Hey guys. I had a character concept, that I posted off yonder in the recruitment thread(technically not the right place for it, but I couldn't really -find- a place for it), that was as follows:
Hi. A few things, before I get into this: I have no idea if this is lore breaking, I tried to keep in the spirit of the big red guy, but I have no idea if what I'm doing is total sacrilege. In any case, I don't expect many bites for this guy since he is a bit 'speshul'. This is fine, nobody should have to take in a character that they aren't comfortable with, or that messes with the lore too much.
And actually, after rereading the Tiefling rules, it seems that this guy would just be a kind of Tiefling variant. In any case, my earlier little disclaimer thing still stands.
Also, I really love tales of redemption, of a former villain trying to do good, or someone with a bloody history trying to make up for the actions of his family, or his ancestors. The atoner is just all kinds of awesome to me.
So, I had the idea for an adventurer that is essentially the son of Asmodeus(whether he's an only child and thus special, or if Asmodeus does this all the time and there are all sorts of illegitimate spawn out there, that's up to the DM probably.). He doesn't like the fact that he is, and so he practically lives in taverns and bars. I also picture him as working sorts of odd jobs around whatever city we're in, whether as a legbreaker for local loan sharks, or a dock worker, that kind of thing. And I picture him as, while not a particularly lawful citizen, he's kind of the local "good guy" to the barflies, and the less strict guards. Like, he knows them on a first name basis, the bartenders all know what he likes, etc etc etc.
As to his origin, I actually thought of something while sleeping last night: Picture a couple, for some reason unable to have children. For medical reasons, or magical reasons, maybe one or both of them were cursed, or something like that. So, they go to Asmodeus. And Asmodeus writes up a contract, but negates to show them the fine print, that says they don't get to say who the child's father is. Boom, casts some curse on the wannabe-father's fellas, and they have my character. Character is quickly dumped at an orphanage, where he grew up to basically resent authority. Unusually, he also resented the abuse of that authority, and basically always tried to stand up for the downtrodden.
This carries over into his work as a legbreaker, where he just talks to the regulars and tries to convince them to just quit gambling or otherwise borrowing money they can't pay back. One of the regulars, with a very cute family, is in deep. Like, five thousand gold deep. This is bad to my character, and boom, temporary quest hook. Not bad, right?
Stat-wise, I actually just retooled the Tiefling class to give him +2 strength and con, instead of +2 Dex and Int. Class, why rock the boat? Make him a fighter, because I really like the idea of him with a flail, just a big iron ball on a dull chain. It's a cool visual to me.
So yeah, he's a taaad unusual, but I liked him. Be warned, although I worked hard to make him as original as I could, he is basically a mixture of Hellboy, Marv(from Sin City) and The Goon. You know, what with there being nothing new under the sun and all.
So, what do you guys think? Is this completely horrible? Would he be doable for someone's campaign?
Now, I'm wondering, is any of this at all possible, given the setting, and the characters involved, and all that? And if it is possible, is it a likely scenario? In your opinion, should I replace 'Asmodeus' with 'general unnamed or just not as important Devil'?
You would need to find a very generous DM to allow you to swap Dex and Int for Str and Con. You are just basically cherry picking the abilities you want for your fighter. That's on top of playing a tiefling, which is not universally allowed.
As far as origins go, usually if a deity directly has a son, that would be a demi-god. If an outsider directly has a son, that would be half-celestial or half-fiend template (well above the power level of a player character). Tiefling and aasimar characters generally have an unknown outsider somewhere in their distant past, many generations back. And the traits have lain dormant for all those generations.
Backstory-wise, there is nothing wrong with yours.
In short, if someone lets you play this at their table... you should enjoy it. I wouldn't allow it, and I don't think of myself as very restrictive. Best of luck!
Yeah, but the Half-Fiend(and Half-Celestial) templates are so overpowered. Surely my race idea is basically just like 3.5's version of a Half-Orc, stats-wise?
