Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance make dueling a viable fighting style. You get to add Dex to all attack and damage rolls made with Scimitars.
The downside is that you're pretty much stuck using scimitars... But that's not too bad, they're awesome weapons, and you can always refluff them as Rapiers or whatver you like.
The "Agile" enchatment also lets you add Dex to damage rolls, so it might be an alternative, but I'm not a big fan of depending of such an specific archetype.
A Gunslinger can make a pretty good Duelist with some ranged offensive tools as well, and playing a Magus is a very effective way to have a duelist with some spell casting.
All of that pretty much relies on Dervish Dance, though. Sadly, there aren't any other feats that make dueling actually viable...
*Warning: Recycled post*
Duelist is ALL about flair! I suggest a Rogue 4/ Magus 4/ duelist X approach. Not the most optimal approach, but it will feel fun lining up shocking grasp, SA, precise strike, and static dmg, then criting on a 15+. You will have all sorts of utility, skills, saves, and FLAIR!
Something even more with the flair and a little on the MAD side is a dervish of dawn bard 4 (Aasimar for the fcb to get +4 hit and dmg)/ magus 4/ duelistX. All you really need is a 12 cha to get the most out of your bard lvls. focus on self buffs with bard, direct dmg with magus. You are hurting on feats, but you do alot more dmg than any fighter, and still have the skills for out of combat utility... And FLAIR!!!!!
Addendum to the last build... Even less optimal but still cool. Dervish/ sound striker bard 6/ weapon master 3/ duelist X. Use your Aasimar fcb for weird words to max it out, and pick up gloves of dueling so you get +4 hit/dmg from inspire courage, +3 hit/dmg from weapon training, AND 10d8 + 10 ranged touch attack from weird words when you can't get into range.
All of that pretty much relies on Dervish Dance, though. Sadly, there aren't any other feats that make dueling actually viable...
Crane, snake, and panther styles are great for dueling... MoMS lets you twist them all at the same time. Pick up a temple sword and you have crouching goblin/ hidden manticore...
You can have the entirety of crane style by level 2 if you play as a human master of many styles monk. Basically, use your first level feat and human bonus feat to get dodge and crane style. Then, with your bonus style feat from your class, you can pick up crane wing. This will allow you to feel like a duelist from level 1, since this feat allow you to basically cancel one melee attack per round. In a one on one fight, with an enemy using just a single melee weapon, you CANNOT BE HIT until enemies start getting around level 6 or so, where they start getting iteratives. This has a few exceptions, such as TWF, natural attacks, or just having two opponents.
At level 2, you get another bonus feat from class: Crane riposte, which allows you to take an Attack of Opportunity when using crane wing. This makes you devastating.
Now, with this major advantage, you do not need to feel like you HAVE to take weapon finesse. I bring this up since your feats will be rather taken up for a while. You can make a perfectly fine Strength build using this style. You do not need to worry so much about your DEX bonus to AC since you can often simply cancel out the first attack of a full attack, which is somewhat like having +5 AC (or the opponent has 5 level BAB...whatever) Also, while you may start out as a monk, you will frankly find that you are better off just using armor than wasting too much on wisdom. Multiclassing into a more front lines class, such as fighter or ranger, and playing like one of them is rather much suggested overall.
All of that pretty much relies on Dervish Dance, though. Sadly, there aren't any other feats that make dueling actually viable...Crane, snake, and panther styles are great for dueling... MoMS lets you twist them all at the same time. Pick up a temple sword and you have crouching goblin/ hidden manticore...
Oh, don't get me wrong, those feats certainly help a lot, but if you want to focus on Dex and still deal acceptable damage, then Dervish dance is probably the only way to go.
Oh, don't get me wrong, those feats certainly help a lot, but if you want to focus on Dex and still deal acceptable damage, then Dervish dance is probably the only way to go.All of that pretty much relies on Dervish Dance, though. Sadly, there aren't any other feats that make dueling actually viable...Crane, snake, and panther styles are great for dueling... MoMS lets you twist them all at the same time. Pick up a temple sword and you have crouching goblin/ hidden manticore...
