In all seriousness, the "Schrodinger's Wizard" concept is an abstract. No class can have the perfect solution to every problem at every moment.
But, if one was to choose one of the existing classes that is the closest to obtaining that abstract, it would be the wizard.
Well, that's the point, isn't it? People (or perhaps "they") are always saying how the wizard is so powerful. As a regular player of wizards, I'm inclined to agree. But when we put the rubber to the road and actually try to test it, no one ever seems to provide a build to see if a wizard can beat, say, AM BARBARIAN, or some other abstract character.
The point of this thread is to try to pin down said Schrödinger Wizard - to actually try to test it.
the number of options available is worthless when you can only use so many of them in one day. and if all you are doing is preparing general use spells. then the sorcerer would outshine the wizard in that case.
the whole advantage of being a wizard, is that you can prepare all those corner case spells. or at least keep scrolls of them.
but i have discovered, that there are relatively few sorcerer/wizard spells that apply often or in a vast majority of scenarios. based upon your group. over half the spell list is stuff most arcanists wouldn't touch unless the scenario were obvious and common enough.
most of the blast spells can generally be fixed by metamagic and most of them are similar enough anyway.
outside of a specific archetype, the sorcerer won't have as many skill points, but they do generally get more mileage out of face skills and use magic device than a wizard. and they generally do better at planar binding and most enchantment spells.
I am curious now.
What would be the requirements for a wizard build, who can claim the ultimate title of Schröedinger's wizard?
Can we have those requirements? Like a list that must be checked off, to ensure the build qualifies?
-Nearyn
in 3.5. i didn't quite have a wizard with the perfect solution for everything. but i did have a human rogue 1/wizard 5/unseen seer 10/arcane trickster 2 who felt a lot more versatile than if i played a straight wizard.
Dr. Dimitri Molotov used a lot of 3rd party to get around his weaknesses. he encased his heart and brain inside a robotic body, being barely living enough for a constitution score, yet mechanical enough to get away with dumping strength and dexterity without issue. in fact, his strength and dexterity were 6 before the medium robot body provided a 22 in each. he also had decent intellect and constitution,
he also took a few reserve feats to guarantee he never needed many attack spells and also had heighten spell
and his familiar was his apprentice, daughter, personal mechanic and opposite sex clone whom was still biological and living. she carried a lot of scrolls and wands to provide buffs he didn't feel like wasting his own actions on and often interrupted enemy spells, or messed up the terrain, with such things as wands of magic missile and scrolls of grease
he often prepared many utilitarian spells, for such things as scouting and dungeon progression, and relied on reserve feats in combat, except when he needed to cripple a foe badly.
there were also many spells he never needed due to having rogue skills that mimicked them, and when his spells failed, he could deal damage with his metal arms which dealt damage as cesti.
i haven't played him since about 2006-2007 if i recall correctly and his sheet was discarded a long time ago.
he didn't have a solution for everything, but he had solutions for a lot of problems. i probably cannot replicate them right now.
Look, no one denies wizards are quite capable of doing an excellent job of self-preservation, but even so they're all potentially only a single failed save away from defeat, just like every other class. It depends on how ruthless the opposition is prepared to be. In general, a GM isn't justified in pulling out all the stops, but show me a PC wizard with delusions of invincibility and I'll show you someone using Wisdom as a dump stat. The workarounds defenses/contingencies that people generally talk about not only wouldn't work in all cases (or in any cases sometimes, like contingent Teleports set to go off when the caster is dead and no longer an eligible Teleport target) they also often presuppose a wizard with much much greater resources than standard WBL.
If powerful wizards were truly undefeatable, they should never be the ultimate villains of adventures or campaigns, because then PCs would know better than to even try to defeat them, even when they have powerful wizards in their own midst.
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Almost 2 pages and still no Shroedinger's wizard build (and there will never be one, as it is impossible to do).
