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I've seen a lot of Rogues, but surprisingly many of them didn't take Opportune Strike. I really don't understand way as its a ridiculous increase in firepower. Anyway my thoughts on Rogues. What am I missing?
Rogue
A balanced martial with extra skills who excels as a striker. It has a lot of good in class options. The Rogue’s main feature is Sneak Attack, and it differs from the other classes that get precision damage in that you can get it multiple times per turn, not just once. But in order to use it you need to be able to make your opponents flat footed. Everyone can do that by flanking, and if you have Acrobatics you can tumble into a better position. You are good at using Stealth to Hide. It is possible to use Stealth in combat but often only the one round. After that you need cover or concealment to try again. Which is possible to organise with spells but it costs actions, there are rolls and it's a bit of work. Other characters can set you up. If someone has Dirge of Doom or uses Fear often then Dread Striker is gold. Generally speaking though a Rogue should have some other options all of their own.
Thief
The classic Rogue which has a nice little bonus in melee so they can avoid Strength totally. Insanely powerful in melee from level 8. I’m recommending what is an explosive power combo here, just so you can see what you can do with a melee partner. But it's actually very open what you do with a Thief. They have lots of options, you are only using 3 of your stats. You can afford better Wisdom ie Perception than the other builds.
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Studded Leather, Rapier, Whip, LongBow
Class Feats: Level 1:Nimble Dodge, Level 6: Gang Up, Level 8: Opportune Backstab, Level 10: Precise Debilitation, Level 12: Preparation, Level 14: Leave an Opening
Skills: Acrobatics, Thievery, Stealth,....
Scoundrel
The trickster Rogue if you want to use people skills to get what you need. Insanely powerful in melee from level 8. You have better Charisma and a little less damage in melee.
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 16
Basic equipment: Studded Leather, Rapier, Whip, Bow
Class Feats: Level 1:Nimble Dodge, Level 4: Dread Striker, Level 6: Gang Up, Level 8: Opportune Backstab, Level 12: Preparation, Level 14: Leave an Opening
Skills: Deception, Intimidation, Diplomacy, Acrobatics, Thievery, Stealth
Ruffian
The strength based Rogue if you want to push people around. Insanely powerful in melee from level 8. Reach is good but you want a 1 handed weapon at times so you can use your athletics.
Str 18 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 14
Basic equipment: Breastplate, Longspear or Mace
Class Feats: Level 1:Nimble Dodge, Level 4: Dread Striker, Level 6: Gang Up, Level 8: Opportune Backstab, Level 12: Preparation, Level 14: Leave an Opening
Skills: Intimidation, Athletics, Thievery, Stealth, Medicine
Mastermind
It is not that easy to get flat footed at range, but you get to do it with Recall Knowledge. So this is the racket for the archer rogue. It's pretty good as you don’t have to waste as many actions moving so you can lay damage on thick. You can still be OK at melee if you want.
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Studded Leather, Rapier, Bow
Class Feats: Level 1:Nimble Dodge, Level 2: Loremaster, Level 4: Loremaster's Etude, Level 6: Skirmish Strike, Analyze Weakness, Level 8: Inspired Stratagem Level 10: Methodical Debilitations
Skills: Some relevant knowledge skills, Acrobatics, Thievery, Stealth, Medicine
Eldritch Trickster
Rogues as offensive casters don’t work well, as your casting proficiency falls behind and casting a two action spell breaks cover before the attack hits. If you want to be a caster rogue you are better off as a Scoundrel or a Mastermind and tacking on magic. Really the only benefit to Minor Magic is it's not an archetype feat. Magical Trickster is too hard to use unless someone else in the party is setting up the flatfooted for you. If you want this racket anyway then take Sorcerer or Bard as your archetype and copy the build for Scoundrel. You probably want Invisibility and True Strike for spells so I’d go with Shadow bloodline for the reaction to hide in darkness. Pickup Foil Senses to help against things that can find you in the dark.
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 16
Basic equipment: Studded Leather, Rapier, Whip, Bow
Class Feats: Level 1:Nimble Dodge, Level 4: Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting, Basic Bloodline Spell, Level 8: Shadow Dancer Dedication
Skills: Deception, Intimidation, Stealth, Performance, Acrobatics, Thievery,
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YMMV, but for me the way to play a Ruffian is to get heavy armor, a good natural attack, shield, Monk Dedication via Multitalented, Flurry of Blows at level 10. It has the best AC and action economy of any rogue
I don't care for Nimble Dodge as much as you do. I usually choose Trap Sense. Tumble Behind is good for Thieves, and You're Next is very good once you hit legendary in Intimidation.
I prefer Ruffians and Thieves to Masterminds and Eldritch Tricksters.
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Your Thief section has some serious fundamental issues:
- Not actually proficient with Longbow
- Not actually proficient with Whip.
- Leather armor is much better than the Studded version if you have an 18 Dex (a Str 10 character will take penalties in Studded Leather).
- Shortswords are generally a better option than the Rapier as they are so much lighter and can do slashing damage when you face zombies.
Your stat array looks good, as do most of your feat choices (dodge is a bit of a personal call as some folks hate it, and Preparation depends on having lots of other melee in your party).
