Wayfinders and Resonating - Ouch


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Sczarni

If I understand the Seekers of Secrets information correctly:
A Wayfinder can store up to 3 Ioun stones (I would take the one that stores two, or make another type with Craft Magic Skills that doesn't cost 100K+).

My real question is the resonance of the stones. It states that the abilities are in addition to the stone's normal power, but the Wayfinder itself can't use its normal abilities. I presume this means any magic abilities for that stone slot (which are already mentioned as being nullified with each stone put in) as well as using it as a compass, et al? But you gain the normal stone bonus AND that ability of the resonance?

So on with the next question - can you craft them to resonate however you wish (GM permission aside)? Can I craft a new Wayfinder (because lets face it, the CL is not that high) that resonates with a certain ability? I know this is ultimately up to the GM, but it seems like giving FREE POWERS to an item was just something that should never have been done.

Example of abuse: Three stones each giving Fleet 2x resonance (+30 speed). A single resonance granting a Rogue Talent: Stunning Critical (+17 bab is attainable by a R10 F10, and now, any rogue that picks this up with a stone in it can do Stunning Crits!). Three stones that grant Skill Master 2x (now a rogue can take 10 on every skill at first level (well 20 of them at first level with a cheapy Wayfinder that gives it 2x for one stone)). I mean, compare getting Stunning Crits at first level to a silly +4 Dex Bonus... ya know what I mean?

Seems a bit OP to me.


No. You can't. Each Ioun Stone does a specific thing, and theres an example of other things they can do on a list that you can roll on in seeker of secrets.

The wayfinder isn't the one giving you the powers anyway. Its the Ioun Stones.

Edit: Also resonances from multiple wayfinders interfere with eachother anyway if I remember right.

Dark Archive

Yes, because GMs never have any say in what custom items can be crafted, right?
For more information: see the many threads complaining about crafting in general.

Furthermore, as MrSin pointed out, you've got some of the rules wrong.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tiems wrote:

Yes, because GMs never have any say in what custom items can be crafted, right?

For more information: see the many threads complaining about crafting in general.

Furthermore, as MrSin pointed out, you've got some of the rules wrong.

The Wayfinder is not the item providing the resonance. Resonance is the property of the ioun stone itself, that's why the descriptions of resonant powers are listed with the stones themselves not the wayfinder. The wayfinder in this role is merely the power source that fuels the resonance.

Dark Archive

Oh he was talking about a normal wayfinder? I thought he meant another form of wayfinder, like the few custom ones there already are—like the wayfinder of passage and so on—which would provide a custom resonance.

But yes, ioun stones provide the resonance in normal wayfinders.

And I doubt GMs would allow you to cherry pick from the "method 2" list in seeker of secrets, or come up with your own additional resonances.

Sczarni

Each Ioun Stone does a specific thing: True.

My question was, I guess, does resonating, per SoS grant the regular abilities AND the resonating ability, or just the resonating one. From what I read, the regular attributes of the WAYFINDER are cancelled, but the stone still gives the ability of the stone AND the resonation.

That said, SoS states that some Wayfinders can hold three stones. So if all three stones Resonate, you get 3 stone powers PLUS 3 resonant powers... and if you rolled the resonants, you could get DOUBLE EFFECT RESONANT abilities. Thus the crazy examples I gave.

As for the GM thing - I did mention "GM permission aside", right?

As I understand it, a Ioun stone can't resonate with itself, thus it is the combination of stone and Wayfinder that activate these abilities, not the stone themselves. In any event, one of the ROLLED abilities is a ROGUE TALENT. The simplest one is COMBAT TRICK, which gives them a COMBAT FEAT. Since, as I pointed out, a Rogue 10 Fighter 10 can obtain the +17 BAB required by STUNNING CRITICAL, a Rogue COULD choose this feat as a bonus feat. Since it is a resonant ability, and the chart says they get the feat without needing the pre-reqs, it is available at first level, for 1500 gp to any Rogue lucky enough to have rolled it as a resonant ability for his stone.

Did I miss something?

Sczarni

Tiems wrote:

Oh he was talking about a normal wayfinder? I thought he meant another form of wayfinder, like the few custom ones there already are—like the wayfinder of passage and so on—which would provide a custom resonance.

But yes, ioun stones provide the resonance in normal wayfinders.

And I doubt GMs would allow you to cherry pick from the "method 2" list in seeker of secrets, or come up with your own additional resonances.

If you are crafting it... why not? I mean, I know why not (see the abuses listed), but if you MADE the thing you should be able to set how it resonates/control the attributes of crafting it... apparently without spells or other requirements in crafting (which is patently absurd to begin with). Alternately, can I just pay 100x the cost until I essentially "take 100" to get the effect I wanted? So 25,000 gp for a normal wayfinder that resonates how I want it to?

