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Improved Feint isn't a waste at lower level since a full attack isn't so useful for a rogue due to the lack of iterative attacks. Two weapon fighting isn't so useful either as you are better off hitting more often with one attack than missing with two because of penalties.
Going half elf or half orc wouldn't be a bad idea.
Only issue is you lose the stealth size modifier and bonuses to AC and attack from being small.
It isn't bad, but I think a small creature is better. And it actually makes a lot of sense for a skill monkey obsessive gnome as a concept.
Yeah gnome would work too, halfling would work well too since they can get to 30 foot speed and have the low light you need.
Personally I don't think the +1 to AC is a huge deal in this case... there are plenty of other means to get a decent bonus still. That said the +1 to hit is another story and is useful.
Are we recommending STR over DEX yet? Because I would.
He wants a weapon finesse build, and honestly I think with the stealth stuff he is going to be doing a fair bit of sniping so it might make more sense.
Although I do get very annoyed by all the play a bard advice, when I started off by saying "How useless is a skill monkey rogue?" not a bard. Lord Twig has framed my concept in a less class specific way and shows why bard is not an option.
You haven't given a single good reason why you want to play a rogue and only a rogue. You listed things you wanted to do, and we have dutifully tried to provide you with a direction that will allow you to actually do those things well.
Rogue was my favorite 3E class, I played a ton of them. Unfortunately in PF rogue can't really shine at anything and struggles just to be mediocre. Fortunately, lots of other classes (possibly with the right archetype) fill the shoes better than him -- Ranger, Bard, Alchemist, Inquisitor, Synthesist Summoner.
Monk is my 2nd favorite class, and it has sucked to high heavens since 3.0 at least. Monk taught me long ago not to get so hung up on the name of my class and focus on what I'm actually doing. The same applies to rogue in PF; you need to learn to re-fluff and flavor things to suit your needs. Maybe you hate the performing of a bard... make it work for you. Fighting is a dance, take perform dance. Fight like a whirling dervish in such a way that enhances your fighting style and emboldens your allies to also fight better (inspire courage). You don't have to be singing and playing a lute.
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Although I do get very annoyed by all the play a bard advice, when I started off by saying "How useless is a skill monkey rogue?" not a bard. Lord Twig has framed my concept in a less class specific way and shows why bard is not an option.You haven't given a single good reason why you want to play a rogue and only a rogue. You listed things you wanted to do, and we have dutifully tried to provide you with a direction that will allow you to actually do those things well.
And no one asked you to "dutifully" try and provide anything but what he asked for.
The OP said what he wanted to do in the first post. If you don't want to be part of trying to make that happen, why are you in the thread at this point?
Although I do get very annoyed by all the play a bard advice, when I started off by saying "How useless is a skill monkey rogue?" not a bard. Lord Twig has framed my concept in a less class specific way and shows why bard is not an option.You haven't given a single good reason why you want to play a rogue and only a rogue. You listed things you wanted to do, and we have dutifully tried to provide you with a direction that will allow you to actually do those things well.
Rogue was my favorite 3E class, I played a ton of them. Unfortunately in PF rogue can't really shine at anything and struggles just to be mediocre. Fortunately, lots of other classes (possibly with the right archetype) fill the shoes better than him -- Ranger, Bard, Alchemist, Inquisitor, Synthesist Summoner.
Monk is my 2nd favorite class, and it has sucked to high heavens since 3.0 at least. Monk taught me long ago not to get so hung up on the name of my class and focus on what I'm actually doing. The same applies to rogue in PF; you need to learn to re-fluff and flavor things to suit your needs. Maybe you hate the performing of a bard... make it work for you. Fighting is a dance, take perform dance. Fight like a whirling dervish in such a way that enhances your fighting style and emboldens your allies to also fight better (inspire courage). You don't have to be singing and playing a lute.
Sigh* it's the spell casting that kills the idea of playing a bard. It's no longer the character concept at that point, and if I played a bard that didn't cast spells he would be worse than the rogue.
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Speaking of the power of flavor...
Please if nothing else read this home brewed new martial arts base class and see what you think.
(Click here after reading in case you don't realize why I asked you to read it)
The point is... don't be so close minded. With some alternate names and descriptions, you would be surprised what you can make work for you. Like portraying a Barbarian as a martial artist monk type.
and if I played a bard that didn't cast spells he would be worse than the rogue
I'm really not sure that's actually the case...
and if I played a bard that didn't cast spells he would be worse than the rogueI'm really not sure that's actually the case...
Roll that one up. Archeologist bard gets super trap-finding but no perform. If he didn't cast spells, how would he contribute to combat? Better yet find any kind of bard that can handle magical traps, not cast spells, and is somehow more useful in combat than a skill monkey rogue.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/scholar
Play that one, if 3rd party classes are allowed. It's sort of like a bardy roguey jack-of-all-tradesy fellow without the musical bent. But then your GM would have to allow all the 3rd party feats that go along with it, if you choose to take any of them.
