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Being a bit over...not a big deal (under 150% of WBL). Being a bit under (over 75% of WBL)...once again not a big deal. Outside those ranges...yeah we have a big deal...at least in my experience. The trouble is that with 3 feats (arms and armor, wondrous, rings) you can pretty much double your WBL unless DM adjusted for crafting...which is definitely in the big deal category.The issue I have with examples like this is that this assumes the crafter is personally making every single piece of gear he wears. Unless your party has years worth of down time between levels this simply isn't possible and creates a scenario pretty laughable, really.
YEARS? How do you get years? Crafting 356,000 GP worth of item is just ONE year. So your characters have get several 356k worth of gold between every level? REALLY?
The issue comes to play at higher levels. If you improve an item you still need to spend the entire total GP cost to determine time to craft even though you can subtract the existing items cost from materials required for the upgrade. To take a single item from +1, to +2, +3, etc has a cumulative effect that could easily require multiple years worth of time when it's all said and done.
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And? It's still not YEARS of down time between level 10 and 11 now if it. And by the time you need 100s of days to craft, hey guess what, you have access to planes with different time flows you can use if needed. Going from a +4 to +5 weapon is 18k gold so 18 days of crafting. Your telling me the way to balance crafting is to say that the group can't take 2 and a half week off from adventuring? Really? And yes by level 20, you would have spent a TOTAL of years crafting. So what? Years over the span of 20 level isn't a big deal in most campaigns or APs. If the only way to balance crafting is to say that your on a time table and can have no downtime and that is the ONLY campaigns you can have crafting in...then yes the crafting system DOESN'T FRAKING WORK.
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Being a bit over...not a big deal (under 150% of WBL). Being a bit under (over 75% of WBL)...once again not a big deal. Outside those ranges...yeah we have a big deal...at least in my experience. The trouble is that with 3 feats (arms and armor, wondrous, rings) you can pretty much double your WBL unless DM adjusted for crafting...which is definitely in the big deal category.Contrary to what many people think, I don't believe that being over WBL is such a huge power boost. My studies indicate that this is rarely the case. Instead the opposite is more true. Having an over abundance of wealth rarely overpowers, but having significantly less can quickly underpower.
So, what do you all think? Agree with Paizo's FAQ, or agree with my friend?
Also, would this be enough for you to just not play with him?
Well even core Pathfinder is calibrated for effectively doubling your wealth gain ("high fantasy") and you're not expected to make any real CR changes for this style of play (though enemies do get proportionally more equipment as well which leads to more treasure).
I've had PCs be drastically and I do mean drastically over their WBL ranges and it's not nearly as impactful as being drastically under. It's very easy for a mostly naked (relatively) PC to end up dead when fighting creatures that are dangerous for their levels.
I have crafting PCs all the time. Heck, my brother doesn't really even want magic items most of the time unless he crafted them himself (he's kind of sentimental like that). One of my largest and longer campaigns was with a party that consisted of 4 spellcasters and 2 non-casters and virtually every caster in question took item creation feats and often collaborated with each other to make big items (such as an airship).
I can't remember the last time I needed to make adjustments for WBL beyond giving players more treasure. I tend to use WBL as kind of a safety net as a GM so I know when I need to throw the party a bone if they've been lagging behind too much. My campaigns also tend to have a lot of downtime since they're sandboxy. If you don't want to adventure then you don't have to adventure. You can quite literally say "We're going to take a week off to practice our skills and our trades" and lapse gametime as needed.
I just really feel like people get hung up on this WBL thing like it was some sort of sacred holy grail when it's little more than a helpful ruler for eyeballing stuff. :\
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Sure it has been said, but couldn't the GM just say Crafting feats don't exist in their game. Plenty of other feats to choose from. Crafting, at least for me, never really stuck me as an in-game thing rather an NPC type thing. Given the non-stop roller coaster ride that is levelling in the d20 system there seems, as pointed out by Cold Napalm, little down time to make anything significant at any rate.
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drastically over their WBL ranges and it's not nearly as impactful as being drastically under. It's very easy for a mostly naked (relatively) PC to end up dead when fighting creatures that are dangerous for their levels.
