After reading and talking to other forum goers in the Advice section, it reminded me of a talk I had with my table about Paladins.
As we all know there are a lot of different gods out there and with each god there are different tenets/codes/dogma that their followers adhere to, within their followers are different races who have different ideals/morals/ethics. Some are gods of vengeance, some of love, some of redemption, and some of knowledge. Every god has followers and every follower is a different person.
The reason I bring this up is to discuss a house-rule my table and I talked about when dealing with Paladins. We spoke of allowing Paladins to be of any "good" alignment not just Lawful Good, when following a good or neutral deity with good-leaning tendencies.
I think that it would open it up for much more diversity than the "Mr. Lawful Stupid" being the main paladin (the cookie-cutter a lot of people like to play) in any given adventure.
Let's face it: Paladins are mortal, they have their own idiosyncrasies, they aren't perfect, and they have flaws just like any other class or person. I've always felt that they were much too restrictive by most people's standards and that a lot of people (quite a few on these forums) believe that some small acts done (when presented with basically catch-22's) constitute the falling of said paladin if he "doesn't play his alignment" perfectly.
So my question to the rest of you is how would this effect the rest of the game if I had a Paladin of Cayden Cailean who was CG at the table?
Could your table abide having this kind of guy in the group who was a holy warrior?
Would this somehow unbalance the game or break it?
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I would absolutely love to play a Chaotic Good paladin of Cayden Cailean, hot dang.
Hah, me too. I just think it'd open it up for much more fun at the table if the prototypical paladin was a thing of the past and a newer generation of holy warriors was allowed to follow the gods/goddesses. It'd probably make a lot of table run a lot smoother too.
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How would it affect it? Not much beyond giving it some comfort space. Paladin's powers aren't really lawful, in fact the only time the word comes up is in the code of conduct and requirements. Just be sure to switch Axiomatic with Anarchic on the divine bond and you'll be good I think.
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That sounds fine to me, though I will say the personality you describe doesn't sound incompatible with lawful good. After all, slavery is evil, so it's a paladin's duty to stop it even if it's legal.
I made this a while back.
It's a variant alignment system which (among other things) gives paladins a lot more wiggle room, though they remain technically lawful. It also allows for non-evil anti-paladins for the more chaotic/destructively inclined.
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Alignment restrictions (heck, alignment en toto) should go the way of the dodo, IMNSHO.
@Mortuum - Cool thanks for the link. I'm reading it over now.
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Hah, me too. I just think it'd open it up for much more fun at the table if the prototypical paladin was a thing of the past and a newer generation of holy warriors was allowed to follow the gods/goddesses. It'd probably make a lot of table run a lot smoother too.
I'm currently playing the prototypical paladin, the only difference is. No one really respects him anymore. The age of knighthood died a century ago and the man is a Don Quixote inspired nutcase trying to regain his glory.
He's desperately trying to cling to something so unrealistic that most of the time he sanctimoniously defies it anyhow. (The gamemaster lets most of it slide, because he agrees the codes are bogus.)
Yeah thanks I submitted the post early by accident.
Zhayne, at the risk of hijacking the thread, check out that document. It pretty much ditches them. The only ones remaining that I can think of are clerics mustn't oppose their deity and paladins are divided between standard on the lawful side and anti on the chaotic side.
So in the vein of different Paladin alignments, how about a NG Paladin of Gozreh?
I could see someone like this adhering to the faith as almost druid-like. He'd love nature, plants, and animals and absolutely abhor anyone/anything that tries to corrupt any of those things.
I'm sure I could come up many other examples of paladins that follow different deities, but the result would always be the same. They must adhere to their faith's teachings/codes/tenets/dogma above all else. They won't be so conflicted with the "law" as normal paladins get in some circumstances.
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Eldon Guyre was a paladin of Pallas Athena...he was really more NG than LG. He came from the Great Kingdom, in Greyhawk...and a lot of their laws were not particularly good. The closest he ever came to a fall was he never took a vow of chastity...and Athena is very picky about that sort of thing...and he did have one almost affair before he married...a different woman. His first love had actually been snatched from him by death, and he grieved for some time before meeting a beautiful elven woman who he eventually did marry...with Athena's direct approval.
Interestingly enough, the ghost of his first love followed him from shortly after her death...but she didn't haunt him, per se...she actually gave her approval, too. That was a heck of a campaign...so memorable that his name became my default internet nickname.
So, yeah, NG is fine for a paladin, in my book.