Like I said, way OP.

ps. for the record, yes it says single rogue talent, not advanced talent, so Skill Master would be out. Also wrong about number of resonating abilities per stone:
93 Roll three times, ignoring results above 90.


I said in my edit they interfere.

If you somehow made a custom wayfinder with 50 slots(there is none), and Ioun Stones that just happened to have the most amazing resonances(2 each of course), and you somehow got all of this into a game. Yes that would be legal and you would get their power and the resonance. if you filled up all 50, the wayfinder isn't a flashlight. Is that what you wanted to know?

Its not that OP because it doesn't happen...

Dark Archive

Well first up, I think you are referring to the line "If the power is a feat, the bearer gains that feat as a bonus feat even if he does not meet its prerequisites"

It then goes on to mention feats like alertness, Blind-Fight, and yes "knowledge of a single rogue talent."

If you were to apply this to combat trick, I would argue you do not gain access to feats, since you didn't choose a feat from the resonant powers, but rather you chose the option of a rogue talent.

Since rogues taking this combat trick--namely a feat--would have to meet the prerequisites for said feat, I would argue you would need to do the same. Also note that this would then only work for rogues, since the resonant power (26) clearly states "If the bearer is a rogue, he gains the talent of this talent as if he had selected it."

Sczarni

MrSin wrote:

I said in my edit they interfere.

If you somehow made a custom wayfinder with 50 slots(there is none), and Ioun Stones that just happened to have the most amazing resonances(2 each of course), and you somehow got all of this into a game. Yes that would be legal and you would get their power and the resonance. if you filled up all 50, the wayfinder isn't a flashlight. Is that what you wanted to know?

Its not that OP because it doesn't happen...

Well, besides it not being allowed to happen, I guess it is just OP because you get powers for NOTHING (basically). That was my original complaint. A silly little CL 5 item, with one or two spell components (the normal and the ebon), meaning it is just a DR 15 or 20 to make them, and then you can throw 3 or 6 free powers in by adding a 1k gp stone? So for 1500 you get 4 powers in an item. For 11,000 you can get 8.

Additionally, the abilities don't mention in the SoS that stacking ability bonuses have a limit of +6 (like normal items), so in theory they could give a +12 to a stat! (though I know this is patently wrong and also never happens). Basically the module should have been examined by a discerning power mongering player base before it was released. IMHO, of course.

Sczarni

Tiems wrote:

Well first up, I think you are referring to the line "If the power is a feat, the bearer gains that feat as a bonus feat even if he does not meet its prerequisites"

It then goes on to mention feats like alertness, Blind-Fight, and yes "knowledge of a single rogue talent."

If you were to apply this to combat trick, I would argue you do not gain access to feats, since you didn't choose a feat from the resonant powers, but rather you chose the option of a rogue talent.

Since rogues taking this combat trick--namely a feat--would have to meet the prerequisites for said feat, I would argue you would need to do the same. Also note that this would then only work for rogues, since the resonant power (26) clearly states "If the bearer is a rogue, he gains the talent of this talent as if he had selected it."

Toche'. Semantics win again. The chain was that since Feats are granted without pre-reqs, and Combat Trick grants a Feat, the Feat needs no pre-reqs. But semantically you have a valid point; "as if selected" is not the same as "granted" (which is done after selection?). It is debatable, I think that selection and granting occur at the same time. But I see your point.

Dark Archive

Well if you want to craft an ioun stone that has a resonant power that says "You now have acces to a feat that you do not need the prereqs for" that would be wholly houseruled.

RAW, imo, you are not able to do so. Rogues would be able to gain a certain specified bonus combat feat they meet the pre-requisites for.

Sczarni

Tiems wrote:

Well if you want to craft an ioun stone that has a resonant power that says "You now have acces to a feat that you do not need the prereqs for" that would be wholly houseruled.

RAW, imo, you are not able to do so. Rogues would be able to gain a certain specified bonus combat feat they meet the pre-requisites for.

... and be able to use "COMBAT TRICK" rogue talent more than once? The semantics of this are interesting: if I have a Wayfinder that grants this, I can't RE-TAKE the Combat Trick Rogue Talent because I have already selected it. If I have selected it already, I get a second Combat Trick by getting a resonating Ioun Stone/WF...

In theory I would be able to put my IS/WF down for 10 minutes when I level and take the Combat Trick, then pick up the IS/WF and get a second CT.