For clone : Combining it with Gentle repose works : it is the only mean to prevent it to rot. But it still doesn't bypass limits on this spell : if you could teleport yourself, why did you teleport a dead body instead of a living one ? If you couldn't teleport yourself, then what will happen to your equipment ? What will happen to your spellbook ? Did you have one copy in the place (with the cost associated) ? Did you come regularly (every 20 days at most) to cast Gentle repose to prevent your clone from rotting ? Etc...
There is way too much too handle to do a Shroedinger's wizard, and any remarks I made above doesn't even account for other people (only the wizard).
Or you have a teleport you control when you need to get the frak out and if something DOES go wrong, you have one they gets your gear to your cloneHow do you do that ? You are aware that contingency is personal, not "target : touch", right ? Oh, and you can have one, and only one contingency at a time... remember ?
There is no RAW evidence that says Gentle Repose works. Don't assume it works just because there is no other way to preserve the Clone.
Some people here have a tendency to read more into that whats actually there in order to achieve what they want.
Kind of funnu how someone will read heavily into something very loosely and it's geand when they benefit from it but when it doesn't it's not accepted.
Just remember boys and girls when stating up Schrodinger's Wizard that he in addition to having to pay to scribe every spell also needs to set aside money for components.. To reasonably be able to cast all core wizard spells at level 20 you need to set aside 115,910gp. Have fun with that number.
:)
At the end of the day, any wizard can be turned into wet, gooey paste (permanently) by the judicious application of two things: great wyrm red dragon and anti magic field. Of course, the problem here is that this is a Schrodinger's Monster - he happens to have the right ability to deal with the problem at hand.
Any GM can stack odds, or tailor encounters specifically to counter known player tactics, and at the end of the day it is nothing but a dick move.
The wizard is the class generally considered to be the most likely to have an ability that is useful in any situation, simply because the breadth of possible wizard spells covers pretty much any situation conceivable. That is a given. The unknowable aspect comes from the following: "having no prior knowledge of the situation, but needing to respond instantly to it, what is the probability of a wizard having the right spell available?" Pure random chance says this is (spells prepared/spells on the wizard spell list). But it gets skewed because wizards don't choose their spells by random chance, nor does it account for having spells on scrolls (which has a probability (wealth spent on scrolls/cost of scrolls of all spells)). Every time a new spell gets published, those numbers get worse for the wizard.
The core assumption of the Schrodinger's Wizard fallacy is that those numbers approach 100%, when in reality they are essentially negligible (if someone wants to crunch those numbers, they're free to, I might do it later).
Just remember boys and girls when stating up Schrodinger's Wizard that he in addition to having to pay to scribe every spell also needs to set aside money for components.. To reasonably be able to cast all core wizard spells at level 20 you need to set aside 115,910gp. Have fun with that number.
:)
Citation on that amount cause it's crap.
That would require 115 spells with 1k in expensive components, or 11 spells with 10k in expensive components.
Since there aren't that many (there are less than 100) wizard spells with expensive components in core and the vast majority are close or under about 250gp per casting, I'm calling shinanigans on you.
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The example you gave assumed the wizard was played by a moron who uber specialized their memorized spells without taking into account the standard array of general purpose spells.The example I provided was highly simplified. Trying to name a specific scenario on the forums is playing into the Schrodinger's wizard's home ground. Somebody WILL respond, "my wizard has X memorized."
There always comes a time when the unforeseen happens. Heavens Forbid, the same event occurs twice in one day and the wizard only prepared for it happening once.
The example I gave was, very intentionally, a highly abstracted scenario meant to provide an example of unforeseen circumstances. It is not intended to be taken as a literal encounter.
A well prepared high level wizard will nearly always have escape mechanisms in place. He has them because he knows he cannot prepare for, or win, every possible scenario.
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I find it amusing how many things are waived away by supporters of Schrodinger's Wizard as being under their Contingency spell. Since any single wizard can only have a single contingency active at one time. Oh well, why should they lock that down when they don't bother to lock down their spells memorized, etc?I know right!
