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After hearing the podcast and reading the blog post, there was something I wanted to bring up. I've been playing PFS since season 0 and GMing for almost that long and I really like the faction missions. I think they're part of what makes PFS fun and they're one of my favorite parts of the game. I'm actually making my first boards post ever so that I could respond to this:
"There will be a fundamental change in how faction missions work in scenarios. The biggest change is that individual scenarios will no longer provide faction mission handouts except in rare circumstances"
1. Faction missions allow players to connect with their faction leaders. Because they don't appear often in scenarios, the faction missions are what allow players to learn about their faction and its leaders. You learn about the Paracountess and Madris through their missions and how they address you. Without the missions, players will lose that connection.
2. Faction missions also allow for really cool layers in the meta-plot. I love that parts of season four were foreshadowed in the faction missions for season three and that important parts of season two were present primarily in the faction missions. It allows for a lot of different agendas in the season plots which makes for more complicated and better plots.
3. The layers allowed by the faction missions also reward GMs because you are able to see the plot from different angles. This means you can learn more about the Society and its politics by GMing, which is fantastic.
4. Faction missions give new players something to directly connect with. They can hold the paper in their hands and get a better idea of what they should be doing in the scenario. Without the missions, I think new players will have a harder time earning their prestige at all, since they might not know the gaming tropes that will help them get the "secret mission" prestige.
5. With only 24-28 scenarios per year, making each scenario deal with one or two factions will result in only 3-6 play opportunities for each faction per year. I've loved the Chelish focus in "The Disappeared" and "Fortress of the Nail"…but I don't have any Chelish characters, so I was glad there was something for me to do too. "The Fortress of the Nail" faction missions even give you hints to how the Society functions as a whole, which is fantastic. I also don't think it will be enough to engage new players if they only have a chance of doing their special missions a few times a year.
6. Finally, the faction missions connect players more deeply with the campaign world. They give characters a variety of motivations while all still working without in the society. I really enjoy the flavor that it adds and think that the faction missions make the game more fun.
In five years, I've played every scenario and almost every faction. I think the campaign will lose something without these elements.
Thanks for making it through the wall of text
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4. Faction missions give new players something to directly connect with. They can hold the paper in their hands and get a better idea of what they should be doing in the scenario. Without the missions, I think new players will have a harder time earning their prestige at all, since they might not know the gaming tropes that will help them get the "secret mission" prestige.
I agree very much with this. If you guys absolutely feel the need to phase out faction missions, maybe you could lose them in the higher tier stuff, but the 1-5s could keep them? A few GMs in our area go to the trouble of printing them in color and cutting out along the jagged parchment-background edges to give them that "real" feeling, and I've seen it have a serious impact on immersion for new players.
In five years, I've played every scenario and almost every faction. I think the campaign will lose something without these elements.
This isn't hyperbole, by the way. JadeS was the first person I played under at a local game day, is one of the most prolific GMs in the region, and actually has played all of the scenarios.
Edit: Wait, is prolific the right word? Umm ... you know what I mean.
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Hear hear! Save the faction missions!
I think having only one "second PP" condition in each scenario, and on top of that keeping it a secret, will have a detrimental effect on the campaign. Each faction should make an appearance in each scenario, even if only through a short letter handed to the players. This will definitely help new players get accustomed to Pathfinder Society, and help to keep them more invested in why their character is a member of the Society.
John Compton, during the podcast, talked about how he dislikes players asking if they saw "one of these" and holding up their faction sheet, and how he dislikes that faction missions often have obvious goals. I actually don't have a problem with this. I think that it helps create a good bridge for new players into the campaign by giving them clearly defined goals and setting their expectations for how their faction operates. In my opinion, it actually adds to the role-play opportunity.
Perhaps a better solution than throwing out the faction mission system completely would be to have fewer and more complicated faction missions per scenario in general, but to have more inter-faction alliances happening?
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One thing MJM have not addressed yet is what will happen with those extra pages in the scenarios? Are we getting a few more pages of content each scenario? Are we getting more player handouts? Or is it getting padded in with more marketing or just being cut out?
If it is any of the first ones, I am all for the axing of faction missions as we know them now. They were cool as a newbie, yes, but I grew very tired of them after a while.
Honestly, (season 4 is better about this) the faction missions are NOT always clear about what they want you to do, especially back in seasons 1-2 where we had two missions per scenario. One of the two was always seemed to be obscure and esoteric.