And then there is the whole - I made a 2 slot WF, rolled 93 for each slot, and then 26 six times... For a total of six CTs. LOL. All for the low low price of 11,000 gp (stones included). (1 in 10 quadrillion chance of doing this, though the single slot is only 1 in 100 million)


maouse wrote:

... and be able to use "COMBAT TRICK" rogue talent more than once? The semantics of this are interesting: if I have a Wayfinder that grants this, I can't RE-TAKE the Combat Trick Rogue Talent because I have already selected it. If I have selected it already, I get a second Combat Trick by getting a resonating Ioun Stone/WF...

In theory I would be able to put my IS/WF down for 10 minutes when I level and take the Combat Trick, then pick up the IS/WF and get a second CT.

There's really no reason why that would work. The ioun resonance allows you to gain the benefit of a talent "as if [you] had selected it". Using it for a talent you already have would give you the same benefit as if you had selected that talent a second time, which is no benefit, because you can't select individual talents more than once.

Dark Archive

Well, as people have pointed out several times now, it is not the wayfinder producing this bonus, but the ioun stones.

Logically this would mean that the combat trick could be taken more than once, for different combat feats, if multiple ioun stones support this.

However, stacking them is mentioned as a problem since interference takes place.

I'm not really sure what you are describing with the last theory. But let me just say this; if you have a feat and you somehow lose the pre-requisites for this feat, you also lose the ability to use this feat. Once you meet its pre-requisites again, you'll be able to use it again.

And secondly, if it grants the knowledge of a single rogue talent--in this case combat trick--this would have to remain the same combat feat. You can't suddenly freely reassign an extra feat each level.

Sczarni

Natch wrote:
maouse wrote:

... and be able to use "COMBAT TRICK" rogue talent more than once? The semantics of this are interesting: if I have a Wayfinder that grants this, I can't RE-TAKE the Combat Trick Rogue Talent because I have already selected it. If I have selected it already, I get a second Combat Trick by getting a resonating Ioun Stone/WF...

In theory I would be able to put my IS/WF down for 10 minutes when I level and take the Combat Trick, then pick up the IS/WF and get a second CT.

There's really no reason why that would work. The ioun resonance allows you to gain the benefit of a talent "as if [you] had selected it". Using it for a talent you already have would give you the same benefit as if you had selected that talent a second time, which is no benefit, because you can't select individual talents more than once.

Naw, that is just a poor interpretation of the semantics. If you can't select it a second time, then you can't select it. If you CAN select it, then you can. "As if you did" means you CAN. "As if you did" means you get the benefit from it. I would bother to look up other items that do this, etc... but I think we all know it means you get the benefit.

Alternately, you could just get some other Rogue Talents (selectable once each) at first level. So you can be doing bleeding crits, fast stealth, and ledgewalking all at first level... still OP since it is basically FREE to craft.

Sczarni

Tiems wrote:

Well, as people have pointed out several times now, it is not the wayfinder producing this bonus, but the ioun stones.

Logically this would mean that the combat trick could be taken more than once, for different combat feats, if multiple ioun stones support this.

However, stacking them is mentioned as a problem since interference takes place.

I'm not really sure what you are describing with the last theory. But let me just say this; if you have a feat and you somehow lose the pre-requisites for this feat, you also lose the ability to use this feat. Once you meet its pre-requisites again, you'll be able to use it again.

And secondly, if it grants the knowledge of a single rogue talent--in this case combat trick--this would have to remain the same combat feat. You can't suddenly freely reassign an extra feat each level.

It is?

"In addition, the magic worked into the wayfinder amplifies the power of the ioun stone, usually (about 75% of the time) unlocking new abilities in addition to the stone’s normal power."

Dark Archive

Maouse wrote:
you could just get some other Rogue Talents (selectable once each) at first level. So you can be doing bleeding crits, fast stealth, and ledgewalking all at first level... still OP since it is basically FREE to craft.

Bleeding crits? Really? I didn't know rogues had a BAB of +11 at level 1. Or the critical focus feat, for that matter.

Sczarni

Tiems wrote:
Maouse wrote:
you could just get some other Rogue Talents (selectable once each) at first level. So you can be doing bleeding crits, fast stealth, and ledgewalking all at first level... still OP since it is basically FREE to craft.

Bleeding crits? Really? I didn't know rogues had a BAB of +11 at level 1. Or the critical focus feat, for that matter.

Bleeding Attack* - sorry, not crits, typo.

Dark Archive

Seekers of Secrets wrote:
"In addition, the magic worked into the wayfinder amplif ies the power of the ioun stone, usually (about 75% of the time) unlocking new abilities in addition to the stone’s normal power."

Are you arguing here that every time an ioun stone is docked it will have a 75% chance of producing an effect, which will differ each time you dock it?