So he walks around with that one Contingency that wisks him away to his clone only if he dies instead of that Teleport that keeps him from dying. All so he can appear at his clone.
I prefer a contingency that covers any condition that incapacitates the wizard, including death.
I also have my clone held in stasis, using one of several available methods and attended by simulacrum capable of making intelligent decisions.
I'm not sure you can teleport your corpse after you are dead.
The spell off a Contingency takes effect as if you were casting it at that moment. You are dead...how are you casting it? How are you determining the target/destination? You can't 'pre-set' a teleport, as far as I know...the only spell that allows that is a Word of Recall.
Thus, the ability to Teleport away if you are unconscious, stunned, dead, or whatever is impossible. You can't determine the destination while 'out', and it's not a word of recall to 'pre-program' the destination.
In short, I don't believe Contingency can teleport you after you are 'dead'.
'Incapacitated' is a very broad term. It could mean 'when I'm unconscious', which means it would trigger anytime you took a nap or went to sleep, which could be mighty inconvenient, and mean you're burning spell slots every day to keep your Contingency up.
As for the Clone...there are 'stasis' effects around (Sepia Snake Sigil and Sequester come to mind, but they are old) that could store a clone, but I'm pretty much of the opinion that Gentle Repose isn't going to work, as the clone was never dead to begin with.
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Schroedinger's Wizard was much easier to attempt in 3.5. There's spells, feats and magic items that allow you to go fishing for spells, fill empty spell slots very quickly, sack spells for other spells, and the like, as well as the ability to not have a spellbook, so you always had all your spells in your head.
==Aelryinth
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He's still wondering how you are preserving that Clone while you are still alive.
==Aelryinth
My preferred methods would include Temporal Stasis or a timeless demiplane.
Both instances include attendance by simulacrum capable of making decisions as to appropriate actions as I may be incapacitated instead of deceased.
"Once the spell is cast, the duplicate must be grown in a laboratory for 2d4 months.When the clone is completed, the original's soul enters it immediately, if that creature is already dead."
Emphasis mine. But it doesn't say that if you aren't dead at the completion of the clone that the stored clone can receive the soul at all. In fact the we I read it the only way the actual caster of the spell can have this work on themselves is if they use contingency clone & their own whole dead body is the spell component.
I really don't think you can 'bank' clones for a rainy day.
S.
My solutions negate your argument. The clone is held a day short of completion until needed.
An advantage of having mastery over time as well as space.
One thing nobody beats a wizard at is contingency planning after being beat of and kill. An archmage cannot prepare for every circumstance and may loose the occasional fight, but keeping him down is much more difficult.
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At the end of the day, any wizard can be turned into wet, gooey paste (permanently) by the judicious application of two things: great wyrm red dragon and anti magic field.
Wizard players have known how to escape antimagic fields for years: wear a teepee shrunk by shrink item on you head like a wizard's hat. When you enter an antimagic field, the shrink item spell is suppressed and the teepee falls down around you granting you total cover and breaking line of effect to the field, allowing you to escape via teleport or other means.
What did you think those conical wizard hats were for? ;P
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At the end of the day, any wizard can be turned into wet, gooey paste (permanently) by the judicious application of two things: great wyrm red dragon and anti magic field.Wizard players have known how to escape antimagic fields for years: wear a teepee shrunk by shrink item on you head like a wizard's hat. When you enter an antimagic field, the shrink item spell is suppressed and the teepee falls down around you granting you total cover and breaking line of effect to the field, allowing you to escape via teleport or other means.
What did you think those conical wizard hats were for? ;P
You're just mean.
Imagine the poor Mad Hatter making a hat big enough to conceal a 400 lb wizard.
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At the end of the day, any wizard can be turned into wet, gooey paste (permanently) by the judicious application of two things: great wyrm red dragon and anti magic field.Wizard players have known how to escape antimagic fields for years: wear a teepee shrunk by shrink item on you head like a wizard's hat. When you enter an antimagic field, the shrink item spell is suppressed and the teepee falls down around you granting you total cover and breaking line of effect to the field, allowing you to escape via teleport or other means.