Eldon Guyre was a paladin of Pallas Athena...he was really more NG than LG. He came from the Great Kingdom, in Greyhawk...and a lot of their laws were not particularly good. The closest he ever came to a fall was he never took a vow of chastity...and Athena is very picky about that sort of thing...and he did have one almost affair before he married...a different woman. His first love had actually been snatched from him by death, and he grieved for some time before meeting a beautiful elven woman who he eventually did marry...with Athena's direct approval.
Interestingly enough, the ghost of his first love followed him from shortly after her death...but she didn't haunt him, per se...she actually gave her approval, too. That was a heck of a campaign...so memorable that his name became my default internet nickname.
So, yeah, NG is fine for a paladin, in my book.
Very cool, sounds like an amazing campaign. I'm glad to hear that it can work for people to have a paladin who isn't straight up cookie-cutter LG. I'm always one to believe that the best and most memorable characters that I've every played or seen played at my tables have actual personalities and I don't remember the LG paladins very well, I remember the evil necromancer, I remember the CN magus, I remember the LE oracle, I remember the N druid, etc.
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Listen, I don't know what you're trying to insimilate, you, you... fiends! The only paladin is a lawful good paladin! Anybody can worship a god or follow their tenets or what-have-you, but only someone dedicated enough to vow that they will give their life over to a distinct way of living and a very strict code and then uphold that code NO MATTER WHAT can be a paladin.
There's nothing stopping us paladins from worshiping non-lawful-good gods! You can be just as efficient a holy warrior of a Neutral Good deity, like Sarenrae, or a Lawful Neutral one, like Abadar. It's all about the message you're spreading, not how you spread it.
It's like peanut butter. It doesn't matter whether it's chunky, or creamy, or natural or organic, or what the brand name is. We all use the same knife. Metaphorically, of course, as I could never use the same knife that an evil person had touched--too likely to make me fall due to residual evil.
Point is, if you want to start messing around with it, just play a fighter/cleric, or a crusader cleric. PALADINS ARE SPECIAL, DON'T TAKE IT AWAY FROM US. People love to hate us anyway!
*Strides off grumbling about "wannabes"*
Hear hear.
Listen, I don't know what you're trying to insimilate, you, you... fiends! The only paladin is a lawful good paladin! Anybody can worship a god or follow their tenets or what-have-you, but only someone dedicated enough to vow that they will give their life over to a distinct way of living and a very strict code and then uphold that code NO MATTER WHAT can be a paladin.
There's nothing stopping us paladins from worshiping non-lawful-good gods! You can be just as efficient a holy warrior of a Neutral Good deity, like Sarenrae, or a Lawful Neutral one, like Abadar. It's all about the message you're spreading, not how you spread it.
It's like peanut butter. It doesn't matter whether it's chunky, or creamy, or natural or organic, or what the brand name is. We all use the same knife. Metaphorically, of course, as I could never use the same knife that an evil person had touched--too likely to make me fall due to residual evil.
Point is, if you want to start messing around with it, just play a fighter/cleric, or a crusader cleric. PALADINS ARE SPECIAL, DON'T TAKE IT AWAY FROM US. People love to hate us anyway!
*Strides off grumbling about "wannabes"*
That made me chuckle. Good post.
I guess what I'm getting at here is if you look at other classes they aren't as restricted as far as alignment goes. You have the Samurai and Cavalier who join orders and have to strictly adhere to edicts (kind of like paladin codes), but they are allowed to be any alignment they want to be. You have Barbarians who can be any non-lawful, you have monks which are any lawful (except one of their archetypes), but the only two paladins in the game right now are the Anti-Paladin and the normal Paladin which are CE or LG. I'd go so far as to allow Anti-Paladins to be any EVIL alignment as long as they are following an evil deity or a neutral deity with evil tendencies as long as they follow their teachings.
Honestly I've seen people pick up a character sheet, roll up a great paladin and then look closely at what restrictions they have. They then just toss that sheet away and pick a different class because they feel to boxed in by everything that most people associate with being a LG character and specifically a paladin.
I'm not bashing the typical LG Paladin, but I'd like to see a variance at my table and figured that it'd allow more people to play a class that I actually really like.
I'm not bashing the typical LG Paladin, but I'd like to see a variance at my table and figured that it'd allow more people to play a class that I actually really like.