I can certainly concede that point, good sir. However, a 14 str is not a bad stat to make sure your unarmed strikes sting a bit. With snake and panther styles, you will be getting alot of them. But if you do decide to venture down that path, remember that the brawling property that applies to light armor stacks with AoMF.
Oh, don't get me wrong, those feats certainly help a lot, but if you want to focus on Dex and still deal acceptable damage, then Dervish dance is probably the only way to go.If you want to focus in Dex AND one handed weapons. The elven blade do fine with power attack.
Assuming your ECB has one very specific enchantment...
can certainly concede that point, good sir. However, a 14 str is not a bad stat to make sure your unarmed strikes sting a bit. With snake and panther styles, you will be getting alot of them. But if you do decide to venture down that path, remember that the brawling property that applies to light armor stacks with AoMF.
Yeah, that Str 14 is also good if the character wants to be able to use archery with some effect. Not to mention there are a lof of Str draining effects.
Also, being able to carry stuff without the need of a Bag of Holding is always nice.
Uhm, if PrCs are an option and you feel like using a specific weapon, you could go Aldori Swordlord at some point. Also allows Dex to damage with an aldori dueling sword. Admittedly not definitively better than Dervish Dance and a scimitar, but the class also has some options for duelist-style combat, and has a nice duelist feel to it.
I think that feats are definitely the way to to, though. Combat Expertise lets you focus on defense while attacking, while leading to Improved combat maneuvers like disarm, and as said before, the Crane Style chain lets you bat away an attack each turn and eventually even attack back (parry and riposte). The Swordlord Fighter archetype also offers some duelist-like abilities, as does the Free-Hand Fighter.
Oh, don't get me wrong, those feats certainly help a lot, but if you want to focus on Dex and still deal acceptable damage, then Dervish dance is probably the only way to go.If you want to focus in Dex AND one handed weapons. The elven blade do fine with power attack.Assuming your ECB has one very specific enchantment...
No. Lets compare for example at five level.
The dervish dancer wants 13 strengh so he can power attack (piranha strike do not work with scimitars). Asumming 18 in dex we have in damage
1d6 + 10 (4 dex +6 Power attack)
average damage = 13.
and elven curved blade user want 14 in str. he would do
1d10 + 12 (3 Str + 9 Power attack)
Average damage = 17.
Good point, but 2-handing is not dueling... At least not what I call dueling. That'd be fighting with a 1-handed weapon and a free hand.
In which case, your ECB damage would be 1d10+8 = 13,5. Which is just very slightly better than DD, but DD can be used with any scimitar (not just the ones with the Agile enchantment) and its DPR rises with each addition to your Dex modifier.
I the original post you wrote you do not mention "dueling", you used "dex focused" :P.
Well, the thread is named "MAKING A DUELIST TYPE CHARACTER?", so I thought that was implied...
Building a 2-handed warrior is really easy, and such character would benefit a lot more from Str-focused build with decent Dex than the other way around.
Yeah, bit I am going to assume that he wants one that has a more 'dodge' feel than a 'I wear 100 pounds of metal' or 'I am a meat shield' feel. The original post did say it wanted the feel, not all of the associated imagery. Who says you have to one hand in order to duel? Rich aristocrats from the Renaissance who had too much time on their hands, that's who (plus Hollywood, I suppose). But I digress
Now that I think about it, maybe a Lore Warden archetype for fighter is more up your alley. They lose their heavier armor proficiencies, but they get more skill points and they get combat expertise as a bonus feat at level 2 (works like power attack, but gives you AC; normally would require 13 int) Lore wardens also get bonuses to CMB and they can study an opponent with a knowledge check to get bonuses to hit and damage. I'm sure that this is a fine choice for a mobile swordsman focused on style.
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I made a Duelist with the Aldori Swordlord fighter Archetype(from the Inner Sea Primer pg.24) before going into Duelist. The Dueling Blade is a good weapon, and the build lets you raise your AC and CMD when the Bosses get in your face, first few levels the damage is week but as you get higher in level you can fix that. I saved up to get Agile on my main sword to put me to within 3 points of Damage of a Str Sword & board fighter, that was in my group at 8th level and by 12th I was 1 over him and I have an AC on pare with him and can boost it by 8 with only taking a -2 to my attack. I went ASL for 7 levels to get the Steel Net power and to get all Prerequisites then went strait Duelist after that.