What did you think those conical wizard hats were for? ;P
Awkward when dispel magic is cast on the hat :)
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'Incapacitated' is a very broad term. It could mean 'when I'm unconscious', which means it would trigger anytime you took a nap or went to sleep, which could be mighty inconvenient, and mean you're burning spell slots every day to keep your Contingency up.
My wizard retains a competent legal team for the specific wording of all magical documents.
There will be no misunderstandings or loopholes.
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Zones of null magic, such as being on a dead magic plane, might permeate; but the spell, antimagic field, does not. It abides by the rules of spells which, unless stated otherwise, require line of effect from the point of origin.
I was primarily trying to be funny with the post, but I really do believe this trick works.
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to ANY SPACE IN WHICH YOU WISH TO CREATE AN EFFECT. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
A burst, cone, cylinder, OR EMANATION spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.
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If it requires a legal team, then your Contingency is going to fail...magic spells don't have an 18 Int and ranks in Linguistics: Legalese.
I'm reminded of the Knights of the DInner Table where Brian actually hired a lawyer to write a wish up for him to become a god. He failed, barely, and walked off with a 25,000 gp consolation prize, regardless.
I'd've just stuck him in a demiplane, paralyzed, until the end of time while an Int 3 Modron attempted to understand his Wish, along with all the other legalese abusers. Magic is efficient that way.
Contingency is a PRIME area for Schroedinger's abuse. Once you start
And I'm pretty sure that a 'timeless' area isn't going to stop a Clone from growing, as it's the force of the spell doing that, not time or age (otherwise, it would have a fixed duration). Stasis effects once grown are a solution, as long as you've got someone to bring them down, or they naturally expire after a time...which means you better be around to re-cast them.
Note that Temporal Stasis requires Freedom to undo (its reverse), and would require spellcraft checks from simulacra to undo...and is a bad option since it requires level 17 to be effective. You want something working for your clone(s) now.
Ditto the demiplane.
==Aelryinth
If it requires a legal team, then your Contingency is going to fail...magic spells don't have an 18 Int and ranks in Linguistics: Legalese.
This is my standard contingency, and what I always have written on my character sheet:
Note that though much of the above is explanatory metagame text for the benefit of the player or the GM, the actual contingency is really quite simple:
No muss, no fuss, and highly effective at keeping a wizard alive.
At the end of the day, any wizard can be turned into wet, gooey paste (permanently) by the judicious application of two things: great wyrm red dragon and anti magic field.Wizard players have known how to escape antimagic fields for years: wear a teepee shrunk by shrink item on you head like a wizard's hat. When you enter an antimagic field, the shrink item spell is suppressed and the teepee falls down around you granting you total cover and breaking line of effect to the field, allowing you to escape via teleport or other means.
What did you think those conical wizard hats were for? ;P
*Slow claps
Oh, no need for applause as it wasn't my idea. As I said, wizards have been doing it for years. Thank you though.
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If it requires a legal team, then your Contingency is going to fail...magic spells don't have an 18 Int and ranks in Linguistics: Legalese.
Precise is not mutually exclusive with concise.
I'd've just stuck him in a demiplane, paralyzed, until the end of time while an Int 3 Modron attempted to understand his Wish, along with all the other legalese abusers. Magic is efficient that way.
DM fiat beats everything, but it's not much of a game and has nothing to do with the rules.
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There are ways to kill or beat any strategy, AMF attached to the old clerics of Mystra that could cast in it was a personal favorite. Of course "IF" I'm attacking a wizard who does this why not just dispel the contingency? Seems the easiest method I can think of to negate the effect.
My fighter carries, and can UMD, scrolls of anti-magic. Ravingdork's hat trick only buys one round if my fighter in standing close when she pops her field, else she simply shreds the hat before the wizard can act.
