nobody mentioned the intimidate check ?
It is also rolled on CHA because indeed it doese not only have to do with looks.
and hitler defenetly had a high CHA, if you can have a whole people folow you into a world war you damn well need an AMAZING CHA and dont forget EVIL creatures can have a HIGH CHA aswell.
As one said it is a score to show how well you can influence people in believing your point of vieuw or force your will upon others.
Emperor Palpatine
For those who insist Charisma = Attractiveness, this is apparently what 17 Charisma looks like.
I don't really buy the "Hitler was charismatic" angle. I've seen the videos. He was loud. 'Bout it. Someone (anyone) could have been Hitler at the time; Germany was in such turmoil that any number of people could have filled his shoes. If there was no Hitler, I'm sure someone else would have stepped into his place.
Maybe someone would stepped into his shoes... somewhat. But it's hard to argue they'd have had the same effect. Ultimately, there's no way to tell since we can't repeat the experiment.
For my money, defining Hitler as an 18 Charisma was based on one edition's definition of Charisma. I think 3e and later might have had another take on Hitler. One major departure from 1e is the training of skills. Hitler was known to stand in front of a mirror for hours practicing his poses and deliveries for maximum effectiveness. This could be modeled with heavy ranks in diplomacy and/or performance (oratory) and maybe some skill focus feats. His Charisma could then be downgraded in natural ability, but I still wouldn't go below 14 (maybe not even below 16).
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Short Answer: Yes.
Long Answer: From the CRB "Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance." So it can be an indicator, but it is also listed last amoung all of the factors Charisma governs.
Unless you decide to handwave it all away, Charisma should be indicated somewhere. A Night Hag for example, inspite of a hideous appearance, has a high Charisma that can literally drive people mad so they are able to steal and then broker souls. They aren't charismatic in the "Pretty" sense, but they are are very much able to manipulate.
Think of it this way. A Wizard learns spells through study and practice. A Sorcerer does it through sheer force of charisma. They are given spells because of how cool the universe thinks they are. Charisma is far more than beauty (although beauty doesn't hurt...) and it shouldn't be oversimplified as "pretty" in the same way it shouldn't be dismissed as a dump stat in any game that where role playing even moderately comes into play.
Rude answer: Your Mom
This debate reminds me of why I used to like the Comeliness ability, that was introduced in 1st Ed AD&D, in UnEarthed Arcana. It was a 7th score, that was entirely about looks, letting your charisma be entirely about personality and force of will.
Comeliness could be positively or negatively affected by charisma, especially after getting to know the person. Other factors that affected the comeliness score was race, and sometimes gender. And beauty was often in the eyes of a beholder, as an elf might view a dwarf as being unattractive, but another dwarf would disagree with that assessment.
The game effect of Comeliness was usually ignored by DM's, as it was probably too powerful. I seem to recall it was a form of Fascinate for very high scores, and Revulsion for very low scores. But it was a useful way for characters to separate looks and personality.
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Yes. In the same sense that a dwarven woman can have a charisma of 6 and be a damn sexy thick chick (until you get close enough to notice the height difference :P)
Then again... there are those who might appreciate the height difference for certain... purposes...
****************NSFW NSFW NSFW NSFW *****************************
Bridget the Midget.
NSFW!!!!
I don't really buy the "Hitler was charismatic" angle. I've seen the videos. He was loud. 'Bout it. Someone (anyone) could have been Hitler at the time; Germany was in such turmoil that any number of people could have filled his shoes. If there was no Hitler, I'm sure someone else would have stepped into his place.
Have you seen any of his speeches in their entirety?
Because speeches tend to have an emotional climax. I'm pretty certain you've only seen the later part of them and none of the buildup to that point. He would not stand up there and start shouting randomly. There was a plan.
You have a point, Yellowdingo (and no, I haven't seen them in them in their entirety).
I've had characters with horribly low charisma be excessively beautiful, but I RP them a little rough around the edges.
Likewise, I've had some quasimoto lookin' characters with great charisma that play it by personality.
Make it what you want! Find a way to tie that 16 charisma into your characters persona! She might be GORGEOUS to others of her race, or she might be the ugliest thing that ever lived, but carries it with a level of dignity and grace that inspires others around her.
It's your character! OWN IT! <3
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For those who insist Charisma = Attractiveness, this is apparently what 17 Charisma looks like.
I'm highly aroused by this.
