ones?
you obviously mean the Large Cat. which is hosed by anything with DR.
Clerics got a fair bit of nerfbat ... their spell list just isn't as shiny any more (command undead got better in some ways though, although to maintain control for long you have to get tricky).
Druid wildshape got nerfed a bit, but meh that only ever was a secondary bit of fun ... the animal companion didn't really get nerfed, at least not if you just pick one of the less than a handful of good ones. The Druid is still a full caster with a pocket fighter.
So basically we have DoDzilla.
Good Ones?
you obviously mean the Large Cat. which is hosed by anything with DR.
Everyone knows the best companions are the T-Rex and the Vital-Striking Hippo
Everyone knows the best companions are the T-Rex and the Vital-Striking HippoClerics got a fair bit of nerfbat ... their spell list just isn't as shiny any more (command undead got better in some ways though, although to maintain control for long you have to get tricky).
Druid wildshape got nerfed a bit, but meh that only ever was a secondary bit of fun ... the animal companion didn't really get nerfed, at least not if you just pick one of the less than a handful of good ones. The Druid is still a full caster with a pocket fighter.
So basically we have DoDzilla.
Good Ones?
you obviously mean the Large Cat. which is hosed by anything with DR.
large cat has 5 attacks, fast speed, and pounce.
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Clerics also got a few buffs that act like nerfs as far as CoDzilla is concerned.
A lot of people were upset that Clerics were always expected to be the healer, and never actually got to cast their spells because they needed them for Cure spells. So they got Channel Energy-- an ability that lets them release a small nova of healing energy that heals everybody in it. This ability is separate from their spells, so the Cleric has some more freedom in what he or she casts.
The nerf part is: because Clerics now has an extra resource for healing, they get fewer spells per day than they did in 3.X. In addition, their Channel Energy is Charisma-based while their spells are Wisdom-based. And when I say that Channel Energy heals everybody in radius, I mean EVERYBODY, even your enemies. Clerics can take a feat to exclude certain targets from the healing, but the feat has a Charisma requirement. So in addition to needing good physical stats, a Cleric needs good Wisdom and Charisma.
They also lost proficiency in heavy armor, so they also need Dex more than they did in 3.X. But since Channel Energy has a 30-foot radius, they can at least still heal the fighter without having to go stand right next to him.
Clerics get a lot of milage out of Channel, which means they need CHA also.
The thing about the CODzilla was that it didn't exist much in the wild (well, at least the Cleric version). CODzilla was a self-buffing melee monster. IF you knew you had only one encounter, and IF you knew what that encounter was, a 3.5 cleric could be devastating.
With DMM and unlimited Nightsticks (which is a doubtful rule stretch, but hey) a Cleric could have every Buff on all day.
Now, DMM is gone, so are nightsticks, and many cleric self-buffing spells are gone. Fighters are tougher.
So yeah, the CoDzilla is gone. But certainly, one can make a combat cleric almost as good in melee as a fighter, and much more flexible.
I have never played in a game that allowed the DMM persist cheese. Most commonly either Nightsticks were banned, Persistent Spell was banned, or both. Which is what I always did, as both things were super stupidly broken and ripe for abuse. DMM itself I didn't mind, when you have actual limited turn undeads, and the metamagic feat you're using it for has a limited time the effect is lasting. DMM Quicken is still great, for example, but that's FIVE turn undeads for one spell and then it's over. Big difference from having the spell stick around for 24 hours that was supposed to be round/level, BIIIIIIG difference!
In any case, clerics did not need that to fight on par or better than a Fighter in 3E, nor do they in PF. Divine Power and Righteous Might are amazing buffs and weren't nerfed at all in PF. Hell, I think DP is actually better now. The only way it's not is if you have a haste up that combat.
Just looked up 'DMM' - Divine Metamagic.
Apparently there was a feat in 3.5 where you could sacrifice uses of channel energy (turn undead) in place of the spell level increases to cast metamagic.
In addition there was a 'persistent metamagic' feat that increased spell duration to 24 hours but increased spell level by 6.
So with a couple of feats a divine caster could get those Righteous Might type spells running 24 hours a day.
