A player presented this to me, and so far it seems legit: the two mysteries (lore oracle's Sidestep Secret and the nature oracle's Nature's Whispers) allow you to use your CHA for AC instead of DEX (as well as reflex saves for lore and CMD for nature), and osyluth's guile adds a dodge bonus equal to your CHA to AC when fighting defensively. since both are different types of bonus (one being the "DEX" bonus, and the other being a dodge bonus) It seems like they can stack.
Anyone else found any weird combos like this elsewhere?
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Paladin/Lore Oracle can have Charisma to Reflex x2, if you have the Noble Scion of War feat (making Initiative into a charisma check) then anything that modifies charisma checks e.g. Circlet of Persuasion will also increase initiative.
Now if only I was allowed to use the Charming the Arrow feat from 3e then I'd be able to make one beast of a Paladin archer
Actually I remember the paladin CHA-centric bit (made one in the guide to the builds thread--found out two weeks later that damocles guile'd done it a month before in a differnt thread, much to my disappointment).
Therefore you can triple dip Cha for reflex saves, legally. :D
Goodness gracious.
Dot in case my next character is charisma based.
A player presented this to me, and so far it seems legit: the two mysteries (lore oracle's Sidestep Secret and the nature oracle's Nature's Whispers) allow you to use your CHA for AC instead of DEX (as well as reflex saves for lore and CMD for nature), and osyluth's guile adds a dodge bonus equal to your CHA to AC when fighting defensively. since both are different types of bonus (one being the "DEX" bonus, and the other being a dodge bonus) It seems like they can stack.
Anyone else found any weird combos like this elsewhere?
Its actually triple-dipping once you Smite...
all this goes to show that oracle/paladins are incredibly SAD.
grab decent str/dex for your preferred combat distance, middling con, and crank up CHA as high as you can get it.
eesh, that's pretty nuts.
|
It has been stated by one of Paizo staff (do not remember which one though) that it does not work, because when two bonuses come from the same ability (let's say CHA), they do not stack (even untyped bonuses).
Hmm. I'd want to see a source for that. Seems too reflexively oh no! can't let players have their cool tricks! — I mean, Sidestep Secret + Divine Grace and Sidestep Secret + Smite Evil are neat (and powerful!) combinations, but hardly looks like something that must be crushed!. Don't want to ruin the fun of the thread just yet.
Plus, surely there are abilities somewhere in the PF system that simply let you double the contribution a certain stat has to a certain bonus. Nothing springs to mind, but I'd be surprised if there weren't a couple cases.
It has been stated by one of Paizo staff (do not remember which one though) that it does not work, because when two bonuses come from the same ability (let's say CHA), they do not stack (even untyped bonuses).
Can you give the exact text or quote? I thought that was only in the case of something replacing something twice.
Actually I remember the paladin CHA-centric bit (made one in the guide to the builds thread--found out two weeks later that damocles guile'd done it a month before in a differnt thread, much to my disappointment).
Where was this? Sounds interesting.
|
|
For reference on my interest in this thread, here's the latest version of the Bard / Oracle / Paladin build I've been poking at. I haven't settled the build yet, though; looking forward to using some of the suggestions here for the next draft.
Also: +1 to Skeletal Steve's question.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
James Jacobs' take on adding several times the bonus from a single ability :
The FAQed threads dealing with it (on the topic of Fury's Fall) that were answered with "No reply required"
Note that no precise answer were given by Paizo in these threads. So we can only try to guess what the correct answer to the FAQ is :-(
I do not agree with JJ's point and I will definitely houserule this to allow the bonus to stack, if only to make sense that a character taking two feats should be better than the one who only takes one.
But the Paizo's take on the RAW seems a closed case.
Actually I remember the paladin CHA-centric bit (made one in the guide to the builds thread--found out two weeks later that damocles guile'd done it a month before in a differnt thread, much to my disappointment).Where was this? Sounds interesting.
link here (my updated version)
here (my older version)
and the one that I discovered later by Damocles Guile (which is dated to before mine, hence why i'm giving credit) here
|
|
James Jacobs' take on adding several times the bonus from a single ability :
The FAQed threads dealing with it (on the topic of Fury's Fall) that were answered with "No reply required"
Note that no precise answer were given by Paizo in these threads. So we can only try to guess what the correct answer to the FAQ is :-(
I do not agree with JJ's point and I will definitely houserule this to allow the bonus to stack, if only to make sense that a character taking two feats should be better than the one who only takes one.
But the Paizo's take on the RAW seems a closed case.