Sorry if this is all wrong. I couldn't find in the thread whether this was for a home game or something else. Sleep-deprived and hazy-headed but trying to contribute.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/scholar
Play that one, if 3rd party classes are allowed. It's sort of like a bardy roguey jack-of-all-tradesy fellow without the musical bent. But then your GM would have to allow all the 3rd party feats that go along with it, if you choose to take any of them.
Sorry if this is all wrong. I couldn't find in the thread whether this was for a home game or something else. Sleep-deprived and hazy-headed but trying to contribute.
Close but the 3.5 factotum puts it to shame and requires only one feat to be approved. Scholar feels like a factotum from dungeonscape.
It's not the musical bent that is wrong with the concept, it is the spellcasting part.
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Roll that one up. Archeologist bard gets super trap-finding but no perform. If he didn't cast spells, how would he contribute to combat? Better yet find any kind of bard that can handle magical traps, not cast spells, and is somehow more useful in combat than a skill monkey rogue.and if I played a bard that didn't cast spells he would be worse than the rogueI'm really not sure that's actually the case...
Wait, since when was trapfinding a requirement? And you only said you had a problem with the spells. I was assuming a bard that's buffing the party with inspire courage and occasionally using Suggestion on NPCs. I was also thinking "better as a skill monkey" with combat kind of an after thought.
If you care about both, how about Ranger? You can play a Trapper to gain Trapfinding and some combat traps of questionable use and lose the spellcasting completely. You'll have full BAB, d10 HD, two good saves, and only 2 less skill points per level than rogue, along with an animal friend and some bonus feats and favored enemy. You can use traits to pick up more class skills, or just dip a level for them.
Or you could give up the favored enemies and pet for the Freebooter archetype, to grant buffs to the party through your superb leadership. Trapper Freebooter Ranger is a solid class choice.
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Roll that one up. Archeologist bard gets super trap-finding but no perform. If he didn't cast spells, how would he contribute to combat? Better yet find any kind of bard that can handle magical traps, not cast spells, and is somehow more useful in combat than a skill monkey rogue.and if I played a bard that didn't cast spells he would be worse than the rogueI'm really not sure that's actually the case...Wait, since when was trapfinding a requirement? And you only said you had a problem with the spells. I was assuming a bard that's buffing the party with inspire courage and occasionally using Suggestion on NPCs. I was also thinking "better as a skill monkey" with combat kind of an after thought.
If you care about both, how about Ranger? You can play a Trapper to gain Trapfinding and some combat traps of questionable use and lose the spellcasting completely. You'll have full BAB, d10 HD, two good saves, and only 2 less skill points per level than rogue, along with an animal friend and some bonus feats and favored enemy. You can use traits to pick up more class skills, or just dip a level for them.
Or you could give up the favored enemies and pet for the Freebooter archetype, to grant buffs to the party through your superb leadership. Trapper Freebooter Ranger is a solid class choice.
Yeah that's more like it. So are the traps all that useful? Well I guess full BAB goes a long way for damage anyways.
Not being able to take 10 on skills hurts, but having fighter-like levels of combat ability ain't bad. I would lose having sleight-of-hand as an in class skill and would lose 'gather information'/diplomacy but I think it's easier to turn this into a skill monkey, then it would be to make the skill monkey rogue more combat viable.
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Yeah, I mentioned the Trapper Ranger.
Throw in a Human with the Focused Study alternate racial trait, and you have all you want.
Freebooter was a needed addition.
Freebooter's Bane (Ex)
At 1st level, the freebooter can, as a move action, indicate an enemy in combat and rally her allies to focus on that target. The freebooter and her allies gain a +1 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against the target. This ability applies only to allies who can see or hear the freebooter and who are within 30 feet of the freebooter at the time she activates this ability. At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the bonus increases by 1. The freebooter’s bane lasts until the target dies or the freebooter selects a new target.
This ability replaces favored enemy.
By the way that is a fantastic ability. Feebooter guts the ranger feel and replaces it with a swashbuckler Han solo vib.
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Again, traits or dipping can get more class skills, and it's only a +3 difference ultimately anyway. I don't think the traps are nearly as good as the spells, but some are ok. Especially when you hit 10 and can shoot them from an arrow. The Sleet Storm one is probably the best, the freezing trap is also good for the tanglefoot bag effect. The swarm one might be useful early on.
Freebooter's group buff is very nice. Actually in some ways better than inspire courage (lesser action to activate initially; scales up slightly faster; bonuses are untyped and stack with everything).
