Whirling Dervish's page

Goblin Squad Member. Organized Play Member. 80 posts (124 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character. 1 alias.


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I totally get that, Styrix; it was just that in my game, the wizard was consistently “boring and fast” (cantrip + Stride, usually, unless a spell was particularly appropriate). Other characters were a better mix of boring and fast + “oh, I can do THIS”!

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Personally, I’d like to see the Rogue Dedication offer access to Finesse Striker (the rogue Dex to damage ability) rather than Surprise Attack. This small change opens up a wealth of builds (e.g., Dex-based but still melee paladins, fighters, barbarians, rangers...)

If this were to happen, I’d also like to see the addition of Thievery as a signature skill change to a choice between say, thievery and stealth.

I’d be interested if folks think this is unbalanced. I just think it opens up a lot of new options in a single simple way.

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I'm with the OP on this one. Prestidigitation is and never has been OP, it's just been fun.

If you're going to theme it differently for each of the four traditions, then give each of them an equal number of different things they can do, or else separate them out.

5E does this very nicely with Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy, and Druidcraft. They hit the nail on the head with those spells, I have to say.

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Ramanujan wrote:

Metamagic kind of adds this to every spell.

Or would if there were more 1 action spells.

True, but it’s very same-y. And I think that metamagic would see more use if there were different versions of spells that require different numbers of actions. Here’s another example of a different flavor of this idea with the cantrip Forbidding Ward (which is one of my favorite new cantrips):

Forbidding Ward
Casting Somatic Casting or more
Range 30 feet; Targets one ally and one enemy
Duration concentration, up to 1 minute
Somatic Casting, Verbal Casting You ward your ally against the attacks and hostile spells of the target enemy. The target ally gains a +1 conditional bonus
to Armor Class and saving throws against the target enemy’s
attacks, spells, and other effects.
Somatic Casting If you have a Forbidding Ward already active, you may change either the target ally or target enemy, but not both. This counts as Concentrating on the spell.
Material Casting, Somatic Casting, Verbal Casting Take the Assist action without meeting that actions’s requirements. Use your Spell Roll instead of making a melee attack. If you have a two-action version of this spell active, this counts as concentrating on it.

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Don’t nerf the cleric — buff the sorcerer!

Definitely agree with the assessment here; sorcerers need more flexibility if they’re going to be more limited by their spontaneous casting choice. Consider giving sorcerers more ways to modify their spells in interesting ways, beyond even what should be general metamagic feats.

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Heal is a really cool spell because it takes advantage of the three action system in a really interesting way. Not enough spells do this!

I’m not saying that all spells should have 1/2/3 action versions, but more certainly should, especially cantrips which need to be more of spellcasters’ bread-and-butter. This lets players do interesting things with fewer choices during character creation/spell selection. And then interactions with metamagic become more interesting too!

Here’s an example with Ray of Frost:
One Somatic Action: Melee range only
One Somatic, one Verbal: As written
One somatic, one verbal, one material: The Target also takes 1 persistent cold damage

Simple changes like this make players feel like they have more agency and choice in what they’re doing, and I think that the three action system feeds into this beautifully.

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Agreed; dynamism and complexity is exactly what martials need a little more of, and the three action system is perfect for giving them that. I don't know if it would end up slowing down play *that* much; casters are already in the same position in terms of "which spell should I cast, or should I just cantrip".

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Fuzzypaws wrote:
Alchemaic wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
The Fighter already has a cool new thing it can focus on if they leaned into it, the stance and combo system. They can build the fighter's special stuff around that and becoming more proficient in more gear more quickly than other classes.
God yes, that would be fantastic. Right now the Open/Press system feels like it was designed to be more of a restriction than an option. Making Fighters feel more dynamic by making it more of a focus of design would be great IMO.

What I think would be great is if instead of one feat per one maneuver, and each maneuver being locked into open, press or finale, they did one of the following:

  • Each feat lets you select several maneuvers off a level appropriate list; OR
  • One feat per maneuver but the maneuvers are much more flexible, able to be used with different effects as either an opener, press or finale; OR
  • Go all the way, give a "maneuver progression" by level where you select them according to your desires like a caster chooses spells. Maneuver class feats here are used to get extra maneuvers beyond your progression or to open maneuvers for a new style / weapon family beyond what you started with, as well as stances of course.

As long as they don't go animu they can capture everything good about the Book of Nine Swords without turning people off. (Disclaimer: I actually like animu warriors, I'm just mindful of prevailing opinion, so they should avoid that feel at least until a splat book.)