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I've seen a lot of Rogues, but surprisingly many of them didn't take Opportune Strike. I really don't understand way as its a ridiculous increase in firepower.
Do you mean Opportune Backstab?
It is certainly a good choice. It is a reaction that makes a Strike - so it is similar to Attack of Opportunity, Stand Still, or the Paladin's Retributive Strike.
However it is hindered by some things that the Rogue class does that those more martial classes do differently.
Opportune Backstab is melee range only. Which is not different than the other reaction attacks. But a ranged weapon Rogue will not get nearly as much benefit from the option, and a ranged Rogue is much more common than a ranged Paladin or even a ranged Fighter.
Opportune Backstab is only one of many useful reaction options that a Rogue can get. Another offensive option would be Sidestep, which also ends up making a Strike against an enemy, but doesn't rely on the Rogue using a melee weapon and doesn't require an ally to be attacking the same enemy as you. It instead relies on having an enemy adjacent to you when being attacked by a second enemy. There are also defensive reactions such as Nimble Dodge. And with all of these reactions to choose from, a Rogue needs to be judicious about which ones to take because they only get one reaction each turn to use. Having too many reaction options could be a waste of class feats.
Also, the Rogue will have much less control over whether or not the enemy is flat-footed when the Opportune Backstab comes up. So while you may be able to make the attack, it may not do very much damage if the Rogue doesn't also get their Sneak Attack damage as well.
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I've seen a lot of Rogues, but surprisingly many of them didn't take Opportune Strike. I really don't understand way as its a ridiculous increase in firepower. Anyway my thoughts on Rogues. What am I missing?
...
Rogues are somewhat fragile, so I believe a lot of folks try for a 'hit and run' style to minimize the damage they take: This means you won't normally be in position to actually use Opportune Backstab. Personally, I preferred to stick it out in melee and deal out some real damage...
I prefer Ruffians and Thieves to Masterminds and Eldritch Tricksters.
Yeah, Masterminds and Eldritch Tricksters are kinda sub-par rackets (mechanically at least).
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What am I missing?
I think you should also consider builds with an 18 in another stat than Dexterity or Strength, they are far from invalid.
For example, if I take your Scoundrel build and compare the sequence Demoralize + Strike (x2) between an 18 starting Dexterity and an 18 starting Charisma, I get a 7% difference in damage during levels 4, 10-14 and 17-19 (the levels where you have a bonus difference and Dread Striker). But you get 5% extra chance to score a critical hit on your Demoralize and as such Frightened 2 and even Fleeing once you have Terrified Retreat. And you also have better Charisma-based skills (if you choose to go Scoundrel, chances are high that you value Charisma-based skills more than Dexterity-based skills).
Your builds give the feeling that maxing your attack stat is so important that there's no point in maxing your other stat instead. It's not true. And actually, I think there are more people who want to max Charisma than Dexterity on a Scoundrel. After all, it's kind of the whole point of the Racket. So I'd change at least your Scoundrel build (but it may also be interesting to max Intelligence on a Mastermind build, it's just harder to calculate as Recall Knowledge advantage is not numerical).
As a side note, bow Rogue is awesome but a bit hard to play. The main issue is to get the Flat-Footed bonus at range and Dread Striker is the most common way of getting it. Once with Dread Striker, the bow Rogue deals Fighter/Ranger level of damage, on top of debuffing foes. The Rogue archer is often overlooked because there's no feat support in the class, but in my opinion it should strongly be considered when deciding what is the best archer in the game.
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Rackets like scoundrel and mastermind ( eventually, even eldritch trickster ) are kinda underpowered compared to the others, though that's not the issue.
I'd give credit to rackets like ruffian and thief when it comes down to basic perks, but as for any other racket ( but that also includes the 2 mentioned before ) the only thing I'd look for would be the lvl 10 feat which improves the backstab.
In my opinion, the reason why we disagree is that you don't see much value in going Scoundrel, Eldritch Trickster or Mastermind. And that's certainly why you consider them weak also.
I agree that if all you want is melee damage, then Ruffian and Thief are the way to go. But there is value in the 3 other Rackets, and there are excellent builds based on them.My Scoundrel archer is extremely competitive, and would be worse with Ruffian or Thief Racket (as they add absolutely nothing to a ranged build). And I don't plan on taking Tactical Debilitations, that I find weak.
In my opinion, the main reason to go Scoundrel, Eldritch Trickster or Mastermind is the choice of main attribute. If you plan on having 18 Dexterity, I don't think it's much important to you. Otherwise, they are the way to go. And that's why I react to Gortle's builds: Switching your main attribute is an asset you can use.
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By doing so, I see more value in giving +1 ranged/melee hit, reflex and dex skills rather than +1 to social ( char ) or knowledge ( wis/int ) rolls ( in addition to the spellcasting DC, if the character would like to go deep into one ).
Sorry, but I dislike when you do that. It's not a +1 to social, it's first and foremost a +1 to Demoralize. So it's a choice between damage and debuff, and I don't think anyone will say that debuff is weak in PF2.
I think either builds are just fine, but I also pretty understand gortle reasoning between the 18 DEX with 4 builds out of 5( and I know for sure the majority of character will increase the damaging stat rather than the circumstantial...