I do feel the same as John mentioned on the podcast. I hate having to go into a dungeon and every time I GM I get a player going "is there a tabard with a lion in here? No? ok." Next room: "Is there a tabard with a lion in here?" ad nauseum. Compounded by having 2-3 players doing the exact same. Ugh.
I think the new system has a lot of potential, and am willing to give it a season to see how it goes. MJM have demonstrated that they listen to feedback, and I am sure if the new system is a disaster and is not well received they will reconsider again.
I hate to ask, but what are the specific changes that are being proposed? I'd like those to be put up front and I'm not keen on them myself.
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I hate to ask, but what are the specific changes that are being proposed? I'd like those to be put up front and I'm not keen on them myself.
It's on Wednesday's blog post:
There will be a fundamental change in how faction missions work in scenarios. The biggest change is that individual scenarios will no longer provide faction mission handouts except in rare circumstances. Scenarios will be written with the Pathfinder Society's goals in mind first and foremost, and many will also involve the specific interests of one or more, much like Pathfinder Society Scenario #4-11: The Disappeared and Pathfinder Society Scenario #4-13: Fortress of the Nail involved the entire society working toward a goal that had special significance to members of the Cheliax faction. Choices and successes will matter and we are instituting additional reporting conditions that will allow us to help the player base shape not only the future direction of the campaign, but also the fundamental beliefs and directions of their own factions.
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If it is any of the first ones, I am all for the axing of faction missions as we know them now. They were cool as a newbie, yes, but I grew very tired of them after a while.
CRobledo, the issue is that while you are now experienced and bored with faction missions, we want to have something like faction missions to help grow the community. You even admitted that they were cool for you when you were a newbie; why not give incoming newbies something cool too to get them into the community and help them learn about the world?
I hate to ask, but what are the specific changes that are being proposed? I'd like those to be put up front and I'm not keen on them myself.It's on Wednesday's blog post:
There will be a fundamental change in how faction missions work in scenarios. The biggest change is that individual scenarios will no longer provide faction mission handouts except in rare circumstances. Scenarios will be written with the Pathfinder Society's goals in mind first and foremost, and many will also involve the specific interests of one or more, much like Pathfinder Society Scenario #4-11: The Disappeared and Pathfinder Society Scenario #4-13: Fortress of the Nail involved the entire society working toward a goal that had special significance to members of the Cheliax faction. Choices and successes will matter and we are instituting additional reporting conditions that will allow us to help the player base shape not only the future direction of the campaign, but also the fundamental beliefs and directions of their own factions.
To expand upon this, what are the new plans for PP?
So... The mechanical identity of my faction is mostly scrapped to me and I'm now only a member of the society. Great... Why axe factions to begin with if they are going to matter less? Its also a bit of a sting that I'm going to work for other factions more often, when I am not actually interested in all of them.
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To expand upon this, what are the new plans for PP?
So... The mechanical identity of my faction is mostly scrapped to me and I'm now only a member of the society. Great... Why axe factions to begin with if they are going to matter less? Its also a bit of a sting that I'm going to work for other factions more often, when I am not actually interested in all of them.
The new plan for PP is that you will get one PP for completing the main mission, and an extra PP if you complete a "secret goal" that is not told to you during the mission briefing. There will only be one "secret goal" per mission.
This will create a problem for new players, I think, as they may not be well-versed enough in gaming tropes or the Society in general to find the secret missions. And how will they learn without being able to observe how the Society directly operates (such as through Faction Mission handouts)?
MrSin, I completely agree. Other organized play campaigns in the past have run into issues with "my character wouldn't be doing this mission at all"; the faction missions allowed a way around this issue. And with the proposed system, your faction would only be involved in approximately 3-6 scenarios per year...
I'm in favor of keeping the old faction mission system. Why not simply have fewer faction missions per scenario, and have some factions working together in each? For example, Andoran+Silver Crusade (freeing slaves and bringing justice) or Andoran+Cheliax (slaying some demons) or Taldor+Sczarni (smuggle some goods into Qadira).
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CRobledo, the issue is that while you are now experienced and bored with faction missions, we want to have something like faction missions to help grow the community. You even admitted that they were cool for you when you were a newbie; why not give incoming newbies something cool too to get them into the community and help them learn about the world?