Sigh* it's the spell casting that kills the idea of playing a bard. It's no longer the character concept at that point, and if I played a bard that didn't cast spells he would be worse than the rogue.
On the contrary, it depends on how you look at it. The spells do exactly what you want -- they give you skill-like abilities that are useful both in and out of combat. The problem is that they're called "spells" and are therefore "magical" and "ruin" your "mundane" concept, yes? So change the name. They're not spells any more. Not at all. They're "skill tricks" that allow you to perform amazing skill-related feats both in and out of combat. OK? The rules are the same, but change the name, and imagine them as things you do through Diplomacy and Acrobatics, rather than as things you're doing with a wand or a lute. There's no actual law against imagining things as you see fit, as long as you and everyone else are all playing by the same rules.
Sigh* it's the spell casting that kills the idea of playing a bard. It's no longer the character concept at that point, and if I played a bard that didn't cast spells he would be worse than the rogue.On the contrary, it depends on how you look at it. The spells do exactly what you want -- they give you skill-like abilities that are useful both in and out of combat. The problem is that they're called "spells" and are therefore "magical" and "ruin" your "mundane" concept, yes? So change the name. They're not spells any more. Not at all. They're "skill tricks" that allow you to perform amazing skill-related feats both in and out of combat. OK? The rules are the same, but change the name, and imagine them as things you do through Diplomacy and Acrobatics, rather than as things you're doing with a wand or a lute. There's no actual law against imagining things as you see fit, as long as you and everyone else are all playing by the same rules.
Yeah we're past this. So I'm not going to argue this too much, but if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's a duck.
I swear it took over 300 post to get to a decent alternative because of all the people trying to shoehorn bard into this concept.
Yeah we're past this. So I'm not going to argue this too much, but if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's a duck.
It's a freaking game that takes place in your imagination. If all you can see is a duck, and I can easily see a mongoose, well, there we are.
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Great! A Freebooter Trapper Ranger totally re-flavors the Ranger into Something more closely matching the concept. I have to say the Freebooter's bane ability is pretty nice and will have the rest of your party loving you. Freebooter's Bond just ups the goodness. The Fast Swimmer ability is kinda meh, but it's okay, and swim is a skill after all. ;)
So how do we maximize the skills in this build and remain combat viable? It seems that the stats I came up with earlier fit the concept. (Remember the concept? We want to stick with that.)
Str: 10 +0
Dex: 18 +4 (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level)
Con: 12 +1 (12 base)
Int: 16 +3 (15 base, +1 level)
Wis: 12 +1 (12 base)
Cha: 12 +1 (12 base)
Probably stick with Focused Study to get two Skill Focus feats. High Dex, so go with Archery Combat Style.
1st: Fast Learner, Skill Focus: Acrobatics, Track (Freebooter's Bane +1)
2nd: Precise Shot
3rd: Endurance, Skill Focus: Perception (Favored Terrain: Urban)
4th: (Freebooter's Bond)
5th: Skill Focus: Stealth
6th: Improved Precise Shot
7th: Alertness (Fast Swimmer)
8th: Skill Focus: Disable Device (Swift Tracker, Favored Terrain: Underground)
9th: Persuasive (Evasion)
10th: Rapid Shot
Acrobatics +20, Diplomacy +15, Disable Device +23, Heal +9, Intimidate +18, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +16, Perception +24, Ride +17, Sense Motive +15, Stealth +23, Survival +14, and Swim +10
Hmmm... I only had 11 skill points per level instead of 13, and the list of class skills isn't as strong. I tried to make up for it a little by using the Skill Focus feats, plus Alertness and Persuasive. Also I split skill points between Swim and Heal just because.
So any suggestions on how to improve this?
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Yeah we're past this. So I'm not going to argue this too much, but if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's a duck.
If you can't get an imaginary duck to not walk, talk or look like a duck...I don't think the issue is with the imaginary duck....
Now if the other people in your gaming group has the imaginary duck walk, talk and look like a duck...yes there will be issues. However, please note that the duck in this case is IMAGINARY and as such can honestly be what ever the heck you want.
I swear it took over 300 post to get to a decent alternative because of all the people trying to shoehorn bard into this concept.
Actually I suggested a trapper ranger back in the first 50 posts of the thread.
I did this because it is the conclusion I came to myself. I didn't use freebooter, I used guide with trapper which can also be seen to 'be using skills to enhance the party' since the guide gets to share out some skill and initiative bonuses.
A while back someone challenged me to make a skill character for PFS. I first went the obvious route and built a rogue. The product was optimized for combat, but still felt fairly unsatisfactory, then I read about the trapper ranger here, and looked into the other archetypes. By using this information I came up with a much more satisfactory build that is skill focused but quite effective in combat.
