If you're that attached to being a complete non-combatant, maybe you should try another game that is more friendly to that style of play?I wish to reply to this that when 3 out of 4 players in a group (and the dm) love RP and their maximum enjoyment comes from plot, backgroundstory and similar aspects of the game.
Than the player that makes the power-gamer combat archer is the one that should respect the rest of the group.
But that is based on a group that does not care for each other and we are not that kind of group. The entire goal of this post was to find a good way to solve the situation.
Why do you have combat at all?
Why do you have combat at all?Because it is also fun. It is an easy and good way to shine, and when one of our friends is not fond of rp at all it ofc must be a part of the campaign.
Combat in itself is not a bad thing, its great fun. But when i as a player look back at the over 15 years of dnd experience i have than it is only rp-incidents i can remember.
To me the best part of dnd is to live another life, feel the pain that chr feels, take the choices i would never take and be a part of situations i would never be a part of in rl. That is seldom combat.
OK, so that player likes combat. He wishes to be "good" at combat the way you wish to be "good" at RP. He's built for it in the same way you are not. Why not let him do what he does? You won't remember the combat anyway.
the party of noncombatants needs a damage dealer to protect them in combat. which is where the powergaming archer comes in.
most monsters don't give you the chance to negotiate. so expedient slaughter is sometimes needed.
as Q said in the movie Skyfall
"Every now and then, a trigger has to be pulled."
I honestly think the dm should look at the fighters feats and just check if its right. If its right, well nothing you can do but tell the other player to re do feats if you think the fighter is just op in fights....but that's ranged for you. I actually had a ranged character that I nerfed cause I wanted to be decent in both melee and ranged. Mostly cause of the situation on the fighting areas (being flanked from the sides of the hallway or can't reach a flying creature)
But yeah the dm should just allow certain books if that's gonna be a issue imo so thy everyone can shine then just a single person. But what of the other party memebers do they even care?
One likely controversial thing you could try is a damage cap. A friend and I once tossed around the idea of a 10 damage per level cap on melee and ranged attacks and a 5 damage per level cap on AoE spells. Since you're specifically trying to control ranged damage maybe you'd cap that at 5 per level too. Would reducing the Fighter to 40 DPR be enough to "fix" the problem, or is 40 damage "too much"?
Maybe you could also allow a PC to bypass the damage cap for a round by spending a hero point. We never instituted the cap in our games since we ultimately decided it was a bad idea, but for groups who dislike having the monsters die fast and seeing DPR disparity between PCs it might be a workable solution.
Obviously this would encourage certain styles of play, but maybe that's what you want.
One likely controversial thing you could try is a damage cap. A friend and I once tossed around the idea of a 10 damage per level cap on melee and ranged attacks and a 5 damage per level cap on AoE spells. Since you're specifically trying to control ranged damage maybe you'd cap that at 5 per level too. Would reducing the Fighter to 40 DPR be enough to "fix" the problem, or is 40 damage "too much"?
Maybe you could also allow a PC to bypass the damage cap for a round by spending a hero point. We never instituted the cap in our games since we ultimately decided it was a bad idea, but for groups who dislike having the monsters die fast and seeing DPR disparity between PCs it might be a workable solution.
Obviously this would encourage certain styles of play, but maybe that's what you want.
I would walk away at that point, if I was that player. It isn't him, the others are incompetent. They should be asking him to fix their builds, not the other way around.
the problem is rolled stats and excessive amounts of good luck on the archer's side.
my solution, reboot the campaign, have everyone use a 25 point buy. drop the rolls, and assist each player with character creation
second solution, tell the antipaladin to both take and use power attack. watch his level 8 damage increase by 9. include custom item drops intended for the antipaladin, alchemist and sorcerer until they reach the archery fighter's wealth.
Its not that we dont want him to "do what he does". I never wanted to nerf him or anything similar to that. All i asked was that in earlier games the balance have been good, but lately we have experienced that based on his skills in combat we have reached the point where encounters are either a walk in the park or instant kill.
The reasons for this are many, what i wanted was ways to make it easier to make the encounter more fun. And i got a lot of good replies. To use weather, rain, cover or just to keep players moving so they dont use their fullround attacks are some of them.
As i see it this is a better way to achieve this than "the make cast obscuring mist, the sorcerer cast hold person on archer. Now, lets have some fun!"
It is neither that i will not remember the combat, it is the fact that when we gave for 12h straight, and there are no difficulties anymore than ppl pick up their phones, they check their mail etc.
I'm glad you found some solutions you like. Have you considered that the party is generally underpowered for its level?
What is the APL? What is the CR of your average encounter in your game?
If you're that attached to being a complete non-combatant, maybe you should try another game that is more friendly to that style of play?I wish to reply to this that when 3 out of 4 players in a group (and the dm) love RP and their maximum enjoyment comes from plot, backgroundstory and similar aspects of the game.
Exactly.
You receive maximum enjoyment from the plot and RP. The problem is that Pathfinder is built around the assumption of about 70% combat and 30% RP.
There are a lot of other games that have more what you're looking for, is all I'm sayin'. Some that are around 80% RP and 20% combat, and those are the types that a character can be optimal in built ENTIRELY for social encounters. I hear almost all of White Wolf's titles are like that, for example.
This is not a "Well GTFO if you don't like it!" kind of post, this is a genuine suggestion that another game may be more to your liking.
Than the player that makes the power-gamer combat archer is the one that should respect the rest of the group.
