Lamashtu's do-gooders, Gnomes, and Goblin Babies.

[Mikaze]

Quantum Steve wrote:

I don't really get how players will invade a Goblin lair for no other reason than to take all their stuff, genocide everything that moves, but then say, "Oh noes! We can't kill the... Babiez!"

I can get, maybe, if one player feels sympathetic towards an idealized "cute, little Goblin baby," but if it's OK to kill Goblins, then it's OK to kill Goblins. And if it's not OK to kill Goblins, then why are you in their house taking their stuff?

General expectations in the AP the OP is in is that the party is there for reasons greater than just murdering people and taking their stuff.(Burnt Offerings, Rise of the Runelords)

And killing hostile enemy combatants doesn't make it okay to butcher their children. On top of that, alignment isn't hardwired into these races from birth. Otherwise we wouldn't have the non-evil examples of these races both as NPCs and all those goblin PCs in PFS.

Golarion is a setting where even the rare fiend can be redeemed. If a being made partially out of evil itself can turn, innocent children of mortal races that have yet to be indoctrinated into a monstrous culture certainly can. Heck, look at tieflings. They have the blood of fiends running through their veins. If anything they've got a larger handicap to struggle against. But we sure as hell don't view murdering tiefling babies as anything other than evil.

If Good and Evil are going to matter and mean something, they need to be more than the same thing in different team jerseys. Good people don't butcher children. Genocide and infanticide is what you see the evil folks doing. And hell, some of them turn their noses up at that.

And they sure as hell don't do it motivated by racial hate or expedience.

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

Heck, there's a lawful neutral goblin working for the Hellknights in Westcrown.

He even made his own little helmet too! :D

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

If this is still nearby to Sandpoint, that means you are only a day or so away from Windsong Abbey, which may very well be willing to take the babies in in the interests of getting a CN cleric of Lamashtu out of the deal.

BAM. Windsong Abbey is an excellent place to go for assistance for this sort of thing. The CN Lamashtan angle does play into it very well too, given previous precedence.

If you can work with your character going on hiatus for a time, volunteering to take the children out of the gnomes' hair to Windsong might work.

[blackbloodtroll]

I like the sound of that Windsong Abbey thing.

Once I can smuggle the babies out, I could put them with my Hyaenodon Chacha, so that the Ranger will stay away.

This could buy time until I could discover this Windsong Abbey.

Likely, they will given strict teachings in the ways of Lamashtu, though, the Oracle has much more caring view of her teachings.

[Mikaze]

Regarding Windsong Abbey:

Shattered Star spoilers:

An example of the "heretics" of evil gods that are welcomed there is a LN cleric of Zon-Kuthon who views his god as having willingly sacrificed himself to his current state to protect his sister Shelyn. His views and how he interprets Zon-Kuthon's aspects spin out of that.

If your oracle can present an interpretation of Lamashtu that can "play nice" with others, she won't have much of a problem getting into Windsong Abbey.

[blackbloodtroll]

Ah.

So, most of information on Windsong Abbey is in the Shattered Star AP.

That could be a problem.

[Mikaze]

The basic info about Windsong being a positive neutral-ground for the Big 20 faiths(minus Rovagug) can still be found in other sources that touch on Varisia(including the RotRL hardcover itself IIRC, along with the original volumes). Shattered Star just has a lot more detail, much of it primarily relevant to that AP's situation.

[blackbloodtroll]

Okay.

For awhile, before the babies can be safe, I was thinking of convincing the Gnome Ranger I had changed gods, to get him off my back for a bit.

He worships no particular god, but the facade of change may keep him away.

What is a good choice?

[Poldaran]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

What is a good choice?

Since you can't use Bluff on a PC in your games, it'll have to be someone believable. A god or goddess of family would be a good choice, I would think. Preferably someone with a focus on motherhood. A bonus if they also are relatively close to your alignment to add more believability.