I have crafting PCs all the time. Heck, my brother doesn't really even want magic items most of the time unless he crafted them himself (he's kind of sentimental like that). One of my largest and longer campaigns was with a party that consisted of 4 spellcasters and 2 non-casters and virtually every caster in question took item creation feats and often collaborated with each other to make big items (such as an airship).
That depends on what they spent their money on. If they are over WBL because they made a airship, that is not likely to matter much in the encounter now will it. If they took a bunch of interesting magical items...once again, not a big deal. If that money however is spent in an optimized manner, I have found issues.
That depends on what they spent their money on. If they are over WBL because they made a airship, that is not likely to matter much in the encounter now will it. If they took a bunch of interesting magical items...once again, not a big deal. If that money however is spent in an optimized manner, I have found issues.drastically over their WBL ranges and it's not nearly as impactful as being drastically under. It's very easy for a mostly naked (relatively) PC to end up dead when fighting creatures that are dangerous for their levels.
I have crafting PCs all the time. Heck, my brother doesn't really even want magic items most of the time unless he crafted them himself (he's kind of sentimental like that). One of my largest and longer campaigns was with a party that consisted of 4 spellcasters and 2 non-casters and virtually every caster in question took item creation feats and often collaborated with each other to make big items (such as an airship).
They made the airship after basically having infinite money and some time to kill (because high levels are funny like that). In general stuff was spent on things like rings, amulets, cloaks, and adding features to existing items.
What would you consider "optimized" use of their WBL?
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What would you consider "optimized" use of their WBL?
Vast majority spent on the big 6 (weapon, armor, stat item, deflection, nat armor, resistance to save)...along with the splash of the cheaper REALLY good items...like say the jingasa of the fortunate soldier (+1 luck bonus to AV and negate a crit/SA once per day...yes please) and the various advanced ioun stones, etc etc.
Anyways, I personally have had multiple games where doubling WBL was a huge problem. You might have been okay with how you run things...but mine certainly were not. It should be noted that most recent APs assume crafting it seems. If the party does not craft, I have found that their WBL starts to seriously lag behind and they dip into the below 75% range by book 3 unless the treasure listed somehow REALLY matches up with what the party needs (rarely does that happen...and even then, older treasures can't be converted efficiently into magical items so you still end up behind...just by book 4 maybe instead of 3). So this whole paizo staff is okay with the crafter and only the crafter can double WBL and it isn't an issue is a bit of a lark. The APs assume crafting and have the treasure set to have said crafters craft for the whole party.
I hate that magical crafting is so quick, yet making mundane items is a long process. Who's want to forge a mithril or Adamantine item? You'd be there for months!
Talk about disincentivising the whole 'forged my own sword' themes.
Adamantine Full Plate takes years if you just meet the DC by taking 10.
The problem with crafting is that you usually don't have time to craft everything for everyone...The GM usually has a plot line and while tyhey may not rush you through so you have no time for crafting the also don't want to have an unlimited time for crafting. When this happens the crafter will build stuff for themselves first and over time they will have much betetr and/or more gear than their comrades who dont craft and have t pay 100%.
We did this in our last campaign and my Cleric with Craft A&A, and wondrous had much better gear than everyone else. Not that he couldn't craft for everyone else he just didn't always have the time.
For a campaigned to be balanced between ALL PC's then you have to have a way to balance their power and this includes their gear...it's no fun to be outshined in every encounter by another PC because they are much more powerful because they have better gear. The game is meant to be fun and if everyone contributes and shares the risk fairly equally then everyone enjoys the game.
And Thats why GM's have to either disallow crafting or enfore some kind of WBL to keep things fairly equal.
Vast majority spent on the big 6 (weapon, armor, stat item, deflection, nat armor, resistance to save)...along with the splash of the cheaper REALLY good items...like say the jingasa of the fortunate soldier (+1 luck bonus to AV and negate a crit/SA once per day...yes please) and the various advanced ioun stones, etc etc.
What would you consider "optimized" use of their WBL?
I'll be honest. I'm not exactly sure how spending money on the big six is particularly gamebreaking do the the way costs scale (quadratically). I mean, at 10th level your WBL is 62,000 gp. Doubly that puts you at 124,000 gp, which assumes you are making literally everything you own yourself.