MJM have said we will still have faction missions and handouts, just once in a while instead of every scenario. I think this fact alone will make those times when you DO get a faction mission even more special.
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CRobledo, the issue is that while you are now experienced and bored with faction missions, we want to have something like faction missions to help grow the community. You even admitted that they were cool for you when you were a newbie; why not give incoming newbies something cool too to get them into the community and help them learn about the world?MJM have said we will still have faction missions and handouts, just once in a while instead of every scenario. I think this fact alone will make those times when you DO get a faction mission even more special.
Do you have a link? From what I recall, they mentioned in the podcasts that faction briefings would be email-based and simply deal with the campaign as a whole, that missions would be secret, and that old faction missions would not need to be handed out any more in Seasons 0-4 (as they would not be important).
I think that having a faction mission is a handy tool for new players, as it gives them the ability to roleplay their incentive without having to read the entire Inner Sea World Guide first...
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Do you have a link? From what I recall, they mentioned in the podcasts that faction briefings would be email-based and simply deal with the campaign as a whole, that missions would be secret, and that old faction missions would not need to be handed out any more in Seasons 0-4 (as they would not be important).
It's right there on the blog post:
There will be a fundamental change in how faction missions work in scenarios. The biggest change is that individual scenarios will no longer provide faction mission handouts except in rare circumstances.
Like they said, certain factions will be featured in certain scenarios. My guess is in those scenarios, you will get faction handouts should you be of that faction. Actually, they even mentioned in the podcast that between all the first 3 inaugural season 5 scenarios, all 8 factions will be represented.
... Secret goal? What? You mean I don't even get to know what I'm doing? That's ridiculous! There's already so much I feel like I don't know because I'm usually on the players side of the screen. Now I don't even know the goal of the game? Isn't that a little... weird? I really hope that's not what they actually want.
I like my scenarios self contained. I'm not a big fan of having to look around for my faction's overarching goals. As time goes by it makes those scenarios look more aged too, and it makes it harder to dig for information.
I've done a lot of the old scenarios because I started late into season 3/early season 4. I prefer the merged missions myself, would be nice if they were designed to make more sense. Sometimes the Andorans aren't very nice and its a bit weird to work for them as a member of the Silver Crusade. Freeing the slaves is great! Wanting to destroy Taldor and Cheliax not so much...
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... Secret goal? What? You mean I don't even get to know what I'm doing? That's ridiculous! There's already so much I feel like I don't know because I'm usually on the players side of the screen. Now I don't even know the goal of the game? Isn't that a little... weird? I really hope that's not what they actually want.
One example they gave was that the primary mission was to make a rubbing (copy) of some ancient runes or carvings. Do that, bam you have earned 1 Prestige/Fame.
However if you were to go above and beyond what you are asked and examine the runes you realize they are in code. If you search around a bit more and find the key to deciphering the code and copy that too, you earn a second Prestige/Fame.
Not kept secret on purpose, but unknown by the VC and related to the overall goal is how I understood what they intended.
They also talked about putting and end to the "nearly omniscient" faction head phenomenon.
Still sounds weird to keep a goal outside of the players knowledge. I'm not a big fan of not knowing things. It makes them more missable, and worse it leads to me being more confused. I'm not quiet getting it maybe.
Of course our leaders are omniscient. We barely know them when you think about it...
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Missing things is ok. In the new system, you should get 1pp for completing the mission, and maybe a second one. So that means you will get 3/6 possible pp every level. Then, if out of three missions you only get one "secret" mission, you would have 4/6 pp, as intended and like modules do. So in theory, you should only expect to get the secret goal maybe one out of every three scenarios.
I'm ok with that. You don't need to get 100% of all prestige. It's nice, but not needed.
It is however ridiculous to me if I miss it because I didn't know what it was. Worse is the confusion part. I feel like it makes it so any meta-plot is harder to follow from the players perspective.
I forgot we all were supposed to work against each other and ruin each others factions missions. Instead of cooperate...
Edit: I should add, I don't think that's a good way to go about reducing the amount of PP gained. Not sure why you want to reduce it when it just goes towards consumables, especially when looking to reduce the WBL of everyone. That's another thread though.
