Ok I will try this one more time.
The light source does not spread dim light.
It spreads light that can be percieved as dim by certain races with or without low light vision.
The light source does not spread dim light. A human may observe it as dim while a low light vision will observe it as bright.
The level of light of a light source is not bight, dim or dark.
The perception of a character is.
So do not describe the light source as dim light. What is dim light to a human is bright to a low light vision.
The dim light condition give a certain penalty to everyone but is NOT the same amount of light for everyone.
I find this thing with starlit nights and low-light vision also very confusing. Would be nice if we could get some clarification how it applies and if it only applies to star-/moonlit nights or also caves with ambient dim light from glowing fungi and the like.
Snowleopard, I still disagree.
Light sources spread light as they are written in the rules. As discussed at length in THIS THREAD, it was ultimately decided that the base state of light is just as important to the mechanics of the game as how that light is perceived by a character.
In a nutshell, 25' from a torch is dim light. As such a shadowdancer can use it to trigger HIPS. It does not matter if an elf is looking directly at the shadowdancer, which the elf perceives as 15' away from dim light.
But, in regards to stealth, the base state does not matter. What matters is the perception of the observer. At the same spot, 25' from a torch, someone can stealth from a human, but not an elf.
So the game has different rules for each situation. In some cases, the base state is all that matters. In others, it is the perception of the observer that takes precedence.
That said, light can be given off as bright, normal, or dim. Each is normally given a radius, but in some cases this is not true. The sun, moon and stars do not have a radius. They are each infinite, as the game is concerned.
The moon and stars have special rules relating to creatures with Low Light Vision. And these rules are either implied or difficult to find.
It is impossible to correctly sum up all the rules concerning vision and light in just a few sentences. When all parts are applied, it is one of the most complicated parts of the game, IMHO.
Quatar clearly has the right of it.
I also don't see a contradiction, but I agree that the language used is confusing/improper.
Low Light vision allows a character to see perfectly in dim lighting conditions, that is, without penalties or concealment %.
In addition, low-light vision allows a character to see beyond the 'normal' radius of a punctual source of light (up to twice its radius to be exact). In this increased radius (which does not exist for characters without LLV), characters with low-light vision see with the same penalties and restrictions as normal people in dim lighting conditions. Note that for the purpose of this explanation, "normal people" do not possess low-light vision.
In effect, a torch emits 20 feet of bright light, 20 feet of dim light and 40 feet of "extra-dim light". None can see in extra-dim light, but low-light vision effectively boost each radius by one "step", therefore transforming "extra-dim light" into dim lighting conditions.
'findel
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Low Light vision allows a character to see perfectly in dim lighting conditions, that is, without penalties or concealment %.
And this is the contradiction. The above is not a true statement.
Low Light Vision only allows creatures to:
Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
Without a bright enough light source, they do still suffer ill effects from Dim Light.
That is the crux. Again, based on this, if in a cave with only Dim Light, then a character with Low Light Vision gains no benefit over a human.
Low Light Vision and a candle in a cave = Normal Light of 0' x 2 = 0' of Normal Light. Dim Light of 5' x 2 = 10' of Dim Light.
So the only benefit is 10' of Dim Light. from each candle.
And the rest of the contradiction is that your statement is correct when concerning Moonlight and Starlight.
Going to mega-necro this thread, because of candlelight.
I rule that candlelight is normal at 5' for LLV characters, because they can read scrolls by it. Dim out to 10'.
Sometimes you just have to use your own interpretation of the rules and enforce that upon your players. If they have objections and are unhappy, things can be changed.
There are stickier rules than vision, but I agree with some that these rules not very clear as written.
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Going to mega-necro this thread, because of candlelight.
I rule that candlelight is normal at 5' for LLV characters, because they can read scrolls by it. Dim out to 10'.
Sometimes you just have to use your own interpretation of the rules and enforce that upon your players. If they have objections and are unhappy, things can be changed.
There are stickier rules than vision, but I agree with some that these rules not very clear as written.
Using your own interpretation of rules that are difficult to define, like stealth, is one thing. Making up your own is known as "House Rules". These are fine, but the difference should be understood.