I say go for it. It doesn't hurt the game to give people room to play what they want. I've played games without alignment and it doesn't break anything as far as I can tell. Its actually a lot of fun to see the different sorts of characters that come out, and it helps people feel comfortable playing a monk or paladin when they don't have some terrible looming feeling of dread over their shoulder. I let players create their own code of conduct to help them create a character they want to be, and I get a large variety of characters ranging from anti heroes to perpetually drunk dwarves to really chivalrous paladins.
I'm not bashing the typical LG Paladin, but I'd like to see a variance at my table and figured that it'd allow more people to play a class that I actually really like.I say go for it. It doesn't hurt the game to give people room to play what they want. I've played games without alignment and it doesn't break anything as far as I can tell. Its actually a lot of fun to see the different sorts of characters that come out, and it helps people feel comfortable playing a monk or paladin when they don't have some terrible looming feeling of dread over their shoulder. I let players create their own code of conduct to help them create a character they want to be, and I get a large variety of characters ranging from anti heroes to perpetually drunk dwarves to really chivalrous paladins.
Very cool. I'm going to go ahead and do it the next game I run. I'm getting rid of the paladin alignment restriction of LG and changing it to any good. I'll also do it with the AP's when I run an evil game. It'll be interesting to see if my group has any takers and what they come up with as far as character backgrounds and personalities. I like the idea of letting character also come up with their own codes of conduct, being a flexible GM is something I like to do and something that I personally respect in other people.
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Very cool, sounds like an amazing campaign. I'm glad to hear that it can work for people to have a paladin who isn't straight up cookie-cutter LG. I'm always one to believe that the best and most memorable characters that I've every played or seen played at my tables have actual personalities and I don't remember the LG paladins very well, I remember the evil necromancer, I remember the CN magus, I remember the LE oracle, I remember the N druid, etc.Eldon Guyre was a paladin of Pallas Athena...he was really more NG than LG. He came from the Great Kingdom, in Greyhawk...and a lot of their laws were not particularly good. The closest he ever came to a fall was he never took a vow of chastity...and Athena is very picky about that sort of thing...and he did have one almost affair before he married...a different woman. His first love had actually been snatched from him by death, and he grieved for some time before meeting a beautiful elven woman who he eventually did marry...with Athena's direct approval.
Interestingly enough, the ghost of his first love followed him from shortly after her death...but she didn't haunt him, per se...she actually gave her approval, too. That was a heck of a campaign...so memorable that his name became my default internet nickname.
So, yeah, NG is fine for a paladin, in my book.
He was a blast. The first thing he did in that campaign was to climb up on the temple roof to mend it. I don't know that I've ever played a character that was more humble, at his heart...though he did show off a couple of times.
The biggest thing he ever did was either to vanquish a lesser demon lord, or to found a thriving orphanage...the capital city (where he was born) had a huge problem with street children. With help from those he'd done good for, and a lot of his own sweat, he built the main building on land bequeathed to him in a boon...a large, but mostly simple stone building, with a round tower...and then he began offering the street children a place to live...but they had to work, and learn a trade.
He planted a farm...put up a wall...got a blacksmithy going...all with local men who volunteered their skills so they would have a stable home...and they all got the kids to help as they worked, apprenticing them. He would teach them of Athena, when he had the time...and drill them in self-defense (one of her aspects, at any rate). He was gone from the plane for a good 18 months (where he slew the demon lord...and met his wife...and married her!) and when he came back, the orphanage was not only thriving, it had doubled in size and residents.
I always thought of it as his biggest accomplishment. :)
[...]the orphanage was not only thriving, it had doubled in size and residents.
... not due to his liberal use of a sword, I hope?=)
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Could your table abide having this kind of guy in the group who was a holy warrior?
Yes, I recently played in a campaign with a CG paladin and she was a great character.
Some people don't like the idea, though, you'll want to talk to your group.
Would this somehow unbalance the game or break it?
Nope. The alignment restriction exists for flavour, not for balance.
Could your table abide having this kind of guy in the group who was a holy warrior?Yes, I recently played in a campaign with a CG paladin and she was a great character.
Some people don't like the idea, though, you'll want to talk to your group.
Always mention homebrew or the chance of it showing. Things can go horribly, horribly wrong.
Nope. The alignment restriction exists for flavour, not for balance.
And legacy! I think. If I remember right.
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[...]the orphanage was not only thriving, it had doubled in size and residents.... not due to his liberal use of a sword, I hope?=)
lol...no, the guys I left in charge were decent folk. The number of orphans in that city is just friggin' immense...or it was, the way he ran it. If I had 20 or 25% of 'em, I would be surprised. It had been 20-25, when I left...it was over 40 when I got back...and I'd bet there were an easy 200.
