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Many threads lately have tried to determine whether an act is evil or not, but I'd like to avoid that discussion here. Lets say a PFS character knowingly commits an evil act. How do I, as a GM, proceed? All I know so far is this:
PC: "I want to do ____."
GM: "____ is considered an evil act in PFS, are you sure you want to proceed?"
PC: "Yes, I want to do ____."
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You should respond with something along the lines of "This may have an impact on your alignment" If they persist in the action make a note of it on their Chronicle sheet. A few evil acts and their character incurs an alignment shift.
Or one overwhelmingly evil act automatically incurs an alignment shift. Like say channeling negative energy in a school yard without excluding children. You go through the procedure and then give them the alignment shift immediately.
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Oh! Sorry. Sure enough:
Alignment Infractions
Characters who commit potentially evil acts (casting spells with the Evil descriptor, killing or maiming someone, etc.) while following specific orders from their faction or the Pathfinder Society, do not suffer alignment infractions. These are cases where karma applies to those making the orders, not their tools. However, “that’s just what my character would do” is not a defense for behaving like a jerk. Alignment infractions are a touchy subject. Ultimately, the GM is the final authority at the table, but she must warn any player whose character is deviating from his chosen alignment. This warning must be clear, and the GM must make sure that the player understands the warning and the actions that initiated the warning. The PC should be given the opportunity to correct the behavior, justify it, or face the consequences. We believe a deity would forgive a one-time bad choice as long as the action wasn’t too egregious (such as burning down an orphanage full of children, killing a peasant for no good reason but sport, etc.). Hence, the GM can issue a warning to the player through a “feeling” he receives from his deity, a vision he is given, his conscience talking to him, or some other similar roleplaying event.
If infractions continue in the course of the scenario or sanctioned module, an alignment change may be in order. If the GM deems these continued actions warrant an alignment change, she should note it on the character’s Chronicle sheet at the end of the session in the Conditions Gained box. The character may remove this gained condition through an atonement spell. If the condition is removed, the GM should also note it on the Chronicle sheet. Characters who become wantonly evil, whose actions are deliberate and without motive or provocation, are retired from the campaign. This measure is a last resort; there is more than one way to play a given alignment. If a character has become wantonly evil as defined above, the GM should escalate the report to the convention
coordinator, or the local Venture-Captain or Venture- Lieutenant. If they agree with the GM, then the character is deemed wantonly evil and considered removed from the campaign. Again, these measures should be taken as a very last resort. In the event of a wantonly evil character, record the character as “Dead,” and the person who enters the tracking sheet should check that box as well. If the convention coordinator, Venture-Captain, or Venture-Lieutenant decides the character fits the criteria for being wantonly evil, she will then email the campaign coordinator to advise him of the situation, including the player’s name,
Pathfinder Society Number, character name, and email address. She will advise the player of these actions and offer the player the campaign coordinator’s email address so the player may present his case. The Campaign Coordinator will present all facts to the Venture-Captains and Venture-Lieutenants at large with all names (both player and character) removed. If the majority of Venture-Captains and Venture-Lieutenants feel that the act was wantonly evil and the character is irrevocably evil, then character will remain removed from the campaign. If the majority feel the character should be able to atone for his actions, the campaign coordinator will contact the player and advise him of such. The email may be printed and taken to the next game session so the GM may adjudicate the atonement and document it on the Chronicle sheet of the that game.
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You should respond with something along the lines of "This may have an impact on your alignment" If they persist in the action make a note of it on their Chronicle sheet. A few evil acts and their character incurs an alignment shift.
To be fair shouldn't we be marking this for all directions of alignment (good, evil, lawful, chaotic). Then we have a fair and balanced view. For example a neutral character may be pushed towards neutral good or lawful neutral by his actions.
I assume a neutral PC is being pushed towards good just by helping to eliminate an evil cult in ongoing society missions, and may have to do some balancing evil actions to maintain his neutral status. Just recording his evil actions would present an unbalanced view.
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You should respond with something along the lines of "This may have an impact on your alignment" If they persist in the action make a note of it on their Chronicle sheet. A few evil acts and their character incurs an alignment shift.To be fair shouldn't we be marking this for all directions of alignment (good, evil, lawful, chaotic). Then we have a fair and balanced view. For example a neutral character may be pushed towards neutral good or lawful neutral by his actions.
I assume a neutral PC is being pushed towards good just by helping to eliminate an evil cult in ongoing society missions, and may have to do some balancing evil actions to maintain his neutral status. Just recording his evil actions would present an unbalanced view.
To be fair, yes. To be resonable, no. Alignment issues have always been a major pain in D&D, especially in organized play where you never know how much of a stickler your DM is going to be. So avoiding the necessity of such judgements will greatly reduce conflict. The only reason it matters for evil is that it is much more likely to have a direct effect on your character's ability to play the game.