Thanks for the links! I'm busy today so won't have time to put it together, but my initial impression is that Sidestep Secret (CHA instead of Dex to AC) + Smite Evil (CHA as deflection modifier to AC) would avoid the Weapon Finesse + Fury's Fall thought. Sidestep Secret + Osyluth Guile might be in more trouble. If I get some time to put together a thorough treatment soon I'll see what I think on more careful reflection. First thing I'll say: core abilities of core classes! can't rule that out! (Pivoting from JJ's "the further you get from the Core...")
@Joe M.: in your bard build you asked about how to get more smites--you can get more via oath of vengeance to trade two uses of LoH for an extra smite. so with a paladin 2 dip, you'd have 1+cha LoH per day, which could give you ~2-3 extra smites per day depending on your cha mod.
.
aimed partially at black raven's comment and then going on a wild tangent: osyluth's guile is typed (dodge) iirc, so it should be safe from overlap with sidestep secret/nature's whispers, as well as smite (deflection). double-cha saves is also probably legit since divine grace is untyped and bestow grace is a sacred bonus--though the cha-reflex replacement for sidestep secret likely wouldn't stack with divine grace in this case (this isn't a problem if you picked nature mystery) since they're both untyped in the same manner as the fury's fall+weapon finesse examples (one replaces the stat used, and one is a typeless bonus equal to that same stat).
people who go with lore may wanna grab extra revelation for:
lore keeper (cha instead of int to knowledge checks),
automatic writing (1/day augury spell with 90% effectiveness)
focused trance (cha/day, 1d6 round "cast" time (during which you get a bonus against gaze/sonic attacks), +20 competence bonus to any int check once cast time is finished--terrible in combat, but great otherwise),
think on it (1/day, reroll a failed knowledge check with a +10 competence bonus tacked on this time)
while people who go with nature mystery may wanna do the same for:
natural divination (spend 10 minutes to choose from various insight/competence bonuses to one check that day, lasts 24 hours and is wasted if not used within that time),
speak with animals (one specific type of your choice--crows and squirrels are pretty omnipresent so you'd get good use out of it, as would horses),
spirit of nature (auto-stabilize when reduced to negative hp while in a natural setting--i.e. anywhere that isn't a city or alternate plane),
trancendental bond (one round 1/day telepathic bond with (cha mod) targets--useful for signalling your team while scouting and such)
nature has more flexibility in semi-useful auxiliary powers to grab via the extra revelation feat, but lore makes for an excellent pokedex (especially on something like a "know-it-all" bard since having all knowledges as class skills, using cha to calculate them, allowing a reroll with a bonus and getting a +20 competence after a short concentration time is some tasty stuff).
.
on that note the revelations add varying extra class skills as well:
nature gets Climb, Fly, Knowledge (nature), Ride, Survival, and Swim,
while lore gets Appraise, Spellcraft, and all Knowledge skills.
so both have their merits.
.
as for sidestep secret vs. nature's whispers: nature's whispers is slightly superior on the build i posted since it covers CMD, whilst sidestep secret's reflex replacement is useless if JJ's posts are to be used as a guideline (i say guideline since he's not a dev and his word isn't RAW strictly speaking).
There is one more instance of this that I know about. Kirin strike and targeted bomb admixture.
Targeted bomb admixture deals base damage plus double your int bonus instead of just your int bonus.
kirin strike lets you spend a swift action to add twice your int modifier to your damage.
Using the two, you deal bomb damage +4x your int in damage. Sounds nice, but then you realize the swift bloat of kirin and you cry.
There is one more instance of this that I know about. Kirin strike and targeted bomb admixture.
Targeted bomb admixture deals base damage plus double your int bonus instead of just your int bonus.
kirin strike lets you spend a swift action to add twice your int modifier to your damage.Using the two, you deal bomb damage +4x your int in damage. Sounds nice, but then you realize the swift bloat of kirin and you cry.
cant you tack mindchemist's crazy int shenanigans onto that as well?
In terms of James Jacobs (non-official ruling) response, it seems like he is saying that the ability to add DEX to your CMB is what is being granted by the feat, not the actual DEX bonus.
In the case mentioned in this post, it seems like a slightly different scenario. Compare a player who has 16 DEX and 18 CHA. With only the feat that adds a CHA bonus to the AC, he would have 17 just from ability scores when fighting defensively. Now taking both feats, should he AC drop to 14 because the CHA only applies once.
What seems to be actually happening is that one is changing the basis of your AC from your fleetness to your charmingness, and then the second adds an additional bonus on top of the base. Otherwise you have a situation where taking two feats could make you worse than just taking one.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sorry guys, but double-dipping the same stat bonus TWICE onto AC is just....stinky cheese.