Now the big six alone is:
weapon (Mod^*2000 gp)
armor (Mod^*1000 gp)
deflection (Mod^*2000 gp)
natural (Mod^*2000 gp)
resistance (Mod^*1000 gp)
shield (Mod^*1000 gp)
Assuming that most of the PCs in the party are at normal WBL, it's reasonable to their gear loadout looks something like a pair of +2 weapons (about 25% WBL), a +3 armor and +3 shield (about 25% WBL), a +3 cloak of resistance, +1 amulet of natural armor, +1 ring of protection (less than 25% WBL), leaving another 15% for disposable items, and 10% for currency and such (going by the suggestions in the gamemastering on WBL).
Now let's spend double your WBL to beef you up. Our loadout becomes a +3 weapon and a +2 weapon (about 25% WBL), a +4 armor and +3 shield (about 25% WBL), a +2 ring and amulet and a +4 cloak (about 25% WBL), with 15% for consumables and 10% for currency.
Comparing the two with Big Six vs Big Six, the item crafter who crafted literally everything they own (Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Forge Ring, Craft Wondrous Item) nets a +1 to one weapon (but not both), +3 AC (armor, deflection, natural), and +1 to saves. This is not something that strikes me as particularly threatening or disruptive. Especially at the levels that you'd need to do this with.
So while I believe you when you say you had a problem, I'm having a hard time seeing why. Now if you were using magic items that are simply too good perhaps. I'm not sure. I'd like to have seen the game you were running and then I'd be able to comment further, but that's not very probable for obvious reasons. :P
So again, please understand I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea.
Adamantine Full Plate takes years if you just meet the DC by taking 10.
Exactly.
And in the same period, the Wizzy can pump out half a million GP worth of magic itms.
In essence, it makes mundane crafting a total waste of time, which is a shame from a storytelling perspective.
Adamantine Full Plate takes years if you just meet the DC by taking 10.Exactly.
And in the same period, the Wizzy can pump out half a million GP worth of magic itms.
In essence, it makes mundane crafting a total waste of time, which is a shame from a storytelling perspective.
I'd recommend making special materials not count towards the creation time of an item. And possibly speeding the Craft times up by x10 (measure craft result in GP instead of SP).
I'd agree with your recommendation too!
Linking the manufacturing time with the item cost was always a 'curious idea'.
Again, I think it's just more crafting boogiemen. I think the mere *possibility* someone could sink all their GP into a tome of whatever +2 is just too "eegads" of a notion in spite of the fact that said character essentially be destitute in all other respects.
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This may be a stupid question. But is it ever stated that Crafted items count as their crafted value rather than the full value for WBL?
A Crafted item isn't actually worth half the usefulness of an found version. The WBL table represents the relative 'power' a character should wield not gp value as such.
For example if I have a 10 level PC it can be assumed I have 62,000 gp in items not actually carrying around 62,000 gp. In the first instance I'm all set for a CR 10 encounter in the later, unless I can drop all 62,000 coins on the encounters head, I'm in trouble.
S.
It is in the FAQs. A crafted item is counted by it's creation cost for the crafter. For any other character it's counted by it's price.
This is about as strong as an indicator you'll get short of a "this is how it is" statement from Paizo that WBL for starting characters can, in fact, represent actual gp rather than just a summation of value.
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It is in the FAQs. A crafted item is counted by it's creation cost for the crafter. For any other character it's counted by it's price.
This is about as strong as an indicator you'll get short of a "this is how it is" statement from Paizo that WBL for starting characters can, in fact, represent actual gp rather than just a summation of value.
Well that flies in the face of common sense. I now see the issue, I would have never considered anything but the full cost with regards to the WBL no matter what.
Interesting, but something I would never allow at my table.
S.
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Not really. The equipment chapter is clear in that each character begin play, not life, with a certain number of gold coins. Then, you are shown a table of starting GP values for level 1 CRB classes. Then, you are referred to the WBL table for characters above first level. You still get a certain number of GP the whole time. Your source of where to derive that number just changes depending if you're first level or not.
Not really. The equipment chapter is clear in that each character begin play, not life, with a certain number of gold coins. Then, you are shown a table of starting GP values for level 1 CRB classes. Then, you are referred to the WBL table for characters above first level. You still get a certain number of GP the whole time. Your source of where to derive that number just changes depending if you're first level or not.