Using traits I got back sleight of hand, and could have grabbed at least one other class skill as desired.
Another option to consider if you want to remain in the 'face' slot of the party is urban ranger coupled with trapper.
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Great! A Freebooter Trapper Ranger totally re-flavors the Ranger into Something more closely matching the concept. I have to say the Freebooter's bane ability is pretty nice and will have the rest of your party loving you. Freebooter's Bond just ups the goodness. The Fast Swimmer ability is kinda meh, but it's okay, and swim is a skill after all. ;)
So how do we maximize the skills in this build and remain combat viable? It seems that the stats I came up with earlier fit the concept. (Remember the concept? We want to stick with that.)
Str: 10 +0
Dex: 18 +4 (15 base, +2 racial, +1 level)
Con: 12 +1 (12 base)
Int: 16 +3 (15 base, +1 level)
Wis: 12 +1 (12 base)
Cha: 12 +1 (12 base)Probably stick with Focused Study to get two Skill Focus feats. High Dex, so go with Archery Combat Style.
1st: Fast Learner, Skill Focus: Acrobatics, Track (Freebooter's Bane +1)
2nd: Precise Shot
3rd: Endurance, Skill Focus: Perception (Favored Terrain: Urban)
4th: (Freebooter's Bond)
5th: Skill Focus: Stealth
6th: Improved Precise Shot
7th: Alertness (Fast Swimmer)
8th: Skill Focus: Disable Device (Swift Tracker, Favored Terrain: Underground)
9th: Persuasive (Evasion)
10th: Rapid ShotAcrobatics +20, Diplomacy +15, Disable Device +23, Heal +9, Intimidate +18, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +16, Perception +24, Ride +17, Sense Motive +15, Stealth +23, Survival +14, and Swim +10
Hmmm... I only had 11 skill points per level instead of 13, and the list of class skills isn't as strong. I tried to make up for it a little by using the Skill Focus feats, plus Alertness and Persuasive. Also I split skill points between Swim and Heal just because.
So any suggestions on how to improve this?
Child of the Streets(+1 sleight-of-Hand),Dangerously Curious(+1 UMD)
Those traits add those skills to the in-class list.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
PF Rogues are gimped by the removal of their 3e niche protection for being skill monkey/trap guy. The opening of class skills in PF means everybody can take almost any skills and be reasonably good at them. No more cross class skills, no more exusive skills. (UMD was rogue and bard only for example)
Trailblazer offers an analysis why the 3.5 rogue is already subpar. I believe one suggested fix was giving the rogue an attack bonus to sneak attacks. 2e did this by a flat +4 but I would suggest giving them full BAB for this similar to the monk bonus on combat maneuvers.
Rogue Glory already got mentioned and it goes some way to make them viable again by giving them back a niche. Glory gives all rogues a guile pool, an ambush ability and proficiency in sword cane, switchblade and bladeboot (it always bugged me that these were exotic weapons and no one is proficient in them from the get to. I applaud giving them to rogues). It also fixes the Stealth skill and provides a few new archetypes.
In short check this product out and read the reviews.
101 Skill Uses by Rite Publishing gives more detail/use to the skill system and rogues can only benefit from that.
This excellent blog post (by the author of Rogue Glory) posits that the skills a PC picks should be treated as Chekhovs Gun, I.e. DMs should strive to incorporate and make relevant to gameplay the skills the players choose. Excellent advice imho and not only for the so-called useless skills that the blog emphasizes.
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Okay I have scrolled through this long line of posts as I'm intrigued as how other people imagine this kind of rogue.
I guess the viability depends on whether you want to be the best at all skills or just great at certain skills.
I myself have played such a rogue in a short homebrew campaign, focusing on stealth at first. I wanted the feeling of an agile and stealthy scout and infiltrant that could sneak in, gather information and understand documents. Great at Stealth and Acrobatics, Good at Perception and Linguistics.
Actually I served as the second damage dealer of the party, the nr.1 being a half-orc fighter. I took the Knife Master archetype, TWF and the Thug trait to be a bit more viable in combat. (we had a lot of other supporting PCs, viable in combat but lower on damage in close combat than either of us)
Skills in Acrobatics, Stealth and Climb served me well to infiltrate and strike with Sneak attack without being noticed. Taking out a few Bad Guys before combat, that was what my role was.
Rogues are good at many skills and it was a blast to play him in and out of combat.
FYI: his stats were Str 10; Dex 16; con 12; Int 14; Wis 14; Cha 8, 15-point buy
This is a bit more challenging. Just "having eyes" is not going to spot this trap, you will need to make a significant investment into perception to have a chance to spot it and even then you might miss it unless you are really good (like my rogue or the bard that was posted)
You can get your perception just as high with a minimally invested cleric or druid. The druid I made in response to a similar conversation has the same perception score against the boulder, and his animal companion alone would eat that rogue.