You have your point of view. I don't say that it's a bad one but I really think it colors the way you see the Scoundrel (and the Mastermind and Trickster). Damage is important, but it's not the be-all end-all of a PF2 character. The damage loss of the 18 Charisma build is compensated by the extra damage dealt by your companions. Intimidation is a strong skill, and being the best at it is not a small asset.
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I think a Rogue's fragility plus setting up Sneak Attack make a Rogue more reliant on party synergy than others. So yeah, park me next to a Champion w/ a healing Cleric behind us and Gang Up, Opportune Backstab, & Preparation will help me (therefore us) dominate. If support lands on the other end of the spectrum I'd need to skirmish to survive (and likely take Medic), settling for that one good Strike/round. And if an ally loves grabbing and tripping enemies, that opens up lots of ranged options w/o the Rogue needing to take feats to set those up (or approach/endanger oneself). A PFS Rogue build would likely need to account for somewhat random party compositions, so I'd recommend a skirmish build there too.
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You might want to note that the Thief's stats imply a non-human Ancestry since there are only three stats over 10, meaning one from the "bump four stats" phase went into raising an 8 to a 10. Halflings applaud this shout out.
I think the Ruffian should value Reach more (unless teamed w/ several allies w/ AoOs for him to trip enemies for w/ that free hand). One of the devs mentioned how a Step was a better defense than Raising a Shield, and Reach often grants that positioning. Also leery of 12 Con, not just for the hit points, but the saves/save DC on a PC built to hold the line. Or the Ruffian, w/ its strength could carry an actual shield, maybe use a gauntlet if one wants a free hand (which can work w/ Doubling Rings for swapping weapons).
Not a fan of the Mastermind in general (or Int on a Rogue for that matter, being overstuffed w/ skills as it is), yet will mention that a Thief makes a fine archer too, and can switch-hit depending on the nature of the combat. Whether they use Stealth, Dread Strike, or help from allies depends again on party strategies.
That Eldritch Trickster build feels wonky. It'll be a long while before Invisibility (presumably 4th) and repeated True Strikes become a norm for a semi-caster like that (if ever). Would also note that a Gnome would work well w/ extra Cantrips (or Half-Elf). I'd say lean into the attack Cantrips with this racket otherwise a Thief w/ MCD caster is too much better. Also there's the Strike + non-attack Cantrip option.
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Not a fan of the Mastermind in general (or Int on a Rogue for that matter, being overstuffed w/ skills as it is)
I just threw together a Mastermind Rogue with an Ancestry Lore feat just to see if I could create a character that has trained proficiency in all non-lore skills at level 1. Using Kitsune and Kitsune Lore with 18 INT ... I have one extra skill training that would have to be put into a second lore category.
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That's for sure, but talking about "basic builds" I'd give new players the same MAP as any other martial class rather than less MAP.
I see what you mean, and I agree. For a beginner, I'd strongly direct them to Thief or Ruffian but not the other ones that are harder to build and play.
So, yes, maybe it's better not to talk too much about these builds.
Insanely powerful in melee from level 8.
I don't know what is your experience with Opportune Backstab, but I've been a bit disappointed when seeing it in actual play. The main issue being that enemies die. So very often I see the Rogue in my Abomination Vaults campaign either kill the enemy on his last action (he uses Double Slice, so it happens quite often) or lose its reaction on a corpse (as you have to make the Backstab before knowing if your ally dropped the enemy).
I still rate Opportune Backstab very high, but I thought it would be a massive damage increase when it has been more of an average damage increase.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, if you use a Reaction during your turn you use your current MAP and it affects your MAP. So you should avoid as much as possible to use reactions during your turn. That's why Leave an Opening doesn't combine well with Opportune Backstab
Yes, I'm referring to all reactions but AoO, as I think it's the only one to have this wording.
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There is the general rule in Multiple Attack Penalty that states that MAP doesn't apply when it isn't your turn. So reactions would not need special language to ignore MAP as long as the reaction is used when not your turn.
But I don't see any such general statement about not counting reaction attacks as being subject to MAP when they are made during your turn. So unless a reaction says that it ignores MAP, then MAP would still apply normally to reactions during your turn.
If you use a reaction in response to an ally's action, then it is still not your turn (since it is your ally's turn) and MAP would generally not apply.
Also, just for completeness, the Ready action overrides the general rule that MAP doesn't apply when not your turn. Attack actions taken with a Readied reaction use your MAP penalty as it was when the Ready action was used during your turn.
Sorry about that. Some significant copy paste errors there. Fixing it up. Incorporating some feedback.
Rogue
A balanced martial with extra skills who excels as a striker. It has a lot of good in class options. The Rogue’s main feature is Sneak Attack, and it differs from the other classes that get precision damage in that you can get it multiple times per turn, not just once. But in order to use it you need to be able to make your opponents flat footed. Everyone can do that by flanking, and if you have Acrobatics you can tumble into a better position. You are good at using Stealth to Hide. It is possible to use Stealth in combat but often only the one round. After that you need cover or concealment to try again. Which is possible to organise with spells but it costs actions, there are rolls and it's a bit of work. Other characters can set you up. If someone has Dirge of Doom or uses Fear often then Dread Striker is gold. Generally speaking though a Rogue should have some other options all of their own.