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I seem to recall 3.5 having alternate classes for LE, CE, and CG that were basically paladins with tweaks. My GM often reminisces about "paladins of freedom" that were apparently a thing back when Elves were canonically a CG culture and had their own CG deity.
If I were re-writing Pathfinder, I'd change the paladin's alignment from LG to "any non-neutral" and adjust Detect Evil, Smite Evil, and the paladin's code to compensate.
I do have a hard time imagining a neutral paladin though, even on one axis. What differentiates a paladin from a cleric or a LG cavalier, IMO, is true devotion in every thought and deed. Paladins get their power not so much from a deity, but from dedication so true it grants the paladin divine power as strong as any religion. I just can't see a character with an N on his alignment line putting himself so entirely into his ideals.
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I seem to recall 3.5 having alternate classes for LE, CE, and CG that were basically paladins with tweaks. My GM often reminisces about "paladins of freedom" that were apparently a thing back when Elves were canonically a CG culture and had their own CG deity.
If I were re-writing Pathfinder, I'd change the paladin's alignment from LG to "any non-neutral" and adjust Detect Evil, Smite Evil, and the paladin's code to compensate.
I do have a hard time imagining a neutral paladin though, even on one axis. What differentiates a paladin from a cleric or a LG cavalier, IMO, is true devotion in every thought and deed. Paladins get their power not so much from a deity, but from dedication so true it grants the paladin divine power as strong as any religion. I just can't see a character with an N on his alignment line putting himself so entirely into his ideals.
You recall correctly. :)
Unearthed Arcana...IIRC. ;)
Dragon magazine 310 and 312 also had paladin variants for other alignments, if I remember correctly. Including a neutral aligned one with emphasis on fighting the extreme alignments an elements(again, if I remember correctly). Druids are an example of a neutral divine caster if you had to have one, but I'm not keen on alignment restrictions myself.
Of course, its also easy just to say they can be any good and keep their class features. Easier than forcing an option to destroy a bunch of archetypes or bring up more questions I think.
Could your table abide having this kind of guy in the group who was a holy warrior?Yes, I recently played in a campaign with a CG paladin and she was a great character.
Some people don't like the idea, though, you'll want to talk to your group.
Would this somehow unbalance the game or break it?Nope. The alignment restriction exists for flavour, not for balance.
Glad to hear your CG Paladin was a great character. I hope that when I run my next game and allow them that I'll get someone to play the alternative type such as that.
My group is pretty open to a lot of house-rules so I don't think this will be a problem for them as long as I tell them up front that it's an option and I have a small handout for how the paladin codes will work based off of each deity.
I seem to recall 3.5 having alternate classes for LE, CE, and CG that were basically paladins with tweaks. My GM often reminisces about "paladins of freedom" that were apparently a thing back when Elves were canonically a CG culture and had their own CG deity.
If I were re-writing Pathfinder, I'd change the paladin's alignment from LG to "any non-neutral" and adjust Detect Evil, Smite Evil, and the paladin's code to compensate.
I do have a hard time imagining a neutral paladin though, even on one axis. What differentiates a paladin from a cleric or a LG cavalier, IMO, is true devotion in every thought and deed. Paladins get their power not so much from a deity, but from dedication so true it grants the paladin divine power as strong as any religion. I just can't see a character with an N on his alignment line putting himself so entirely into his ideals.
I can see that playing a NG Paladin or NE Anti-Paladin as being probably the hardest choices, but I would really research each of the deities that they could play and put together some strict codes/tenets for each that they should be striving to adhere to, just like a normal LG paladin or CE anti-paladin. As long as they follow their deity's codes they should be fine, but if they continually stray from them they'd risk falling and losing their god-granted powers.
I used to only support LG paladins, but ever since reading about published paladin codes that were 'show no mercy to your enemies' and seeing more 'your alignment means you can't care about <x>', I just can't bring myself to worry about alignment restrictions. Go nuts!
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I can see that playing a NG Paladin or NE Anti-Paladin as being probably the hardest choices, but I would really research each of the deities that they could play and put together some strict codes/tenets for each that they should be striving to adhere to, just like a normal LG paladin or CE anti-paladin. As long as they follow their deity's codes they should be fine, but if they continually stray from them they'd risk falling and losing their god-granted powers.I seem to recall 3.5 having alternate classes for LE, CE, and CG that were basically paladins with tweaks. My GM often reminisces about "paladins of freedom" that were apparently a thing back when Elves were canonically a CG culture and had their own CG deity.