Other classes start out with so much that they can use their customizable options to cover the rogues turf and still have a decent character left over. A rogue needs to use all of their customizable resources (feats/equipment) just to be relevant in combat.
A DC 25 Reflex save is going to be difficult to make and 42 points of damage to the whole party will be costly to fix in daily resources.
Who's ponying up the wand of cure light wounds this time? Bueler.... beuler... seriously Bueler i used the last two!
Child of the Streets(+1 sleight-of-Hand),Dangerously Curious(+1 UMD)
Those traits add those skills to the in-class list.
Well there you go! It's your character of course, so which skills are important to you will change things quite a bit. If the social skills aren't as important you can free up skill points. Or maybe you don't need Acrobatics anymore?
As far as combat he will have a higher chance to hit, but won't do as much damage when he does. But still, it should be more consistent damage and the fact that he is adding a +1 to +3 bonus to hit and damage for everybody is a nice boost.
Well, what skills does the OP want, exactly? Does he have a preference, melee or ranged?
That will determine stats and how much Int is needed to invest towards skill points. I think I like these starting stats better for an archer ranger:
Str 12
Dex 17 (15 +2 racial)
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 12
With all level up bonuses going to dex. It's...really hard to make stats for a character with no dump stat. But I think that is better balanced and as long as you get +2 items for each stat, and later start getting +4's, it's affordable and doable.
Human and favored class bonus on skill points, that gives 10 skill points per level, and +1 when you get the +2 int headband. That is probably enough. Maybe abuse the Finding Haleen trait if you need more. If absolutely necessary, you could switch Dex and Int completely (including all level up bonuses going to Int), reducing combat ability for more skill points.
2 levels rogue and the rest in figher lore warden is quite handy too actually. Have your INT at 13 or 14, take bonus skill point and you can keep up with skill ranks and have some extra knowledges. You´re good at combat maneuvers and can have a higher AC with combat expertise as well as sneak attack (albeit low) with combat maneuver dirty trick for example.
You also have better weapons and better HD.
What is nice and can make up for a lot of flavor is taking the feats blind-fight and moonlight stalker, which gives you +2 attack and damage when you have concealment. It can be expanded to moonlight stalker feint, where you can feint as a swift action. But you need to have darkvision or low-loght vision for that, so no humans allowed^^
With a DEX build and later some items you won´t need the rogue boni on traps i think. Races with keen senses give you +2 on perception anyway, take a skill focus and some magical aid and you should be good.
It´s probably also better to spread your stats more. 1 skill point per level isn´t worth +2 bonus in two other stats.
I was thinking crossbow combat style getting: rapid reload(Heavy), precise shot, deadly aim, crossbow mastery, rapid shot; only cost 2 of my actual feats
That plus being human still leaves me with 6 skill boasting feats to grab before lvl 12.
What level are you actually starting at?
If you're using a crossbow, you don't need a str bonus; you could even get away with a small penalty there if you want.
Check with your DM about the Point Blank Master feat. I think it's an oversight and should also apply to Crossbow style, but as written only Rangers w/ Archery style can get it. You want it eventually, because otherwise any schmuck with Step Up shuts you down completely.
If your DM says no, or you're playing PF Society, then I suggest you use Archery style despite actually fighting with a crossbow. Crossbow style actually has a LOT of overlap w/ Archery for feats. The only ones it grants that you'd want are Rapid Reload and Crossbow Master. Rapid Reload is easily to qualify for on your own, and Crossbow Master... the reason you'd take it as a bonus feat is to ignore pre-reqs. If you plan to have the pre-reqs *anyway* then you may as well pick it up normally, too. You can get it at level 7, just 1 level later than the bonus feat slot (and even then, only b/c you don't get a feat at level 6).
I also think you should use the level 6 bonus feat on Improved Precise Shot, it's really good, and that's 5 whole levels early. Unless you're starting at 11+ anyway.
Feats:
1 Rapid Reload (Heavy)
1 Skill Focus [Human]
2 Precise Shot [Ranger 2]
3 Point Blank Shot
5 Rapid Shot
6 Improved Precise Shot [Ranger 6]
7 Crossbow Mastery
8 Skill Focus [Human]
9 Weapon Focus
10 Point Blank Master (heavy Xbow) [Ranger 10]
11 Deadly Aim
If you want less combat feats and more skill related ones, you can make greater use of Ranger's ability to ignore feat requirements...