Sczarni

Tiems wrote:
Seekers of Secrets wrote:
"In addition, the magic worked into the wayfinder amplif ies the power of the ioun stone, usually (about 75% of the time) unlocking new abilities in addition to the stone’s normal power."
Are you arguing here that every time an ioun stone is docked it will have a 75% chance of producing an effect, which will differ each time you dock it?

No, I am stating that the amplification comes from the power of the wayfinder, not the stone. A stone is a stone is a stone. A WF that amplifies stones (75% of them do) will amplify any stone placed in it. It will either have the effect listed in section 1 per the stone type OR if using the random rolling method (method 2) always grant the same power no matter which stone is amplified.

No, you don't roll every time you put a stone in. You roll ONE 75% chance to see if you have an amplifying WayFinder.


maouse wrote:
Alternately, you could just get some other Rogue Talents (selectable once each) at first level. So you can be doing bleeding crits, fast stealth, and ledgewalking all at first level... still OP since it is basically FREE to craft.

I think you're wildly underestimating how expensive crafting for specific resonant powers would be.

Say you want one specific power off of the list of 100 results. The cheapest ioun stone you can get, outside of the powerless dull grays, is the clear spindle, for 4000 gp each. Crafting them yourself reduces that to 2000 (though, do note, you can't craft ioun stones until 12th level per the requirements).

Now, only 75% of ioun stones have resonant powers in the first place. In order to get 100 resonant ioun stones, you'll have to craft 134 of them and sort out the dead ones. 134 * 2000 = 268000 gp to get one of every resonant power. That also means you're spending the better part of a year working on this collection.

At 268000 gp, you have now crafted one of every single resonant stone. There is not a single resonant power that even remotely justifies that price. You have, at best, a single extra feat, while others in your party are fully decked out with top-tier equipment.

Dark Archive

Let me just conclude by quoting the following.

A normal wayfinder has one slot for an ioun stone. The one with the highest number of slots is the wayfinder of Passage. Priced 136.000 or 68.000 to craft.

wayfinder of passge wrote:
Three slots on the inner side of the lid can each hold one ioun stone.

and it also mentions that

seekers of secrets wrote:
The auras of multiple augmenting wayfinders tend to interfere with each other; a person with one who tries to hold or carry a second usually finds that both sputter out in just a few seconds, but activate again once the second one is set aside. Some advanced, expensive wayfinders may hold more than one ioun stone at the same time and still function (though another wayfinder can interfere if brought too close).

So at best you can make use of 3 combat feats, for rogues, for which they meet the pre-requisites, provided that you spend 68.000 gp on crafting a wayfinder of passage, and craft the three ioun stones.


maouse wrote:

No, I am stating that the amplification comes from the power of the wayfinder, not the stone. A stone is a stone is a stone. A WF that amplifies stones (75% of them do) will amplify any stone placed in it. It will either have the effect listed in section 1 per the stone type OR if using the random rolling method (method 2) always grant the same power no matter which stone is amplified.

No, you don't roll every time you put a stone in. You roll ONE 75% chance to see if you have an amplifying WayFinder.

That's incorrect.

Ioun Stones wrote:
Resonant Powers: Only 25% of cracked or flawed ioun stones have resonant powers (see Wayfinders and Ioun Stones) compared to the 75% chance for typical ioun stones; only 10% of scorched ioun stones have resonant powers.

Sczarni

Natch wrote:
maouse wrote:
Alternately, you could just get some other Rogue Talents (selectable once each) at first level. So you can be doing bleeding crits, fast stealth, and ledgewalking all at first level... still OP since it is basically FREE to craft.

I think you're wildly underestimating how expensive crafting for specific resonant powers would be.

Say you want one specific power off of the list of 100 results. The cheapest ioun stone you can get, outside of the powerless dull grays, is the clear spindle, for 4000 gp each. Crafting them yourself reduces that to 2000 (though, do note, you can't craft ioun stones until 12th level per the requirements).

Now, only 75% of ioun stones have resonant powers in the first place. In order to get 100 resonant ioun stones, you'll have to craft 134 of them and sort out the dead ones. 134 * 2000 = 268000 gp to get one of every resonant power. That also means you're spending the better part of a year working on this collection.

At 268000 gp, you have now crafted one of every single resonant stone. There is not a single resonant power that even remotely justifies that price. You have, at best, a single extra feat, while others in your party are fully decked out with top-tier equipment.

to wit I continue to quote:

"Unfortunately, the energy required is such that the magical properties of the wayfinder itself are diverted to power the ioun stone, temporarily negating the wayfinder’s normal abilities. The mechanism of using a wayfinder to boost the power of an ioun stone is usually called augmenting, channeling, enhancing, or resonating."