Right, and I think maybe this is where people are missing my point of my GM friend... We start at 1st level.. He then uses and enforces the WBL chart for the entire game. At no time shall he allow us to exceed the WBL of the chart.
WBL is a guideline for character creation...
Maybe that's been the whole confusion here... has it? I am ok with and in fact do on the rare times I allow higher than level 1 characters, enforce the WBL at character creation... after that though, saying "Sorcerer, since you crafted that Robe of Charisma +6 last week, you are forbidden from getting any treasure rewards from the next 10 encounters until everyone else's WBL catches up to yours." THIS is the problem.
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Right, and I think maybe this is where people are missing my point of my GM friend... We start at 1st level.. He then uses and enforces the WBL chart for the entire game. At no time shall he allow us to exceed the WBL of the chart.
WBL is a guideline for character creation...
Maybe that's been the whole confusion here... has it? I am ok with and in fact do on the rare times I allow higher than level 1 characters, enforce the WBL at character creation... after that though, saying "Sorcerer, since you crafted that Robe of Charisma +6 last week, you are forbidden from getting any treasure rewards from the next 10 encounters until everyone else's WBL catches up to yours." THIS is the problem.
So he is seeing the WBL table as like the speed of light rather than just a speed sign? That is quite strange I agree. I think I would get quite miffed with this GM - not to mention them saying who gets what things. Seriously? If the party wanted the Rogue to have the Staff of the Magi big fat hairy deal. Your GM is crossing a line that would drive me nuts.
S.
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I'll be honest. I'm not exactly sure how spending money on the big six is particularly gamebreaking do the the way costs scale (quadratically). I mean, at 10th level your WBL is 62,000 gp. Doubly that puts you at 124,000 gp, which assumes you are making literally everything you own yourself.
Now the big six alone is:
weapon (Mod^*2000 gp)
armor (Mod^*1000 gp)
deflection (Mod^*2000 gp)
natural (Mod^*2000 gp)
resistance (Mod^*1000 gp)
shield (Mod^*1000 gp)Assuming that most of the PCs in the party are at normal WBL, it's reasonable to their gear loadout looks something like a pair of +2 weapons (about 25% WBL), a +3 armor and +3 shield (about 25% WBL), a +3 cloak of resistance, +1 amulet of natural armor, +1 ring of protection (less than 25% WBL), leaving another 15% for disposable items, and 10% for currency and such (going by the suggestions in the gamemastering on WBL).
Now let's spend double your WBL to beef you up. Our loadout becomes a +3 weapon and a +2 weapon (about 25% WBL), a +4 armor and +3 shield (about 25% WBL), a +2 ring and amulet and a +4 cloak (about 25% WBL), with 15% for consumables and 10% for currency.
Comparing the two with Big Six vs Big Six, the item crafter who crafted literally everything they own (Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Forge Ring, Craft Wondrous Item) nets a +1 to one weapon (but not both), +3 AC (armor, deflection, natural), and +1 to saves. This is not something that strikes me as particularly threatening or disruptive. Especially at the levels that you'd need to do this with.
So while I believe you when you say you had a problem, I'm having a hard time seeing why. Now if you were using magic items that are simply too good perhaps. I'm not sure. I'd like to have seen the game you were running and then I'd be able to comment further, but that's not very probable for obvious reasons. :P
So again, please understand I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea.
You forgot the stat items. And that 25% thing is only a guideline for starting out...and even then only a guideline. The only hard rule is nothing above 50% and once again that is only at starting out. Getting a +6 to casting stat item when others are affording +4 IS a big deal. Having a +6 to str (or dex if you built as such) and +6 con item when then other fighter types have just a +6 str item makes a pretty big deal as well.
You forgot the stat items. And that 25% thing is only a guideline for starting out...and even then only a guideline. The only hard rule is nothing above 50% and once again that is only at starting out. Getting a +6 to casting stat item when others are affording +4 IS a big deal. Having a +6 to str (or dex if you built as such) and +6 con item when then other fighter types have just a +6 str item makes a pretty big deal as well.
I'm aware that the 25% bit is a guideline for starting out but it's also a pretty decent estimation for the big six as well. See, due to the increasing of cost in said items it's difficult to really soar above and beyond. And as much as I swear casters are strong, I don't see a +1 bump to your save DCs as being "OMGWTF" powerful.
