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Also, by the way.
Obese heroes? Bloatmages.
Furry fans? Lini has this covered on the "wildshapes into a big cat to snuggle her best friend big cat" level.
People with physical disabilities? Alahazra, the iconic Oracle, is blind.
Alahazra you are right on. there is no iconic bloatmage and they seem hardly heroic. your take on lini wildshaping might be seen as insulting to furries as someone saying if harsk hugged the wizard it would count as a gay, right.
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Hey Andrew R, why aren't you offended by the fact that so many iconics are religious? I mean, by your logic one religious person among iconics is enough to cover all those christianislamjewsihwhatever out there, why shove religion down our throats? :)
If a large number of them were of one real religion i might start to wonder what they were pushing, same if the vast bulk were very anti religion. Instead they are a variety. And you may notice but not one is taking on a real life religion....
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If a large number of them were of one real religion i might start to wonder what they were pushing, same if the vast bulk were very anti religion. Instead they are a variety. And you may notice but not one is taking on a real life religion....Hey Andrew R, why aren't you offended by the fact that so many iconics are religious? I mean, by your logic one religious person among iconics is enough to cover all those christianislamjewsihwhatever out there, why shove religion down our throats? :)
So the iconics should have make-believe sexualities and genders to make you happy?
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So the iconics should have make-believe sexualities and genders to make you happy?If a large number of them were of one real religion i might start to wonder what they were pushing, same if the vast bulk were very anti religion. Instead they are a variety. And you may notice but not one is taking on a real life religion....Hey Andrew R, why aren't you offended by the fact that so many iconics are religious? I mean, by your logic one religious person among iconics is enough to cover all those christianislamjewsihwhatever out there, why shove religion down our throats? :)
So they must be all forms of gender/gay combos to make you happy? I want room to go beyond just this one facet of identities.
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I want room to go beyond just this one facet of identities.
Why? Redheads aren't feeling excluded - why go out of the way to include them?
All categories aren't equal - the experience of different groups is different.
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So they must be all forms of gender/gay combos to make you happy? I want room to go beyond just this one facet of identities.So the iconics should have make-believe sexualities and genders to make you happy?If a large number of them were of one real religion i might start to wonder what they were pushing, same if the vast bulk were very anti religion. Instead they are a variety. And you may notice but not one is taking on a real life religion....Hey Andrew R, why aren't you offended by the fact that so many iconics are religious? I mean, by your logic one religious person among iconics is enough to cover all those christianislamjewsihwhatever out there, why shove religion down our throats? :)
No, I'm telling you that:
Black =/= hispanic, asian, pacific islander, etc
Just as:
Gay =/= lesbian, bi, transgender
Got it now?
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If a large number of them were of one real religion i might start to wonder what they were pushing, same if the vast bulk were very anti religion. Instead they are a variety. And you may notice but not one is taking on a real life religion....Hey Andrew R, why aren't you offended by the fact that so many iconics are religious? I mean, by your logic one religious person among iconics is enough to cover all those christianislamjewsihwhatever out there, why shove religion down our throats? :)
So, variety in religion is fine, variety in sexual orientation is bad?
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Andrew R, I think you're really missing the point.
Like someone said upthread, if you're really that interested in having an iconic that represents X, then push for it. I doubt anyone here will stop you. In fact, they might help you with it. A significant number of players are interested in seeing LGBT iconics, and Paizo has responded - if not due to a specific "I want to see Y thread", due to their understanding of the issues. If you can show that there is need for X iconic, then they might respond to you as well.
It's unhelpful to say "no, I don't want to see any iconics of type Y until I get my iconic of type X,"; instead you should be celebrating that people of type Y are being represented in tabletop gaming, while STILL PUSHING for iconics of type X that you are interested in. By coming after another minority group, you're just poisoning the waters for everyone.
(Also, to a few people upthread: weight does not equal health. And many problems overweight/obese people face are actually not due to their weight, they're due to social conceptions of weight influencing their behavior and mood psychologically, both on an individual level and because of how other people treat the overweight/obese. I'm not saying weight doesn't correlate with health, just please be aware that there are other factors before making blanket statements as always.)
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So they must be all forms of gender/gay combos to make you happy? I want room to go beyond just this one facet of identities.So the iconics should have make-believe sexualities and genders to make you happy?If a large number of them were of one real religion i might start to wonder what they were pushing, same if the vast bulk were very anti religion. Instead they are a variety. And you may notice but not one is taking on a real life religion....Hey Andrew R, why aren't you offended by the fact that so many iconics are religious? I mean, by your logic one religious person among iconics is enough to cover all those christianislamjewsihwhatever out there, why shove religion down our throats? :)
No, I'm telling you that:
Black =/= hispanic, asian, pacific islander, etc
Just as:
Gay =/= lesbian, bi, transgender
Got it now?