If I were re-writing Pathfinder, I'd change the paladin's alignment from LG to "any non-neutral" and adjust Detect Evil, Smite Evil, and the paladin's code to compensate.
I do have a hard time imagining a neutral paladin though, even on one axis. What differentiates a paladin from a cleric or a LG cavalier, IMO, is true devotion in every thought and deed. Paladins get their power not so much from a deity, but from dedication so true it grants the paladin divine power as strong as any religion. I just can't see a character with an N on his alignment line putting himself so entirely into his ideals.
Here's the thing: you seem to imply that in your games, Paladins are getting their powers specifically from a deity. That's not how I play them, and that's why I struggle with the image of a neutral paladin.
I always pictured paladins as being empowered not by an outside divinity, but by their own strength of conviction. If the gods draw power from the faith of their followers, then a paladin is someone who has so much faith in his own idealogy that it manifests as a sort of "self-contained religion". Thus, if you're neutral and therefore not strongly dedicated to an ideal, then you just don't have the "spark" that leads you to paladinship. You end up a Fighter, or a Cleric, or a Cavalier instead.
Paladins who fall at my tables do so not because a deity disapproved of their actions, but because they had a crisis of faith, or compromised their dedication, or saw hypocrisy in their actions. Their "fall" is really just a manifestation of their own self-doubt. (This also handily explains why Lawful Stupidity and making Wisdom your dump-stat go hand in hand.)
Dragon magazine 310 and 312 also had paladin variants for other alignments, if I remember correctly. Including a neutral aligned one with emphasis on fighting the extreme alignments an elements(again, if I remember correctly). Druids are an example of a neutral divine caster if you had to have one, but I'm not keen on alignment restrictions myself.
Of course, its also easy just to say they can be any good and keep their class features. Easier than forcing an option to destroy a bunch of archetypes or bring up more questions I think.
They were way overpowered relative to the Paladin and Anti-Paladin, but here they are:
Myrikhan - NG rangery paladin. FE...EVIL. +1/+1 Th/dmg evil/level.
Garath - CG Church guardian paladin
Lyan - OMFG nasty-powerful LN paladin. d12's, awesome spell list, +1/+1 th/dmg per level vs chaotics...and 500k xp to advance a level past 10th.
Paramander - TN manipulative theif-paladin, plays the alignments against one another.
Paramandyer - FM 'extinguisher of extreme alignments' assassin of paladins. Foe of all extreme alignments, in death there is balance.
Faran - CN barbarous tribal protector paladin. Non-tribal people are little more then intelligent beasts.
Illrigger - "unholy shiznit these guys are nasty ' assassin paladins knights. Stealth, armor, wizard and cleric spells, assasin kill %.
Aarikhan - NE hunt down and kill everyone anti-ranger paladins. Basically the anti-myrikhan.
These classes were nominally balanced by armor restrictions and xp required to advance. Lyans were the most expensive class to level that was ever published in 1E.
and I never understood why the Garaths were CG church guardians. CG doesn't seem to be the 'wait around and protect' alignment.
Paramandyers were cool. The story for the article is a little snip of a paladin riding out to confront an anti-paladin, only to make it to his keep and find the bastard strung up with the sigil of the paramandyer Fein inscribed on his armor...and knowing that Fein is going to come looking for him next...
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BTW, the alignment restriction on paladins is still one of their balance attributes. But because it's so hard to define mechanically, most people tend to ignore it.
It's the most restrictive of all alignments to play. Even with 'exceptions' for special circumstances built in, a LG paladin still operates under considerably more of an onus then any NG character. That simple restriction of not being able to undertake certain actions because of your class is indeed one of the balancing characteristics of the paladin, and that is why he gets so much Good Stuff.
LG needs all the help it can get!
Also, everyone seems to be forgetting that the Blackguard PrC is basically an anti-paladin of any evil alignment for those with the means.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, I play my paladins as "holy warriors" of their gods. I've never played them otherwise and my group does the same, so for this thought experiment lets go with that as the standard rather than a paladin who gains his divine powers from his ideals.
I've bolded where I get my thought-process on them.
Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and law-bringers, paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve. In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness, these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them in their quests: powers to banish evil, heal the innocent, and inspire the faithful. Although their convictions might lead them into conflict with the very souls they would save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to bring about a brighter future.