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One point that I would like to clarify is the matter of Prestige Points in relation to faction metaplot events. The primary and secondary objectives are not necessarily faction-related, though I won't promise that they never will be. The primary and secondary objectives are primarily tied into being a good and proactive Pathfinder that helps the society (see my random example on the podcast about the urn and the ashes). The venture-captains and Decemvirate are most impressed by Pathfinder who go above and beyond in their mission by ensuring the job is complete, making as few new enemies as possible, or generally being awesome in some other way. Just as with the current model of faction missions, I am sure the authors will provide plenty of interesting secondary objectives over the course of a season's scenarios. These secondary objectives will not usually be explicitly stated for the players, but my intention is to provide at least a clue of what the secondary objective might be over the course of the scenario.
Comparing this to the flavor of Campaign Points would be a reasonable comparison.
Performing faction metaplot actions is tied to earning faction-specific rewards and periodically affecting the course and nature of that faction. Faction goals should be clear through a combination of faction head letters (akin to the ones sent out earlier this month), in-scenario interaction with faction-affiliated NPCs, and--when necessary--handouts. A player will not always be told at the beginning of a scenario that the scenario features a particular faction (though I understand our product pages will provide that information, as will the faction head letters), but the player should still have plenty of avenues for determining when a faction metaplot moment is happening.
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So, does this mean that my, say, Taldan PC will not be able to do something specifically for Taldor every adventure? That most of his adventures will have him doing things for the Decemvirate and not doing things specifically for Taldor?
Can you tell us one way or another?
-Matt
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John,
There's a distinct difference between the way we can give out overarching-faction-mission credit in Season 4 versus the way prestige worked in previous seasons. (I remember an Osirion PC hunting through the forests in "Pallid Plague", looking for something that might help the Ruby Prince. I awarded him a point of prestige, although I wasn't sure whether I should, because we're currently in Season 4, even if the scenario wasn't...)
It sounds like there's going to be an even more distinct change in flavor between Season 5 scenarios and those of previous seasons. I'm concerned that newer players are going to have a hard time understanding when they should be following a specific assignment, versus when they should cast their nets more widely. And I'd appreciate some guidance as to how the Season 5 procedures will be applied to tables playing older adventures.
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John, to be perfectly frank, I think this is a mistake. People LIKE being able to do something for their faction every time they play. Many character concepts don't work without it.
It sounds like we'll be working primarily for the Decemvirate, and only occasionally for various factions. How is a new player to get to know their faction without the constant interaction that "every scenario faction missions" provide?
This seems akin to simply removing the faction system from PFS, as in most missions, there will be little difference between an Andoran Pathfinder and a Chelaxian Pathfinder, especially among new players who haven't gotten to know their faction's goals.
If we are only interacting with our factions three to five times a year, they are soon going to be forgotten, and PFS is going to lose one of its unique benefits.
If the goal is to reduce PP earned, that is still very easily doable even if everyone receives a faction mission handout in every scenario. You could also even make the faction handouts in every scenario much less clear if you want to add some mystery. But I think that loss of the communication with a PC's faction leader is going to hurt the campaign.
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First, let me say that reducing the average PP earned is not a primary motivation for changing the faction system. In changing it in this way, though, it would aim to maintain the expected prestige earned per level (~4).
Let's look at some of the factors/desires that need to be juggled—both ones I see and ones that I have heard brought up:
1) Allow player actions to impact aspects of the campaign over the course of the season.
2) Eliminate habitually bizarre or nonsensical faction missions, especially those that rely on the faction leader having way more information than anyone in the society (the omniscient faction leader effect).
3) Reduce the burden on the authors to cram in a reasonable mission for every faction, freeing up word count for other scenario material.
4) Give faction missions a clear sense of gravity/importance.
5) Keep goals clear enough that players can realistically recognize and accomplish them.
5.1) Reduce/eliminate a steep learning curve to make sure that a new player can become involved in the faction system (perhaps an easy to learn, difficult to master effect?).
6) Ensure that players get enough face time with their faction leaders, either through faction missions every scenario and/or through some other means.
I'm sure there are a few other points out there, and we can fold them into the discussion as they come up.
What I have gathered from posts here and elsewhere is that faction missions are most valued by newer players as a means of getting to know their respective factions. That is not to say that more experienced player cannot appreciate the missions, but it sounds like after performing 20+ missions—a healthy number of which might feel more shoehorned into the scenarios than integral parts of a faction's goals—a player can tire of the often-uninvolved mini-missions. The proposed change to faction missions would decrease the overall number of missions but aim to increase the overall impact of each mission. Further, because Tier 1-5 scenarios tend to be very popular, I would like for those scenarios to also have that opportunity to impact a faction.