Yet there is no hispanic, pacific islander, etc iconic either so why not include them? and if you can claim gay is different than lesbian then black woman is not the same as black man so they are still excluded....
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Still waiting on Andrew's "Who is the lefthanded, BDSM furry, lobster boy iconic with a speech impediment?" thread.
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Yeah, but obesity at worst is connected to social stigma. Nobody is going to jail you, throw stones at you or deny you a pension because you're fat (corner cases aside).
But all the above might happen due to race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, gender, sexual orientation, political views, having/not having children, etc. etc.
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So, variety in religion is fine, variety in sexual orientation is bad?If a large number of them were of one real religion i might start to wonder what they were pushing, same if the vast bulk were very anti religion. Instead they are a variety. And you may notice but not one is taking on a real life religion....Hey Andrew R, why aren't you offended by the fact that so many iconics are religious? I mean, by your logic one religious person among iconics is enough to cover all those christianislamjewsihwhatever out there, why shove religion down our throats? :)
It is when they are making that the sole defining characteristic. We do not have an iconic character that happens to be gay we have a GAY iconic that happens to be anything else. The iconics religions are nothing compared to the racial and sexuality that are being used to define them. for that matter it is starting to feel more like a party of token X, to say hey look we got x in our game look see.
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Yet there is no hispanic, pacific islander, etc iconic either so why not include them? and if you can claim gay is different than lesbian then black woman is not the same as black man so they are still excluded....So they must be all forms of gender/gay combos to make you happy? I want room to go beyond just this one facet of identities.So the iconics should have make-believe sexualities and genders to make you happy?If a large number of them were of one real religion i might start to wonder what they were pushing, same if the vast bulk were very anti religion. Instead they are a variety. And you may notice but not one is taking on a real life religion....Hey Andrew R, why aren't you offended by the fact that so many iconics are religious? I mean, by your logic one religious person among iconics is enough to cover all those christianislamjewsihwhatever out there, why shove religion down our throats? :)
No, I'm telling you that:
Black =/= hispanic, asian, pacific islander, etc
Just as:
Gay =/= lesbian, bi, transgender
Got it now?
Because, as a creative choice, Golarion doesn't have all the ethnicties of our world. It has several ethnicities and most of them are represented by iconics (Sajan, Alahazra, Kyra, Feiya, Reiko, Seelah). Look, if you're trying to claim that human iconics are not ethnically diverse, that's just untrue.
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and if you can claim gay is different than lesbian
LOL!
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Because, as a creative choice, Golarion doesn't have all the ethnicties of our world. It has several ethnicities and most of them are represented by iconics (Sajan, Alahazra, Kyra, Feiya, Reiko, Seelah). Look, if you're trying to claim that human iconics are not ethnically diverse, that's just untrue.Yet there is no hispanic, pacific islander, etc iconic either so why not include them? and if you can claim gay is different than lesbian then black woman is not the same as black man so they are still excluded....So they must be all forms of gender/gay combos to make you happy? I want room to go beyond just this one facet of identities.So the iconics should have make-believe sexualities and genders to make you happy?If a large number of them were of one real religion i might start to wonder what they were pushing, same if the vast bulk were very anti religion. Instead they are a variety. And you may notice but not one is taking on a real life religion....Hey Andrew R, why aren't you offended by the fact that so many iconics are religious? I mean, by your logic one religious person among iconics is enough to cover all those christianislamjewsihwhatever out there, why shove religion down our throats? :)
No, I'm telling you that:
Black =/= hispanic, asian, pacific islander, etc
Just as:
Gay =/= lesbian, bi, transgender
Got it now?
but if you must have every flavor of the gender/sexual identity golfbag why not insist on every race while we are at it?
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It is when they are making that the sole defining characteristic. We do not have an iconic character that happens to be gay we have a GAY iconic that happens to be anything else. The iconics religions are nothing compared to the racial and sexuality that are being used to define them. for that matter it is starting to feel more like a party of token X, to say hey look we got x in our game look see.So, variety in religion is fine, variety in sexual orientation is bad?If a large number of them were of one real religion i might start to wonder what they were pushing, same if the vast bulk were very anti religion. Instead they are a variety. And you may notice but not one is taking on a real life religion....Hey Andrew R, why aren't you offended by the fact that so many iconics are religious? I mean, by your logic one religious person among iconics is enough to cover all those christianislamjewsihwhatever out there, why shove religion down our throats? :)
Kyra, Valeros, Ezren, Seelah, Imrijka are all heavily influenced by religion. Heck, Valeros is carrying around a holy symbol of his deity, and he's just a Fighter.
but if you must have every flavor of the gender/sexual identity golfbag why not insist on every race while we are at it?