Perhaps we have a different margin for for problems here. I look at all of that and see that here's some person who is apparently producing every last piece of equipment he or she owns via item creation feats (literally impossible to do organically AFAIK since you can't take them until 3rd, 5th, and 7th level), spending 3 feats, and have the necessary time and ability to make them. The time and ability aren't a major factor in some campaigns (especially my campaigns where the story is more about the heroes and less about Meteor crashing into the planet, so you got time to breed your Chocobos if you want).
Honestly from hearing about it, especially concerning a +6 Con / +6 Strength items versus +6 Strength item, it sounds a lot like the party isn't very good at optimizing their equipment. You get way more mileage out of spreading the love over your equipment. A +4 Str and +4 Con is better than +6 Strength and cheaper. Whereas upgrading to a +6/+6 to each isn't a major increase.
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Not really. The equipment chapter is clear in that each character begin play, not life, with a certain number of gold coins. Then, you are shown a table of starting GP values for level 1 CRB classes. Then, you are referred to the WBL table for characters above first level. You still get a certain number of GP the whole time. Your source of where to derive that number just changes depending if you're first level or not.Right, and I think maybe this is where people are missing my point of my GM friend... We start at 1st level.. He then uses and enforces the WBL chart for the entire game. At no time shall he allow us to exceed the WBL of the chart.
WBL is a guideline for character creation...
Maybe that's been the whole confusion here... has it? I am ok with and in fact do on the rare times I allow higher than level 1 characters, enforce the WBL at character creation... after that though, saying "Sorcerer, since you crafted that Robe of Charisma +6 last week, you are forbidden from getting any treasure rewards from the next 10 encounters until everyone else's WBL catches up to yours." THIS is the problem.
This is why WBL should be guideline, not a fixed rule. It must by necessity be a fixed rule for PFS play because of the nature of PFS play .. you don't want some Monty Haul idiot to plop down at your table with x4WBL and dominate the encounter. But outside PFS, there is no reason, zero, none, nada, to adhere so strictly to WBL that the GM micromanages it to the n-th degree. WBL in a private game should be nothing more than a loot-drop guideline, and GMs who do micromanage it to the point where they are forcing certain in-play decisions regarding loot divy are bastards. I wouldn't play with one. I'd quit that game.
Now, if a GM wanted simply to nerf crafting in his game, and told me ahead of time, I'd be fine with that. I'd just not play a crafter.
x4 WBL? You've taken then "crafting is x2 WBL" trope and doubled it. Congratulations!
Yeah x2 WBL is an idealized maximum itself.
Realistically your crafter will sit between 1x WBL and 2x WBL depending on a LOT of variables.
I'm not very familiar with D&D adventures except with what I've been told and that's basically limited to the Temple of Elemental Evil with comments equating to "you split the party, you die." I can't see quite the same amount of viciousness in a Paizo AP. It's certainly possible. A lone scout type person goes into the room with the BBEG and splat he goes, perfect. But, generally speaking in the vast majority of cases you can disengage enemies or keep safe while you retreat. If you're a sorc/wiz your friends are just a dimension door away.
That's how real life tactical teams end up behaving. They RARELY split up, because they can't haul each other's butts out of a sling if that happens.
Personally, I am just fine with this attitude. Yes, occasionally it makes sense to send a scout up ahead, but for the most part this is a good idea. No scout should be engaging in combat without the rest of the group, period. They are supposed to take a peek up ahead, and then return quietly without the enemy's knowledge. If that scout is dumb enough to throw down without the group, he/she deserves death.
If a party is dumb enough to take a pit stop for an evening in the middle of a dungeon or hideout, and the enemy has remaining force, it is ENTIRELY logical for that enemy to gather and wipe out the party. That too is a gripe of mine, that many DM's don't have responsive enemies as if this was a stupid video game.
What would you consider "optimized" use of their WBL?Vast majority spent on the big 6 (weapon, armor, stat item, deflection, nat armor, resistance to save)...along with the splash of the cheaper REALLY good items...like say the jingasa of the fortunate soldier (+1 luck bonus to AV and negate a crit/SA once per day...yes please) and the various advanced ioun stones, etc etc.