I really like using a Reach weapon as a melee Rogue particularly with Gang Up and Opportune Backstab. Elven Branched Spear is a great option - get it via Adopted Ancestry + backstory about an Elf colleague at the academy + Elven Weapon Familiarity. You can get Whip via Weapon Proficiency, but better via the Pirate, Bounty Hunter, Gladiator archetypes (probably only if doing Free Archetype). Another ancestry option is Whip Claw. If that is too much for you then play a Ruffian with a Longspear.
Thief
The classic Rogue which has a nice little bonus in melee so they can avoid Strength totally. Insanely powerful in melee from level 8. I’m recommending what is an explosive power combo here, just so you can see what you can do with a melee partner. But it's actually very open what you do with a Thief. They have lots of options, you are only using 3 of your stats. You can afford better Wisdom ie Perception than the other builds.
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Leather, Rapier or Short Sword, Bow
Class Feats: Level 1:Nimble Dodge, Trap Finder Level 6: Gang Up, Level 8: Opportune Backstab, Sidestep (retrain out Nimble Dodge), Level 10: Precise Debilitation, Level 12: Preparation, Level 14: Leave an Opening
Skills: Acrobatics, Thievery, Stealth,....
Scoundrel
The trickster Rogue if you want to use people skills to get what you need. Insanely powerful in melee from level 8. You have better Charisma and a little less damage in melee.
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 16
Basic equipment: Leather, Rapier or Short Sword, Bow
Class Feats: Level 1:Nimble Dodge, Trap Finder Level 4: Dread Striker, Level 6: Gang Up, Level 8: Opportune Backstab, Level 12: Preparation, Level 14: Leave an Opening
Skills: Deception, Intimidation, Diplomacy, Acrobatics, Thievery, Stealth
Ruffian
The strength based Rogue if you want to push people around. The Ruffian is insanely powerful in melee from level 8. Reach is good but you want a 1 handed weapon at times so you can use your athletics.
Str 18 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 14
Basic equipment: Breastplate, Longspear or Mace
Class Feats: Level 1:Nimble Dodge, Trap Finder Level 4: Dread Striker, Level 6: Gang Up, Level 8: Opportune Backstab, Sidestep (retrain out Nimble Dodge), Level 12: Preparation, Level 14: Leave an Opening
Skills: Intimidation, Athletics, Thievery, Stealth, Medicine
Option: Monk Dedication and Level 10: Monk's Flurry with a good agile natural attack.
Mastermind
It is not that easy to get flat footed at range, but you get to do it with Recall Knowledge. So this is the racket for the archer rogue. It's pretty good as you don’t have to waste as many actions moving so you can lay damage on thick. You can still be OK at melee if you want.
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Leather, Rapier or Short Sword, Bow
Class Feats: Level 1:Nimble Dodge, Trap Finder Level 2: Loremaster, Level 4: Loremaster's Etude, Level 6: Skirmish Strike, Analyze Weakness, Level 8: Inspired Stratagem Level 10: Methodical Debilitations
Skills: Some relevant knowledge skills, Acrobatics, Thievery, Stealth, Medicine
Eldritch Trickster
Rogues as offensive casters don’t work well, as your casting proficiency falls behind and casting a two action spell breaks cover before the attack hits. If you want to be a caster rogue you are better off as a Scoundrel or a Mastermind and tacking on magic. Really the only benefit to Minor Magic is it's not an archetype feat. Magical Trickster is too hard to use unless someone else in the party is setting up the flatfooted for you. If you want this racket anyway then take Sorcerer or Bard as your archetype and copy the build for Scoundrel. You probably want Invisibility and True Strike for spells so I’d go with Shadow bloodline for the reaction to hide in darkness. Pickup Foil Senses to help against things that can find you in the dark.
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 16
Basic equipment: Leather, Rapier or Short Sword, Bow
Class Feats: Level 1:Nimble Dodge, Trap Finder Level 4: Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting, Basic Bloodline Spell, Level 8: Shadow Dancer Dedication
Skills: Deception, Intimidation, Stealth, Performance, Acrobatics, Thievery,
I've seen a lot of Rogues, but surprisingly many of them didn't take Opportune Strike. I really don't understand way as its a ridiculous increase in firepower.Do you mean Opportune Backstab?
It is certainly a good choice. It is a reaction that makes a Strike - so it is similar to Attack of Opportunity, Stand Still, or the Paladin's Retributive Strike.
However it is hindered by some things that the Rogue class does that those more martial classes do differently.
Opportune Backstab is melee range only. Which is not different than the other reaction attacks. But a ranged weapon Rogue will not get nearly as much benefit from the option, and a ranged Rogue is much more common than a ranged Paladin or even a ranged Fighter.
I agree that the rogue is strongest as a melee striker. Also why I'm keen on reach for a melee rogue.
Opportune Backstab is only one of many useful reaction options that a Rogue can get. Another offensive option would be Sidestep, which also ends up making a Strike against an enemy, but doesn't rely on the Rogue using a melee weapon and doesn't require an ally to be attacking the same enemy as you. It instead relies on having an enemy adjacent to you when being attacked by a second enemy. There are also defensive reactions such as Nimble Dodge. And with all of these reactions to choose from, a Rogue needs to be judicious about which ones to take because they only get one reaction each turn to use. Having too many reaction options could be a waste of class feats.