Having a faction mission for every scenario has its appeal, but from a development perspective it makes it very difficult to track how a faction might evolve. Likewise, it makes it very difficult to assign these important metaplot points to authors if each month there are sixteen new potential changes in the works. Imagine the tracking sheets for a scenario! As such, increasing faction mission impact requires some degree of reduced faction mission volume.
I understand that there's concern about knowing when to perform one's faction mission, and I have seen (and attempted to answer) confusion about what is a "secret" goal (a secondary party objective for a scenario) and what is a known goal (faction metaplot events). With the latter my aim is to provide several sources of information so that players can identify important faction opportunities. These include but might not be limited to the faction head letters through out the season, the recommended scenarios referenced at the bottom of a faction head letter, the scenario product pages, faction-affiliated NPCs (sometimes the faction heads themselves) directly interacting with the PCs in a scenario, and written in-scenario notes/handouts. Knowing what I know about the Pathfinder Society community, I'm sure that word of mouth will add to that list, but it's not a factor that I want to build around. As faction goals evolve or the faction accomplishes important milestones, I suspect the faction leader will let his or her agents know.
That's enough for the moment. By all means, keep the conversation going, and I shall jump back in to comment as time permits.
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So, from what you're telling us, it would be ideal to maintain PCs from a variety of factions, so that we can be sure to play the scenarios which correspond to each of our PCs? That we should each have an Andoran PC for the Andoran-focused scenarios, a Sczarni PC for the Sczarni-focused scenarios, etc?
For a particular faction, about what percentage of scenarios do you foresee us having something to do for our faction within the scenario? For my, say, Cheliax PC, about how often do you foresee him doing something for Zarta, compared to just working for the Decemvirate?
Will it be more rewarding to have a stable of PCs, so as to maximize one's opportunities to do something faction-related?
-Matt
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I would expect that there will be missions for more than 1 faction in any given scenario, and there may also be a way for characters to gain a 2nd PP who are not in the primary factions. I saw that stated somewhere.
I actually like the idea. Pasted on Missions are lame and break the flow of the game. SO I applaud the push to make them relevant and scenario focused. Also, I kind of like the idea of knowign which of my characters should try to play a mission. It gives me some direction as I have a lot of characters to choose from.
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What I'm worried about is the perfectionist gamer (that's a lot of us) not getting/not seeing what the actual faction mission (nonfaction mission?) is and spending a lot of time tilting at windmills.
There was one faction mission I recall to find the fungus. It wasn't somewhere you'd expect it. Every room we see we're looking for the fungus. Ever random item we come across that might hold it get investigated. The Skeleton's skull gets opened. The book shelves get searched. The room which gave a hint that it might be there was dissected.
Now I'm trying to imagining that, but instead of a simple strait forward Looking at it, I'm trying to see every sensible action a seeker of knowledge might take multiplied by every item they might take it with, trying to come up with what the scenario writer thinks has stood out the most. The skull can be searched, dissected, collected, studied, imprinted in a mold, checked for magic, spoken with, blessed, buried, destroyed completely, drunken out of, crushed into a powder and smoked (ok maybe i've gone past sensible but it would not be the weirdest thing I've seen).
The books can be collected, burned, read, copied,held up to the light, translated, searched for secret codes, checked for magic, checked for invisible writing,searched for paper bookmarks with important information, put under the light of the moon..... and thats just the first room.
People get paranoid because there isn't always a huge amount of heads up about the mission. It may rely largely on the DM (and thus vary greatly from one DM to another) and their own level of description. In your urn example for example, the DM may see (or have a description of) the urn as a heavy brass canister with a screw on top, something so heavy that the weight of the missing ashes isn't noticeable unless the party opens it up. Someone else may be thinking that their character should notice if the ashes were missing so they didn't bother to ask.
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I'd imagine faction things would be more akin to:
The Disappeared & Fortress of the Nail.
To some Extent the main mission in First Steps Part II: To Delve the Dungeon Deep.
It isn't going to be a simple macguffin hunt anymore. That's the whole point of the change.