I am in agreement with everyone who has stated that CHA isn't only a matter of good looks/beauty. I feel it can be a part of why someone has a high charisma, but it is not the only thing that reflects this. Personality and the ability to inspire or attract people to your cause are markers of high charisma.
You can play a half-orc paladin who is horribly scarred and missing an eye, with broken tusks and a hunched back, but he can have a 20+ Charisma because of how respected he is with his faith and his ability to inspire greatness in others. He will attract followers and be able to speak eloquently to lords and the common folk alike.
Examples were also made of plenty of monsters having very high charisma, but they were very ugly to look at.
So my point in all this is to think outside of the box when thinking of charisma, don't be so superficial in regards to it meaning ONLY good looks.
Emperor Palpatine
Yoda!
Megan Fox.
Tyrion Lannister
See: The Best of Tyrion Lannister - Game of Thrones, Season 1 (Warning: GoT Spoilers!)
In the comments section of the video:
Angel77777771: Just goes to show, it doesn't matter who you are or what you look like, you can be attractive just by being confident and funny. Man, I would definitely sleep with Tyrion.
Tyrion Lannister: You wouldn't be the first.
Cersei Lannister: Oh, shut up, you little fool.
Moonbeasts.
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On a side note does anyone feel that charisma should be what affects Will saves rather than wisdom?
I liked it when Victory games replaced the nebulous and poorly-defined "Wisdom" and "Charisma," respectively, with "Perception" and "Willpower."
The reason the game uses Wisdom is because it's supposed to represent, in part, mental fortitude. Though, the case for Cha-based Will is pretty understandable, at least against mind-effecting abilities (force of personality, and what not).
On a side note does anyone feel that charisma should be what affects Will saves rather than wisdom?
I actually use that. To give Wisdom something back, I put it in charge of ranged attacks (considering that it's the basis of the Perception skill, after all); using much the same logic, I know that Alice Margatroid uses Wis for initiative.
In both cases, we're stealing from Dex, which already has too much to do.
Tyrion Lannister
See: The Best of Tyrion Lannister - Game of Thrones, Season 1 (Warning: GoT Spoilers!)
In the comments section of the video:
Angel77777771: Just goes to show, it doesn't matter who you are or what you look like, you can be attractive just by being confident and funny. Man, I would definitely sleep with Tyrion.
Tyrion Lannister: You wouldn't be the first.
Cersei Lannister: Oh, shut up, you little fool.
Although to be fair, Peter Dinklage.
On a side note does anyone feel that charisma should be what affects Will saves rather than wisdom?
I went off on a tirade in a similar vein with one of my GMs. It still drives me nuts. I'm biased though because I tend to play Cha based casters.
On a side note does anyone feel that charisma should be what affects Will saves rather than wisdom?I went off on a tirade in a similar vein with one of my GMs. It still drives me nuts. I'm biased though because I tend to play Cha based casters.
The argument I would make, is that Wisdom would be the opposite of Foolishness. And a fool is going to be susceptable to spells that require a Will save. A case can be made for Charisma aiding (or hurting) Will saves. But a similar case could also be made for Intelligence.
As someone that does not like to see players build characters with scores in the negatives, I would like to see a beneficial or harmful affect for each score. Just floating an idea, but would the system be wrecked if the Will save was a combination of Wisdom, Intelligence and Charisma? Besides the obvious benefit of potentially increasing Will saves, I see it as a way to level out some ability scores a bit more, with perhaps not so much min/maxing.
It seems to be, that failed Will saves are usually the most harmful. Also, almost any Will save is the result of a Spell or Spell-like affect. I may have missed it, but I do not see people complaining that spellcasters' are too weak. Usually it is the opposite, that other classes cannot compete. So, would making a Will save easier to increase ruin the game?
I know this is controversial, and not likely to ever be adopted. Curious to see if there is any support for such an idea, and hope the flames are not too severe.
On a side note does anyone feel that charisma should be what affects Will saves rather than wisdom?
I can see the argument, but I prefer to link Charisma and Wisdom together as an active/passive, offensive/defensive pair. I'd put all offensive uses of Wisdom (including divine spellcasting) under Charisma before I'd put the Will save there.
I also like the Strength/Constitution pairing too.
The only pair that isn't an obvious match is Intelligence/Dexterity. But I can see making Intelligence (thinking of intelligence as acuity or keenness) the offensive member of that pair and have affect wizard spells and ranged/finesse attacks. Dex would be defensive/reactive and used for AC, initiative, and Ref saves.