I was always planning on swapping out Nimble Dodge at some point. Its just a good place to start for your reaction. I've updated my advice. Thanks for the reminder on Side Step.
Also, the Rogue will have much less control over whether or not the enemy is flat-footed when the Opportune Backstab comes up. So while you may be able to make the attack, it may not do very much damage if the Rogue doesn't also get their Sneak Attack damage as well.
But see thats the thing. I'm building Rogues that are sneaking in encounter mode, much less so in combat. Plus they are taking extra feats like Gang Up and Dread Striker that really do give them more targetting options. But no its not total. However that does depend on the rest of your party.
Not a fan of the Mastermind in general (or Int on a Rogue for that matter, being overstuffed w/ skills as it is)I just threw together a Mastermind Rogue with an Ancestry Lore feat just to see if I could create a character that has trained proficiency in all non-lore skills at level 1. Using Kitsune and Kitsune Lore with 18 INT ... I have one extra skill training that would have to be put into a second lore category.
The example I give goes the other way with the generic Loremaster Lore. If you take that plus the focus spell that gives you double roll. Plus some of the basic lores anyway. I think you are quite well covered.
To my mind that is the basic concept of the racket, so its the variant I want to demonstrate here.
By doing so, I see more value in giving +1 ranged/melee hit, reflex and dex skills rather than +1 to social ( char ) or knowledge ( wis/int ) rolls ( in addition to the spellcasting DC, if the character would like to go deep into one ).Sorry, but I dislike when you do that. It's not a +1 to social, it's first and foremost a +1 to Demoralize. So it's a choice between damage and debuff, and I don't think anyone will say that debuff is weak in PF2.
I think either builds are just fine, but I also pretty understand gortle reasoning between the 18 DEX with 4 builds out of 5( and I know for sure the majority of character will increase the damaging stat rather than the circumstantial...You have your point of view. I don't say that it's a bad one but I really think it colors the way you see the Scoundrel (and the Mastermind and Trickster). Damage is important, but it's not the be-all end-all of a PF2 character. The damage loss of the 18 Charisma build is compensated by the extra damage dealt by your companions. Intimidation is a strong skill, and being the best at it is not a small asset.
There is some value in going that way. But I don't expect that I'm the only one in the party doing Intimidation checks. Intimidation is once per target per encounter, but you use Dex every round. There are a lot of important Dex based skills - Stealth, Thievery. So in my judgement the calculus is very much loaded in favour of Dex.
However if I was using Int or Cha for something else as well, then I would consider it. But I'm just not seeing that use case. Deception perhaps, but I find it more reliable to get flanking otherways. I would like to hear ideas/builds from anyone on this.
To my mind that is the basic concept of the racket, so its the variant I want to demonstrate here.
Oh absolutely. My build was just for the LOLs. Sometimes we take ourselves too seriously on these forums.
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There is some value in going that way. But I don't expect that I'm the only one in the party doing Intimidation checks. Intimidation is once per target per encounter, but you use Dex every round. There are a lot of important Dex based skills - Stealth, Thievery. So in my judgement the calculus is very much loaded in favour of Dex.
Not my experience. I rarely see Demoralize used and in a well built party you will avoid to have 2 Intimidaters. Also, I use it every round as it's my way to get Flat-Footed condition. Dex-based skills are nice, but Cha-based skills are, too. It's clearly not "much loaded" in favour of Dexterity. The only thing that Dexterity has that Charisma lacks is the bonus to Reflex saves, so I'd say it's slightly loaded in favour of Dexterity.
However if I was using Int or Cha for something else as well, then I would consider it. But I'm just not seeing that use case. Deception perhaps, but I find it more reliable to get flanking otherways. I would like to hear ideas/builds from anyone on this.
This discussion shouldn't be there (as it's more about advanced tactics) but Charisma is also used for spell DCs and cantrips damage.
One of the main issue of the Rogue is that during 20-25% of the fight you lose your main damage asset. Immunity/Resistance to Precision, Resistance to all (applied twice if you deal Precision damage), Immunity to Flanking, mobility-based Reactions and the few cases where you can't get Flanking because your allies can't help you (or at low level when getting into flanking position is suicidal). And on top of that, all the cases where melee is not ideal: Airborne/Underwater combat, nasty terrain features, Immobilized condition, deadly auras.
Electric Arc proved itself extremely important for these fights. It allowed me to be fully efficient during fights where a normal Rogue would have been impaired and even sometimes close to useless (swarms for example).
I've been positively surprised by the efficiency of my Rogue. I really thought I would be outdamaged easily with an 8 Strength 16 Dexterity bow Scoundrel. It hasn't been the case. I've played Plaguestone with it in PbP, so I've been able to compare my damage output over the adventure, and I've been on par with the Barbarian and the Fighter of the party. In my opinion, it's on par with a Thief Rogue before level 6 (I haven't played my Rogue at higher level, so I don't have an opinion past level 5 when Gang Up and Opportune Backstab kick in). The difference being that my damage has been extremely stable, lots of tiny bits of damage instead of a few high damage instances.