Dark Archive

maouse wrote:
No, you don't roll every time you put a stone in. You roll ONE 75% chance to see if you have an amplifying WayFinder.

The specific resonance you're using is in a list which clearly states the following:

"The resonant powers of the most common forms of ioun stones are listed below. "

The resonant powers of ... ioun stones.
Not of wayfinders.


Wayfinder wrote:

Within each wayfinder is a fine lattice of wires that serve to channel the power of ioun stones, allowing the owner of a wayfinder to benefit from a stone's power without the attendant risk of having a valuable item orbiting around her head. In addition, the magic worked into the wayfinder amplifies the power of the ioun stone, usually (about 75% of the time) unlocking new abilities in addition to the stone's normal power. Unfortunately, the energy required is such that the magical properties of the wayfinder itself are diverted to power the ioun stone, temporarily negating the wayfinder's normal abilities. The mechanism of using a wayfinder to boost the power of an ioun stone is usually called augmenting, channeling, enhancing, or resonating.

...

Method 2, The Random Roll: Each combination of an ioun stone and a wayfinder requires a roll on a table to see what resonant power it gains. This methods allows for a lot of variety but requires bookkeeping to track each unique stone's augmented power, and also makes it difficult for the PCs to predict what any particular combination may be. See the table on page 53.


Ioun stones have powers. Wayfinders boost them through some strange Azlanti magic thingy. The Ioun stone determines the resonance you get, not the wayfinder slot. Each Ioun stone has a specific resonance of their own.

I thought I already mentioned the idea of making a custom wayfinder with 50 slots a few post ago to get rid of that pesty interference?

Dark Archive

MrSin wrote:
I thought I already mentioned the idea of making a custom wayfinder with 50 slots a few post ago to get rid of that pesty interference?

Yeah, you did. Which would bring it firmly into the realm of crafting fully custom items, for which no rules even exist.

Calling that OP is like calling the belt that turns you into a Tarrasque OP... Well. Duh.

Clarify; not an attack at you. It would be a valid option, ofc, but would show that it is certainly not within the original rules, nor makes wayfinders OP.

Sczarni

Tiems wrote:
maouse wrote:
No, you don't roll every time you put a stone in. You roll ONE 75% chance to see if you have an amplifying WayFinder.

The specific resonance you're using is in a list which clearly states the following:

"The resonant powers of the most common forms of ioun stones are listed below. "

The resonant powers of ... ioun stones.
Not of wayfinders.

Alright, I'll cede this point. You roll once per stone to see if it has a resonant power in ANY wayfinder. Now, on to finding that one magical ioun stone that has the resonant power(s) you want...

cracked (25% resonance) for 200 GP, generalizing means 100 gp (half of 200 gp craft cost) per try. You need to craft 4 per chart roll under 90, so 360. This is only 36,000 gp to get the result you want.

So let's see, that is 36,000 TIMES 3 = 108,000 for a set of cracked Ioun stones that will grant you a +6 to any stat after 3 standard actions, or grant you +6 compentancy bonuses on skills, saves, etc... All you need is a handy haversack to throw them all in so you can recall them easily.

Dark Archive

Or, potentially, craft the stone itself. Or have it crafted?


maouse wrote:

Now, on to finding that one magical ioun stone that has the resonant power(s) you want...

cracked (25% resonance) for 200 GP, generalizing means 100 gp (half of 200 gp craft cost) per try. You need to craft 4 per chart roll under 90, so 360. This is only 36,000 gp to get the result you want.

Going with cracked stones does make it greatly cheaper, yeah, though at the cost of the spiffy primary power. Even then, though, there's really nothing on the list that can't be gotten somewhere else for cheaper.

The resonant powers aren't really the point of getting a wayfinder. Primarily, they're a 500 gp insurance policy to ensure that your 20000 gp magic flying rock isn't blown up by a stray fireball. The resonant powers make for a decent bonus, on occasion, but they just aren't impressive enough to justify huge cash expenditures.

Sczarni

Natch wrote:
maouse wrote:

Now, on to finding that one magical ioun stone that has the resonant power(s) you want...

cracked (25% resonance) for 200 GP, generalizing means 100 gp (half of 200 gp craft cost) per try. You need to craft 4 per chart roll under 90, so 360. This is only 36,000 gp to get the result you want.

Going with cracked stones does make it greatly cheaper, yeah, though at the cost of the spiffy primary power. Even then, though, there's really nothing on the list that can't be gotten somewhere else for cheaper.