Using your own interpretation of rules that are difficult to define, like stealth, is one thing. Making up your own is known as "House Rules". These are fine, but the difference should be understood.Going to mega-necro this thread, because of candlelight.
I rule that candlelight is normal at 5' for LLV characters, because they can read scrolls by it. Dim out to 10'.
Sometimes you just have to use your own interpretation of the rules and enforce that upon your players. If they have objections and are unhappy, things can be changed.
There are stickier rules than vision, but I agree with some that these rules not very clear as written.
also going to mega necro this thread again, because I think everyone missed something.
the moon is a light source that at the range of golarion produces dim light. light sources always seem to have half the distance that produces dim light produce bright light, rounded down.
so doubling the bright range of the moon by simple geometry will always create bright light for a LLV character at night.
there is only 1 overriding rule and applying it to the moon as a light source or any source of light that produces dim light, will yield bright light for a LLV character, except for possibly the candle, depending on if you decide the 2.5 bright light still exists but is rounded down or if it doesn't have bright light.
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light sources always seem to have half the distance that produces dim light produce bright light, rounded down.
Interesting argument, but you are making an assumption that isn't supported by the rules.
1) there are 3 levels of illumination:
- Bright light (direct sunshine and inside the area of a daylight spell).
- Normal light (underneath a forest canopy during the day, within 20 feet of a torch, and inside the area of a light spell).
- Dim light (outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch).
2)
A candle dimly illuminates a small area, increasing the light level in a 5-foot radius by one step (darkness becomes dim light and dim light becomes normal light). A candle cannot increase the light level above normal light. A candle burns for 1 hour.
2 candles in the came chandelier will give a 5' radius of normal light and no dim light, as neither of the candles increases the illumination beyond 5'.
We have no information on what kind of illumination Golarion moon provides besides "dim light on the planet's surface at night".
Moonlight is the reflection of sunlight on a clear surface (not a mirror), so it can be easily dim from the start.
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Wait, so a chandelier, with multiple candles such that it is a full 10' radius circle of candles, but suspended in the air say, 10' in a room... would NOT illuminate the floor directly below it? Like, imagine a "wagon wheel" shaped iron chandelier but with space between the "spokes" of the wheel so that light shines through, but the candles only increase light by one step in a 5' radius from themselves; I assume in three dimensions that means up and down as well.
But that also means that if the candles were suspended 10' up that the light wouldn't change in the lower 5' square below them. Could it be that multiple individual candles would together form a stronger light intensity, and is that supported in the RAW?
Generally, the candles in that kind of chandelier are larger, but, more important in RL, they are teens of candles.
In Pathfinder, RAW, there is no distinction between different kinds of candles, and they wouldn't illuminate the floor.BTW, the old electric lamps were rated in candles. You have ever seen the kind of light a 20 candles lamp without a reflector gives out? Barely enough to recognize colors.
It will count as normal light, but I can assure it that reading with that kind of light will tire your eyes rapidly.
Or the sun. The -1 perception per 10ft of distance makes it impossibleThe chandelier you're talking about would (probably) have glass/mirrors to help direct the light as well.
Don't think about it TOO MUCH or you'll realize that you can't see the moon!
This is a false notion generated from incorrectly applying the rules for perception checks.
Perception has a number of uses, the most common of which is an opposed check versus an opponent’s Stealth check to notice the opponent and avoid being surprised. If you are successful, you notice the opponent and can react accordingly. If you fail, your opponent can take a variety of actions, including sneaking past you and attacking you.Perception is also used to notice fine details in the environment...
Unless the sun (or moon) is actively trying to hide from you, or you consider either of those to be a "fine detail in the environment", then the -1 per 10' perception check does not apply.
eg, the perception rules are based around noticing things that aren't obvious. Clouds in the sky, the sun/moon, mountains looming on the horizon, etc, are all obvious things - no perception check needed to see them.
...
Unless the sun (or moon) is actively trying to hide from you, ...
but what if they "take 10" looking at the sun during an eclipse? do they go blind? ε(≎︵≎)з
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Unless the sun (or moon) is actively trying to hide from you, ...but what if they "take 10" looking at the sun during an eclipse? do they go blind? ε(≎︵≎)з
I don't have an answer for that question, but this guy might.