1 Point Blank Shot
1 Skill Focus [Human]
2 Precise Shot [Ranger 2]
3 Deadly Aim
5 Rapid Shot
6 Crossbow Mastery [Ranger 6]
7 [open]
8 Skill Focus [Human]
9 Weapon Focus (or any time before lvl 10)
10 Point Blank Master
11 Improved Precise Shot
Just use a light crossbow until level 6, then switch to heavy. I guess since relaoding will provoke anyway, you could ditch the Weapon Focus and Point Blank Master completely and take IPS at 10 for more feat slots open.
Basically to bring the whole thing back to the OP intent. A skill monkey rogue is not useless. It has one use, and that is as a skill monkey. It can easily be argued that the role of skill monkey is either obsolete or can be done better by others. While it can be done, you may not wish to hang an entire concept on this one facet or you may experience a decreased return of enjoyment.
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I was thinking something along these lines
Feats:
1 Rapid Reload (Heavy)
1 Skill Focus [Human]
2 Precise Shot [Ranger 2]
3 Skill Focus
5 Deadly Aim
6 Crossbow Mastery [Ranger 6]
7 Skill Focus/Skill boosting feat
8 Skill Focus [Human]
9 Skill Focus/Skill boosting feat
10 Rapid Shot [Ranger 10]
11 Skill Focus/Skill boosting feat
I don't want point-blank-shot because I don't want to be 30ft near an enemy if I can help it.
The only reason PBS is in my feat lists is because it's a pre-req for almost everything. I don't actually want it. I did not know you were planning on no rapid shot till level 10 and can wait till 14 for IPS, that means we can dump PBS, I guess.
If you're spending your 6th level bonus feat on Crossbow Master and have no plans to pick up Point Blank Master to avoid AoOs, why not drop Rapid Reload? You can just use a light crossbow till 6th level, and after that, the only thing Rapid Reload does for you is avoid AoOs for reloading. But you plan to stay far away anyway.
Feats:
1 Skill-related feat
1 Skill Focus [Human]
2 Precise Shot [Ranger]
3 Deadly Aim
5 Skill-related feat
6 Crossbow Mastery [Ranger]
7 Skill-related feat
8 Skill Focus [Human]
9 Skill-related feat
10 Rapid Shot [Ranger]
11 Skill-related feat
13 Skill-related feat
14 Improved Precise Shot [Ranger]
15 Skill-related feat
16 Skill Focus [Human]
That gives you the 3 human skill focus feats and 7 more feats to spend on whatever you want by level 16.
If you want to make the DM laugh tell him your plans.
Rapid reload is a nice damage and range boost that turns into something that allows me to just shoot into peoples faces if they want to do melee with me. Plus heavy crossbows are cool.
Also, can you flank with a crossbow if you are right next to them?
I am only planning to up to 12.
How would infiltrator work without favored enemy?
You can definitely threaten with a spiked gauntlet while using a crossbow. You don't need to hold it in 2 hands when not loading and firing it.
You do not flank w/ a crossbow or any projectile weapon.
I have no idea how Infiltrator would work w/o FE, but it's even less impressive than Trapper anyway.
And do what you want. You're wasting a feat just to have the "cool" weapon 5 more levels and because your DM finds... a good feat plan funny, and you don't want him to laugh, I guess? I was trying to free up another feat for you to use on skills, but suit yourself.
I like avoiding AoOs. I don't need an bonus while close, but being able to ward of that one guy with step-up is nice. Plus I get a crossbow with +1 (on average) damage with more range.
Infiltrator would stack with trapper and freebooter, but the FE thing is bothersome.
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Teh Paizo forums - If it takes seven pages of posting to stop one person from playing a rogue, we will gladly do so.
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In my opinion, a rogue CAN be a skill monkey as Marthkus wanted. But I will sets a few limits.
First, you have to select the skills you will use, depending on the group and what you want to do with your character.
Then, you will have to be useful in combat, by whatever means you want. A rogue is NOT a warrior. He may be able to do reasonnable damages, but it needs a bunch of feats/talents to be able to go in melee combat (or distance) for a rogue.
Marthkus, you wanted to know what you can do to use your skills during combat :
Physical ones : Climb, Acrobatics and Escape artists (and swim in some environments) will be useful to move around as you want, both in and out of combat. It is even more useful in that you are likely to be the only one that use those skills.
Smart ones : Knowledges, Appraise, linguistics and spellcraft are all useful outside of combat.
Knowledge can also be used in combat as a mean to know your ennemies weaknesses/special attacks, and thus can help the group. The counterbalance is that if your group have a wizard or a witch, you are toast because they will be able to do that naturally (high INT, and knowledge as class skills).
Spellcraft is very useful to know what spells are being cast, and thus be able to react even to effects that are not visible. However, any spellcaster in the group will be able to do it with enough skill that most of the time, they will autosucceed. So, not so good for a skill monkey.