The resonant powers aren't really the point of getting a wayfinder. Primarily, they're a 500 gp insurance policy to ensure that your 20000 gp magic flying rock isn't blown up by a stray fireball. The resonant powers make for a decent bonus, on occasion, but they just aren't impressive enough to justify huge cash expenditures.

Let's go down the list of what you get for 108,000 gp:

+6 to any stat/skill/all saves
+4 any stat/skill/all saves, +2 Natural Armor
3 favored enemies
Channel energy 3x more a day
lay hands 3x more a day
3 extra ki
5 + combat feats, 3 rogue talents (if rogue)
Crafting feat (potions)
water breathing
endure elements
6 extra hp per die while healing (? might only be 2)
3 extra languages
tons of detection abilities
weaksauce SR
several weaker at will powers, sending (other wayfinders), mirror image, invisibility, etc. spells.
3 teleports per week (designated at creation of stone - so if you want to set up places you frequent... there you go)

Not OP enough? I will grant you that it is not as great as having something that allows you to do this all all the time, but simply taking standard actions to swap out abilities makes it perhaps the most versatile instrument in the game for 108,000 gp (and providing you just make a standard 3 slot WF, you can add 68,000 and get those abilities too if you want - I'd prefer a 3 slot with no added abilities due to price...)

Ps. Just for the heck of it: have your three in your WF, and release the other 357 to orbit around you!!! Sure they can make a grab check to take one... 356 to go .... If you play it right, releasing the remaining stones will grant you +1 to all skills continuously. Or, better yet, drop the 920 FAILS into orbit...


maouse wrote:

Let's go down the list of what you get for 108,000 gp:

+2 to any stat/skill/all saves enhancement/competence/resistance bonuses don't stack, and all those are much cheaper to get on wondrous items anyway
+2 any stat/skill/all saves, +2 Natural Armor amulet of natural armor +2, 8000 gp
3 favored enemies admittedly nice, but a bane enchantment is a better deal
Channel energy 3x more a day +6 Charisma does that, 36000 gp
lay hands 3x more a day and this, too
3 extra ki +6 Wisdom or Charisma, depending on class
5 + combat feats, 3 rogue talents (if rogue) if you have any need of these feats, you'd have gotten them long before 12th level, and wouldn't have spent a feat on craft wondrous item
Crafting feat (potions) same
water breathing bottle of air, 7250 gp
endure elements comfort's cloak, 15600 with many extras
6 extra hp per die while healing (? might only be 2) cure spells only, and equivalent to a couple extra charges off a wand
3 extra languages potions of tongues, 750 gp each
tons of detection abilities
weaksauce SR weaksauce, as you say
several weaker at will powers, sending (other wayfinders), mirror image, invisibility, etc. spells.
3 teleports per week (designated at creation of stone - so if you want to set up places you frequent... there you go) boots of teleportation, 49000 gp, 3 teleports per day

Not one thing you've listed is worth 108000 gp, and most can be had much cheaper elsewhere.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32

Moot points there's such a thing as a GM that won't allow abuses this blatent. I agree with the general consenous that you are misinterpreting the rules here.

Sczarni

Natch wrote:
maouse wrote:

Let's go down the list of what you get for 108,000 gp:

+2 to any stat/skill/all saves enhancement/competence/resistance bonuses don't stack, and all those are much cheaper to get on wondrous items anyway
+2 any stat/skill/all saves, +2 Natural Armor amulet of natural armor +2, 8000 gp

Well, the Skills would be +3 total (because they would be +1 from the cracked stone which does stack with the resonance +2). Otherwise mostly right.

Let me have you look at it from the other side:
I buy three items with +6 stats (or one item with three stats). I have spent 77,000 gp., another 77,000 and I have spent 154,000 and have only started to do what the ioun stones let me do (namely I have gotten stats, damage buffs, saves, and skill mods, but not a single additional spell, ability, or detection). Do you really want to throw in the boots and take up ANOTHER item slot and 49,000? (granted, boots with 3/week would only cost 7000 instead)

So for 1.5x what this costs I can get a lot less... Obviously you can get one or two things way cheaper. But the net effect is worth way more than 108,000 gp.

Sczarni

GM_Solspiral wrote:
Moot points there's such a thing as a GM that won't allow abuses this blatent. I agree with the general consenous that you are misinterpreting the rules here.

mis-interpretations are getting corrected as we discuss it. I have already stated I agree (in my first post) there wouldn't be a GM alive who would allow such a thing to happen. And that is kind of my point. They are way too OP to include AS IS in any campaign. You get free abilities without ever paying for them simply because they "magically" can resonate.