This misses the entire point. He is not disrespecting your group by knowing the game and how to build characters. And this is not even a power game-y build in the slightest.
Search the term "RageLancePounce" on the boards for a prominent (if far beyond ridiculous) example of twinked out, power gamed/min-maxed nonsensical heights of damage.
"RageLancePounce" is an overpowered yet Valid Tactic popularized by a user by the name Trinam who created a character called AM BARBARIAN. essentially a schrodinger's Barbarian with a seemingly infinite amount of cash, a synthesist mount that flies and is immune to fatigue, gained via leadership, dumped int and cha with a 25 point buy, exploited an overpowered favored class bonus, and generally kills foes in one round by combining a twinked out 2handed lance with pounce and spirited charge. he has 2 main tricks we know of, RageLancePounce and Strength Surging Spell Sundering Rage Cycle.
his other stuff involves a shipload of magical equipment tailored to the situation to solve problems.
his one primary Scenario involves the following
Bat-Riding Barbarian sees a lone unbuffed wizard from 1,000 feet away in the open plains, catches the wizard off guard, beats his initiative and RageLancePounces him before he has time to buff or prepare. usually dealing enough damage to 1 shot him.
this is a specific barbarian build designed for fullfilling this particular scenario.
he never posts a complete build because wizard fans never post a complete build either. he wants the wizards to go first.
Well, like I said. "Far beyond ridiculous".
But really though, even check the build thread (Build Thread 3: Swingin' Swords and Kickin' Ass").
I have a freakin' WHIP user that can do somewhere around 1d6+30 on a Power Attack, and even that is considered "Fairly average" damage acording to Lemmy's DPR calculations. Level 10, only one level above your Archer guy.
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Why do you have combat at all?Because it is also fun. It is an easy and good way to shine, and when one of our friends is not fond of rp at all it ofc must be a part of the campaign.
Combat in itself is not a bad thing, its great fun. But when i as a player look back at the over 15 years of dnd experience i have than it is only rp-incidents i can remember.
To me the best part of dnd is to live another life, feel the pain that chr feels, take the choices i would never take and be a part of situations i would never be a part of in rl. That is seldom combat.
You feel free to enjoy the pain...he prefers feeling like the hero. Seems like it works just fine.
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The secret to building a great character that meshes well with the group and works well mechanically is a real challenge. As my group's resident power gamer (in a much as I build effective characters), I like to look at the "guide to" articles, build that insane character, then dial it down a couple notches. This gives me an effective character that can survive, but doesn't overshadow the rest of the less optimal members of the party. I also offer advice on builds if asked.
Fortunately I have yet to play in a group that have characters completely devoid of heroism like Iliad suggests. A group like that in PFS would get me killed.
"Optimizers" and "Rule Lawyers" are completely different things by the by.
Optimizers just want to make a character that is good at something. Everyone optimizes to a certain extent if they know the game at all. If you want a guy that swings a Greatsword around, you're not going to pick a class with no martial weapon proficiency, give him low Str, and not take Power Attack (if you plan on dealing any damage with it).
Power Gaming is slightly different, related to min/maxing in that you reduce unnecessary stats to the minimum possible so that you may maximize your needed stats, and also you pump every possible thing you can into making yourself the best at that one thing to the exclusion of all else. This is the guy who can crank out 250+ DPR after about level 12, but whose character can't tie his own shoelaces. The fun part about power gaming is that so many people DO IT WRONG and drop other stuff ("It can't hurt if I dump Wis on my Fighter, right?") that leaves less of an Achilles Heel and more of an Achilles Upper Body, like a bad Will save. SO yeah, they can throw down 250-300 DPR, but if somebody flings a Dominate at them or something they're gonna be working for the other team a lot.
Rules Lawyers really just like to stick to the letter of the rules. Some do it maliciously (at extremes "It doesn't SAY I can't act when I'm dead!) in order to gain an unfair advantage if the GM says "Well, the rules do say...", but can be a good thing as well if that's what the GM needs. If the GM goes "I'm actually not sure how this works" the Rules Lawyer at the table is usually the guy that goes "I do!" and explains it. These are also the guys you usually see on the forum going "Hey this rule is a bit ambiguous/not sure it should work exactly the way its worded".
None of these are bad things, and Optimizing and to a somewhat lesser extent Rules Lawyering are less so in every circumstance. Power Gaming can disrupt games. Rules Lawyering (maliciously) can disrupt games. Optimizing cannot UNLESS the rest of the group has little to no grasp of the ruleset. Which is easily remedied by the resident optimizer teaching them a little bit.
It defeats the purpose of the game if you do something but suck at it. If your character is a warrior, he needs to be good at fighting. The thing with Pathfinder is that everyone is an ADVENTURER in the average campaign. They should expect to see combat on AT LEAST a weekly basis, and usually MUCH more often. If they bring nothing to the table in combat, then they are not playing their role well. They don't have to be a damage dealer, but they need to be buffing, healing, controlling the terrain, or SOMETHING, else they're just dead weight and it makes no sense why the more competent members of the party would travel with them.
I'm glad you found some solutions you like. Have you considered that the party is generally underpowered for its level?
What is the APL? What is the CR of your average encounter in your game?
Need to have a bit more info than what i currently have to answer this. But i belive we are quite a lot above normal lvl as we are all experienced players and i feel utilise what skills we have avalible.
Last session we had an encounter with a CR 12 and it was more or less a walk in the park :)
But the problem i feel is solved, we will talk as a group and see what we can do. The dm will use a more exact description of the weather, lighting and such, and this will help :)
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