Linguistics makes you able to understand what the bad guys are saying, and thus, know their plans if they say it in their languages. You can take your own share of languages by that way, and combining with others, you will be able to understand most creatures. The problem is that most DM forget to make the creatures talk to each other the way PCs talk to each other during combat... So it is not as useful as it could be.
Face ones : Diplomacy, Intimidate and Bluff.
Bluff can be used in combat to be able to sneak, and to feint. It can also be used to influence combat : "So, will you surrender or does I have to summon one or two dragons to disintegrate you peoples ?". Used with Linguistics, it allows to bluff almost every creature (except animals and vermin) in the world.
Intimidate can be used to boost other fear effects.
Diplomacy can't be used in combat. But it is the best out of combat skills out there.
Jobs : Perform, Profession and Craft.
You can forget about those ones. Craft (one craft) can have little ranks, but you won't need more.
Wild ones : Handle animal, Ride and Survival : Not for you for most of the time. A couple ranks in Ride is all you need, and Survival will certainly be one of the rare skill a warrior (Fighter, barbarian, ranger) will take, so let them have their shiny moment there.
Senses ones : Perception and Sense motive. They are so good ! Max them. The more people can do this, the more useful it will be. To be able to detect someone in the dark, and see when there is something wrong with someone attitude is HUGE.
Thief ones : Sleight of hand, Stealth, Disguise and Disable Device. You will need those if you want to do the rogue stuff out of combat.
In combat, Disguise will mostly be useless. Disable device too.
Sleight of hand can be used to hide weapons on yourself if the group is captured (or if you infiltrate), but will mostly be useless during combat, except if you can reliably use stealth before and during combat.
Stealth is mostly useless during combat, because a large part of them can detect you by something other than vision (blindsense, ...), and also because as soon as you attack, you will be unable to sneak anymore, unless you are either very VERY good at stealth (at least 30 more than the perception modifier of the enemy, in order to be sure), and even then, you won't be able to make more than one attack (the same with a projectile weapon, but with 10 more skill modifier than with melee attacks, so 40 more than the perception skill modifier of the creature).
The best one : Use Magic Device. With this, you can buy some Invisibility, Greater scrolls and use them to move through the battlefield and TWFing Sneak attacks on most creatures you will encounter. It will be build-heavy to do it soon (Skill focus + 12-14 CHA + Magical aptitude is almost a prerequisite, and even then, the skill DC will be 27 and you can't take 10).
To be honest, UMD is the best skill in the game, the second being Perception and the third Diplomacy.
As I read it, it seems that you don't want to use spells, so UMD will not be that good to you though.
No UMD is cool
But now were trying to turn a trapper freebooter ranger into a skill monkey
Wow... just glancing through the thread, it seems that A)people hate rogues... and B) people hate non-combat characters.
Personally I like both.
As long as people go in with the proper expectations...
1) Will rogues skill monkey be good at combat? NO! Will ANY rogue be good at combat?? Not really... So in my opinion that's just a wash until the groups start banning rogues.
2) If your NOT going to be great at combat.... be good at SOMETHING!!! We ran a serpent skull game, and there were LOTS of survival/knowledge/perception(tracking) etc. skills that we WISHED we had... Combat WILL happen, so at least give him a weapon... but will he be the BEST at it?? nope. No rogue is.
Wow... just glancing through the thread, it seems that A)people hate rogues... and B) people hate non-combat characters.
Well that could be taken as insulting. Hate is a strong word. People might suggest against making a character who's useless in combat, but I don't think people are posting becuase they "hate" someone useful out of combat or rogues.
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Rogues and ninja are great for up to a 4 lvl dip, but not much more unless you are playing a long game and are thinking of something special.
I have a rogue 4/ magus4/ duelist X that is not optimal, but fun.
Just finished building a paladin 7/ ninja 5, and I have high hopes for it as well.
I also have a ninja/ sorc/ arcane trickster
Finally there is my cavalier hunt master 5/ ninja 1/ rogue1 with the teamwork feat that gives me a 1d6 to flanking with my wolfie.
All great characters, all less than optimal, but all loads of fun. The key to all of them is using static damage in conjunction with sneak attack while enjoying the skill sprinkles as well.
Okay, I'll answer this one and then move on.
If the only thing you have to add to the conversation is "You can't do it" that has been added in spades at this point.
Actually, my point was: "it can be done, but it won't be very effective". That's it, no more, no less.
But if you like, I can keep your argument in mind next time we are discussing something where people are accusing you of wrongbadfun.
I never accused anyone of badwrong fun, I didn't even criticize the fluff of the OP's suggested build, only its mechanics. That said:
Sure! Next time I post a build who is likely to be incredibly weak, please, feel free to tell me that's the case! You'd be doing me a favor! If I ask for advice in this forum, chances are I want help making an effective character.Also, note that nobody ever told the OP to use THE MOST EFFECTIVE BUILD EVER.