Fighters with anti-magic fields are one of those unforeseen circumstances most wizards don't have an answer for other than run away.
I shouldn't let myself get sucked into this, but I'm just amazed that no one has brought up the classic trio for dealing with casters--Dimensional Anchor (no save), Silence cast on something held by an ally who moves into close range (no save), and grapple attacks for the attempted pin. It's hardly an infallible trio, but it is the bare minimum starting point a caster should expect to face from opponents determined to defeat a caster of any power. Isn't it what players do when targeting wizards?
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Zones of null magic, such as being on a dead magic plane, might permeate; but the spell, antimagic field, does not. It abides by the rules of spells which, unless stated otherwise, require line of effect from the point of origin.
I was primarily trying to be funny with the post, but I really do believe this trick works.
** spoiler omitted **
The problem with your logic being that it already hit you if it activated the spell, meaning you are already within the antimagic field when the hat fell on your head. That is assuming is does, since the field doesn't dispel.
Being under a hat has no effect on the fact that you are in an antimagic area. It is just a piece of clothing.
You are basically saying "Magic has no effect, I'm wearing a giant hat!"
I would say I can't believe you would honestly try to make that argument to a GM, but...well...little surprises me anymore.
It is this "creative" reading that leads to people swearing the system is broken, and follows the same logic of a person who drives a car into a wall and calls the dealership to say they put out a broken car.
There are ways to kill or beat any strategy, AMF attached to the old clerics of Mystra that could cast in it was a personal favorite. Of course "IF" I'm attacking a wizard who does this why not just dispel the contingency? Seems the easiest method I can think of to negate the effect.My fighter carries, and can UMD, scrolls of anti-magic. Ravingdork's hat trick only buys one round if my fighter in standing close when she pops her field, else she simply shreds the hat before the wizard can act.
Fighters with anti-magic fields are one of those unforeseen circumstances most wizards don't have an answer for other than run away.
Running away is always a great option.
For what it's worth the ACTUAL Shrodinger power in Pathfinder isn't Wizard, it's in Dual Cursed Oracle. That power much more closely resembles Quantum Arcana than anything in the wizard list.
Running away is always a great option.There are ways to kill or beat any strategy, AMF attached to the old clerics of Mystra that could cast in it was a personal favorite. Of course "IF" I'm attacking a wizard who does this why not just dispel the contingency? Seems the easiest method I can think of to negate the effect.My fighter carries, and can UMD, scrolls of anti-magic. Ravingdork's hat trick only buys one round if my fighter in standing close when she pops her field, else she simply shreds the hat before the wizard can act.
Fighters with anti-magic fields are one of those unforeseen circumstances most wizards don't have an answer for other than run away.
Agreed, but the point of a Schrodinger's Wizard is that they can always "just cast X" to resolve (read: win) any situation.
And as for RD's awesome conical hat trick, that does still leave an angry great wyrm red dragon standing outside thinking "damn, it's not a tortilla, so my wrap isn't going to taste as nice as I expected".
As a GM, I would get quite annoyed with any player who went out of their way to ensure that they were capable of derailing any plot I present to them. Sure, if they do "just happen" to have the right spell prepared, or I've handed out a scroll they can use, throw my plot out the window, I can improvise well enough for it to not bother me, but to actively pick and choose their spell and item selection so that they can nullify (not avoid) any action the GM takes smacks of PvP (or PvGM), and there is only one possible outcome if I decide to make it me against them. They will lose, and the game will suffer for it.
If they play smart, do clever things, and come out on top, I'm doing my job right. If they somehow believe that they can impress me with "aha, but I have this ready for just such an occurrence!" they are mistaken.
I'm honestly not sure where I draw the line, but I can guarantee that the words "I want it to be impossible for Y to happen to me" will not get a positive response.