I play a Dwarf Paladin. Believe me when I tell you, I would very much prefer if the +2 Wis was +2 Str instead. And I would love to move the -2 Cha to -2 Int, as that stat isn't super important to me. Since I can heal myself as a swift action, this +2 to Con isn't that important, so let's just shift it over onto my now unmodified Cha.
So, my Dwarf's stats are +2 Str, +2 Cha, -2 Int. Shouldn't be a problem, right? Except that's not a Dwarf.
There are alternative Tieflings in Blood of Fiends. You can reference them at this link.
The standard for any Player Character Race, is +2 to a physical stat, +2 to a mental stat, -2 to one stat. Races that vary from this, have drawbacks to mitigate the increase in power. Switching that to +2 to two physical stats significantly increases the power of a race that is already on the high end for Player Character available races.
Once again, you are simply cherry picking the things you want. Humans, Half-Elves, and Half-Orcs have a single floating +2 you can add to the ability of your choice. Hellboy flavor is optional.
Hmm, maybe you're right. Maybe I should move the Con over to Wisdom. Thanks.
"So, my Dwarf's stats are +2 Str, +2 Cha, -2 Int. Shouldn't be a problem, right? Except that's not a Dwarf."
Yeah, but isn't that stereotyping? Why do all Dwarves have pluses to strength?
Actually no Dwarves get racial bonuses to strength. They get +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha. And, no, there is no stereotyping, if that term is even applicable to fictional race in a fantasy game. Not all Dwarves are the same. If I built a Dwarf wizard, he would look very, very different from my paladin.
All of that aside, you are trying to create flavor and then apply the stats you want to that flavor. There is nothing wrong with that. Except it is not Pathfinder. You want GURPS.
Build it if you want to. It would not be allowed at my table. Probably would not be allowed at most. That's just my guess.
"Except it is not Pathfinder"
Isn't anything Pathfinder if it's done for a Pathfinder game, as evidenced by the Homebrew and Conversion boards?
Anyway, thanks for your help man. :D
"Except it is not Pathfinder"
Isn't anything Pathfinder if it's done for a Pathfinder game, as evidenced by the Homebrew and Conversion boards?
Anyway, thanks for your help man. :D
Pathfinder is set of rules. You are saying you deliberately intend to change or ignore those rules to build your character. So, yes and no. Everyone can houserule and it is still Pathfinder, in a sense.
Building a concept to fit the rules vs. building the rules to fit the concept. There is nothing wrong with GURPS. It just does what you are wanting to do.
Either way, I hope you find a group and game you can enjoy!
Maybe I should just make a new race instead of trying to call it a Tiefling? Is that the general objection to the concept? I'm only using the Tiefling because it mainly accomplishes what I'm going for, aside from some pesky stat problems.
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I agree with The Crusader. There's nothing wrong per se with your character, and you might find a DM that will welcome you. I am not that strict myself, but I have to say I wouldn't.
Your concept would work, but being Asmodeus' son would make you a Half-Fiend, not a thiefling.
And it's not stereotyping, even with +2 Dex and Int you could dump Dex and end with someone who's barely average.
Think of a cat. They're naturally more agile and dexterous than dogs. You could have a really clumsy cat, but it'd still be a little less clumsy than the clumsiest dog.
(Example not at all inspired by the cat just trying to jump to the table, landing on a piece of paper, slipping across it and falling off said table.)
Is there any way to make a Half-Fiend not that supremely powerful? I couldn't in good conscience actually use that template for any game that wasn't already high powered.
Maybe I should just make a new race instead of trying to call it a Tiefling? Is that the general objection to the concept? I'm only using the Tiefling because it mainly accomplishes what I'm going for, aside from some pesky stat problems.
I don't object to the concept of the character. But, just like most characters, the stat bonuses aren't going to fall exactly where you might prefer. Otherwise, every wizard ever built would have +4 to Int, every cleric would have +2 Wis and +2 Cha, and every barbarian would have +2 Str and +2 Con.
You want to build a Tiefling fighter. That's fine. Most DM's accept Tieflings as player races, including me. But, you get Tiefling stats. You can still make a really good, memorable fighter with the Tiefling's racial bonuses. Just like with my Dwarf Paladin, who doesn't have ideal racial modifiers for a paladin. You don't have to have bonuses on the exact best abilities for your concept to work.