Again, bolded for where my thought process for them comes into play.
Although it is a rare occurrence, paladins do sometimes stray from the path of righteousness. Most of these wayward holy warriors seek out redemption and forgiveness for their misdeeds, regaining their powers through piety, charity, and powerful magic. Yet there are others, the dark and disturbed few, who turn actively to evil, courting the dark powers they once railed against in order to take vengeance on their former brothers. It’s said that those who climb the farthest have the farthest to fall, and antipaladins are living proof of this fact, their pride and hatred blinding them to the glory of their forsaken patrons.
Antipaladins become the antithesis of their former selves. They make pacts with fiends, take the lives of the innocent, and put nothing ahead of their personal power and wealth. Champions of evil, they often lead armies of evil creatures and work with other villains to bring ruin to the holy and tyranny to the weak. Not surprisingly, paladins stop at nothing to put an end to such nefarious antiheroes.
As an aside, I wouldn't stop someone from playing a self-divine paladin if they could come up with a good back-story and some good codes of conduct and strictly adhere to them, I just like being able to take the deity codes from the Faiths of Purity in particular and be able to say to the players that they can read up on their deities and hit the road running.
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I actually made a rough draft of alternate paladins (like so many others) a while back.
I ended up calling them "Champions" instead, and while they need a bit more tweaking, you can skim them here: Rough Draft: Champions.
BTW, the alignment restriction on paladins is still one of their balance attributes. But because it's so hard to define mechanically, most people tend to ignore it.
Pretty sure there's a statement by SKR that states otherwise somewhere. Fluff doesn't balance mechanics. It shapes the character definitely, but it does not balance the class very well.
Are you sure those are the classes in 310/12? I was thinking of a 3.x gig. I certainly don't have the magazines on me to double check. I know those classes were mentioned somewhere, but I was thinking there was a neutral one that got an elemental mount or something.
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Those are the Dragon Magazine paladins all right. I had that issue and I memorized them along ago. I think you can still find them online.
SKR is right. Fluff doesn't balance mechanics, but the paladin's fluff has always been an integral part of the character. In his case, the restriction on actions does a good job justifying the powers he gets.
Anti-paladin players are always annoyed because the paladin gets to use his lay on hands as a swift action, and for them it's a standard action. They are totally overlooking the fact they can use poison, bribes, blackmail, murder, lie, cheat, steal, kidnap, loot, rape and pillage, all of which can be extremely potent in-game tactics to use...and the paladin cannot do the same, because of his alignment.
It's there for a reason.
I don't have a problem with non-LG paladins, but they should marginally less and less powerful as you move away from that restrictive LG alignment. People want to have their cake and eat it, too, and that's what NG and CG paladin types want.
===Aelryinth
Mr. Sin, you might be thinking of Monte Cook's Champion classes from his Arcana Evolved setting. They were quite paladinesque, and as I recall they did get some crazy mounts.
I also think there was a 4E paladin class that got some elemental mounts, but I'm hardly a 4E expert.
==Aelryinth
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Glad to hear your CG Paladin was a great character. I hope that when I run my next game and allow them that I'll get someone to play the alternative type such as that.
My group is pretty open to a lot of house-rules so I don't think this will be a problem for them as long as I tell them up front that it's an option and I have a small handout for how the paladin codes will work based off of each deity.
For clarity - not my CG paladin, my friend's CG paladin. And sounds like you've got a handle on the communication part of the deal.
I do have a hard time imagining a neutral paladin though, even on one axis. What differentiates a paladin from a cleric or a LG cavalier, IMO, is true devotion in every thought and deed. Paladins get their power not so much from a deity, but from dedication so true it grants the paladin divine power as strong as any religion. I just can't see a character with an N on his alignment line putting himself so entirely into his ideals.
I've come to see the characters with one 'N' as the extremists - a LG character is drawn between two ideals and can never fully devote him/herself to either (the occasional Law vs Good dilemna). It is possible for a NG character to be all good, all the time, or for a LN character to only care about the law.
I always pictured paladins as being empowered not by an outside divinity, but by their own strength of conviction. If the gods draw power from the faith of their followers, then a paladin is someone who has so much faith in his own idealogy that it manifests as a sort of "self-contained religion". Thus, if you're neutral and therefore not strongly dedicated to an ideal, then you just don't have the "spark" that leads you to paladinship. You end up a Fighter, or a Cleric, or a Cavalier instead.