Running away is always a great option.There are ways to kill or beat any strategy, AMF attached to the old clerics of Mystra that could cast in it was a personal favorite. Of course "IF" I'm attacking a wizard who does this why not just dispel the contingency? Seems the easiest method I can think of to negate the effect.My fighter carries, and can UMD, scrolls of anti-magic. Ravingdork's hat trick only buys one round if my fighter in standing close when she pops her field, else she simply shreds the hat before the wizard can act.
Fighters with anti-magic fields are one of those unforeseen circumstances most wizards don't have an answer for other than run away.
Agreed, but the point of a Schrodinger's Wizard is that they can always "just cast X" to resolve (read: win) any situation.
And as for RD's awesome conical hat trick, that does still leave an angry great wyrm red dragon standing outside thinking "damn, it's not a tortilla, so my wrap isn't going to taste as nice as I expected".
As a GM, I would get quite annoyed with any player who went out of their way to ensure that they were capable of derailing any plot I present to them. Sure, if they do "just happen" to have the right spell prepared, or I've handed out a scroll they can use, throw my plot out the window, I can improvise well enough for it to not bother me, but to actively pick and choose their spell and item selection so that they can nullify (not avoid) any action the GM takes smacks of PvP (or PvGM), and there is only one possible outcome if I decide to make it me against them. They will lose, and the game will suffer for it.
If they play smart, do clever things, and come out on top, I'm doing my job right. If they somehow believe that they can impress me with "aha, but I have this ready for just such an occurrence!" they are mistaken.
I'm honestly not sure where I draw the line, but I can...
Wait the wizard picking good spells is PvGM. What!?
Just remember boys and girls when stating up Schrodinger's Wizard that he in addition to having to pay to scribe every spell also needs to set aside money for components.. To reasonably be able to cast all core wizard spells at level 20 you need to set aside 115,910gp. Have fun with that number.
:)
Citation on that amount cause it's crap.
That would require 115 spells with 1k in expensive components, or 11 spells with 10k in expensive components.
Since there aren't that many (there are less than 100) wizard spells with expensive components in core and the vast majority are close or under about 250gp per casting, I'm calling shinanigans on you.
There are ways to kill or beat any strategy, AMF attached to the old clerics of Mystra that could cast in it was a personal favorite. Of course "IF" I'm attacking a wizard who does this why not just dispel the contingency? Seems the easiest method I can think of to negate the effect.My fighter carries, and can UMD, scrolls of anti-magic. Ravingdork's hat trick only buys one round if my fighter in standing close when she pops her field, else she simply shreds the hat before the wizard can act.
Fighters with anti-magic fields are one of those unforeseen circumstances most wizards don't have an answer for other than run away.
Lantern archons have ex rays and flight with some decent DR. They are also a third level summons. Combined with any number of AMF proof barriers and the fighter has his own issues.
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You may issue your apology any time.Just remember boys and girls when stating up Schrodinger's Wizard that he in addition to having to pay to scribe every spell also needs to set aside money for components.. To reasonably be able to cast all core wizard spells at level 20 you need to set aside 115,910gp. Have fun with that number.
:)
Citation on that amount cause it's crap.
That would require 115 spells with 1k in expensive components, or 11 spells with 10k in expensive components.
Since there aren't that many (there are less than 100) wizard spells with expensive components in core and the vast majority are close or under about 250gp per casting, I'm calling shinanigans on you.
That is 45 spells, of which only 30 explicitly have material costs over 250 gp.
It is also a 3.5 reference. I'm not sure how many have had component cost updated.
Zones of null magic, such as being on a dead magic plane, might permeate; but the spell, antimagic field, does not. It abides by the rules of spells which, unless stated otherwise, require line of effect from the point of origin.
I was primarily trying to be funny with the post, but I really do believe this trick works.
** spoiler omitted **
The problem with your logic being that it already hit you if it activated the spell, meaning you are already within the antimagic field when the hat fell on your head. That is assuming is does, since the field doesn't dispel.
Being under a hat has no effect on the fact that you are in an antimagic area. It is just a piece of clothing.