Exactly this, couldn’t agree more. The reason casters are powerful is that they have options. Anything that increases players’ options and sense of agency is going to make a class more fun.

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Exactly. Make class feats for unique features, and create pools of feats for more common uses. If you want to restrict them for casting classes for some reason, do it based on spell list. “Must have access to Arcane or Occult spell list”, for example. If you want to restrict them for certain martial classes, give it “Key ability: Dex” as a requirement or “Key ability: Str” as a requirement. Although then you’d want to make sure each class has a choice of which stat is their Key ability.

As an aside, I’d say another thing to do for these combat feats is to create more that add action options, in the vein of Sudden Charge. Creating new opportunities is what makes for a fun feat.

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Amazing idea. Now let’s apply it to other classes, too! The Druid has definitely (IMO) hit the nail on the head in terms of design space for classes, the other classes should definitely be mimicking it.

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Elvenoob wrote:

First, to explain the problem.

This leaves the ACTUAL class feat design space for things which interface directly with the class' features or flavour.

And, most importantly, this approach doesn't arbitrarily prevent people from making a Sword & Board Ranger or an Archer Paladin, or any similar flavours which might be slightly less common than your generic dual-wielding rangers or whatever, but is no less valid despite that.

It's definitely possible to create a solid class identity for every class without randomly gating off certain playing styles just because they're not the most common.

Yes, yes, yes. And do the same for casters, too. Leave the class feat design space for interacting with and creating unique class features. I think this is emblematic of why so many people see the general feats as being kind of lackluster — there isn’t enough design space for them when you make all of the interesting and useful feats class feats.

The theme of PF2E to me is modularity, but the current ruleset doesn’t go far enough to embrace that idea, it just tips its toe in.

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Edited the wand of bless found in room C10 for my game to make it more contraband-y and tie into Klades later on. Thought others might enjoy:


This is a wand made of black stone. On its base is a skull whose eye sockets are threaded through with barbed chains [the holy symbol of Zon-Kuthon]. It is a wand of bless, with 18 charges remaining.

A note is attached:
"Warned Klades again (Sar 28) regarding contraband items. Claims wand isn't his but was found under a loose stone in his room."

Severe thread necro, but can I ask what you’re referencing, YogoZuno? What’s their method of entering an amnesiac state? Or message me if you don’t want to spoil?

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I'm planning this campaign out now, and is it just me or does the final fight seem underwhelming? Ariadnah isn't really a "recurring" villain apart from her legend being discussed in books 1 & 2, and the star seed is cool but not exactly an evil genius behind everything.

I'm thinking of replacing Ariadnah with some kind of representation of Count Lowls' spirit or mind that is attempting to complete the ritual while his body has been subsumed by Xhamen-Dor. This necessitates changing some of the lore around her to reference other events instead, but that's outside the scope of this post.

Rather than a bard, I'm thinking of having Lowls be a silksworn occultist 16, with some kind of template that grants incorporeality to represent it being his spirit rather than his body. Ghost, animus shade, and a few others seem like great options, and a silksworn occultist not only works well thematically, but is a pretty potent support caster for the star seed.

Anyone else have thoughts about this final fight for what you did, or know of any templates that would be appropriate? Thanks!

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Given that it's unlikely the Eldest (gods of the fey) will receive the deific obedience treatment any time soon, I've gone ahead and tried my hand at creating one for Magdh, the seer of the eldest.

I'd greatly appreciate any feedback, including any balance needed or rules clarification. Thank you!

Link: Deific Obedience for Magdh

Bumping for my own curiosity.

Best way to get around supernatural darkness I've found is with an elixir of darksight, out of the ARG.

That was my thought too. Slightly less cool than I'd hoped!

Anyone think otherwise? There might be a RAW interpretation of the text above as being the latter, but I think it's probably not RAI.

Considering making a Drow Antipaladin, and I'm a little confused about the text of their favored class bonus... any help would be appreciated. The text is the following:

Advanced Race Guide wrote:
Antipaladin: The antipaladin adds +1/4 to the number of cruelties he can inflict.

Does this pertain to the number of cruelties available to the antipaladin (letting them pick an additional cruelty) or does it mean another cruelty is actually inflicted when using Touch of Corruption? The first interpretation seems more reasonable, but the second is of course more powerful.

Any thoughts welcome!

Lastoth wrote:
Of course if you're already taking eater of magic you had the superstition power before this (hopefully in conjunction with the human FCB) and you were making your saves anyway. A feat for a very rare +2 is sort of wasted on this guy, he won't need it.