[blackbloodtroll]

Luckily, neither the PC, or player, is very savvy on religion in Golarion.

Maybe, Desna?

That has a certain "ironic" flavor to it.

[Mikaze]

Desna might be a hard sell for folks familiar with her history with Lamashtu, but if that's not an issue here...

Desna would probablyl still be an easier one to pull off than the motherly Andoletta, considering she's pretty hardcore LG.

Then again, you're an oracle. And if you're leaning hard on motherhood being a major aspect of your oracleness, then Grandmother Crow may very well be a suitable patron to worship even alongside Lamashtu(for a crazy person), though this is going to be highly unconventional.

Also, Pharasma. She's not just about death, but birth. And maybe you would prefer to see these children grow to find whatever fate was intended to them rather htan having it cut short.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, crazy works for this PC. Wisdom is her lowest stat.

Pharasma may be easier to pull off. We have some Holy Symbols of Pharasma looted from corpses.

[Poldaran]

Now you just need to figure out a way to play out the "conversion". Maybe have the DM work in a meeting with a priest of the goddess you're going with or perhaps give you a reason for such a conversion through "losing faith in Lamashtu for encountering behavior X from one of her faithful".

[Kzkarz Gnomehammer]

Feed the gnome to the goblins.

[blackbloodtroll]

It has been considered.

I don't want to kill this player's PC, again.

[Poldaran]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

It has been considered.

I don't want to kill this player's PC, again.

I'd be more worried that he's setting himself up to kill yours. Then again, I'm paranoid.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, it might be suicide for him to try to kill this PC.

I will explain.

This Oracle PC was introduced by saving the survivors of the Gnome village, from Trolls, which all of the Gnome PCs, are from.

Now, the survivors are living on a farm partially owned by the Oracle.

Also, the Oracle is a relative of the Vhiski family, the leaders of the local Sczarni.

That, and she sleeps next to her loyal Hyaenodon Chacha.

So, killing the Oracle, is killing the Ranger as result.

[Poldaran]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, killing the Oracle, is killing the Ranger as result.

And you believe character suicide is beyond him if he believes his character would kill yours despite all this?

[blackbloodtroll]

That's a very good point.

My point was to not have either of us die.

So, even if I sacrificed my PC, it would still mean his death.

I hope to simply distract him, and keep the thought of Lamashtu out of his head long enough to save the babies, and the Oracle.

[Poldaran]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I hope to simply distract him, and keep the thought of Lamashtu out of his head long enough to save the babies, and the Oracle.

I think you have a shot at it in the short game. No idea how he intends to play out the long game, but based on what we know of him from this and previous threads, it's something I'd keep in mind.

It's really annoying that you can't use your character's superior bluff skills to convince him.

[blackbloodtroll]

I know.

Also, my masterful cooking skills don't seem to help either.

Seriously, he refuses to be healed by a wand, if the Oracle is using it.

[Poldaran]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I know.

Also, my masterful cooking skills don't seem to help either.

Seriously, he refuses to be healed by a wand, if the Oracle is using it.

This guy just can't help but make characters that don't get along with the party, can he?

[Rynjin]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I know.

Also, my masterful cooking skills don't seem to help either.

Seriously, he refuses to be healed by a wand, if the Oracle is using it.

If he was gonna be that much of a dick on every char I might make it my pastime to kill his characters or arrange for them to BE killed whenever possible.

[blackbloodtroll]

If I had the money, I would just buy a Philter of Love, or a Scroll of Geas, Lesser.

[Nearyn]

Take out a loan?

[blackbloodtroll]

Update:
WARNING: May contain spoilers:

So, I was able to convince the Ranger to not kill the babies, by telling him to embrace his inner monster, and kill the babies.

Risky, but it worked.

Now, I have adopted all the Goblins, and have named them Hadregash, Venkelvore, Zarongel, Zogmugot, Nightripper, and Abador.