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However if I was using Int or Cha for something else as well, then I would consider it. But I'm just not seeing that use case. Deception perhaps, but I find it more reliable to get flanking otherways. I would like to hear ideas/builds from anyone on this.This discussion shouldn't be there (as it's more about advanced tactics) but Charisma is also used for spell DCs and cantrips damage.
Yes its only one Feat to get a cantrip to attack with. But I often find it hard to find the space to take it.
Resistance to all (applied twice if you deal Precision damage),
Not true - the rule says:When you hit with an ability that grants you precision damage, you increase the attack's listed damage, using the same damage type, rather than tracking a separate pool of damage. For example, a non-magical dagger Strike that deals 1d6 precision damage from a rogue's sneak attack increases the piercing damage by 1d6.
Immunity to Flanking, mobility-based Reactions and the few cases where you can't get Flanking because your allies
That why I have the extra feats where possible so I have multiple ways of gaining flat footed on enemies
I've been positively surprised by the efficiency of...
I'm glad you like it. I tend to play in longer campaigns where the party does synergise and cooperate a bit more.
Not true - the rule says:When you hit with an ability that grants you precision damage, you increase the attack's listed damage, using the same damage type, rather than tracking a separate pool of damage. For example, a non-magical dagger Strike that deals 1d6 precision damage from a rogue's sneak attack increases the piercing damage by 1d6.
"Some creatures are immune to precision damage, regardless of the damage type; these are often amorphous creatures that lack vulnerable anatomy. A creature immune to precision damage would ignore the 1d6 precision damage in the example above, but it would still take the rest of the piercing damage from the Strike. Likewise, since precision damage is always the same type of damage as the attack it's augmenting, a creature that is resistant to non-magical damage, like a ghost or other incorporeal creature, would resist not only the dagger's damage but also the precision damage, even though it is not specifically resistant to precision damage."
What they mean by resisting not only the dagger's damage but also the precision damage is not clear. I used to play it as a double resistance, but I realize that one can read the sentence both ways.
That why I have the extra feats where possible so I have multiple ways of gaining flat footed on enemies
There are not many such feats. Dread Striker and the level 14 feat. Immunity to Flanking is a problem to most Rogues.
I tend to play in longer campaigns where the party does synergise and cooperate a bit more.
It sounds like it is relevant to the discussion, but it's not a counter argument of any sort. I also play in parties that cooperate and synergize (and I play in long campaigns, but it takes time to get to the highest levels).
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That why I have the extra feats where possible so I have multiple ways of gaining flat footed on enemiesThere are not many such feats. Dread Striker and the level 14 feat. Immunity to Flanking is a problem to most Rogues.
Also Tumble Behind and Gang Up. Mobility helps avoid Reactions that trigger on movement.
Overall, rogues have more ways of getting FF than any other class, which counterbalances their reliance on FF for SA. They can get away with not flanking more than other classes can. So foes with all-around vision should be less of a problem for rogues than than for other classes.
That why I have the extra feats where possible so I have multiple ways of gaining flat footed on enemiesThere are not many such feats. Dread Striker and the level 14 feat. Immunity to Flanking is a problem to most Rogues.
Also Tumble Behind and Gang Up. Mobility helps avoid Reactions that trigger on movement.
Overall, rogues have more ways of getting FF than any other class, which counterbalances their reliance on FF for SA. They can get away with not flanking more than other classes can. So foes with all-around vision should be less of a problem for rogues than than for other classes.
I forgot Tumble Behind. Gang Up doesn't work against all-around vision, Gang Up is equivalent to Flanking.
True, but I also didn't mention higher level feats like Instant Opening. My point that rogues' SA should always be firing still stands. The only thing that really stops them cold is immunity to precision, which I do dislike and is annoyingly common.
Sneak Attack is not always firing, far from it. At high level, if you have Instant Opening, then it becomes easy (even if it costs an action). Before Gang Up, it's way harder. And Tumble Behind only works for one attack (and asks for a check, my Swashbuckler can say that it's not that simple to succeed).
Sneak Attack is easy to get, I'll never say the opposite, but you can't consider that it's "automatic". I've seen so many situations where Rogues were not having it to not consider it a given.
YMMV, but IME as a rogue and swashbuckler, you can generally set up and SA/panache and make at least one attack per turn. It gets easier at high levels, but even at first level you should succeed and strike more often than not if you try again after a failure.
You should never try again after a failure, as it reduces your damage output. Striking twice does more damage than trying to get a single attack with Flat-Footed and Sneak Attack.
Actually, if you start at melee range, striking three times deals only 3% less damage than trying to Tumble Behind and attack twice. Tumble Behind is only interesting if you have to move, otherwise it's not really better than attacking without Flat-Footed and Sneak Attack damage.
Not true - the rule says:When you hit with an ability that grants you precision damage, you increase the attack's listed damage, using the same damage type, rather than tracking a separate pool of damage. For example, a non-magical dagger Strike that deals 1d6 precision damage from a rogue's sneak attack increases the piercing damage by 1d6."Some creatures are immune to precision damage, regardless of the damage type; these are often amorphous creatures that lack vulnerable anatomy. A creature immune to precision damage would ignore the 1d6 precision damage in the example above, but it would still take the rest of the piercing damage from the Strike. Likewise, since precision damage is always the same type of damage as the attack it's augmenting, a creature that is resistant to non-magical damage, like a ghost or other incorporeal creature, would resist not only the dagger's damage but also the precision damage, even though it is not specifically resistant to precision damage."