Of course, you could always intentionally fail the first save to pass the second one with an extra +2. Free temporary HP any time you get hit with a magical ability isn't too bad.

The Eater of Magic barbarian rage power allows a reroll on a failed saving throw versus spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Combine that with a Dual-Cursed Lame Oracle's Misfortune and immunity to fatigue and you've basically got a reroll versus all magical abilities (once per round) as you rage cycle.

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Glad you like it, Caleb!

I changed a few shop names here and there to suit my campaign, and added in some shopkeeps, but it should be a good framework for anyone wishing to adapt it. In my campaign (also Kingmaker), it appeared near the Ghost Stone after the party completed a ritual there (planar boundaries wearing thin and all that).

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I've put together a player-friendly document for my own use that others might find useful. It has some campaign-specific parts (such as the symbol on Aggys' cart), but it should be fairly useful for a number of people. I've taken out most of the "secrets" about each stall and presented them all for player consumption. Additionally, a colored map is included with tags for locations.


Camlo's Witchmarket

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Thanks for the inspiration!

I ran this last week to great success. I adjusted somewhat, making him a bit bigger, and made it so that there were multiple points of entry, or could be fought (poorly) from the ground).

Here's the Google doc I made:

Awakened Zosh'tar

(The name is also different for my campaign.)

I believe Paizo's policy is to not put out errata for their softcover books. So I think the only way you'll see one is of they ever do a hardcover anniversary edition style version like RotRL.

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Philip Knowsley wrote:
..care to share on the visions aspect of your post? Sounds interesting!

Of course! Please understand that they are tailored to my campaign, but I'll put them here as reference.

Related is my (incomplete) document about the spirits of the land (once again, inspired by these forums), so that's here too, though somewhat unrelated to "solving" the riddle of the veil. Keep in mind that I tailored the rewards of attuning to my group.

Spirits of the Stolen Lands

Story visions (so far):

Vision 1:


This vision went to the priestess of Desna in the group. Its intent is to show the need for both the torc of moonlit passage and burning wormwood in the ritual.

"Overnight after the Kankerata run, you have a vivid dream. In it, you are wearing a silver and jade necklace that depicts the phases of the moon. You are surrounded by an acrid black smoke on all sides, but above you see a clear, starry sky. The smoke is choking, but the stars and moon above are strangely crisp. You wake up after staring at the sky for a moment, choking and coughing as if your lungs were filled with smoke."

Vision 2:


This vision went to the group's rogue, who won the Kankerata Run. He was given the option to attune to Kankerata. It is meant to emphasize subtly the fresh earth of the Bloodfields. My players love putting pieces together, so I try to be a little vague often.

"The night following the Kankerata run, a dream comes to you. You are once more in the vast open plains of the Bloodfields, facing Talon Peak. An azure swallowtail butterfly lands on your shoulder, resting its wings peacefully. Suddenly, like a great leviathan rising from the deep, directly in front of you Kankerata breaches the soil, mouth agape. His jaws open wide enough to swallow a horse, and you stand there, frozen with fear. Before you are engulfed however, you feel yourself slip into the soil beneath your feet, narrowly avoiding the bullette’s attack. As soon as it came, it is now gone. Rising once more to the surface, you see the butterfly has moved, now resting upon the pile of disturbed earth left behind by Kankerata’s passing. You stare at it a moment in the utter calm of the fields, and then wake up as the butterfly takes flight."

Vision 3:


This vision went to the group's bard, the Kingdom's diplomat. The nod to his tusk (he is a half-orc) is meant to foreshadow the need for one of Zosh'tar's teeth.

"At night after the Kankerata run, you have a vision of yourself standing between the people of Varnhold and the centaurs of the Dunsward, holding each side at bay. As your words attempt to make peace between the two peoples, you see a small, azure butterfly light upon your right tusk. After you stare at it for a while, you wake up suddenly. Strangely, your tusk feels a little tingly."

Vision 4:


This vision went to the group's paladin of Iomedae, a recent addition. He came to the kingdom following a vision of a light behind a mountain (his invention), which I decided was Talon Peak. This vision was meant to reemphasize his earlier vision, while adding new information (it points toward both the locations of the Ghost Stone and the mudmen.)

"The night after the Kankerata run, the vision of the mountain returns. This time, you are standing on Star Bridge in Veridia (in my campaign, this is a bridge built to honor Desna at the Thorn River Ford; the line from this bridge to Talon Peak points toward the Ghost Stone and the mudmen), and notice the light is coming not from the mountain itself, but from behind it. A small, azure butterfly flits on the bridge's railing by your hands. Then you wake up."