Now, after clearing out the Glassworks, I have repaired and reopened it for operation.

We are at a "montage" point, so I have been having the Goblins work at the Glassworks to keep them busy.

The shrine to Lamashtu underneath has become a secret church, and I have been teaching the children of their racial history, and the ways of their god.
Of course, my view of proper worship is a bit different, and bit more, laxed.

[Khazrandir]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Update:
WARNING: May contain spoilers:

So, I was able to convince the Ranger to not kill the babies, by telling him to embrace his inner monster, and kill the babies.

Risky, but it worked.

Now, I have adopted all the Goblins, and have named them Hadregash, Venkelvore, Zarongel, Zogmugot, Nightripper, and Abador.

Now, after clearing out the Glassworks, I have repaired and reopened it for operation.

We are at a "montage" point, so I have been having the Goblins work at the Glassworks to keep them busy.

The shrine to Lamashtu underneath has become a secret church, and I have been teaching the children of their racial history, and the ways of their god.
Of course, my view of proper worship is a bit different, and bit more, laxed.

This is so funny! Awesome, I'm happy you were able to navigate this situation with your party. Thanks for the update.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, last time this player decided to go completely PvP, it didn't end well.

Maybe he didn't want a repeat performance.

[Heimdall666]

I posted this in another column under killing of prisoners, but its the precise example here.

"I had this exact scenario happen to my Paladin of Iomedae. While in game we aren't using a particular rules tome of faiths, I followed what I believed my character would follow as a part of his faith. In Rise of the Runelords scenarios there are goblin women and babies. Left behind us, they could A) provide support and info to enemies to our rear, or B) further the expansion of the goblin race, inherently evil. My characters choice when questioned as to the morality of their destruction, explained it as follows. He sees it as he is protecting future humanity from the goblin infection, but realizes the difficulty in other people living with the decision to kill them, as they are perceived as helpless non-combatants. I asked my GM, are goblins inherently evil? Yes. Can or have they ever been reformed, and how does my diety view their existence? As enemies of the church. So, I am obligated as a moral instrument of my diety who wields the sword of retribution to deal with this threat. Asked by a party member" What should we do about them?" I said, "Kill them, quickly (coup de grace)". He said, "Why don't you do it", so I did. I didn't enjoy it either as a player or as my character, but that's why Paladins are big and tough. The PC attempted to sway my oaths to protect MY innocents, Good humanity. I explained, "If they choose to seek the light of Iomedae, then I have brought them to the light, and the Goddess will redeem them. If she chooses to stay my arm, then I will bow to her will." (Dramatic pause given for the GM to involve himself, he shrugged)

Now, in the case of pathfinder humanity (elf/dwarf, etc...) criminals, I would defer to the local authorities, even if they detected as evil, and would unless authorized by the Law, take them into custody unless it would risk my safety or others to do so, even to perhaps blindly accepting their parole to behave, restraining them, until we got to jail/The Law. I guess that's the difference between "monster" and "humanity".

Don't turn this into a personal what would we do as modern philosophers, as I see Paladins as single minded adherents to their faith, fanatics in fact. You cant convert me, you cant make me soft, and when I die I will lie in the warm embrace of my dieties heaven knowing I have followed their strictures. If we ride the fringe of what our gamemaster expects of us as a Paladin, then we need to defend ourselves or have greater guidelines from the GM.

Historically, read anything about the crusades, and observe the handling of less than noble prisoners by either side."

Mikaze, you are selectively picking your battle to "do the right thing" like we might in the real world by shipping the evil kids off to a monastery, or reforming them, etc. You point to numerous non-related modules for the existence of "non-typical" neutral or good aligned monsters, obviously placed by the creator of the module to cause the PCs to have a surprised attitude of "Wow, how wierd, he was a good guy? Oops, my bad, racial hated here, didnt know he was a friendly, sorry about that whole axe in the head thing." Should characters with built in enmity for a particular race, such as how dwarves feel about orcs/goblinoids be penalized?