Now, the PROPER method of pricing an IOUN STONE would include it's resonance ability. Or at least that is how I would price them.

ps. per the rules, the level restriction can be ignored can't it? "The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spelltrigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting
their spell prerequisites." (yes, I realize it says "the only" and then "in addition"... )


maouse wrote:

Let me have you look at it from the other side:

I buy three items with +6 stats (or one item with three stats). I have spent 77,000 gp., another 77,000 and I have spent 154,000 and have only started to do what the ioun stones let me do (namely I have gotten stats, damage buffs, saves, and skill mods, but not a single additional spell, ability, or detection). Do you really want to throw in the boots and take up ANOTHER item slot and 49,000? (granted, boots with 3/week would only cost 7000 instead)

So for 1.5x what this costs I can get a lot less... Obviously you can get one or two things way cheaper. But the net effect is worth way more than 108,000 gp.

Firstly, three +6 items comes out to 108000 gp total. I'm not sure where you got those other numbers. And keep in mind, the only three-stone wayfinder listed is another 136000 by itself.

Secondly, those three items grant far greater bonuses than the ioun stones do. An Int item keeps three skills at max ranks, effectively giving you 3 skill points per level, plus a +3 to five skills. Dex gives +3 to AC, one save, seven skills, ranged or finessed attack, and initiative. Add in whatever your casting stat is, or Strength for a fighter, and you've got a pile of bonuses the stones can't begin to match, especially keeping in mind that only three can be active at a time.

As for the stones' unique bonuses, they just aren't that impressive. The spell selection is mostly laughable, a bunch of low-level spells with restricted castings that take a full round to retrieve and slot in before you can cast them. Some of the unique abilities are worth having, but with only three slots, keeping them active means denying yourself any other bonuses. As for the detections... I'm really not sure how a compass that points at tieflings or aboleth would be useful outside of very specific plots.


maouse wrote:
Now, the PROPER method of pricing an IOUN STONE would include it's resonance ability. Or at least that is how I would price them.

No offense, but it seems like the only scenario where they become remotely OP is when you've powergamed them to hell and back. It's pretty obvious that the intent behind resonance powers was not to have someone craft nearly a thousand ioun stones in order to have multiples of every single possible power. The random power table allows for a degree of randomness when digging an ioun stone out of a mound of treasure, giving great powers to some and lame powers to others. Taking advantage of the crafting rules to hoard all the great powers defeats the purpose of random power selection entirely.

Sczarni

Natch wrote:
maouse wrote:

Let me have you look at it from the other side:

I buy three items with +6 stats (or one item with three stats). I have spent 77,000 gp., another 77,000 and I have spent 154,000 and have only started to do what the ioun stones let me do (namely I have gotten stats, damage buffs, saves, and skill mods, but not a single additional spell, ability, or detection). Do you really want to throw in the boots and take up ANOTHER item slot and 49,000? (granted, boots with 3/week would only cost 7000 instead)

So for 1.5x what this costs I can get a lot less... Obviously you can get one or two things way cheaper. But the net effect is worth way more than 108,000 gp.

Firstly, three +6 items comes out to 108000 gp total. I'm not sure where you got those other numbers. And keep in mind, the only three-stone wayfinder listed is another 136000 by itself.

Secondly, those three items grant far greater bonuses than the ioun stones do. An Int item keeps three skills at max ranks, effectively giving you 3 skill points per level, plus a +3 to five skills. Dex gives +3 to AC, one save, seven skills, ranged or finessed attack, and initiative. Add in whatever your casting stat is, or Strength for a fighter, and you've got a pile of bonuses the stones can't begin to match, especially keeping in mind that only three can be active at a time.

As for the stones' unique bonuses, they just aren't that impressive. The spell selection is mostly laughable, a bunch of low-level spells with restricted castings that take a full round to retrieve and slot in before you can cast them. Some of the unique abilities are worth having, but with only three slots, keeping them active means denying yourself any other bonuses. As for the detections... I'm really not sure how a compass that points at tieflings or aboleth would be useful outside of very specific plots.

77,000 gp is the crafting price for a 3 stat +6 item. So two of them grant +3 to all skills. That is EVEN with the IOUN stones skill bonus, with the exceptions we both pointed out: the IOUN stone method costs 108,000, the stat method costs 154,000. The stat method gives you three skills at rank CL.

As for the "only three slot" being expensive... yeh, well, I would craft a three slot WITHOUT any abilities added. Cause first I don't like any it has, and second, it would be way cheaper to make one without any abilities (since stones are going to be in it anyway).

As for the other bonuses you get with stats. I'd concede that getting +3 AC, +3 to hit/damage, +3 saves, +3 INIT, +3 CMB, +6 CMD is a nice set of bonuses to go along with whatever class bonuses it might raise.