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People get paranoid because there isn't always a huge amount of heads up about the mission. It may rely largely on the DM (and thus vary greatly from one DM to another) and their own level of description. In your urn example for example, the DM may see (or have a description of) the urn as a heavy brass canister with a screw on top, something so heavy that the weight of the missing ashes isn't noticeable unless the party opens it up. Someone else may be thinking that their character should notice if the ashes were missing so they didn't bother to ask.
This is a valid concern. GM's will need to prep better. The regions that tend to do game days where the GM's run semi-cold as a matter of course will probably need to be better organized.
But suffice it to say, that faction missions aren't going to be directly tied to prestige, and thus won't affect your characters build development.
The only thing failing a faction mission will affect (unless it is one of those scenarios where the primary and/or secondary pathfinder mission is also the faction mission (The Disappeared or Fortress of the Nail) is the roleplay of the evolution of that faction.
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There is another problem: not all GM's are created equal. I have been on quite a few runs where I had absolutely no clue what was going on. The main problem I've often seen is the GM being a crappy narrator. It's either he speaks in a barely audible mumble to talking so fast you can't make out what they are saying, sometimes both.
I like the idea of the faction missions being more dynamic and actually being used in the metaplot. The problem is this might cause too much of an administrative burden. One thing to remember is that you only have 4 hours to get the job done. Usually that involves the initial greetings/paperwork, a usually lengthy scenario introduction, three combats and the paperwork at the end. Time does go by fast.
During the podcast a problem was mentioned with the omniscient faction leader. This can easily be solved with more focused writing on the part of the developers. If you're going into a crypt you're not given something specific, you are told to keep an eye out for something in general.
I would also rather see the faction system stay the same rather than have the party members running off in separate directions chasing red herrings.
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One of the things I initially liked about faction missions is that they required players to pay attention to the world around them and interact with it to get their points. I had played through a fair amount of LFR tables were people just wandered in a daze from one encoutetr to the next never really understanding what was going on.
That said 10 factions is too many, 8 probably is as well. They are nice tools to give people a little bit of information about the world and get people to pay attention, but when authors are forced to cram so many into each adventure they lose their charm.
So while I'm against getting rid of them I'm in favor of the types of reforms talked about on the podcast.
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This is a valid concern. GM's will need to prep better. The regions that tend to do game days where the GM's run semi-cold as a matter of course will probably need to be better organized.
It isn't just a matter of prep. Some DM's hoard sensory info like a dragon holding gold, and you need to ask for perception/sense motive checks. Even if the dm isn't doing that, you don't know that they're not doing that until its too late.
It doesn't need a "mission here" sign, but the more obscure the mission becomes the more people are going to poke and prod at things that aren't the mission.
Some quests have a very general problem that could be solved multiple ways and the scenario asks for a VERY specific solution.
But suffice it to say, that faction missions aren't going to be directly tied to prestige, and thus won't affect your characters build development.
I think the new missions (non faction faction missions? extra credit quests?) are what get that second prestige point, so people will be that worried about them.
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The factions have taken far too much of the focus, I believe. Been in so many adventures where the party stops the main mission and waits for the Osirian (or whatever) to polish all the skulls in the graveyard before continuing.
There are a couple of scenarios where, I believe, that's the point. There are at least a few where a party who ignores their faction missions has a *very* easy time of it, but where the temptation is present to put the main mission on hold for just a minute or two.
GM: "The NPC has been attacked, and the assailant is escaping through that door."
Players: "The NPC is my faction mission!" "Mine, too!" "Yes, here as well!" "We can't just pursue the monster and leave her here, alive and in relative safety! We need to talk with her!" "I need her to sign some trade agreements!"
GM puts away the Chase Card deck.
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The characters are meant to be Pathfinders first and foremost, faction agents second.
Yeah, that's kinda what I'm afraid of seeing happen.
I don't know if I am alone in this, but being an instrument of pillage and murder for ten masked entities is pretty depressing. The Decemvirate have done very little if anything to inspire loyalty in their soldiers, while they continually amass more and more of the world's magical items. The Hao Jin Tapestry, especially if they succeed at unlocking the power to connect the Grand Lodge to anywhere on Golarion, would arguably become the most powerful magical item ever known, in that it would be an infinite-use, infinite-range teleportation effect. That right there would vastly increase the Decemvirate's military and economic power, granting potential for trade and conquest unseen in the rest of Golarion. And we don't even know what they want, beyond, as we know, more power.