DMM? Sorry, I missed all of 3.x
Divine Metamagic, introduced in complete divine lets you blow turning attempts (now channel energy uses) to fuel metamagic without sacrificing higher level spell slots. designed for the general purpose of giving a use for the otherwise useless turn undead ability.
nightsticks, introduced in the splatbook, libris mortis, were an item that cost around 8,000 GP or thereabouts and each one gave 4 extra turning attempts per day. and before a little known char op ruling that never became official errata. you could stack multiple nightsticks for Divine Metaamgic Fuel
the persistent spell metamagic feat i beleive was introduced in complete arcane. regardless of how long a buff would normally last, a spell slot six levels higher would make it last 24 hours or until dispelled, whichever came first.
so, by blowing 6 turning attempts per spell and using 3 nightsticks for a total of 12 daily uses, you could make 2 buffs with a duration of rounds per level, last a flat 24 hours instead.
essentially, by removing the action to cast the buffs and conserving the slots spent casting them, you could be more versatile, while being an amazing fighter worthy of defeating fighters.
Cleric-Zilla Builds always used longspears and spiked gauntlets unless a domain or deity offered them a better reach weapon
the reason why, is because reach while under the effects of righteous might, was a huge and nearly guaranteed bonus to damage in most dungeons.
And again, DMM had a high cost (I think it's actually 1 + level adjustment, so 7 turn undead uses per persistent spell, 5 per quickened, etc...), the aspects that made the combo broken were night sticks (so you no longer actually have a truly finite resource) and Persistent Spell. Which let you ride the boon of DMM out a full 24 hours and was just inherently broken as a feat. Not caring at all what the normal duration is and just flat turning it into 24 hours is blatantly problematic, I don't understand how someone could not comprehend this.
With no persistent spell feat and no nigh-infinite turn undeads, DMM is not that bad. I also think capping it to your highest possible spell level (9th for clerics) like PF's Spell Perfection does would be a fair nerf.
And again, DMM had a high cost (I think it's actually 1 + level adjustment, so 7 turn undead uses per persistent spell, 5 per quickened, etc...), the aspects that made the combo broken were night sticks (so you no longer actually have a truly finite resource) and Persistent Spell. Which let you ride the boon of DMM out a full 24 hours and was just inherently broken as a feat. Not caring at all what the normal duration is and just flat turning it into 24 hours is blatantly problematic, I don't understand how someone could not comprehend this.
With no persistent spell feat and no nigh-infinite turn undeads, DMM is not that bad. I also think capping it to your highest possible spell level (9th for clerics) like PF's Spell Perfection does would be a fair nerf.
instead of that, change the nightstick from "turning attempts" to an equivalent number of "channel uses"
no PCs have to decide between blowing them on metamagic, or using them to heal their buddies.
but the 9th level spell limit is also fine.
the reason nightsticks were so overpowered was because divine metamagic was the only viable way to utilize "turning" because it's intended uses were worthless, even at level 1.
with the healing option, divine metamagic is far less likely, and the 8,000 GP price tag will cut into one's wealth by quite a bit.
i reccommend allowing life oracles and other channeling classes to also use them.
Clerics also got a few buffs that act like nerfs as far as CoDzilla is concerned.
A lot of people were upset that Clerics were always expected to be the healer, and never actually got to cast their spells because they needed them for Cure spells. So they got Channel Energy-- an ability that lets them release a small nova of healing energy that heals everybody in it. This ability is separate from their spells, so the Cleric has some more freedom in what he or she casts.
The nerf part is: because Clerics now has an extra resource for healing, they get fewer spells per day than they did in 3.X. In addition, their Channel Energy is Charisma-based while their spells are Wisdom-based. And when I say that Channel Energy heals everybody in radius, I mean EVERYBODY, even your enemies. Clerics can take a feat to exclude certain targets from the healing, but the feat has a Charisma requirement. So in addition to needing good physical stats, a Cleric needs good Wisdom and Charisma.
They also lost proficiency in heavy armor, so they also need Dex more than they did in 3.X. But since Channel Energy has a 30-foot radius, they can at least still heal the fighter without having to go stand right next to him.
Umm... the spells per day change was also applied to druid. It has nothing to do with the channel energy class feature.
Channel Energy is nice, but largely out of combat healing that can be replaced by wands of CLW past the first few levels, so no, a cleric does not NEED charisma.And he can wear good armor, so dex isn't hugely important, either. Cleric is at most only slightly MAD, Druid is worse in that category, he actually does need all 3 physicals plus wisdom. Also, should a cleric need to... there is no difference in skill points for Int 7 or even 5 (racial penalty) versus Int 9, and only 1 lost skill point compared to Int 10-11. And you can still use favored class bonus and human to get 3 skill points per level. A druid who drops Int below 10 has much more to lose. You can build a perfectly serviceable cleric with Dex 10-12, Cha 10, Int 7, and high wisdom with 14-ish strength and Con, easily. With higher point buy, good rolls, or the right race, you could get the str up higher, possibly even to 18 while still maintaining Wis 18+.