Personally I wouldnt allow it, but for those players whose GM's DO watch out for a high CHA undead who turns that trick around on you. It will ALMOST CERTAINLY happen eventually.
Hyper-deadly Advanced Graveknight Anti-Paladin/Oracle BBEG, anyone?
Just my humble opinion and 2 C.P.
Carry on.
Weslocke of Phazdaliom
Sorry guys, but double-dipping the same stat bonus TWICE onto AC is just....stinky cheese.
Personally I wouldnt allow it, but for those players whose GM's DO watch out for a high CHA undead who turns that trick around on you. It will ALMOST CERTAINLY happen eventually.
Hyper-deadly Advanced Graveknight Anti-Paladin/Oracle BBEG, anyone?
Just my humble opinion and 2 C.P.
Carry on.
Weslocke of Phazdaliom
minor nitpick: you mean TRIPLE-dipping the same stat bonus to AC (cha from sidestep's replacement, smite (deflect), and osyluth's guile (dodge)).
that said, AC isn't all that important the higher level you go due to the prevalence of higher-end spells (that amazing graveknight laid low by a single heal spell), and getting the full effect requires the appropriate smite target (which isnt all that good to bank on, since not all adventurers are good-aligned) and fighting defensively (so -4 to hit, +2 AC), and bestow grace isnt on the antipaladin list as far as i know, so his saves wont be too stellar (compared to a normal antipaladin, anyway) either. cant take oath of vengeance, so extra smites are off the table as well.
that said, of COURSE it would make for a good BBEG--any build does!
|
throw 2 levels of Monk of Many Styles and get more AC out of your Fighting Defensively... and lower those penlites! by taking Crane Style now not only do you get more AC out of FD but you also get at level 2 Crane Wing which just lets you stop a attack from hitting you completely as long as you have a free hand... and in light armor say some Elven Chain you get evasion... Also don't forget to have at least 3 ranks in Acrobatics to get more AC!
means youve gotta keep a hand free though (which synergizes with using a buckler and keeping your LoH/spells available), which hurts your damage output from 2H+PA and such.
definitely worth consideration, though couldnt one just take the feats without needing the dip? since the monk levels would slow your paladin progression--your spells would come in even later than usual.
A life oracle of mine is using both of these. :)
Plus, if you have a paladin in the party that can cast bestow grace (the spell) you can get your Cha to all saves Twice because the spell provides a sacred bonus. Therefore you can triple dip Cha for reflex saves, legally. :D
How could you Take 2 Misteries? As far I saw in different threads, an Oracle can hace just one Mistery...
How could you Take 2 Misteries? As far I saw in different threads, an Oracle can hace just one Mistery...A life oracle of mine is using both of these. :)
Plus, if you have a paladin in the party that can cast bestow grace (the spell) you can get your Cha to all saves Twice because the spell provides a sacred bonus. Therefore you can triple dip Cha for reflex saves, legally. :D
Pretty sure he's talking about 1 Mystery + Osyluth's Guile.[/threadomancy]
Or you can go Lore/Lunar/Nature Oracle 1, Paladin X, Celestial Obedience (Arshea), and Guile for an effective quad CHA to AC.. I am currently playing a Oracle / Paladin / Mystery Cultist in WotR, before I retrained the Oracle level after realising that my AC was basically unhittable, and this was before I even decided to pick up Guile.
Worth noting Deific Obedience (Calistria), gives you roughly the same thing as Arshea, but is a 3rd level boon vs 2nd level, although if memory serves, Calistria lets you wear armor and still get the bonus.
EDIT
Ugh, old thread.
oh I don't mind personally (it's good to see new options for this kind of thing springing up), but i'm not sure on the board's/mods' stance on necromancy.
i've been toying with a playtest shaman (nature's whispers)/zen archer monk/inquisitor for maximum WIS sadness, but don't have anything worth posting right this second on it.
I am thinking of creating a character who at 1st level is a Lore Oracle with the Noble Scion/Scion of War feat. That character would then take later levels as an Iroran Paladin. The character would get away with dumping dexterity and reducing the armor actually worn as the maximum dexterity limits start kicking in.
If the paladin double dipping the charisma bonus to Reflex works (as confirmed by one of the James Jacobs quotes), then this character should eventually be able to double dip the charisma bonus to AC.
Or you can go Lore/Lunar/Nature Oracle 1, Paladin X, Celestial Obedience (Arshea), and Guile for an effective quad CHA to AC.. I am currently playing a Oracle / Paladin / Mystery Cultist in WotR, before I retrained the Oracle level after realising that my AC was basically unhittable, and this was before I even decided to pick up Guile.