It's pretty depressing, working solely for these guys. Being an agent of a faction, a group with ideals and goals, is much more interesting and motivating. Getting to do something, even if it is very small, for one's faction every session has proven to be much more interesting than being a mere soldier for the faceless Ten. It would be sad if that went away.
Yes, faction missions as they are have not been implemented very well in most cases, and can be a pain to handle as a GM. Getting rid of them and replacing factions with periodic relevant tasks padded by working for the Ten would be even worse.
That's why I'm asking Mr. Compton for some more detail on how it'll work, because I must be fearing the worst.
-Matt
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Personally, I think the whole faction things is a bit underplayed and poorly implemented.
Especifally in regards to the Faction message boards on this website.
Right now I see the whole Lantern/Sahdow/Lamplighter thing as having the possiblilty of being some sort of inter-Faction conspiracy that is going on "behind the scenes" of the in-game action. But right now, it does not seem to be a coherent sub-text, and the things that look conspiratorial are really only co-incidental.
I have surveyed the boards, and only the Taldor are doing a good job of this kind of thing so far. I think this behavior kind of comes naturally to players who like to pretend to be Nobility. The Shadow also seems to do better with in-charater messages on the board than most, but that only seemed to happen when they were threatened with extinction.
I would like to see players have more input into this level of the campaign. The fact they don't is their own fault, but they have no incentive, other than having fun, to do so. Encourage players to post in-character on the Faction boards by giving them Prestige Points for doing so.
The key here is to provide more direct interaction between Faction leaders and Faction members without making it a labor intensive thing for Paizo.
Also, there could be certain current season Faction missions that would tie into recently released modules. And there could be "generic faction missions" that support the stated overall goals of the Faction, and that can be achieved in almost any scenario.
Suggested generic Faction goals:
Artifact recovery (you find an artifact that wasn't the primary mission goal)
Artifact destruction (in the course of completing the primary mission you destroy a powerful artifact used by the bad guy)
Rescuing civilians/freeing captives/slaves (provided that the rescue was not the primary mission. We have all seem scenarios where you beat the bad guys and you get out alive, but some innocent by-stander(s) died in the cross-fire, or you just didn't get there in time.)
Document recovery or obtaining copies of documents (when you search a desk, and the GM tells you there is nothing of value there, but you take all of the "important looking papers anyway).
Monster elimination/pest control (Some goblin scenarios leap to mind, as well as general undead destruction, not to mention "Jack the Giant Killer" and "The Pied Piper of Hamlin". Perhaps you need to keep a body count to get this one, and it could take multiple scenarios to stack up enough bodies for 1PP)
So, for example, you might get 1 PP for killing the bad guys (mission specific PP) AND 1 PP for saving the good guys (Generic Faction PP).
And all of this could be channeled through the Faction boards, instead of being included in the mission modules, and whoevver is coordinating the Faction Board would have to "approve" and record the players actions(it would go into the player's file like a Scenario Chronicle, or as an addenda to one), after the Player reported said actions, on-line and in-character.
Just throwing out some food for thought, so if this doesn't all quite hang together, or make complete sense, it is because it is just brainstorming. If you like this idea, and can expand on it, or if you think are serious flaws here that I am not seeing, then shout out.
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The characters are meant to be Pathfinders first and foremost, faction agents second.Yeah, that's kinda what I'm afraid of seeing happen.
I don't know if I am alone in this, but being an instrument of pillage and murder for ten masked entities is pretty depressing. The Decemvirate have done very little if anything to inspire loyalty in their soldiers, while they continually amass more and more of the world's magical items. The Hao Jin Tapestry, especially if they succeed at unlocking the power to connect the Grand Lodge to anywhere on Golarion, would arguably become the most powerful magical item ever known, in that it would be an infinite-use, infinite-range teleportation effect. That right there would vastly increase the Decemvirate's military and economic power, granting potential for trade and conquest unseen in the rest of Golarion. And we don't even know what they want, beyond, as we know, more power.
It's pretty depressing, working solely for these guys. Being an agent of a faction, a group with ideals and goals, is much more interesting and motivating. Getting to do something, even if it is very small, for one's faction every session has proven to be much more interesting than being a mere soldier for the faceless Ten. It would be sad if that went away.