What they mean by resisting not only the dagger's damage but also the precision damage is not clear. I used to play it as a double resistance, but I realize that one can read the sentence both ways.
The way that I read that:
The precision damage is added to the weapon damage. Which is actually the same way that striking runes work - they add to and are combined with weapon damage rather than being something separate.
Some creatures are resistant or immune to precision damage, so they would reduce or remove just the precision damage but wouldn't touch the original weapon damage.
But if a creature resists the weapon damage - whether because it is resistant to the damage type, the fact that the damage is non-magical, or because they resist all damage - then the precision damage is part of the total weapon damage that can be reduced.
An example, a creature that has resistance 5 to piercing and is hit by a rapier with sneak attack. The rapier rolls 3 damage and the sneak attack rolls 6 damage. So the total damage is 9 piercing damage and the resistance reduces that to 4 damage.
It wouldn't reduce only the 3 damage from the rapier itself and leave the entire 6 damage from sneak attack. It also wouldn't reduce the rapier damage to 0 and then also reduce the sneak attack damage to 1 - because the damage gets combined first.
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But that is just how I am reading and interpreting it. I can't think of a better way of reading it than this. I also can't think of any better way of writing it to make my interpretation more of an 'obviously right' way of interpreting it.
But the entire section on damage types is very complicated.
Not true - the rule says:When you hit with an ability that grants you precision damage, you increase the attack's listed damage, using the same damage type, rather than tracking a separate pool of damage. For example, a non-magical dagger Strike that deals 1d6 precision damage from a rogue's sneak attack increases the piercing damage by 1d6."Some creatures are immune to precision damage, regardless of the damage type; these are often amorphous creatures that lack vulnerable anatomy. A creature immune to precision damage would ignore the 1d6 precision damage in the example above, but it would still take the rest of the piercing damage from the Strike. Likewise, since precision damage is always the same type of damage as the attack it's augmenting, a creature that is resistant to non-magical damage, like a ghost or other incorporeal creature, would resist not only the dagger's damage but also the precision damage, even though it is not specifically resistant to precision damage."
What they mean by resisting not only the dagger's damage but also the precision damage is not clear. I used to play it as a double resistance, but I realize that one can read the sentence both ways.
My comment was just about resisting, the immunity to precision dammage is fine and normal - you just ignore precision damage if you are immune. Which is why I cut down the rules quote to just show the resitance part.
Damage types are complex, and can have a lot of different coexisting flavours.
The bottom line is precision damage is special in that you can add it on as part of the normal attack. This is a specific rule to say that precision damage is the same type which basically means it goes through resistance together with that attack and not separately. I feel that someone needs to put together several really complex examples and walk through it...
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Aren't 2nd attacks way less likely to hit? Especially if the target doesn't have any AC penalties to mitigate MAP.
A second attack deals 55% of a first attack on average. A +2 to hit is +25% of damage. But you also have to take into consideration that you can fail your second attempt at Tumbling Through and end up with a single attack with no Sneak Attack. That's why on average it's better to Strike twice.
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Class Feats: Level 1:Nimble Dodge, Trap Finder Level 6: Gang Up, Level 8: Opportune Backstab, Sidestep (retrain out Nimble Dodge), Level 10: Precise Debilitation, Level 12: Preparation, Level 14: Leave an Opening
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It looks you are trying to swap Nimble Dodge (level 1) for Sidestep (level 8).
Retraining - When retraining, you generally can’t make choices you couldn’t make when you selected the original option. For instance, you can’t exchange a 2nd-level skill feat for a 4th-level one, or for one that requires prerequisites you didn’t meet at the time you took the original feat.
Class Feats: Level 1:Nimble Dodge, Trap Finder Level 6: Gang Up, Level 8: Opportune Backstab, Sidestep (retrain out Nimble Dodge), Level 10: Precise Debilitation, Level 12: Preparation, Level 14: Leave an Opening
...It looks you are trying to swap Nimble Dodge (level 1) for Sidestep (level 8).
Retraining - When retraining, you generally can’t make choices you couldn’t make when you selected the original option. For instance, you can’t exchange a 2nd-level skill feat for a 4th-level one, or for one that requires prerequisites you didn’t meet at the time you took the original feat.
No. Not doing that. Sorry my builds sometimes make more suggestions than you can take straight away. I'll rearrange the text to make that clear.
And Tumble Behind only works for one attack (and asks for a check, my Swashbuckler can say that it's not that simple to succeed).
Sneak Attack is easy to get, I'll never say the opposite, but you can't consider that it's "automatic". I've seen so many situations where Rogues were not having it to not consider it a given.
I find that tumble behind works well when combined with twin feint. Twin feint lets your second attack get sneak attack, while tumble behind lets your first attack get sneak attack.
It is also a tidy little set of actions- it is a full turn that gets you a move action and two decent attacks. This is also something that most builds can pull off by level 2, so it can be bread and butter combo when you have to handle a target on your own.