You are basically saying "Magic has no effect, I'm wearing a giant hat!"
I would say I can't believe you would honestly try to make that argument to a GM, but...well...little surprises me anymore.
It is this "creative" reading that leads to people swearing the system is broken, and follows the same logic of a person who drives a car into a wall and calls the dealership to say they put out a broken car.
What Ravingdork speaks of is true. You can block an anti-magic field using the shrink-item trick on, for instance, a teepee, or any construction that would provide you with a full cover enclosure. It is in fact a really good trick, also it is completely legal.
-Nearyn
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Lantern archons have ex rays and flight with some decent DR. They are also a third level summons. Combined with any number of AMF proof barriers and the fighter has his own issues.There are ways to kill or beat any strategy, AMF attached to the old clerics of Mystra that could cast in it was a personal favorite. Of course "IF" I'm attacking a wizard who does this why not just dispel the contingency? Seems the easiest method I can think of to negate the effect.My fighter carries, and can UMD, scrolls of anti-magic. Ravingdork's hat trick only buys one round if my fighter in standing close when she pops her field, else she simply shreds the hat before the wizard can act.
Fighters with anti-magic fields are one of those unforeseen circumstances most wizards don't have an answer for other than run away.
I have a magic bow, lots of HP, can fly without magic and the ability to sunder any barrier that might be effective within an AMF (admantine weapons are nifty). Note: AMF only suppresses magic, as soon as my arrow leaves the AMF field, any magic attached resumes functioning.
Wall of force is a flat plane. I can simply fly over it. Most other magically created barriers are suppressed by AMF. The other exception is Prismatic Sphere, which only really allows the wizard a chance to run away.
And I'm not playing Schrodinger's fighter. I have a build.
I shouldn't let myself get sucked into this, but I'm just amazed that no one has brought up the classic trio for dealing with casters--Dimensional Anchor (no save), Silence cast on something held by an ally who moves into close range (no save), and grapple attacks for the attempted pin. It's hardly an infallible trio, but it is the bare minimum starting point a caster should expect to face from opponents determined to defeat a caster of any power. Isn't it what players do when targeting wizards?
Paranoid wizards plan for those specific counters. The solutions vary but do exist. My personal favorite is the 6 permanently summoned Elder Negative Energy Elementals my conjurer gets as a class ability. Yay, you caught me. Have you met my friends?
Component Costs are meaningless anyway for any sort of long term spell (i.e. ones that do not need to be in cast in combat) in Pathfinder thanks to the wonders of Blood Money. The most relevant in combat spell on that list is probably Forcecage (which I would never cast the PF version of) and Gate (which 10k to instantly augment my combat power with high powered Gated in help seems cheap compared to the loot I should be earning of that fight). Most of the focuses are fairly cheap about 1.5k is not an overwhelming sum to pay all of once for Shapechange and Contingency.
Edit: Artanthos - How does your fighter deal with Aroden's Spellbane set to Antimagic Field (which should be standard) does he just auto-lose?
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Not what I said, but I do get where you're coming from, and your incredulity.
I'm currently running a level 20 game. Every single one of the characters has magic items galore, and the wizard is indeed a powerhouse. I also happen to keep a copy of all of the character sheets, though I don't reference them during adventure prep. I know the wizard's standard spell loadout, and I know what scrolls he has. And I can assure you that he's well prepared for combat, defence, information-gathering and obstacle-avoidance. I know the wizard (and the cleric, the bard and the rogue) almost as well as the player does. So if I present a situation requiring immediate resolution, I have a pretty good idea what to expect. If my expectations are proven false because I forgot something, or failed to account for something, that's my problem.
On the other hand, if he were to say "oh, just before we carry this on, I've got X prepared in place of Y", where X just happens to negate the plotline, I'd say I have every right to get pissed off (he wouldn't do this, he's a really cool guy).