You know, I'm not calling you names or anything, but referring to sexual orientation as a "golfbag" is doing wonders to prove that you aren't homophobic.
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Kyra, Valeros, Ezren, Seelah, Imrijka are all heavily influenced by religion. Heck, Valeros is carrying around a holy symbol of his deity, and he's just a Fighter.It is when they are making that the sole defining characteristic. We do not have an iconic character that happens to be gay we have a GAY iconic that happens to be anything else. The iconics religions are nothing compared to the racial and sexuality that are being used to define them. for that matter it is starting to feel more like a party of token X, to say hey look we got x in our game look see.So, variety in religion is fine, variety in sexual orientation is bad?If a large number of them were of one real religion i might start to wonder what they were pushing, same if the vast bulk were very anti religion. Instead they are a variety. And you may notice but not one is taking on a real life religion....Hey Andrew R, why aren't you offended by the fact that so many iconics are religious? I mean, by your logic one religious person among iconics is enough to cover all those christianislamjewsihwhatever out there, why shove religion down our throats? :)
And how much focus has been on that and how much has been on a multitude of gay iconics?
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but if you must have every flavor of the gender/sexual identity golfbag why not insist on every race while we are at it?You know, I'm not calling you names or anything, but referring to sexual orientation as a "golfbag" is doing wonders to prove that you aren't homophobic.
Gay, lesbian, transgendered (both genders) pre op, post op and no op, bi (both genders), eunuch, physically gender less, mentally genderless (for both physical genders) dross dressers (both genders, gay lesbian and straight, i cannot think of how many more varieties are out there. golfbag takes less space. Especially when after you have included every variation someone will inevitable complain that you left one out or did not use the in fashion name for one or more group.
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What "focus"? The only "focus" I can see is that recently we found out who is the homosexual iconic. That's about as much "focus" as that we recently found out what the real fate of Baba Yaga's daughters is. Or where the Elves really come from. Or what's the next AP.
Perhaps your problem is that we're even discussing sexuality of the characters? Well, if that's a problem for you, it's a problem, but it's just your problem. Why should I care?
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It is when they are making that the sole defining characteristic. We do not have an iconic character that happens to be gay we have a GAY iconic that happens to be anything else. The iconics religions are nothing compared to the racial and sexuality that are being used to define them. for that matter it is starting to feel more like a party of token X, to say hey look we got x in our game look see.Really?
How can it be the sole defining characteristic of any iconics when we don't even know which ones are gay? With the exception of Kyra and we only found that out recently.To the extent the iconics are defined at all, they are defined by things other than their sexual preference.
And how long did it take from her being the cleric to now being known as nothing but the gay iconic?
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What "focus"? The only "focus" I can see is that recently we found out who is the homosexual iconic. That's about as much "focus" as that we recently found out what the real fate of Baba Yaga's daughters is. Or where the Elves really come from. Or what's the next AP.
Count the pages of "homosexuality in golarion" now how many treads combined talk about any other major facet of character like race or religion. do the combined THREADS compare well to the PAGES on gay characters?
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And how much focus has been on that and how much has been on a multitude of gay iconics?
Kyra, Valeros, Ezren, Seelah, Imrijka are all heavily influenced by religion. Heck, Valeros is carrying around a holy symbol of his deity, and he's just a Fighter.
Countless threads, ample discussion, multiple books in print exploring that variety. I could go on.
Gay, lesbian, transgendered (both genders) pre op, post op and no op, bi (both genders), eunuch, physically gender less, mentally genderless (for both physical genders) dross dressers (both genders, gay lesbian and straight, i cannot think of how many more varieties are out there. golfbag takes less space. Especially when after you have included every variation someone will inevitable complain that you left one out or did not use the in fashion name for one or more group.but if you must have every flavor of the gender/sexual identity golfbag why not insist on every race while we are at it?You know, I'm not calling you names or anything, but referring to sexual orientation as a "golfbag" is doing wonders to prove that you aren't homophobic.
So you think they should all be represented, but you're ok with referring to them as a "golfbag".
...yeah, I still don't understand your logic.