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You should respond with something along the lines of "This may have an impact on your alignment" If they persist in the action make a note of it on their Chronicle sheet. A few evil acts and their character incurs an alignment shift.To be fair shouldn't we be marking this for all directions of alignment (good, evil, lawful, chaotic). Then we have a fair and balanced view. For example a neutral character may be pushed towards neutral good or lawful neutral by his actions.
I assume a neutral PC is being pushed towards good just by helping to eliminate an evil cult in ongoing society missions, and may have to do some balancing evil actions to maintain his neutral status. Just recording his evil actions would present an unbalanced view.
I asked about how I would go about changing alignments from Lawful Neutral to True Netural a few weeks ago, and after explaining my reasoning, it was clear that nobody particularly cared if I did or not.
It only seems to be an issue with evil because you're talking about removing the character from organised play.
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Here's a fun one for a feeding frenzy:
If a Paladin who doesn't like to kill lets an evil creature live (i.e. drops it to -1 hp but doesn't make sure it dies), committing an evil act / violation of paladin class code?
I'd say your Paladin and Batman would have blood on their hands if the evil creature somehow survives and kills again.
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Here's a fun one for a feeding frenzy:
If a Paladin who doesn't like to kill lets an evil creature live (i.e. drops it to -1 hp but doesn't make sure it dies), committing an evil act / violation of paladin class code?
If I may quote Gandalf concerning a certain evil creature "Pity? It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many - yours not least."
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I'd say your Paladin and Batman would have blood on their hands if the evil creature somehow survives and kills again.Then there is a lot of blood on Batman's hands since he doesn't kill anybody. Just the Joker alone with his revolving door stay at Arkham. ;)
So are you saying Batman is evil?
I'm not saying Batman is evil, but every time he lets the Joker live instead of killing him, he's putting more lives at risk.
And I would say that if he is already incapacitated (-1 hp) then killing him would be an evil act.
He is helpless, cannot hurt you or others, and you can freely do with him what you will (tie him up, turn him over for trial, whatever). In some exigent cases I can still see killing him, but killing helpless people is normally a pretty black thing to do.
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And I would say that if he is already incapacitated (-1 hp) then killing him would be an evil act.
He is helpless, cannot hurt you or others, and you can freely do with him what you will (tie him up, turn him over for trial, whatever). In some exigent cases I can still see killing him, but killing helpless people is normally a pretty black thing to do.
That puts Golarion's criminal justice system(s) in a tough spot, as every single properly-tried-and-convicted criminal who is hanged/beheaded/whatever by the state is helpless at the time. So every criminal execution is an evil act?
Not so sure I buy that one, sorry.
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And I would say that if he is already incapacitated (-1 hp) then killing him would be an evil act.
He is helpless, cannot hurt you or others, and you can freely do with him what you will (tie him up, turn him over for trial, whatever). In some exigent cases I can still see killing him, but killing helpless people is normally a pretty black thing to do.
That puts Golarion's criminal justice system(s) in a tough spot, as every single properly-tried-and-convicted criminal who is hanged/beheaded/whatever by the state is helpless at the time. So every criminal execution is an evil act?
Not so sure I buy that one, sorry.
Not to mention, that some societies would consider certain character types "the law" and them committing the act of execution is well within lawfulness and goodness.
So yeah, dependent on the circumstances, it would be well within the law, goodness, and the Paladin code, for a Paladin of Iomedae to execute a helpless irredeemably evil foe who has shown a penchant for committing heinous acts of evil and debauchery.
Lets say its a paladin of Saranrae and the outsider in question has a low int? Like... A hellhound of some sort. Or how about if the paladin has low int or/and wis? So many variables and things to think about. Poor puppy moment.
I feel like putting more stress on a paladin in a game where they already have a mix of GMs and plenty of risk of falling is probably more mean bad teasing than fun good teasing.
You should respond with something along the lines of "This may have an impact on your alignment" If they persist in the action make a note of it on their Chronicle sheet. A few evil acts and their character incurs an alignment shift.To be fair shouldn't we be marking this for all directions of alignment (good, evil, lawful, chaotic). Then we have a fair and balanced view. For example a neutral character may be pushed towards neutral good or lawful neutral by his actions.
I assume a neutral PC is being pushed towards good just by helping to eliminate an evil cult in ongoing society missions, and may have to do some balancing evil actions to maintain his neutral status. Just recording his evil actions would present an unbalanced view.
Thats not how neutral works.
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I'm not evil. It's just that there is no party like a Donner party.
Laughter is good, laughter is fun, and heck, laughter is putting all the smiles back into manslaughter.
Who can judge evil, morality, or justifications?
People are too uptight over generalizations of playing at being an assassin, or what have you.
Dont bea dick works fine, and sometimes people need to be reminded of it is all. But its a street what goes two ways.
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That's not how [enter alignment here] works.
Any comment like this is almost always a personal perspective and not necessarily that of anyone else. It is the core why alignment discussion are largely a futile endevour. Good luck finding an alignment perspective that everyone, or even most, agree with.