Preparing good spells is smart. Perfect knowledge and trying to one-up the GM is not. Schrodinger's Wizard is an attempt at one-upmanship, because it is predicated on the assumption that the GM somehow "lost" by failing to account for a spell the wizard had. As a player, going out of your way to ensure that it is impossible for the GM present any situation that you can't simply wave away with a spell is a dick move. If you can wave it away with the spells and items you have, more power to you. I applaud your ingenuity. But you can't attempt to cherry-pick after the situation is presented. Which is what "just happening" to have the right spells available all of the time is. Which is exactly how Schrodinger's Wizard is used in discussions on these boards.
This is why I applaud those asking for a Schrodinger's Wizard build - because it would allow us to say "actually, Schrodinger's Wizard doesn't have that spell prepared".
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Edit: Artanthos - How does your fighter deal with Aroden's Spellbane set to Antimagic Field (which should be standard) does he just auto-lose?
You're standing within reach of my fully functional weapons.
AMF was only to get me close.
You can still run away though.
But you can't attempt to cherry-pick after the situation is presented. Which is what "just happening" to have the right spells available all of the time is. Which is exactly how Schrodinger's Wizard is used in discussions on these boards.
This is what you are attempting though.
You're pulling from all possible resources to counter a specific threat without having a set build defining what resources are available.
I prefer to argue from set builds and spell lists. I would post my conjurer, but I dismantled him last week and am in the process of rebuilding. Liches don't care about clones though.
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Why would you need to learn all the wizard spells? There are a lot of really useless ones on the list. It seems to me you only need the best ones to solve any problem?
The difference between how good colour spray is to something like...Damp Powder is massive.
Or I guess Time Stop to Ride The Lightning, or fiery body
Arcane bond + being attacked by a construct with a gun? Weirder things have happened, even at 1st level. (Wood golem dual wielding shields?)
You learn all possible spells because you never know.
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You may issue your apology any time.Just remember boys and girls when stating up Schrodinger's Wizard that he in addition to having to pay to scribe every spell also needs to set aside money for components.. To reasonably be able to cast all core wizard spells at level 20 you need to set aside 115,910gp. Have fun with that number.
:)
Citation on that amount cause it's crap.
That would require 115 spells with 1k in expensive components, or 11 spells with 10k in expensive components.
Since there aren't that many (there are less than 100) wizard spells with expensive components in core and the vast majority are close or under about 250gp per casting, I'm calling shinanigans on you.
I can tell you right off the bat that the prices for the Symbol spells are incorrect.
Edit: For instance a Symbol of Death will cost you 10, 000gp. Who ever wrote those spells didn't fully read the material cost. At the end of the materials listed it says 5, 000 gp each. For the Symbol of Death it says powdered diamond and opal 5, 000 gp each.
You may issue your apology any time.To reasonably be able to cast all core wizard spells at level 20 you need to set aside 115,910gp. Have fun with that number.
:)
Citation on that amount cause it's crap.
That would require 115 spells with 1k in expensive components, or 11 spells with 10k in expensive components.That is 45 spells, of which only 30 explicitly have material costs over 250 gp.
It is also a 3.5 reference. I'm not sure how many have had component cost updated.
First off, the specific number of spells is irrelevant, AS called Peter out based off his listed total price. Which is correct, as my link demonstrates.
Secondly, you bothered to make a claim about it being 3.5 without checking? Why would this make any sense? The man used Pathfinder to provide these numbers. Shadowsoul's point about symbols only increases the total value. On the other hand, a minor oversight hardly dismisses the work that went into generating the value. The missing spells and underrated costs only strengthens the argument against the Shrowiz and further buries Abraham's spurious claim.
Yeah, my bad guys. I was making that list last night and just trying to finish it. I left a couple of the symbols off - and misread symbol of death - along with some other little things.
The total cost is actually higher than I originally posted (unless I missed something else - which is entirely possible and only drags up the total).
New total is 141,000gp minimum then - which doesn't include the costs of permanency. Also doesn't pay for the minor costs associated with binding.