Vision 5:


This vision went to the group's barbarian who has a bit of a thing for dragons. It's meant to hint at the upcoming battle they'll be having with Zosh'tar's remains (animated by our favorite necromancer).

"The night after the Kankerata Run, you have a vision of two glowing serpentine eyes behind a layer of shadowy smoke. The eyes glow brighter and brighter, but you still cannot see the creature's face despite the brightness. Eventually your entire field of vision is a bright green and you wake up. When you awake and rub your eyes, there are the remnants of a green glow around you in the shapes of butterflies."

Vision 6:


The final vision went to the group's wizard, and is too long to reproduce here. In it there were a lot of things; he had been considering an alignment shift and beginning to worship Cayden Cailean - those were major themes. Aside from that though, I hinted toward the miniature obelisk the group had found (and the wizard had held onto) among the mudmen in the vision, once again using the butterfly to denote significance.

Putting it together:


Kizakubwa is where most of the pieces come together. Following an offer of burnt wormwood and an ascension to the peak (the offering altar is below the final peak on a plateau with an elven observatory, but that's part of a different plot), the roc accepts tribute of a personal item from each party member. Because the roc is related to the First World, items of emotional significance are much like currency to it. (I plan on using this to foreshadow the Witchmarket later on). After each person submits tribute, the roc adds the items to its nest and bestows a vision upon all of them:

"As Kizakubwa screeches in appreciation of your tribute, your minds are all flooded with images. You see yourselves gathered in a circle around a tall obelisk, with (the priestess of Desna) seated in front of it. Before her is gathered a small collection of objects: The miniature obelisk you found among the mudmen is surrounded by fresh earth, and inside this circle of earth is a burning herb, smoking softly. (The priestess of Desna) waves a large black feather in her right hand, wafting the smoke up to the top of the larger of the twin obelisks. In her left hand she holds a wicked fang the length of her forearm. This she uses to pierce the skin of her right hand, allowing blood to drip into the fresh earth before her as she continues to fan the smoke. Suddenly, a light bursts forth from the large obelisk, going into the heavens. Clouds part above, and the landscape to the south of the obelisk alters, and a dry riverbed is revealed."

This riverbed leads eventually to Vordekai's river and his island. Unfortunately, the light is seen far away as well, and the entrance via the Valley of the Dead is now visible too. Xamanthe takes this route (like as written), and beats the party by a day or two to Vordekai's lair.

One other change to the lair is that the graveknight in the 6 player version is the remains of the centaur Ferralyn from the epic tale posted in the ethnography.

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Hi everyone -

First off, thanks for all your inspiration here Dudemeister, my players loved the run and I am using your trust score style of interaction. It's working great!

I wrote up a lot about the Nomen for my players to really get to know the centaurs and understand their rites and beliefs. After the run, I had Aecora and Tamerak (the centaur bard/ historian) relate their side of the history with Varnhold and their religious beliefs. They suggested to the party to commune with the spirits of the area to perhaps glean what may have happened to the Varnholders. In my game, the centaurs do not know what happened and were in fact wintering east farther in the Dunsward when the vanishing occurred, so aren't really of much direct help.


They also know far less about Vordakai than as written. To them, he is but a figure in an ancient tale.

Aecora is heavily interested to know what happened to the people of Varnhold however, as she does not want the same to happen to her people.

Here is my google doc I made with all of the details of their religion, et cetera. I thought I'd share it with the community since I've taken so much from you guys!

Ethnography of the Nomen Centaurs

More info: GMs only!


Further, the ghost stone is much more important in my campaign. Its original purpose was to shroud the elven observatory on the top of Talon Peak from Vordakai's sight, but after the elves left for Sovyrian, Vordakai discovered the stone and perverted it to hide his lair instead. It therefore has markings in both Ancient Elven (Elven + Linguistics DC 25) and Cyclops. The effect is essentially an epic-like version of hallucinatory terrain that is difficult to break. Nyrissa provided Maegan Varn (the replacement for Willas IMC, Maegar's daughter and lead scout) with a ring that allowed her to see through the illusion and discover Vordakai's lair, and sent a dream to her that suggested she explore in that direction. This of course led to Vordakai's awakening.

For the PCs, seeing through the illusion will be much more difficult. Unless the specifically explore in that direction and make the Will save (DC 35 due to being a remnant of Vordakai's mythic power) to see through the hallucinatory terrain. Instead, they can break the spell by collecting offerings from the spirits of the area, and by conducting a ritual at the ghost stone to dispel Vordakai's illusion and find his lair.