Paladins who fall at my tables do so not because a deity disapproved of their actions, but because they had a crisis of faith, or compromised their dedication, or saw hypocrisy in their actions. Their "fall" is really just a manifestation of their own self-doubt.
That's my take as well. However, I could see a TN Paladin who is empowered by conviction - it just wouldn't be conviction in an ideal that could be represented by alignment. For example, a Paladin of Knowledge.
SKR is right. Fluff doesn't balance mechanics, but the paladin's fluff has always been an integral part of the character. In his case, the restriction on actions does a good job justifying the powers he gets.
Anti-paladin players are always annoyed because the paladin gets to use his lay on hands as a swift action, and for them it's a standard action. They are totally overlooking the fact they can use poison, bribes, blackmail, murder, lie, cheat, steal, kidnap, loot, rape and pillage, all of which can be extremely potent in-game tactics to use...and the paladin cannot do the same, because of his alignment.
It's there for a reason.
That reason is the fluff. That's what SKR meant by "fluff shouldn't balance mechanics, and vice-versa." If you think that the LG fluff is an integral part of the paladin, that is fine, but that isn't the same as it being a balance factor. The alignment restriction can justify the powers from a story/worldbuilding POV, but it doesn't justify making a class mechanically weaker or stronger.
Sometimes making bad tactical decisions is part of RP. Doesn't mean that every character who makes bad tactical decisions for RP or decides that their character follows a code of conduct should get stronger versions of their class features. You don't need to give me extra pluses to make me want to play LG or any other alignment, and I won't bribe my players in that way. If you refuse to blackmail, murder, lie, cheat, etc then you get a reputation for having good moral character, not a Quickened class feature.
And I'm pretty sure Anti-Paladins can't Touch of Corruption as a swift because it was written as an offensive ability - the paladin's swift LoH only works to target the paladin. Probably an oversight that an undead Anti-Paladin can't self-heal as a swift.
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So my question to the rest of you is how would this effect the rest of the game if I had a Paladin of Cayden Cailean who was CG at the table?
** spoiler omitted **
Could your table abide having this kind of guy in the group who was a holy warrior?
Would this somehow unbalance the game or break it?
I wouldn't like it personally.
I mean... honestly, there's nothing in your character description that COULDN'T be a Paladin of LG... I'm playing a Paladin of Sarenrae and frankly I think they'd be good buddies. Depending of course on how you 'Love to Drink'... Thaddeus has no problem with a couple drinks, but he refuses to get drunk. In my mind, Drunk leads to lowered inhibitions and lowered inhibitions lead to code of conduct violations that a sober paladin would never make. But yeah, nothing in the paladin code that requires 'unhappy' Paladins who don't have any wanderlust....
In MY opinion... I do not like the term 'Paladin' tossed around to every alignment. in MY opinion it should be 'Special' Unique amongst only the mot trustworthy and reliable people in the game.
If someone is a Paladin, then their word should be GOLDEN... their code sets them above reproach... Neutral characters.. .Evil Characters.. Even the CG and NG characters.. they have more wiggle room in what they say or how they act.
A peasant isn't going to think too highly of a LG Paladin who come riding into town to save the day... if last month an Evil Paladin Burned his farm and a CG paladin ran off with his wife...
The term 'Paladin' loses all meaning if EVERYONE can call themselves that.
Champions... holy warriors... sure, I have no particular issue with that.
But I would hate for it to become like the current 'cop shows,' There are so much glorifing the 'dirty cops' or the vigilanites or the powerhungry psychos... that the average person does not LIKE Police anymore. They don't TRUST them...
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Can always try these.
AD&D "Plethora of Paladins" Conversion to PF
On a side note, I think Paladins should only be Paladins, variants NEED to have different names to differentiate them. They can be refered to as paladin variants, but never called a NG Paladin or CN paladin, creates way too much confusion. Paladins are LG, other variants have their own names, whatever they might be.
I rarely see people call themselves by their class's name in character. Out of character its much easier to say your a paladin than say "Honorary Holy Warrior of the head priest of Saranrae". I think people get too attached to names sometimes. A name only has so much meaning as you give it sometimes.
On a side note, I think Paladins should only be Paladins, variants NEED to have different names to differentiate them. They can be referred to as paladin variants, but never called a NG Paladin or CN paladin, creates way too much confusion. Paladins are LG, other variants have their own names, whatever they might be.