My last group actually voted in another mental save. So now there's:
INTUITION SAVE (Wis-based): vs. illusions, curses, charm effects.
WILL SAVE (Cha-based): vs. mental assaults, fear, complusions.
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This is a HUGE case of beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Why do only Beholders get to decide beauty? Is it because they have 11 eyes? I think I would rather trust the opinion of Drow myself. Drow chicks a hot and obviously spend a lot of time doing their hair.
Someone needs to stand up for the rights of other monsters to determine beauty.
"Beauty is in the eye of the Gelatinous Cube" for example. Hmmm, do they have eyes? Ok bad example.
I have a Wayang Wizard in a monstrous Pathfinder Campaign, she has 16 CHA, but the people I play with contend that because she is a Wayang, she is still hella fugly, agree/disagree?
Appearance is a small aspect of cha. In my group you could be hot with a seven or ugly with an eighteen.
On a side note does anyone feel that charisma should be what affects Will saves rather than wisdom?
I would be in favor of this if it wouldn't throw off game balance. Paladins would become completely nuts when it comes to saving throws since they would essentially get double Cha to will saves.
On a side note does anyone feel that charisma should be what affects Will saves rather than wisdom?
I would be in favor of this if it wouldn't throw off game balance. Paladins would become completely nuts when it comes to saving throws since they would essentially get double Cha to will saves.
I had forgotten about the paladin save bonus from saves. I now change my position of making charisma the basis for will saves, and say leave it as it is. Otherwise, you are taking something that is unique to one class and removing that advantage.
If someone wants to have Charisma bonus for will saves, the choice is obvious, play a paladin.
There is no charge for awesomeness Or attractiveness!
(comliness was a short lived DnD attribute to measure good looks...oh the elusive seventh stat)
I don't really buy the "Hitler was charismatic" angle. I've seen the videos. He was loud. 'Bout it. Someone (anyone) could have been Hitler at the time; Germany was in such turmoil that any number of people could have filled his shoes. If there was no Hitler, I'm sure someone else would have stepped into his place.He was incredibly charismatic - though was clearly helped by pushing a message many Germans at the time were open to hearing. You may have seen the videos of his oratory performances, but have you seen the responses of his audience? The adulation, intoxication and adoration?
Saying "I've seen the videos. He was loud. 'bout it" is incredibly dismissive of everyone who suffered due to his actions.
Also, missing out on the fact of: How did Hitler become leader of the Nazi Party and Chancellor of Germany? Through power of personality.
Sure were there people not convinced by him? Definitely, but his sweep to power was so fast and complete the doubters were swept up in fear and intimidation before they could say "ummmm...."
National socialism was brand new to germany, there weren't democrats or republicans, they were a virtually unheard of party that took control swiftly out of nowhere.
Many many influential people where swept up by hitler's charisma to join the party, which made it all the more intimidating to those that didnt agree.
You also have to bear in mind that all the "bad things" about the nazi party were not easily apparent until well after their rise to power and much of it happened in secret at night (to start with)
So it wasn't until 1940 ish that Hitler/Nazi = Bad.
The Nazi Party had ALOT of American supporters prior to 1942 and still some even after that.
It wasnt even well known what was going on by the normal person until AFTER 1945.
Even Germans who lived there didn't know the full truth of it; which gave way to holocaust deniers and people who "apparently" were denying or lying that they didn't know.
It's not easy to pull the wool over 85% of a countries eyes (secreting away troublesome people int he night with your death squad helps) that takes a high degree of charisma.
Don't give me that! I wasn't condoning the man, nor was I dismissing the suffering of his victims. All I said is that he wasn't as charismatic as people tend to think he was. Many of the German people were receptive to his message, but that in no way speaks of his force or personality. It was already a popular viewpoint at the time. They were positively foaming at the mouth for an opportunity to externalize blame for their post-war economic collapse.
That said, this in no way undermines the role he's played in history, or the terrible consequences of his actions. Not in the slightest.
I don't even know how you could come to that conclusion.
Let's start with the the casual dismissiveness of "I've seen the videos. He was Loud. 'bout it". Or the acknowledgement that you are making a comment based on seeing "the videos". Seriously, there are so many things wrong with your statement it's hard to know where to begin.
I'll leave it to the other posters to comment on how he came to power and his influence.