The ritual involves a miniature version of the ghost stone found where the mud men are among the remains of an elven courier (he had an ioun stone that grants +2 to int skill checks on him that was granting the mudmen sentience after millenia of being buried in the bud here), burning wormwood from the Nomen burial grounds, a feather from Kizakubwa, fresh earth from the bloodfields, and a bone of the Linnorm Zosh'tar. Additionally, it requires a relic of the Nomen people (the torc of moonlit passage, as described in the doc above).

To aid the PCs, I'm having them receive visions from Desna (Mother Moon) after completing significant tasks. They all received one that spoke to their individual personalities after the Kankerata run, and each one hinted at a piece of the ritual. By communing with the other spirits (Mainly Kizakubwa, but Zosh'tar and the Nomen ancestors will be helpful too), they will learn more about how the ritual is done. They're vague, but just helpful enough.

Hopefully this will make them explore the area and learn the culture of the centaurs in depth, to truly appreciate the area. I'm doing this because my players very much try to solve most situations with diplomacy, and this adds a bunch of flavor and things to do other than combat.

Thoughts welcome of course! And thanks again Dudemeister for a lot of inspiration!

Edit: Fixed the Google Docs Link

Thanks for the suggestions all!

Good catch about the potential lack of a safe location, Mortalis. I think I may have it cast breath of life without the teleportation effect in that case. Not functioning is of course easier though.

Are - you're of course totally right. One of the things the player originally suggested was the reincarnate spell, as he really liked the idea of the amulet changing you into a nearby race to help you "blend in". (You'll notice the percentages are skewed to favor this.) I thought this was a little easier than that. Simply removing this effect would work well, but I think it might actually be more expensive if you did because of the dependency on the item the transformation creates (I wanted a balancing factor so it couldn't be used constantly).

Any thoughts on pricing?

Hi everyone - one of my players is interested in an item that acts as a bit of an emergency button should he die (he's a wizard). I came up with this, the Amulet of Second Chances. Thoughts on this item in terms of balance would be greatly appreciated, especially as far as price is concerned. If you'd like to alter spells or effects, try to keep it in a similar vein.

Amulet of Second Chances
strong conjuration (healing, teleportation) and strong transmutation; CL 13th

Slot neck; Price 60,000 gp; Weight 1/2 lb.

This simple golden chain holds a talisman in the shape of a chalice that is bejeweled with a hundred tiny diamond studs. Once per week when the wearer of the amulet is killed, precisely one round after his death (at the end of the turn of the creature that killed him, if appropriate), the amulet immediately whisks the wearer's body away to a "safe" location within one-third of a mile. ("Safe" is relative and up to GM discretion - it could be home if the wearer is nearby, or perhaps simply an unoccupied broom closet.) The wearer may not choose to stop this effect, as he is dead. Removing the amulet from his body within one round however (a standard action), will cancel this teleportation and all further effects of the amulet. Upon arrival, the amulet creates two additional magical effects. First, the wearer is affected by a breath of life spell, following all rules and limitations of that spell. If breath of life fails to revive the wearer, no further effects occur. Second, the wearer is affected by a randomized version of the alter self spell. The wearer takes on a new humanoid or monstrous humanoid form according to the table below, but this transformation takes 2d6 minutes (during which time the wearer is helpless) and lasts for 5+2d6 days as the wearer slowly reverts to his own form. During this time the amulet may not be used again. If a person removes the amulet while under its transformation, he gains two temporary negative levels that cannot be removed unless the amulet is put back on before the duration of the alter self effect expires. If he does not do so the negative levels become permanent, as does the alter self effect.

Further, once per month the wearer may activate the amulet's breath of life ability on another creature by placing its tiny chalice up to the creature's lips and mimicking a pouring motion as a standard action. During the month after this use of the amulet, it becomes completely inert and its diamonds become drab and dull. Worshippers of Cayden Cailean frequently fashion these amulets for foolhardy adventurers, with the chalice in the shape of a tiny beer mug.

Construction Requirements
Craft Wondrous Item, Extend Spell, Enlarge Spell; alter self, breath of life, clairvoyance/clairaudience, dimension door, status; Cost 30,000 gp

Table 1: Possible races
1-3; Human
4-6; Elf
7-9; Dwarf
10-12; Halfling
13-15; Gnome
16-18; Orc
19-21; Goblin
22-24; Hobgoblin
25-27; Kobold
28-33; other (see Table 2)
33-66; use previous race but sex is altered
67-100; use race nearest to where PC revives

Table 2: Other races
1; Centaur
2; Aasimar
3; Tiefling
4; Gnoll
5; Lizardfolk
6; Ogre
7-10; GM’s choice

Sorry to resurrect this, but in a similar vein, is Magic Missile + Laughing Touch a viable option? It would seem to be a no save, lose your standard action situation...