But, once you start in with player made races or houseruled multiple floating bonuses along with the other racial abilities, etc., you're going to find it very hard to get a DM to accept your character. Why wouldn't anyone just invent their own race to get the modifiers they want?
This is not a "love it or get out!" kind of statement. I was really just informing you that there is a rules system that allows you to assign the stats and modifiers you want to the concept of your choice, where all options are basically modular. That is GURPS. You can play GURPS in any Campaign Setting, including Golarion (Pathfinder), if that is what your DM and group are doing.
Otherwise, you will need a very permissive DM.
Hmm. The other problem with the Half-Fiend is finding a way around that 'Evil' alignment.
Stepping back from the stats/rules discussion, my interpretation of the Golarion version of Asmodeus is that he's very contemptuous of mortals. Also, everything he does is part of a plan within a plan. So, why would he debase himself by fornicating with a mortal? It better be a darn good reason and, if the PC's trajectory started to undermine that plan, why wouldn't he dispatch a few devils to eliminate his "mistake"?
So, personally, I don't see that working, but that's my own take on Asmodeus having read Faiths of Corruption and vol. 1 of Book of the Damned. I've never had a deep conversation with anyone about it, so take it for what it's worth (likely little).
"Also, everything he does is part of a plan within a plan. So, why would he debase himself by fornicating with a mortal?"
I thought of that, which is why I don't think he did. Rather, it was the husband who did the business, the proper DNA was just...replaced, through magic or what have you.
Devil Spawn Tiefling get +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha.
With a 20 Point Buy, you could get:
STR 18
DEX 10
CON 14+2=16
INT 8
WIS 10+2=12
Cha 10-2=8
Not min-maxed at all, and still a really good fighter. Put a heavy flail in his hand with power attack and he'll get +4 ATK with 1d10+9 DMG at level 1.
I'm not sure why you can't just work with the stats that exist for the race that applies to the character concept you've come up with...
The Crusader has it right. See, most people see the +2 to stats and think that you have to focus those. When really, you can simply use them to shore up lower stats and put your 18 into what you really want. In Crusader's case, it was Strength, with Wisdom being shored up a bit by the dwarf's Wisdom bonus.
Y'know what...that's a good idea.
Also if you're a bit worried about the whole "Son of Asmodeus" thing being OP because you'd technically be a half fiend, take note of Council of Thieves.
I would probably allow it. I would probably work with you on your tiefling varient.
As to you being the Son of Asmodeus....How would you ract to a GM saying...
"It is perfectly acceptable for your character to believe that....rather it is true or not time will tell."
I am a big believer in a PC not knowing the whole truth. I would probably run with it in some way...maybe you are the spawn of Asmodeus...maybe you are not. Maybe you will never learn the actual truth.
@ John: Hey, I'd be cool with that. Maybe he was just told that by one of the more superstitious of nuns, or maybe his father isn't nearly as powerful as he originally thought. Long as I'm big, red, and wreck people's s(p)it with a big flail, it's all good.
Personally I'd aim a bit lower in the infernal hierachy, I find less is more in a story all too often. Pick an archdevil that has a more interesting dominion that suits your character in some way.
Belial is quite lustful for a devil and a likely candidate, Mamon's focus is on greed etc.
As for the half-fiend stuff, that is not an issue, you can easily be a son in a much more symbolic sense, a man possessed by Belial might have seduced one of the local nuns/priestesses of the local church for instance, the events likely tailored so to cause great damage to the faith. While not a direct child of Belial it very much was Belial's actions that conceived you.
AO: That's actually a pretty good idea.
And Wycen, I like the look of those classes. When I actually have more money, I'm gonna pick up a ton of Pathfinder/Paizo stuff.
Power level wise... perhaps he is just a teifling for now. Perhaps his father has locked away his 'real' power until hes earned it. (Aka end of campaign)
Asmodeus has enough trouble with heralds turning against him, I imagine he'd take even further precautions with an actual son