But one has to keep in mind that getting three extra Feats is also nice. Say you are a rogue and want options, or are missing the end of an entire combat tree (1 feat)? There ya go!


maouse wrote:
77,000 gp is the crafting price for a 3 stat +6 item. So two of them grant +3 to all skills. That is EVEN with the IOUN stones skill bonus, with the exceptions we both pointed out: the IOUN stone method costs 108,000, the stat method costs 154,000. The stat method gives you three skills at rank CL.

Oh, you're talking crafting prices instead of purchase prices. I get that now. Still, there's no reason to get all the bonuses on a single item, you've got plenty of slots and that just drives up the price. Also, I don't think there's any build that needs +6 to ALL stats. Most builds try to stay focused on one or two stats, so boosting three is generally plenty. And while the ioun pile can match a +3 to a skill, they can only do that for three stats at a time.

maouse wrote:
But one has to keep in mind that getting three extra Feats is also nice. Say you are a rogue and want options, or are missing the end of an entire combat tree (1 feat)? There ya go!

Thing is, the feats on offer just aren't very good. Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike all lead into feat trees, but if you waited long enough to save up a hundred thousand gold, you've long since passed the point where you'd pick them up if you needed them. There are no high-level feats on offer, nor any with fancy prerequisites that would make them hard to access.


maouse wrote:
As for the "only three slot" being expensive... yeh, well, I would craft a three slot WITHOUT any abilities added. Cause first I don't like any it has, and second, it would be way cheaper to make one without any abilities (since stones are going to be in it anyway).

so again this falls into the 'creating custom items' section as you are not actually creating the wayfinder of passage but rather a custom version of a regular wayfinder that has 3 slots.

There was a thread a while ago about someone creating a one use only, wand of wishes that only cost a couple thousand and is a prime example of abusing the creating custom items section.

Honestly the whole basis of your argument rests on putting 3 stones in a single wayfinder. The only wayfinder in print with 3 slots is the wayfinder of passage, so to do what you want to do, you first have to spend 136000 or 68000 with up to +25 DC to ignore the spell requirements. The earliest you should be able to get this kinda cash is lvl 11 anyways and NOW you can spend an additional 108000 to get the nice ioun stone collection you are talking about or 14th level just for the cash. So you have no magical weapons, no magical armor, no bonus spells via gold, no useful wonderous items or any consumables.

Putting in a single ioun stone into a normal wayfinder is actually a cheap way to get some intresting effects but can and often does rely on a gm being lenient to get something useful, or incredibly incredibly lucky, in which case go to the casino instead.

The only thing you are proving is that custom magic items can be broken if you try to, and everybody already knew that. Here, I got this liars ring, it grants a constant glibness spell.


maouse wrote:
GM_Solspiral wrote:
Moot points there's such a thing as a GM that won't allow abuses this blatent. I agree with the general consenous that you are misinterpreting the rules here.

mis-interpretations are getting corrected as we discuss it. I have already stated I agree (in my first post) there wouldn't be a GM alive who would allow such a thing to happen. And that is kind of my point. They are way too OP to include AS IS in any campaign. You get free abilities without ever paying for them simply because they "magically" can resonate.

Now, the PROPER method of pricing an IOUN STONE would include it's resonance ability. Or at least that is how I would price them.

ps. per the rules, the level restriction can be ignored can't it? "The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spelltrigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting
their spell prerequisites." (yes, I realize it says "the only" and then "in addition"... )

The rules as they are, are just fine. Stick to method one, and ban the munchkin trying to exploit something rather then the item. This isn't a blatant broken item and needs to be knowingly power game to be exploited. If a player is willing to spend 130,000gp to benefit from three stones, good for him.

The frontliner just buys a vorpal sword for that sum and behead demons.


The resonance shuts off the wayfinder, not the stone. No big deal if all you have is the 250 gp standard issue way finder that can no longer cast light. Some of the more expensive wayfinders... notsomuch.


The only reason the resnonant powers work in the wayfinder is because the power of the wayfinder's inherent magical abilities is redirected into the stone, producing an effect that depends on either the individual stone or type of stone depending on GM's preference. If the wayfinder didn't have any magical abilities, the resonant powers just wouldn't happen, even if it did have three physical slots.

At least that seems the most logical thing.

Honestly, the amount of effort you're putting into cheesing this should be an obvious sign that it shouldn't work by GM Fiat even if the rules as written technically support it. There are certainly better uses of a pathfinder character's time and money anyway.

Also I'm pretty sure the compass function still works while it's resonating... That's just a mundane compass (unless one of the resonant powers overwrites the compass function)

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