And Tumble Behind only works for one attack (and asks for a check, my Swashbuckler can say that it's not that simple to succeed).
Sneak Attack is easy to get, I'll never say the opposite, but you can't consider that it's "automatic". I've seen so many situations where Rogues were not having it to not consider it a given.I find that tumble behind works well when combined with twin feint. Twin feint lets your second attack get sneak attack, while tumble behind lets your first attack get sneak attack.
It is also a tidy little set of actions- it is a full turn that gets you a move action and two decent attacks. This is also something that most builds can pull off by level 2, so it can be bread and butter combo when you have to handle a target on your own.
I like Twin Feint because its a another way to get the Double Slice effect
I'm not that keen on Tumble Through because the normal Tumble Behind can normally get you advantage anyway. So the only time I'm seeing the point is when I'm first to target a new enemy. First round the rogue likely can get flatfooted from Surprise Attack. It works, I just find myself trimming it out.
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I think Mastermind needs a big warning label to read the rules in the GM chapter about Recall Knowledge
* Against boss monsters, the higher level -> higher DC is going to make things difficult for you. Also, bosses have a higher tendency to be uncommon or even unique, which has a big impact on DC as well.
* Against mooks, the rules for recalling additional knowledge may mean that you get locked out of using your ability to flat-foot people quickly, especially if running into more of the same enemy in multiple encounters.
So make really really sure you and the GM are on the same page about this, otherwise you might be getting hosed very badly.
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As a general principle for rogue builds, I'd say that rogue more than maybe most classes cares heavily what other characters in the party are doing. For example:
Dread Striker is much better if there's someone else in the party who also spreads fear (Dirge of Doom bard, Intimidating Strike fighter, Agonizing Despair cleric, or plain old Demoralize).
Ranged rogue builds are much more viable if someone else in the party frequently makes enemies flat-footed. Like a fighter with knockdown, snagging strike or combat grab, or a trip-happy monk or barbarian who wants to grab enemies. Or Dread Striker and a scary teammate.
Gang Up requires a melee teammate. If you have two melee teammates it gets even better. Same for Opportune Backstab.
I think Mastermind needs a big warning label to read the rules in the GM chapter about Recall Knowledge
* Against boss monsters, the higher level -> higher DC is going to make things difficult for you. Also, bosses have a higher tendency to be uncommon or even unique, which has a big impact on DC as well.
* Against mooks, the rules for recalling additional knowledge may mean that you get locked out of using your ability to flat-foot people quickly, especially if running into more of the same enemy in multiple encounters.
So make really really sure you and the GM are on the same page about this, otherwise you might be getting hosed very badly.
There is not much that is going to save you if the GM is fighting you. I really do think that the GM needs to cooperate to make Recall Knowledge useful or they are deliberately nerfing parts of the game. Bascially its supposed to work, so interpret in a way that it does work.
I would recommend having another way of getting flat footed at range anyway, as you say Dread Striker is good. What I have suggested with Loremaster is nice. There are other things that the rest of the party can do. Ultimately a MasterMind Rogue is not that terrible in melee, so pick up your shord sword and get on with it.
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I think Mastermind needs a big warning label to read the rules in the GM chapter about Recall Knowledge
* Against boss monsters, the higher level -> higher DC is going to make things difficult for you. Also, bosses have a higher tendency to be uncommon or even unique, which has a big impact on DC as well.
* Against mooks, the rules for recalling additional knowledge may mean that you get locked out of using your ability to flat-foot people quickly, especially if running into more of the same enemy in multiple encounters.
So make really really sure you and the GM are on the same page about this, otherwise you might be getting hosed very badly.
There is not much that is going to save you if the GM is fighting you. I really do think that the GM needs to cooperate to make Recall Knowledge useful or they are deliberately nerfing parts of the game. Bascially its supposed to work, so interpret in a way that it does work.
I wouldn't call it GM fighting you - I think Mastermind was written without considering the normal rules for RK very well. You need a GM being generous and loosening up the standard rules to make it work.
(That said, I think the standard RK rules aren't good and should be loosened up.)
All these discussions about the Magus made me realize there's something to do with Magical Trickster. If you take Eldtrich Archer and Magical Trickster, your Eldritch Shots benefit from your Sneak Attack damage twice (once for the Strike and once for the spell).
That's a good way to end up with Fire Ray level of damage by using cantrips.
I'm now wondering if I should go into that direction with my Rogue Archer... Too many choices!
I was looking at Eldritch Shot: "You Cast a Spell that takes 1 or 2 actions to cast and requires a spell attack roll. The effects of the spell do not occur immediately but are imbued into the bow you're wielding. Make a Strike with that bow. Your spell flies with the ammunition, using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell. This counts as two attacks for your multiple attack penalty, but you don't apply the penalty until after you've completed both attacks."
It looks like, at least in the case of Eldritch Shot, it only changes the result, not the attack roll entirely. So you are still considered making a spell attack roll.
Also, considering that you use a "bow Strike" would have a lot of undesired impacts, as you would need to apply the weapon specialization, for example.
Every single ability with double strike ( for example double slice ) using the same map only applies sneak attack once ( I guess that's their own decision in terms of balance ).
There's only Double Slice with this line. So it's hard to make a rule from one case.