[blackbloodtroll]

I suppose an Update is in order:

This particular PC is retiring from adventuring to focus on raising her children and building a business along with establishing a more "revolutionary" church to Lamashtu.

Like Protestant and Catholic.

[Icyshadow]

Blackblood, I love the awesome stuff you manage to pull off while envying the fact that you have a DM who lets you do so.

Yours, Orthos' and Mikaze's stories about characters and NPCs are pretty much the best part of these forums for me.

[Thanael]

Nearyn wrote:

Khazrandir wrote:

To say that killing the goblins is an evil act is not fact, but your opinion.

Sigh... Wrong.

Da Rules wrote:

Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others.

The quoted rules are no proof for this at all.

They simply state:

Evil ==> hurting, oppressing, and killing

The inverse of this statement must not neccessarily be true:

Killing =?=> Evil ?

[blackbloodtroll]

Icyshadow wrote:

Blackblood, I love the awesome stuff you manage to pull off while envying the fact that you have a DM who lets you do so.

Yours, Orthos' and Mikaze's stories about characters and NPCs are pretty much the best part of these forums for me.

Well, outside of providing convincing arguments, I also provide the donuts, and exotic candies(these are mostly for me).

Also, books, minis, help with other players PCs, answers about Golarion lore.

Basically, half my enjoyment in games, is others enjoying themselves, so I work hard to make that happen.

[Icyshadow]

I am the Golarion lore expert, and I tend to be the one who shares the food with others, but my DM still didn't support my ideas. With that said, I shall continue to envy you.

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

Heimdall666 wrote:

stuff...

I had a long rebuttal worked out, took a second look at it & realized it was really only going to be the match to your lighter-fluid for a flame war, decided 'I'm too old for this s*$%' and concluded that the only acceptable adult response was 'Those are your opinions & the opinions of your GM. If they work for your game group, great! If other players want to explore other possibilities, that does not make them objectively wrong.'

[Heimdall666]

I didn't post it to start a flame war, just saying there is more than one way to skin a cat. I would have sidetracked, selfishly, an entire module line to babysit goblins on the other course, and that's not fair to the other 8 people at the table. Better to retire my character immediately and edit my manifesto to a small anecdotal paragraph.

[blackbloodtroll]

The decision to retire my PC came after the DM decided to switch systems suddenly.

Now, we are going through RotRL using MHR rules.

I was not pleased, as this PC did not fit the change.

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

Heimdall666 wrote:

I didn't post it to start a flame war, just saying there is more than one way to skin a cat. I wouldn't have sidetracked, selfishly, an entire module line to babysit goblins on the other course, and that's not fair to the other 8 people at the table. Better to retire my character immediately and edit my manifesto to a small anecdotal paragraph.

Fixed that for you.

To respond: How is what BBT did sidetracking the entire AP? If so, how is it any more selfish than the other player deciding he is going to pursue a course of action guaranteed to put him at likely lethal odds with another PC to the potential derailment for the other (?6?, ?7?) players in the game?
BBT's initial post was a request to help him brainstorm ways to avoid intra-party conflict. Your response was instead to tell him that by an extremely rigid interpretation of morality the other guy was entirely in the right; something that he already knew, especially the extremely rigid part.

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

@BBT: MHR rules? Not familiar with those.

[blackbloodtroll]

Marvel Heroic Fantasy.

A dice pool system.

[Khazrandir]

Thanael wrote:

The quoted rules are no proof for this at all.

They simply state:

Evil ==> hurting, oppressing, and killing

The inverse of this statement must not neccessarily be true:

Killing =?=> Evil ?

Agreed. I mentioned this in a post earlier.

The standard text description of the alignment system in Pathfinder clearly states that killing goblin babies could be a "good" action. It could also be an "evil" action, given the circumstances, the character motives, and the playing group's houserules.