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Andrew R wrote:
Think about how many types of "white" there are. do we name them all indevidually every time or just say white? Are japanese, koreans, chinese, etc all the same? no but asian is easier to say. and since this group is so many so varied subgroups that it is so hard to call anything at all without offending some im going with golfbag. especially in conversations that seem to be about token examples. Pull out the token like clubs from a bag after all....

...really? There are entire nations that are literally themed on certain real-world ethnicities. Not all of it makes it into the iconics, but when there are literally entire nations of Golarion dedicated to exploring a culture inspired by a real world one, especially those of Europe, Northern Africa, and Asia I think we can give Paizo a break.

(And for the record, I think that some of the writing (especially writing discussing the peoples of Arcadia as "savages", which I remember reading somewhere) is problematic. But misinterpreting Viking culture is far less problematic than misinterpreting the cultures of historically oppressed groups in (Western) society like Native Americans and Africans.)

Andrew R wrote:
And how long did it take from her being the cleric to now being known as nothing but the gay iconic?

This is just simply not true. Kyra is not simply the "gay [sic] iconic", and she's known as "the cleric iconic" if anything.

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Andrew R, I think you're really missing the point.

Like someone said upthread, if you're really that interested in having an iconic that represents X, then push for it. I doubt anyone here will stop you. In fact, they might help you with it. A significant number of players are interested in seeing LGBT iconics, and Paizo has responded - if not due to a specific "I want to see Y thread", due to their understanding of the issues. If you can show that there is need for X iconic, then they might respond to you as well.

It's unhelpful to say "no, I don't want to see any iconics of type Y until I get my iconic of type X,"; instead you should be celebrating that people of type Y are being represented in tabletop gaming, while STILL PUSHING for iconics of type X that you are interested in. By coming after another minority group, you're just poisoning the waters for everyone.

(Also, to a few people upthread: weight does not equal health. And many problems overweight/obese people face are actually not due to their weight, they're due to social conceptions of weight influencing their behavior and mood psychologically, both on an individual level and because of how other people treat the overweight/obese. I'm not saying weight doesn't correlate with health, just please be aware that there are other factors before making blanket statements as always.)

Love love love the map! And I spotted her cart. :)

If you don't mind sending me a higher quality file/scan I'd be happy to at least colorize it for you.

My email:



JohnB wrote:
Ah - "Collaborative story telling" :) One style of play and GMing. Highly overrated in my experience. I played in a few games like that and most finished up with little consistency or believability.

...really? I think it's the best way to play, gets the PCs more involved in the story. But it's the GM's job to make sure it makes sense. Too many cooks and all.

But anyway. I think you have a good concept mcv. Just work with your GM to see of s/he has any advice or ideas. I know I always love it when players come to me with ideas for the story.

I like what you're doing here. I solved the problem by having Nyrissa need foci for her bottling ritual, and these foci must be related to the PCs. Really, she's manipulating them into helping her with the bottling ritual. She knows powerful heroes (the PCs) will one day come for her, and she's trying to head them off by trapping them in the Stolen Lands just before one of the crucial moments of the prophecy - them entering Thousand Voices.

These foci are tied to threads of fate related to the first world, and Magdh watches on with interest. She even helps the PCs subtly throughout the AP. It's a gentle chess match between Magdh and Nyrissa, with the PCs as knights, kings, queens, and pawns. Magdh needs them to make it into Thousand Voices and kill Nyrissa once and for all. Nyrissa is trying to uproot the Stolen Lands and present it (and the PCs trapped inside) as a trophy of her true power to the eldest.

That was my solution. I like yours as well because it gives significant interaction early on in the game, and explains Nyrissa's behavior.

Very cool! Looking forward to hearing about it.

This is what I am doing as well. Magdh is playing a large role in my game, in fact it was her who led the effort to imprison Nyrissa for attempting to peer through time (Magdh's domain). Nyrissa knows who the PCs are, and has from the beginning. She's actually grooming them for the final battle she knows must happen, but is hoping to prevail.

I did something slightly different though. Rather than a united kingdom, she needs very specific items as foci for her bottling spell, and they all have to be things that impacted the PCs in some way. So she needs them to go gallivanting across the region in order to create these foci.