Thats not how neutral works.You should respond with something along the lines of "This may have an impact on your alignment" If they persist in the action make a note of it on their Chronicle sheet. A few evil acts and their character incurs an alignment shift.To be fair shouldn't we be marking this for all directions of alignment (good, evil, lawful, chaotic). Then we have a fair and balanced view. For example a neutral character may be pushed towards neutral good or lawful neutral by his actions.
I assume a neutral PC is being pushed towards good just by helping to eliminate an evil cult in ongoing society missions, and may have to do some balancing evil actions to maintain his neutral status. Just recording his evil actions would present an unbalanced view.
Quite correct. The way to remain neutral is maintaining reluctance to kill innocents and wanton cruelty (ie avoid Evil) and to quite sacrificing for the benefit of those you whom you are not invested in (ie avoid good)
Stop helping people to your determent. Start refusing help to those from whom you have nothing to gain from. Thats how you avoid being Good aligned.
And I would say that if he is already incapacitated (-1 hp) then killing him would be an evil act.
He is helpless, cannot hurt you or others, and you can freely do with him what you will (tie him up, turn him over for trial, whatever). In some exigent cases I can still see killing him, but killing helpless people is normally a pretty black thing to do.
That puts Golarion's criminal justice system(s) in a tough spot, as every single properly-tried-and-convicted criminal who is hanged/beheaded/whatever by the state is helpless at the time. So every criminal execution is an evil act?
Not so sure I buy that one, sorry.
What you describe is an entirely different situation than the one I responded to.
Batman is not empowered to enforce laws, nor is he empowered to judge the guilt of criminals. He is neither a police man nor a judge nor an executioner.
The majority of paladin PCs are similar. While espousing a lawful good alignment, and perhaps occupying a position in their religion; they most likely do not hold any position of authority to enforce law, judge guilt, or carry out sentence. To act in such a capacity would be to usurp power that is not theirs, and a lack of deference to the proper authorities.
The state (possibly the church as well, depending on the social structure of a given state), however, is empowered to judge and sentence criminals, possibly including capital punishment.
If you were walking down the street, and saw a man attempting to murder someone else and tried to stop it, you would be well protected under the law if that man died in the process. However, if you had incapacitated him, then killed him out of spite, you are just as much a murderer as he was attempting to be.
Shouldn't what you do with an incapacitated prisoner be a moral question for a good character? Especially if you can't easily turn him over to the guards.
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Shouldn't what you do with an incapacitated prisoner be a moral question for a good character? Especially if you can't easily turn him over to the guards.
Okay, a few things:
First, you missed the point of my post. You said that a person being helpless makes killing them evil. I was pointing out that since pretty much every form of criminal execution (hanging, beheading, whatever) involves the victim being helpless, then by your standard the death penalty is always evil no matter what. And if that's your stance, fine. But if not, then you can't also say that killing a downed foe goes from non-evil to evil just because he's helpless. Either helplessness makes it evil and therefore every legal execution is evil, or helplessness doesn't make it evil and your claim to the contrary is therefore false. It's one of the two.
And that's all I was saying, so I'm not sure where your multi-paragraph post about "what do we do with the prisoners?" is coming from because it really has nothing to do with what I said.
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But since you brought it up, I'll go ahead and say this: the difference between killing someone yourself versus having the state kill them is a law/chaos issue, not a good/evil issue. The good/evil issue is whether death was the appropriate response to what he did; the issue of who has the authority to make the decision and carry it out is purely a law/chaos issue.
You now what I find odd about "evil acts" is, IRL, people mainly ignore them, or disassociate.
When someone does something you dont agree with/dont like or would be condemnable , everyone looks the other way, notices the fly floating in their soup or tries to act like they are somewhere else and become somewhere else as soon as they can.
No one gets involved or does anything about it, so no "procedure" for dealing with it is required.
In RPGs, where are all preoccupied with evil acts... standing up abruptly from our chairs, flinging dice and snacks everywhere to point the "that's an evil act" finger!!!
Makes me want to assemble a team of RP nerds, erm I mean friends and wander walmart in trench coats waiting for someone to do something we don't approve of so we can all, simultaneously point our finger at them and shout "that's an evil act!"
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The majority of paladin PCs are similar. While espousing a lawful good alignment, and perhaps occupying a position in their religion; they most likely do not hold any position of authority to enforce law, judge guilt, or carry out sentence. To act in such a capacity would be to usurp power that is not theirs, and a lack of deference to the proper authorities.
And I could counter that in a world where deities often take an active role in the lives of "men," a paladin could believe s/he is divinely granted the power to dole out justice which exceeds/outweighs the authority of local/regional governments. You just cannot make meaningful analogies between current 21st century legal systems and those of dark age/medieval/renaissance periods.
The right to "mete out justice" went along with the title of 'knight' IRL.
There are few lawful/good societies in the game that would deny/contend with a paladin doing just that, IMO, especially if a branch of his church were present in the land.