Here is a link to my character sheet, if you need anything explaned just ask
Oh, I can't believe I forgot to post my favorite duelist build:
Foxy Slicey the Halfling Duelist (who happens to be a Barbarian)
I know it's shameless self-promotion, but it's a really fun build! ^^
I am a relative Pathfinder newbie who has only played in a handful of sessions previously, and is a bit tired of playing support characters.
What I'd like in the new game I'm joining, all fresh level 1 characters, is to play a sword master of the duelist or swashbuckler type. I say "type" because there appears to be a PrC or Archetype for just about every descriptive word I'd like I use. The play style I'm aiming for is someone who can stand mostly in the front line during a big skirmish, have some good mobility, and take big boss bad-guys in one-on-one.
I'm sorry if that's not particularly clear but there are so many pre-existing "types" that seem to have laid claim to the niche I was looking at I don't know where to start and don't want to build a character that will get stuck in a dead end or stop being useful.
Any help will be appreciated!
OK, let me me break this into some options:
Are you looking for the archetypal smart & fast swashbuckler as opposed to strong & tough fighting types?
Are you looking for fancy maneuvers or dishing out a lot of hurt in damage?
There are a lot of options available in terms of classes that can pull off what you want. Obviously the duelist PrC, but also many varients of fighter - the Mobile Fighter is great for getting around the battlefield, the Free Hand Fighter is good for defence and maneuvers, the Aldori Swordlord has some neat tricks, etc. Also a dip in Monk (Master of Many Styles) is well worth looking into if you are going for a lightly armoured type, as they get a great boost to saves and defence while giving access to some fantastic style feats.
So if you want fast & smart, here's an example:
Test Duelist
Male Human (Varisian) Duelist 2 Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 6 Monk (Master of Many Styles) 2
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +11; Senses Perception +16
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Defense
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AC 32, touch 28, flat-footed 20 (+3 armor, +9 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection, +3 dodge)
hp 72 (8d10+2d8+10)
Fort +11, Ref +14, Will +11
Defensive Abilities canny defense +2, evasion, parry
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Agile Mithral Rapier +19/+14 (1d6+13/15-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +17/+12 (1d6+1/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +0) +17/+12 (1d8/x3)
Special Attacks precise strike, singleton +1
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 24, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +9 (+11 Tricking, +13 Disarming); CMD 37 (39 vs. Dirty Trick, 41 vs. Disarm)
Feats Combat Expertise +/-3, Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Critical (Rapier), Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Disarm, Improved Unarmed Strike, Mobility, Stunning Fist (4/day) (DC 18), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Weapon Specialization (Rapier)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +20, Bluff -1 (+1 to feint or create a diversion to hide), Climb +10, Craft (weapons) +5, Diplomacy +9, Escape Artist +20, Handle Animal +3, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (engineering) +9, Knowledge (history) +9, Knowledge (religion) +9, Perception +16, Perform (dance) +4, Ride +11, Sense Motive +7, Stealth +16, Survival +7, Swim +4
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Thassilonian, Varisian
SQ ac bonus +3, deceptive strike +2, elusive +2, fuse style (2 styles), stunning fist (stun), unarmed strike (1d6)
Other Gear +1 Agile Mithral Rapier, Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +0), Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Bracers of armor +3, Cloak of resistance +1, Headband of mental prowess (Int & Wis +2) (Diploma, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ring of protection +2, 188 PP
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +3 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Canny Defense +2 (Ex) +INT bonus to AC (max Duelist level).
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Penalty when fighting defensively reduced to -2 and dodge bonus increases by 1.
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Deceptive Strike +2 (Ex) +2 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Elusive +2 (Ex) +2 Dodge AC
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fuse Style (2 styles) (Ex) At 1st level, a master of many styles can fuse two of the styles he knows into a more perfect style. The master of many styles can have two style feat stances active at once. Starting a stance provided by a style feat is still a swift action, but whe
Improved Dirty Trick You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when performing a dirty trick.