Actually, I find that the most potent magical items are those that grant entirely new capabilities, like flight on demand, or being able to store massive amounts of loot easily. They affect gameplay much more profoundly than merely numerical items as you suggest.
Personally, I am just fine with this attitude. Yes, occasionally it makes sense to send a scout up ahead, but for the most part this is a good idea. No scout should be engaging in combat without the rest of the group, period. They are supposed to take a peek up ahead, and then return quietly without the enemy's knowledge. If that scout is dumb enough to throw down without the group, he/she deserves death.
If a scout peeks into a door and one of the residents notice this the scout is generally screwed depending how many people are in there. They don't have to kick open the door and try to teeth-kill everyone in there for things to go badly.
Actually, I find that the most potent magical items are those that grant entirely new capabilities, like flight on demand, or being able to store massive amounts of loot easily. They affect gameplay much more profoundly than merely numerical items as you suggest.
What would you consider "optimized" use of their WBL?Vast majority spent on the big 6 (weapon, armor, stat item, deflection, nat armor, resistance to save)...along with the splash of the cheaper REALLY good items...like say the jingasa of the fortunate soldier (+1 luck bonus to AV and negate a crit/SA once per day...yes please) and the various advanced ioun stones, etc etc.
Um...what? Cold Napalm was talking about the big six. As for flight and such, perhaps you mean customized magical items? It's not really practical to produce at-will fly and similar effects while also keeping up he big-six (not that at-will fly is anything special by mid to high levels anyway and is far to expensive to be available even via crafting at lower levels given that the cost would be in the ballpark of 27,000 - 45,000 gp).
I'm not sure what your point is about storing loot. Exactly how is that problematic? I've dropped dragon hordes in copper pieces on my players and even I don't see that as a problem. >.>
Could you elaborate Mr. Piccolo?
A scout shouldn't be farther ahead than the group is able to see. That way when something goes wrong the whole group can respond.
A scout shouldn't be farther ahead than the group is able to see. That way when something goes wrong the whole group can respond.
So true. Even in the 3.x DMG one of the example play excerpts basically involves Lidda the Rogue getting gang-smacked by a ghoul or two while the rest of the party is like 60 ft. down on a rope or somesuch.
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x4 WBL? You've taken then "crafting is x2 WBL" trope and doubled it. Congratulations!
Actually, in PFS, because of the play up rules, you can end up with like x6 WBL in some levels. Course that means your are playing a 1-2 character in 6-7 games and somehow not ending up paste...but if you have a group of well optimized characters and strictly play season 1-3 which are written for 4 players with a table of 7, it is possible (slim yet still possible) to have a group bring up a couple of low level characters with such WBL disparity.
x4 WBL? You've taken then "crafting is x2 WBL" trope and doubled it. Congratulations!
Sorry if I was unclear. My comments weren't in regard to crafting in particular, but to the unfortunate necessity of sticking strictly to WBL for PFS play. And also to the innate silliness of adhering mindlessly to it for free play.
And here I thought PFS was a bastion of fairness. But people still want to complain about crafting? That made my day.
Um...what? Cold Napalm was talking about the big six. As for flight and such, perhaps you mean customized magical items? It's not really practical to produce at-will fly and similar effects while also keeping up he big-six (not that at-will fly is anything special by mid to high levels anyway and is far to expensive to be available even via crafting at lower levels given that the cost would be in the ballpark of 27,000 - 45,000 gp).
I'm not sure what your point is about storing loot. Exactly how is that problematic? I've dropped dragon hordes in copper pieces on my players and even I don't see that as a problem. >.>
Could you elaborate Mr. Piccolo?
Well, often its the little things that tend to make a big difference. For example, having a ring of sustenance means you don't have to worry about food, drink, or even taking most of the night watch every night/having more time to craft even while on adventure.
A Portable Hole suddenly means you have all the space you could ever need for hauling off loot, like small libraries, art objects, body armor from fallen opponents, etc.
Now, compare that to having bonuses on your attributes. They don't give you new capabilities, they just make you better at what you already have. That's wonderful and all, but they don't literally change the game every session. Suddenly being able to fly, even for short periods, means you don't have to worry about pit traps, falling off ledges, etc. You can even set yourself up to a great tactical position using that flight.