The lost heavy armor proficiency is easily countered by the freebie proficiency with deity's favored weapon. In 3E, that was a feature of the War Domain only, which only certain deities even had. In PF, nearly any cleric is going to get a martial or exotic weapon proficiency.
the reason nightsticks were so overpowered was because divine metamagic was the only viable way to utilize "turning" because it's intended uses were worthless, even at level 1.
Divine Spell Power was quite good, and only cost one turn attempt each use. Could net you up to +4 CL on a spell, was awesome with lengthy buff spells like Magic Vestment.
IIRC, there was also a variant in Complete Mage to counterspell with turn undead uses that was at least decent.
Is this something Paizo fixed?That would require Paizo to have fixed something.
not something paizo fixed, merely something their system excludes due to WotC's focus on intellectual property.
in fact, there are a lot of WotC classes Paizo cannot update due to the IP but can create class alikes or archetypes of.
i doubt we will ever see a proper 3.5 style Warlock, Swordsage, Incarnate, Binder, or Psion in the official Pathfinder RPG line.
we have the Dreamscarred Press Psion
and well, we have several dozen warlock conversions you can search, but nobody wants to deal with converting the book of 9 swords, tome of magic, nor magic of incarnum
the reason nightsticks were so overpowered was because divine metamagic was the only viable way to utilize "turning" because it's intended uses were worthless, even at level 1.Divine Spell Power was quite good, and only cost one turn attempt each use. Could net you up to +4 CL on a spell, was awesome with lengthy buff spells like Magic Vestment.
IIRC, there was also a variant in Complete Mage to counterspell with turn undead uses that was at least decent.
but those were all created because the traditional intended use, combating the undead, it failed heavily at.
using PF style channel energy uses with the nightstick, gives an option to work around the percieved need for divine metamagic to make a class feature or class feature augment item use, essentially, giving the option for a handful of extra heals.
Due to being the "edition for those who didn't want to go to 4E" effectively, I've noticed PF is outright allergic to encounter-based abilities and subsystems, they even removed the only core 3E one, Barbarian's rage, in favor of a rounds-based system. Along with not wanting to give fighter types magical powers again because...4E.
So yeah, I doubt you will ever see a PF Tome of Battle.
Converting it isn't that hard, though. The skill consolidations mostly fall in line (Acrobatics becomes key skill for WAAAY too many disciplines, though, 3 out of 9). The main problems are Concentration no longer being a skill and needing replacement, and Swordsages going from the weakest of the 3 ToB classes to nigh-unplayable due to the tumble nerfs and the fact their entire class is based around skirmishing with standard action strikes (ie, Spring Attack won't cut it, before you even try to suggest it to me).
If you make Diamond Mind run off of Martial Lore or Perception or just leave in the 3E concentration skill just for ToB, re-assign key skills for Iron Heart (I like the idea of Sleight of Hand) and/or Stone Dragon, and allow movement made in rounds you make a strike to not provoke AoOs, you've already done most of the work to convert it.
DMM? Sorry, I missed all of 3.x
Divine Metamagic. For a 3-feat investment and spending your turn undead attempts (the otherwise fairly useless 3.5 version of Channeling), you could have 1 spell last 24 hours, 2 with a bit of feat investment, more if your GM allowed a specific magic item.
CoDzilla used to be a problem.
But then he got banned from the forum.
The reason your cleric is unimpressive is probably those monk levels. As you might have noticed from the great number of monk threads here, the monk is widely held to be pretty weak compared to the cleric.
Multiclassing is also usually a bad idea when you're primarily a spellcaster. When a rogue multiclasses he at least keeps getting skill points and BAB to help him do his job. When a caster multiclasses their spells just stop progressing.
As most people here have said, you can kind of make CoDzilla, but it's definitely not as powerful or problematic.
CoDzilla is no more. Cleric and Druid are now the Freds of the Scooby Doo Gang, while Velma (the Fighter) has only gotten cooler over time.
i doubt we will ever see a proper 3.5 style Warlock, Swordsage, Incarnate, Binder, or Psion in the official Pathfinder RPG line.
You say that as if it's a bad thing.
The 'combo' of a Cleric with DMM was Divine Power, Divine Favor, and Righteous Might.
Divine Favor has been both limited in power, and no longer stacks with Divine Favor. That's a big nerf right there.
But the other thing was the other long lasting buffs. You get Extend Spell as part of Persistent Spell. Combine with Greater Magic Weapon & ARmor, and Shield of Faith, get a necklace of Prayer Beads with the +4 caster level, and at level 8 you are casting 3 buffs that by themselves will last all day. You also don't need to spend money on armor, weapons, and a ring of prot, because of your spells.