Yes, faction missions as they are have not been implemented very well in most cases, and can be a pain to handle as a GM. Getting rid of them and replacing factions with periodic relevant tasks padded by working for the Ten would be even worse.
That's why I'm asking Mr. Compton for some more detail on how it'll work, because I must be fearing the worst.
-Matt
If anything that is a very logical justification for keeping the Shadow Lodge around. Seriously, is writing two more paragraphs in each module really that much of a burden?
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I've never been all that great a fan of the faction missions; while they do add a fair bit of colour to the storyline, I feel it comes at too high a cost. All too often you end up with most of the players at the table sitting around twiddling their thumbs while one or two players search under all the beds for the missing teapot. That's bad enough at the best of times; with several of the season 4 scenarios there sometimes isn't really enough time in a 4-hour slot for the main mission, let alone for any side missions.
The best faction missions, in my opinion, were the ones in 'First Steps'; while the mission itself was somewhat faction-specific, it was the main storyline, so everybody at the table got to participate. Perhaps there could be one or two scenarios which were made up of just a selection of this kind of faction missions - perhaps even offering a choice from six (or eight ...) missions, with successfully completing four being enough to earn the scenario XP.
In fact this could tie in with another idea I've been mulling over - a set of 'Second Steps' encounters that taught up-and-coming pathfinders about the sort of problems they would run into in higher-level scenarios (flying monsters, darkness, damage resistance, and the like).
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John, to be perfectly frank, I think this is a mistake. People LIKE being able to do something for their faction every time they play. Many character concepts don't work without it.
It sounds like we'll be working primarily for the Decemvirate, and only occasionally for various factions. How is a new player to get to know their faction without the constant interaction that "every scenario faction missions" provide?
So you made a pathfinder agent that hates being a pathfinder? It's not like the fact that the decemvirate leads us is a secret, so you were not deceived into service. If a character you have joined the society and likes to be more of a faction guy, you probably should have expected to run into problems at some point.
Just like it is now, you should make characters that fit the campaign or face problems at some points. Just like knowing there are Paladins AND necromancers in the society should be in everyone's heads when making a character.
If your character concept is a diehard Taldan who only joined the society as a "spy" or something, maybe he is a better concept for Shattered Star or Reign of Winter.
Honestly your character's connection to their factions is/will be whatever you make of it. I have a Chelish tiefling who claims to be the illegitimate niece of the Paracountess. Sadly they have never met in person while I have been playing her but maybe at some point. I can always say in my backstory they did.
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Being a Pathfinder is not about following the Decemvirate's orders. Everyone joins for their own reasons, but the entire reason the Society was formed was so people could work together to EXPLORE and REPORT. The Decemvirate was only created to help facilitate that.
The Pathfinder Society is supposed to be a largely informal organization (which is why there isn't a more rigid ranking system, like the Aspis Consortium uses), so Pathfinders having their own agendas IS appropriate.
I thought the point of the pathfinder society was to give me something to do every Monday night. YMMV.
Isn't PFS the only OP play option? You are pretty much stuck with playing a PFS agent if you want to OP in PF. The factions give variety in what might otherwise be a "you are the Mission Impossible team" game. More Decemvirate focus and less factions means more MI team feel and less variety of motive. Not saying good or bad, but different. I guess good for player cooperation and not having weird breaks in the action. Bad for folks who are only PFS agents as a way to play and really want to be <faction> agents.
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I have only been playing since August of last year myself but in that time , I have found quite a few missions to be well.. bordering on crazy. Faction leaders know more about the mission than they should (and sometimes we are talking about places that havnt seen a living person in hundreds of years). Finding a yellow mushroom because it exists in the Tomb even though nobody has been in there.. is well silly.
Im happy with the secret objective idea. Id like to see the Vanities updated and expanded.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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I believe that the change is more than just not having "side quests" for faction for every single scenario. I kept thinking that the Faction missions were like the little side quests on the Final Fantasy games. I made Grog a Shadow Lodge guy specifically because a lot of the missions are sneaking type, a polar opposite of Grog.
Whatever goes on for the future, I am sure the factions will still provide some direction within the society, just not in the form if "get item A, it should be around where you will be (DM, it is in room B)."
I will miss the precious faction hand outs from the Paracountess, but I am sure the new direction will be more than collecting Teapots.