I can see your point of view, mine differs obviously. I believe that if I house-rule that Paladins/Anti-Paladins aren't restricted by alignment other than the Neutral (LN, CN, & TN ones) they could strictly adhere to codes as prescribed by the deity that they follow, of course they'd be different than the standard LG Paladin or CE Anti-Paladin, but that's adding more flavor to my game world I think.
Paladin, at least to me, means Holy Warrior or Unholy Warrior in the case of an AP.
Can a regular fighter be of these alignments and follow similar codes?
Sure, but he hasn't actually devoted his life to his deity and basically formed a pact with them to uphold their codes/tenets/dogma. This is where they'd really differ and if that Paladin or Holy Warrior turned against his deity he'd become a normal warrior without any boons from his god.
Great discussion so far, I'm enjoying reading everyone's opinions on how they'd do things and the links to what others have tried or considered doing.
To me, a Paladin is just a Cleric with thicker armor, bigger weapons, and weaker spellcasting. LG should be an option, not a requirement. If you don't like non-LG paladins, don't play one as a player, or ban them at your table as a DM.
Honestly, if I ever run PF, I'm probably going to ban the Paladin and point to the Cleric's various archetypes like Crusader.
I wouldn't ever ban the Paladin from my table, they are too different from Clerics to do something like that. They are a unique class all to their own, I just don't care for the alignment system dictating everything for a paladin. I'd rather their codes be based more off of their deity codes/tenets/dogma rather than "this is LG and how it's always supposed to be played."
I prefer the good side of the paladin as opposed to the lawful side being the driving factor in what they do. I've always played mine as "the greater good" type and if I have to break a law or two I do it. I don't want to be dinged and become fallen for doing something like that and I know a lot of other players feel the same way when presented with some of the moral dilemmas that are often the start of paladin alignment threads on these boards.
There's currently a huge debate going on that's like 700 posts which originally got me thinking about this and posting about the additional alignments for Paladins to free them from that kind of thinking/restrictions.
Honestly, if I ever run PF, I'm probably going to ban the Paladin and point to the Cleric's various archetypes like Crusader.
Crusader cleric is not a paladin. It does not have passive auras, a divine bond, or full BAB. Also smite.
Yes, but the Paladin is too wrapped up in alignment. As I'll be removing alignment completely, it's easier to just toss it out than rebuild it from the bottom up.
Plus, frankly, I haven't seen anybody play a Paladin in a game in over a decade. Around these parts, it won't be missed.
To me, a Paladin is just a Cleric with thicker armor, bigger weapons, and weaker spellcasting.
if I ever run PF, I'm probably going to ban the Paladin
Please do. Seriously. If you have no feeling for the Paladin "vibe", then GMing for one is going to end in tears.
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To me, a Paladin is just a Cleric with thicker armor, bigger weapons, and weaker spellcasting.if I ever run PF, I'm probably going to ban the PaladinPlease do. Seriously. If you have no feeling for the Paladin "vibe", then GMing for one is going to end in tears.
I agree. Whether you're attached to LG paladins or want to see other alignments, most people I've talked with agree that a paladin is not just a cleric with more melee and less casting.
On a side note, I think Paladins should only be Paladins, variants NEED to have different names to differentiate them. They can be refered to as paladin variants, but never called a NG Paladin or CN paladin, creates way too much confusion. Paladins are LG, other variants have their own names, whatever they might be.
In my upcoming game I'm strongly considering calling the class "Champion" and making Paladins the official in-world title for the LG variant, which is the most culturally significant (the LG god of valour and the sun loves his paladins).
i personally see paladins as worriors and servants of their faiths. While a cleric is expected to spread the words of his duty, a paladin is there to enforce it. Every religion should be allowed a (un)holy order of paladins.
A paladiins alignment should match his deity exactly. Want to be a paladin of cayden? have fun drinking and saving slaves. Abadar? Root out corruption in mercantile leagues and criminals in general. Nethys? Be bi-polar.
All religions have goals, as a Paladin it is your duty to protect the memberss of your faith and to accomplish the will of your deity. In a way, your relationship with your deity should be closer and more personal then that of a cleric and his god
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Looking into the paladin variants in the Dragon 310 issue, these are what they have going for them:
I personally like the idea of paladins with "any good" as their alignment restriction, instead of just Lawful Good. I think if they had "Any Good", more people would play a paladin.
Looking into the paladin variants in the Dragon 310 issue, these are what they have going for them
Hey, those are the ones I was talking about earlier! I think the paramander and its kin were from issue 110. I've only got notes on them for reference. 312 has the anti-paladin, despot, and corrupter then.