Then you DMM the Trio, and you're sitting there with +3/+3 Th/Dmg, Fighter BAB, +9 HP, +6 str, size L, +3 Deflection, Dr 5/Alignment, Reach, and +3 Armor and Weapons. If you enhance the armor and weapons on the side, you might have a +3 Holy weapon to match the fighter's +3 weapon, and +3 Armor of, oh, Ghost touch, to match the fighter's +3 Armor.
And then there was the Mass Cure Lesser Vigor, which could give the entire party fast healing 1 all day, and Persistent Recitations, which could give everyone a +6 bonus to all saves...
Yeah, DMM and Persistent Spell were HIGHLY abusable.
The workaround if Persistent Spell was banned was, of course, Quicken Spell, so you could get your buffs off and still attack. You still had armor, weapon and deflection bonuses that lasted all day, which were significant right there.
And the biggest thing here is that a combat cleric did not need a high Wis score, so they could have decent Str and Con to tank it up. You were a buffer, you didn't throw spells on the enemy, so you didn't care about saves. You could reasonably start with a 13 Wis, and just be able to get a Wis booster as you levelled, and you'd still be able to cast all the spells you needed.
DMM's power to break the metacap (caster limit on spells) is what really drove the Cleric. Basically, you're getting power buffs 8 levels early. That's really, really strong. Add that to long lasting weapon, armor and deflection buffs, and clerics did really, really well.
==Aelryinth
Codzilla is sort of back in the form of the synthesist summoner though. He isnt a full spell caster, but he has a solid spell list, and with the bruiser eidolon over him, he is as good in combat as just about anything even without the good buffs he has access to.
Oh come on we are dealing with the difference of a first level spell and a 7th a 3rd and 9th. Given the degree of shenanigans available at those high spell levels it hardly overpowered (unless using DM).
It's an exploit. It exists solely to be an exploit. It isn't a reasonable feat that unfortunately can be exploited, its very basis and intention is to exist solely for the purpose of being exploited.
+6 levels is obviously very, very rough. Turning a spell into a 24 hour duration regardless of its normal duration is also clearly ideal for finding some low level spell that is only balanced due to a very short duration. The very high price and very high reward means you're only ever going to use it if you find a particularly devastating combo, or possibly if you find a way around the price (DMM was the easiest and most common, but there were others... Bards had a feat to burn performance uses in exchange for not increasing levels on metamagic, for instance.
Yeah, CoDZilla kind of died. Used to be, you could blow some spells and be outright better at melee than the actual melee characters. Nowadays a cleric can burn a bunch of resources to simply catch up to the fighter or cavalier.
It's resource intensive enough that if you don't have a lot of pearls of power (or devote all of your spell slots to it), you're really only going to be able to buff up for one or two fights and be done. In my experience, it's way more efficient to just support the actual martial characters.
A 3.X game I was in had a melee cleric of doom, but he also had both amazing stats - he was an Oriental Adventures Tengu, somewhat modified to be a PC race, but he had like a 20 base strength or something - and he was amazingly lucky - he consistently scored at least one crit with his longspear every time he took a full attack action. For almost the entire campaign. The PC was the prophet of the god of destruction, and the dice backed him up.
Melee druids took a huge hit, since you simply bump your existing stats instead of completely replacing them. Used to be that you could that you could morph into a dire animal and then animal growth yourself for stupidly high stats. That simply doesn't work anymore. Among other things, polymorph spells and size enhancement spells grant non-stacking Size bonuses.
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Demoniac sort of classifies as a warlock does it not? I cannot believe WotC has the IP lockdown on a warlock or psion since those are generic classes....not like a mind flayer or anything.
I am glad that CoDZilla isn't really that much of an issue in PFRPG, it seems like its had the desired effect of stratification of classes, rather than splitting classes into good/worse categories.
i doubt we will ever see a proper 3.5 style Warlock, Swordsage, Incarnate, Binder, or Psion in the official Pathfinder RPG line.I dearly hope you're right.
i actually liked those classes. a little odd each one of them was, but they were freaking fun to play
i doubt we will ever see a proper 3.5 style Warlock, Swordsage, Incarnate, Binder, or Psion in the official Pathfinder RPG line.You say that as if it's a bad thing.
i actually want to see these alternate casting systems in play. even if they are dwarfed by core casters.
The thing with the 3e Warlock wasn't the 'flavor' ... it was the mechanics. It was an at-will spellcaster. COMPLETELY at will. Everything it could do, it could do all day, every round, round after round.
It was a GREAT class, mechanically speaking. Not overpowered (even a little on the weak side by most estimations), but gave people something they wanted. A caster that didn't have to run on spell slots.