Groups can play with house rules that make the act of killing a goblin baby automatically "evil". This may work better for some groups, and may sit better with some players' own sense of morality. It's all up to how a group wants to play this game... At this point I'm pretty much echoing BBT and saying 'Those are your opinions & the opinions of your GM. If they work for your game group, great! If other players want to explore other possibilities, that does not make them objectively wrong.'

[Mikaze]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I suppose an Update is in order:

This particular PC is retiring from adventuring to focus on raising her children and building a business along with establishing a more "revolutionary" church to Lamashtu.

Like Protestant and Catholic.

Nice. Lamashtan schisms could be a fun development to see in the future of that game. Sad about the system change, but that relative happy ending has me glad I check back on this thre-

Heimdall666 wrote:

post

Oh.

Heimdall666 wrote:

Mikaze, you are selectively picking your battle to "do the right thing" like we might in the real world by shipping the evil kids off to a monastery, or reforming them, etc. You point to numerous non-related modules for the existence of "non-typical" neutral or good aligned monsters, obviously placed by the creator of the module to cause the PCs to have a surprised attitude of "Wow, how wierd, he was a good guy? Oops, my bad, racial hated here, didnt know he was a friendly, sorry about that whole axe in the head thing."

wat

Selective nothing. I'm taking the campaign setting as a whole, and those specific examples are part of it.

I hardly think the writers put in those exceptions to norms to "trick" or "get" players. On the contrary, I think they're there to let players interested in pursuing the themes such characters present some fun too.

When the writers point out the possibility of raising such children as viable in their player's compainions, I think the idea that these situations exist simply as "GOTCHA!" traps has been thoroughly staked, burned, and scattered on the winds.

Heimdall666 wrote:

Should characters with built in enmity for a particular race, such as how dwarves feel about orcs/goblinoids be penalized?

If they're acting on such hatred robotically and refusing to acknowledge anything that challenges their preconceptions, yeah, probably. That's the danger of absolutism. Also, racism. It's the same reason why those Oath Against X paladins would fall like a ton of bricks if they take an absolutist stance on their oath and start doing hatecrimes like persecuting draconic/aberrant-bloodline sorcerers and whatnot.

Then again, there are campaigns where those characters fit in, work, and even thrive. Diff'rent strokes. I simply don't play in those games. Everyone wins.

Heimdall666 wrote:

I didn't post it to start a flame war, just saying there is more than one way to skin a cat. I would have sidetracked, selfishly, an entire module line to babysit goblins on the other course, and that's not fair to the other 8 people at the table. Better to retire my character immediately and edit my manifesto to a small anecdotal paragraph.

You know you're entering weird territory when it's considered selfish to not murder children out of convenience and/or expedience. Also, you seem to have missed that retiring the character if that's what it took to save those children was actually put forth.

Someone sacrificing the character they've invested in and wanted to play because they didn't want to go down to Babymurderland isn't exactly selfish.

And if it's selfish to take the time to spare those children and ensure their safety, well they should have never been placed in the campaign to begin with.

[Rynjin]

Irnk, your portrait confuzzles me greatly. =(

[blackbloodtroll]

Her daughter is coming in next session, and as her mother will be continuing to run the Glassworks, and raising her adopted brothers, she will be an asset in Sandpoint.

Also, the deciding factor for her retirement was discovering she was pregnant.

So, her daughter will have another new sibling.

[Weirdo]

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:

'Those are your opinions & the opinions of your GM. If they work for your game group, great! If other players want to explore other possibilities, that does not make them objectively wrong.'

This seems to be the devs' stance on the issue as well given that the goblin babies discussion in Champions of Purity didn't take a clear side one way or another.

[Degoon Squad]

And people always thought my Barbarian was evil cause he would take the young Orc home to be his clans thralls instead of bashing their heads in.
why does it seem its mo0re evil to enslave the enemis and more accetable to commit genocide.