I also foreshadowed with Realm of the Fellnight Queen; Rhoswen's realm is actually a bottled domain that was Nyrissa's first pass at such a spell (though on a much smaller scale). So my PCs have already been on an adventure on Nyrissa's bookshelf though they don't know it yet...

tonyz wrote:
Does he have a favorite spell? Kill the victim with that spell (lightning bolt, summoned air elementals, whatever it is.) The killer can use a wand or a scroll or something.

This is the direction I was headed in.


The person doing the framing is likely from his backstory (a Razmiran sorcerer-priest), so would be able to pull off a lightning bolt from a scroll or wand with no problem. I think I'll have him pose as a refugee from Razmiran coming to make amends (but secretly coming to get vengeance on the PC). I also like the illusion and disguise self angles of the story.

JohnB wrote:
How is Grigori doing in your world? I think I would be looking to him (or his masters) first.

What happened to my Grigori:


Grigori is alive, but has been banished from the kingdom for spreading sedition. I actually united him with the werewolf kingdom event, and had him poison Kundal (the werewolf) with an extract that made him turn into a were. The PCs never followed the right clues to figure this out, so without any evidence against Grigori other than his lies, they told him to get out of the kingdom and never come back. So he's certainly an option, I just think that he's not quite the right person for this (see above person from background).

Sesharan wrote:
I assume he has either a familiar or bonded object, yes? Steal one of those, and leave it at the crime scene. (If it's the familiar, it should be dead, obviously. Make it look like the victim killed it in the struggle.) There's nothing more directly associated with a wizard than their arcane bond- it should allow any scryers to identify him with certainty. Also, make sure you have a means of dealing with him submitting to magical lie-detection. Have the person framing him disguise themselves as him and purchase several potions of glibness and some bracers of the glib entertainer, or perhaps even the spellcasting service of a permanent glibness.

Great ideas. He has a bonded ring that would be quite conspicuous if missing. And I love the idea of a few potions of glibness disappearing from the local apothecary...

I have plans to frame one of the PCs in my Kingmaker game for murder most foul... he's expressed interest in going from CN to CG (and in worshipping Cayden Cailean), and I think one way for him to do that is to realize that people actually *could* see him as doing something so heinous, and correcting his behavior after a moment of realization. (He's in on this a little bit, but the details of how it will go down are in my control).

So basically, I ask of the amazing Advice boards - how would you frame a PC for murder (or some other heinous crime)? There are so many delicious ideas, I think I'll refrain for now from posting my own to see what you guys and gals come up with.

A little bit of background info:


The PC is an 8th level wizard of the Air school, and is Magister of the PC kingom. His pet projects are a recently-built Academy and meeting with the Old Beldame and other magic-users to trade spells, if you're familiar with Kingmaker. Most of that is irrelevant though. The character's personality is of the neutral-because-of-a-jaded-past variety, and is selfish but not unreasonable.

Thanks in advance!

The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Are you insinuating I am a jerk.

Not as long as you actually respond to people who ask questions in a nice way. I was more referring to the part up thread where she said that the guys stared at her blankly, basically. Forgive me for being glib in my first response.

The 8th Dwarf wrote:
If you as a random stranger walked up to me in a shop and asked if you could join my group the first thing I would say is I am sorry we are full and point you to the GMs looking for players notice board.

And that's perfectly reasonable. But earlier you said she was "creepy" for even asking.

The 8th Dwarf wrote:

So why should I be obliged to let you into my home because you asked me nicely.

The same goes for the guys from the example, they don't know you and you putting them on the spot and forcing them into a position where they have to try and explain why they don't want a stranger comming to their home is rude. They probably weren't ready for that kind of question from an older person...

You aren't obliged, and I don't think anyone is saying you are. You are obliged (in my opinion) to be a nice person though and make some effort to help the person in some way (by pointing to a gamers wanted ad or something, basically anything other than "No" and looking away).

What I said goes for the guys in the example too. They don't have to launch into an explanation for why, but they should have been able to help Avanna in some way other than looking at her blankly and saying "No...". It's basic social skills in my opinion. It's not like she's walking into their living room and sitting down at the gaming table before asking. She's in a game store, and is asking about playing a game. And I don't know what to say about "not being ready for that kind of question from an older person."

Don't worry Aranna. You are perfectly sane. Presuming you do not present yourself as a socially inept weirdo killer person, the Normal Human reaction should have been, "Oh! Let me see if we have room in our game, I'll talk to my group!"