Recently, my party invested in a pair of horses, a wagon, and hired out a NPC cook/driver. Now they don't have to worry about food, water, or hauling off treasure (they are 3rd level, and haven't even bought their own horses to speed up overland travel yet, not enough moolah) after the adventure is done.
Also, would this be enough for you to just not play with him?
I would not play with the GM described.
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And here I thought PFS was a bastion of fairness. But people still want to complain about crafting? That made my day.
Well...you have to LIVE to get the rewards :P . Like I said, the chances are SLIM...even when the rest of the people in your group knows what they are doing. It's pretty much zilch if you don't have group support in something like this.
Um...what? Cold Napalm was talking about the big six. As for flight and such, perhaps you mean customized magical items? It's not really practical to produce at-will fly and similar effects while also keeping up he big-six (not that at-will fly is anything special by mid to high levels anyway and is far to expensive to be available even via crafting at lower levels given that the cost would be in the ballpark of 27,000 - 45,000 gp).
I'm not sure what your point is about storing loot. Exactly how is that problematic? I've dropped dragon hordes in copper pieces on my players and even I don't see that as a problem. >.>
Could you elaborate Mr. Piccolo?
Well, often its the little things that tend to make a big difference. For example, having a ring of sustenance means you don't have to worry about food, drink, or even taking most of the night watch every night/having more time to craft even while on adventure.
A Portable Hole suddenly means you have all the space you could ever need for hauling off loot, like small libraries, art objects, body armor from fallen opponents, etc.
Now, compare that to having bonuses on your attributes. They don't give you new capabilities, they just make you better at what you already have. That's wonderful and all, but they don't literally change the game every session. Suddenly being able to fly, even for short periods, means you don't have to worry about pit traps, falling off ledges, etc. You can even set yourself up to a great tactical position using that flight.
Recently, my party invested in a pair of horses, a wagon, and hired out a NPC cook/driver. Now they don't have to worry about food, water, or hauling off treasure (they are 3rd level, and haven't even bought their own horses to speed up overland travel yet, not enough moolah) after the adventure is done.
Rings of Sustenance, Portable Holes, Flying Carpets? That's called playing D&D/Pathfinder Mr. Piccolo.
Your point, Ashiel?
Your point, Ashiel?
My point is that higher level characters aren't supposed to worry about trail rations much if at all, and hauling treasure around is the entire point of having things like portable holes. What is ironic is that Cold Napalm explains that the problem is they have better Big Six items than their peers, but I explained why that seems weird unless the other players are investing exceedingly poorly in their equipment (because if players are rushing +6 items over a pair of +4 items then they are the source of their problems not the artisan).
Meanwhile, you're making the complaint that they are getting fun and quirky items in addition to the usual big six. So the two of you are commentating on a problem that is completely different. Yet more ironic still, the problem that you complain about flies in the face of the #1 complaint about magic items and WBL seen throughout 3.x and that is that you cannot have cool quirky magic items that do things besides give +X buffs without being underpowered (such as if making the choice between a carpet of flying or a cloak of resistance the cloak is going to win out most every time because not having it is asking to die much easier).
Your complaint sounds less like a complaint against item creation and more like a complaint about how the game changes as it progresses. It just sounds like item creation is getting the blame. Instead of learning to adapt as a GM and realize the game changes as it progresses and magic items are acquired, your answer is to lament that the game changes at all from your comfort zone. This refusal to acknowledge what is true within the game and to learn from it only leaves people with both a feeling of bewilderment when you encounter something new prepares them to make knee jerk reactions and unfair judgments readily.
In both cases neither sound like problems with item creation but instead problems (real or otherwise) with other areas of the game that you're associating with item creation.
I don't know how magic items were presented in D&D but the precedent for nifty items is abundant. It just requires some trust between player and GM. Take, for example, the Sword of the Planes (one of my favorite weapons). Its construction requirements list planeshift but the item doesn't let you planeshift. Instead, the enhancement is different based on either the plane you're on or the creature you're targeting. Nifty! But, I know of no GM that would allow a 22k item to work as a +4 enhancement weapon against outsiders even if it's only against *just* outsiders but lesser against others were it not already in the book. The perception of balance is often very different from how Paizo views it.