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What "focus"? The only "focus" I can see is that recently we found out who is the homosexual iconic. That's about as much "focus" as that we recently found out what the real fate of Baba Yaga's daughters is. Or where the Elves really come from. Or what's the next AP.Count the pages of "homosexuality in golarion" now how many treads combined talk about any other major facet of character like race or religion. do the combined THREADS compare well to the PAGES on gay characters?
Ah, I see what your actual issue is. Your problem is that people enjoy debating sexuality. Well, sorry, no way you're going to thought police people around here, folks like talking about it, folks will talk about it. But that's nothing that Paizo is responsible for, unless your argument is "Paizo should exclude sexuality because including it makes people discuss it and I don't like seeing it discussed".
Good luck with that. Closing your eyes does not make things go away.
And how long did it take from her being the cleric to now being known as nothing but the gay iconic?
This is just simply not true. Kyra is not simply the "gay [sic] iconic", and she's known as "the cleric iconic" if anything.
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Gay, lesbian, transgendered (both genders) pre op, post op and no op, bi (both genders), eunuch, physically gender less, mentally genderless (for both physical genders) dross dressers (both genders, gay lesbian and straight, i cannot think of how many more varieties are out there. golfbag takes less space. Especially when after you have included every variation someone will inevitable complain that you left one out or did not use the in fashion name for one or more group.but if you must have every flavor of the gender/sexual identity golfbag why not insist on every race while we are at it?You know, I'm not calling you names or anything, but referring to sexual orientation as a "golfbag" is doing wonders to prove that you aren't homophobic.So you think they should all be represented, but you're ok with referring to them as a "golfbag".
...yeah, I still don't understand your logic.
Think about how many types of "white" there are. do we name them all indevidually every time or just say white? Are japanese, koreans, chinese, etc all the same? no but asian is easier to say. and since this group is so many so varied subgroups that it is so hard to call anything at all without offending some im going with golfbag. especially in conversations that seem to be about token examples. Pull out the token like clubs from a bag after all....
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What "focus"? The only "focus" I can see is that recently we found out who is the homosexual iconic. That's about as much "focus" as that we recently found out what the real fate of Baba Yaga's daughters is. Or where the Elves really come from. Or what's the next AP.Count the pages of "homosexuality in golarion" now how many treads combined talk about any other major facet of character like race or religion. do the combined THREADS compare well to the PAGES on gay characters?Ah, I see what your actual issue is. Your problem is that people enjoy debating sexuality. Well, sorry, no way you're going to thought police people around here, folks like talking about it, folks will talk about it. But that's nothing that Paizo is responsible for, unless your argument is "Paizo should exclude sexuality because including it makes people discuss it and I don't like seeing it discussed".
Good luck with that. Closing your eyes does not make things go away.
Not at all, if anything we should discuss more sexuality than just homosexuality. there are so many more things to human sexuality then just gender after all.
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Think about how many types of "white" there are. do we name them all indevidually every time or just say white? Are japanese, koreans, chinese, etc all the same? no but asian is easier to say. and since this group is so many so varied subgroups that it is so hard to call anything at all without offending some im going with golfbag. especially in conversations that seem to be about token examples. Pull out the token like clubs from a bag after all....
...really? There are entire nations that are literally themed on certain real-world ethnicities. Not all of it makes it into the iconics, but when there are literally entire nations of Golarion dedicated to exploring a culture inspired by a real world one, especially those of Europe, Northern Africa, and Asia I think we can give Paizo a break.
(And for the record, I think that some of the writing (especially writing discussing the peoples of Arcadia as "savages", which I remember reading somewhere) is problematic. But misinterpreting Viking culture is far less problematic than misinterpreting the cultures of historically oppressed groups in (Western) society like Native Americans and Africans.)
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Mikaze, I want your morphgendered tentacled Celestial slashfic so badly.
Sorry, due to it fulfilling a request you'll have to settle for just cis-gendered Bonuwat dude X cis-gendered cecaelia dude fic. :(
For now...
Edit-dammit I already have ideas on how that could work too. Dammit Gorbacz.
Edit2-first I'll need Chronicles of the Righteous.
Well it seems people have said pretty much everything I was going to say to andrew, but I do find it funny that he thinks the game needs to cater to furries more when there are rules published in the main rulebook line for playing as seductive anthropomorphic animals.
Also: he has the face of Satan. Just throwing that out there.
Arrow, if they were trying to be inclusive, surely including as many groups as is possible without causing a problem would be the way to go? Box ticking and tokens have been discussed earlier in the thread and there's no hint that that's what's going on here, so why would having such a range be a problem?
Jeez this thread blew up while I was gone.
Yes it did! Honestly, I think it's gone pretty well over all. This type of thread can get so much uglier so easily.