The beauty of the response is that it's nice and friendly, but also noncommittal. There may be room, there may be not. But at least it makes the person not a jerk who scowls and makes the sign of the cross at people who ask to join games, and may even lead to a conversation(?!)

I use Roll20; it's browser-based and super easy to set up. Not as customizable, but it's fantastic to just set a game up. We have five players all over the US ad Canada, and myself as well. We use TeamSpeak for chat.


Great feedback, JohnB. I think I'm going to go with a bit of a hybrid of the two - ostensibly wealthy, but it's really just a show Baron Drelev has put on. I've already hinted at stops in river traffic, so perhaps Fort Drelev is simply on the wane.

Fairly easily, but it does reference the previous book (War of the River Kings) for some things, including Briar, the weapon designed to defeat the big bad. You could always just place it elsewhere though or do away with it entirely.

That looks nasty Orthos! Rigg is one tough cookie already, and adding assassin levels is just icing. My players never managed to kill him, so he will become a recurring villain. If suggest the same if you have a similar circumstance.

Sharasvar - It sounds like you and I think alike! The Drelev group is referred to as the "Surtovan Envoy" in my campaign; Pavetta and Hannis are minor relations to Noleski, and this group was essentially "his entry" into the land grab, thinking that controlling the East Sellen would be key. The PC's group was Jamandi Aldori's "pick", similarly.

I'm not sure if I'll be quite so overt with Varn warning them... I'm not sure how he'd even know, really, being on the other side of the PC kingdom. I think I'll steal your settlements, however!

GM_Solspiral wrote:

Also remember the courts belong to kings bit in the river freedoms. If they visit Drelev he has a huge social advantage. Maybe he shows them his powerful castle, or shows off some of his magic items.

This is a really good point. I need to start invoking "Courts Are for Kings" more often. :)

Thanks for your feedback, Redcelt.

I plan on running it as an abstract RP encounter, rather than with full maps, etc.. Basically, if they do pursue going to Fort Drelev, I want to use it as a foreshadowing opportunity to acquaint them with the area before Book 4. I've already done this for Varnhold, the PCs were invited to a banquet there to celebrate Varnhold's first anniversary as a barony. I'm not worried about them not pursuing the Varnhold thread, they're already focusing expansion east and planning on creating a trade route through the pass. This will make it all the more conspicuous when its townsfolk suddenly go missing. (As a side note, I plan on running Dudemeister's Brevic Betrothal after Book 3; Varnhold has not been doing so well financially since the PCs last visited on its anniversary.)

But back to Drelev - I like your idea of smaller ancillary tribes. I might have them meet these peoples if they do pursue the barbarian thread. I'll also try to impress on them that this area is much more dangerous than the Narlmarches to discourage them from too much combat. I'll have to find the ballad; that's a great legend to spread since my party has a bard as well.

I'll probably have Drelev be a little annoyed with them as you suggest, particularly since river traffic is waning somewhat (due to boggards). This will be exacerbated if my PCs open up locks on the Shrike to create a new efficient trade route to Restov like they plan to.

I did some poking around on the boards, and didn't see too much about this yet. My players have just completed RRR and have a bit of kingdom building downtime ahead of them. One of my player characters, a shamanistic barbarian, is interested in meeting the Talon Lord Barbarians (I changed the name because tigers in this region seemed silly to me) after hearing rumors of their existence to the west. I'm thinking meeting them would be good as part of a side excursion to visit the Drelev Demesne a little early. Namely, before Pitax has had too much influence on the area.

The players have met the Drelev Company before in Restov when the charters were given, so they at least would recognize Hannis and Pavetta, as well as Imeckus Stroon (as well as Terrion Numesti and Satinder Morne; IMC they were hired by Hannis to come along on their charter, and is the reason they are in the Demesne to begin with). The question is though, what would Fort Drelev look like before Irovetti's minions (that is, Armag) cowed it?

I'm conceptualizing it as a fairly prosperous port city on the Slough, bustling with trade and basically having the city have a lot more life than described in the AP. Drelev isn't really a bad guy in this case, he's just a little apathetic, and has spent a lot of the kingdom's money on luxuries for himself (when welcoming the PCs, he will be sure to impress upon them how prosperous his nation is). I'm also thinking of adding a few small settlements in the areas nearby, like a small town on Wyvernstone Bridge, for example.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or advice on how to proceed? Did anyone else encounter a similar issue? Further, how should I deal with meeting the barbarians? I'd like to keep the Black Sisters out of the picture for now, perhaps hinting at "wise women" who assist Armag (would he even be called Armag at this point?)

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