Improved Disarm You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when disarming.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Parry (Ex) Forego an attack to defend against enemy attacks.
Precise Strike (Ex) Extra damage when using light / 1-handed Piercing weapons.
Singleton +1 (Ex) +1 to hit and damage when weilding a one-handed melee weapon.
Stunning Fist (4/day) (DC 18) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Weapon Finesse at level #1 with fighter, then dip two levels of MoMs and go fighter to 5th, then Duelist 2, then another level of Fighter to get the extra feat, and after this Duelist all the way. Fighting defensively this guy has awesome AC (36) for his level, deflects one attack a round (Crane Wing) and delivers three attacks (including one AoO from Crane Riposte) that are far from inconsequential.
Two levels in Flowing monk then 4 levels in two weapon fighting fighter for the weapon training. Once you have weapon training, you can use duelist gloves for an additional +3/+3. Go twf with a swordbreaker dagger in offhand (additional +2 to disarm). Duelist were about disarming, not trading blows. Go Duelist for the parries. Yes, you do not get the Precise strike but thats all you lose by having an offhand weapon.
Feats:
Human: Improved Init
Lv 1 Feat: Weapon Finese Rapier
Lv 1 Monk bonus Feat: Dodge
Lv 2 Monk bonus Feat: Improved Trip
Lv 3 Feat: Mobility
Lv 1 ftr bonus feat:Weapon Expertise
Lv 2 Ftr bonus feat: TWF
Lv 5 feat: Improved Disarm
Lv 4 Ftr Feat:
With this build, you are +4/+4 against anything with the gloves. You immediately can trip anyone trying to attack as an immediate action. You save your offhand attack for parrying/disarming.
If thats not a duelist, there isnt such a thing.
Dervish of dawn bard 4/ weapon master 3 with gloves of dueling get you +7 to hit and dmg if you make an assimar and take the fcb for inspire courage. It saves you the feats to get dervish dance and has you using dex for hit and dmg at lvl 1. You only get stronger from there. You can get to duelist by lvl 8, just one lvl behind the fighter, but you have better saves, skills, and magic. And your dmg is higher. These are the main feats you want.
1) dodge
3) power attack
5) imp unarmed strike
5) crane style
6) crane wing
7) mobility
8) whatever you want from there out.
Like I said above, you only need a 12 cha to max out bard potential.
Like I said above, you only need a 12 cha to max out bard potential.
er, what? you mentioned above that one of the perks for it (compared to standard fighter->duelist) was that you got spells. 12 cha sorta flies in the face of that since it would severely limit your spellcasting availability.
EDIT: nevermind, just noticed you're only taking 4 levels in bard, so 2nd level spells is all you'd get (which 12 cha covers iirc). carry on then.
Bwah ha! I have the type for you! I'm playing that exact build, based on Rurouni Kenshin's Battousai. He looks like this:
STR 11
DEX 20
CON 10
INT 16
WIS 18
CHA 8
My first two levels were in Master of Many Styles Monk, giving me a 19 AC from my stats, and took Snapping Turtle Style, Dodge and Improved Initiative. Second level I took Crane Style. From there, go into Free Hand Fighter, who specializes in single weapon fighting. Pick up Mobility and Combat Expertise, and I took weapon proficiency: wakizashi, though you could easily take a Weapon Focus or such. Step Up is fun. Once you get BAB 6, go into Duelist, at 7th level take Crane Wing, allowing you to auto-parry any ONE melee attack. Duelist also gets their own Parry, which one-on-one is sick. Both Crane Wing and Parry lead into Crane Riposte and Duelist's Riposte, which grants AoO per parry. I get to attack twice on my opponents turn? Thanks. Step Up and Strike + No Retreat makes escape harder.
In the end, I have 6 levels in Monk, 4 in Fighter, and 10 in Duelist. I like the build, though it doesn't do a lot of damage per round. Its a wicked foe for mages, who can't seem to hit his Touch AC, and can't land AoE because of his Reflex. Against more melee enemies, the parries/AoO give me the damage I lack during my turn. Tinker with it if you like it, I'm sure there is stuff I missed or didn't want to use that would fit your style.