You are absolutely able to post what you like. At a certain point you go from being helpful to being a jerk.
I think we both would do well to remember this.
So you are correct, I have no authority to stop you. Just as you have no authority to tell the OP to stop trying to do something.
And I never did. Check my posts if you doubt me.
But if you think what I am doing, as one person, to several of you is obnoxious, you all have been doing this to the OP, as a group, for pages now.
That's odd... I don't recall accusing him of bullying for answering the thread title and pointing out the mechanical limitations of a character build.
Wow this post got long. A few points I'd like to bring up:
1- No one class can do everything the rogue is capable of being good at at the same time but especially not the rogue! . To be frank it's too much for any single class to cover. However, I would love to point out a few classes who do better in an aspect of the rogue than a specialized rogue. Here goes.
-Damage (because that's what Sneak Attack is About). Just ask Admiral Ackbar, and he'll gladly tell you. It might feel bad, but it pretty much ends like this rogue<monk<everyone else.
-Dungeoneering (traps). Oh joy, let me think. Archeologist bard (who i've now come to think of as my Rogue class), Archivist, Trapper Ranger, Urban Ranger . . . In other words it's Bard, Ranger, Alchemist . . . the Rogue is pretty far down this tree to.
- Sneak (stealth + theivery). Rogue gets nothing except a few rogue talents to compete with this. This puts it below bards and shadow dancers, who also have access to said talents. He ends up about equal to the ranger in this aspect.
- Face (Talking). Let's face it you never were the master of this one. This was the Bard's to begin with, followed by the Paladin, Sorcerer, and everyone else who needs Charisma for a class ability.
- Skill-Jack (because monkey insults his intelligence). I pointing out the Scholar, which is a Spell-less class btw (hint hint) which masters this. But not including 3rd party material it's definitely the Bard. not by vitrue of sheer number of skill points, but through Versitale Performance (I can't spell). It basically let's one skill count as three. Dance turns into Acrobatics, Dance, and Stealth, and other performances follow suit. It turns into an effective 3-12 skills, which may or may not all key off Charisma.
2- Should you play a rogue? YES, by all means play one if that's the class you want to play. By no means am I going to come to your house and demand you stop playing a rogue. Sorry, but you're not worth that much of my time. But if you put up a post two months from now complaining about how between the bard and the ranger you have no use in the party I'll probably link this post as my reply. A lot of people might now that I've pointed it out.
I don't tell people what they can or cannot do. But put up a thread on the Paizo Forums asking "How Useless is a Skill Monket Rogue?" then expect most of the answers to be centered around that, mine included. I've shared my thoughts and my opinions. If you want to go ahead and continue to argue that's fine. Just remember when you look at the classes notice this:
All classes are created equal. Some are just more equal than others.
Wow... just glancing through the thread, it seems that A)people hate rogues... and B) people hate non-combat characters.Well that could be taken as insulting. Hate is a strong word. People might suggest against making a character who's useless in combat, but I don't think people are posting becuase they "hate" someone useful out of combat or rogues.
I believe you used the term 'Dead weight' on the first page ;)
and others said things like uselessness and 'we call characters like that NPCs, and of course suggestions to try the concept in a different game that supports that...
Hate seemed pretty appropriate for this thread.
Though FRANKLY, I will say that it's been better than OTHER threads detailing the same kind of charcter concepts. Those usually devolved into claiming the 'non-combat' guy was useless and a drain on treasure... with suggestions of either kicking him out of the party.. or killing him.
Thankfully THIS one hasn't reached that yet... but it's only page 7 ;)
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Wow... just glancing through the thread, it seems that A)people hate rogues... and B) people hate non-combat characters.
Personally I like both.
As long as people go in with the proper expectations...
1) Will rogues skill monkey be good at combat? NO! Will ANY rogue be good at combat?? Not really... So in my opinion that's just a wash until the groups start banning rogues.
2) If your NOT going to be great at combat.... be good at SOMETHING!!! We ran a serpent skull game, and there were LOTS of survival/knowledge/perception(tracking) etc. skills that we WISHED we had... Combat WILL happen, so at least give him a weapon... but will he be the BEST at it?? nope. No rogue is.
You do realize that the request was for ANY circumstance? Yes a none combat skill focus rogue can work well in a home game if you know that he rest of the party needs those skills and can take up the slack in your lack of combat. If that was the case for the OP...it would be a simple enough matter of get together with your friends and talk it out and make it worth between you all.
Now toss this guy in a game where you have no idea who your playing with (like say PFS)...then no combat becomes a serious issue if the rest of your party has pretty meh combat ability. In such a scenario, you ALWAYS want some combat oomph.