Worth noting Deific Obedience (Calistria), gives you roughly the same thing as Arshea, but is a 3rd level boon vs 2nd level, although if memory serves, Calistria lets you wear armor and still get the bonus.
EDIT
Ugh, old thread.
Not much old. Just reviewed again.
I Guess that you could not use each one of your misteries, because Lore and Nature don't double the CHA do AC, because you are already avoiding your DEX for your AC.
If you don't use DEX, you can't trade it for CHA.
By the Way, Prophetic Armor is the same and they don't stack all of three...
I was looking for stack the Heaven and Nature Mistery.
Just to get one revelation of both.
There is a way?
You obviously misunderstood, it was either of those Mysteries rather than all three at once ._.
You obviously misunderstood, it was either of those Mysteries rather than all three at once ._.
Ok. Thanks... I'm not an English main speaker, so many times I don't recognize humor sentences... lol...
I am thinking of creating a character who at 1st level is a Lore Oracle with the Noble Scion/Scion of War feat. That character would then take later levels as an Iroran Paladin. The character would get away with dumping dexterity and reducing the armor actually worn as the maximum dexterity limits start kicking in.
If the paladin double dipping the charisma bonus to Reflex works (as confirmed by one of the James Jacobs quotes), then this character should eventually be able to double dip the charisma bonus to AC.
Just remember that Scion of War and Fey foundling both have to be taken at 1st level, so unless you're running a Human, that's likely not an option. Of the two, for a Paladin, I'd take Fey Foundling all day long.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just remember that Scion of War and Fey foundling both have to be taken at 1st level, so unless you're running a Human, that's likely not an option. Of the two, for a Paladin, I'd take Fey Foundling all day long.I am thinking of creating a character who at 1st level is a Lore Oracle with the Noble Scion/Scion of War feat. That character would then take later levels as an Iroran Paladin. The character would get away with dumping dexterity and reducing the armor actually worn as the maximum dexterity limits start kicking in.
If the paladin double dipping the charisma bonus to Reflex works (as confirmed by one of the James Jacobs quotes), then this character should eventually be able to double dip the charisma bonus to AC.
Always go with initiative. Because sometimes going First means going Last. And sometimes going Last means going Never.
Always go with initiative. Because sometimes going First means going Last. And sometimes going Last means going Never.
Totally Agree!!!
By the way, Anzyr, taking Fey Foundling is an option when you are going to go dip into paladin for the Swift LoH in conjunction with Greater Mercy.I agree that FF is good for ANY player that would receive more health for every cure... Even Barbarians....
Just remember that Scion of War and Fey foundling both have to be taken at 1st level, so unless you're running a Human, that's likely not an option. Of the two, for a Paladin, I'd take Fey Foundling all day long.I am thinking of creating a character who at 1st level is a Lore Oracle with the Noble Scion/Scion of War feat. That character would then take later levels as an Iroran Paladin. The character would get away with dumping dexterity and reducing the armor actually worn as the maximum dexterity limits start kicking in.
If the paladin double dipping the charisma bonus to Reflex works (as confirmed by one of the James Jacobs quotes), then this character should eventually be able to double dip the charisma bonus to AC.
Fey Founding and Noble Scion do not go well together flavorwise. There are other ways (for example, the Blessed Touch trait) to boost the heaing granted by Lay On Hands.
Hmm? How do they not go well together? Youre a nobles sprog who got lost during a hunting trip or while exploring the grounds--spirited away by the fey or accidentally stumbling through a wild gate or something. You have a fun time there meeting the strange locals and they send you back right as rain. Unfortunately youre displaced by a few years, as spiriting away is wont to cause. After returning home and puzzledly having everyone hug and cry over you for some reason ( because at your age you didnt kniw how kuch time had passed for them with you missing), you carried on where you left off. So your character looks a little young for their documented age, and you get neato powers and a fun backstory.
Hell, it even lets the GM tie in a fey from your little vacation recognizing you later and asking for help or something, or a quest to prove your legitimacy to your family that youre who you say you are.
Maybe you were adopted by an heirless house who thought finding you was an omen or an answer to their prayers (think disneys hercules-style)
Or maybe you come back to find that your house has fallen and you must work yiur way from nothing to bring your family name out of the muck (perfect for kingmaker!)
You could have been displaced by days, months, or even years, decades, or in extreme cases, centuries. Playing a temporal fish out of water brings lots of roleplay opportunities if you go that route.
Yes -- but you had to adjust the Fey Foundling feat to make the character older than an infant when he got lost. Between the two feats you have basically built your character's entire background, with not much room left for other options.