| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I think that yes, if you micromanage wealth by level like an IRS tax auditor then the crafting system is broken. If you are a GM that looks at your players abilities and magic items then designs challenging options for them, it works just fine. Can it be improved? Yes. But then the game can always been improved. Because humans made the game. Therefore, it will never be perfect.
By the way yes this is the way to deal with Crafting. I threw out the WBL chart back in 3.0. And challenge the party. All I do is adjust the monster up....IE increase HPs, To Hit, Dam, Saves, etc. So I am throwing correct CR monsters at them...and they gain levels at a normal pace.
Never had a crafter break my game.
One thing to note about "Offical Ruleings" about crafting is the fact that society play does not allow for crafting. This may be looked at as sort of its own homebrew in a sense, but when the PFS bans something as a GM I look over it again since there is obviously a reason.Would I play with this GM? Well its hard to tell just off this thread. If the rest of the game is good, and he has been upfront with you about all this, then I would have to say he is not that bad of a GM.
From what I understand the reason crafting is banned in PFS has more to do with downtime and the balance of a nationwide game with thousands of players and less to do with the game designers being all "Shhh... our system is broken all to hell... lets ban it in PFS!"
|
One thing to note about "Offical Ruleings" about crafting is the fact that society play does not allow for crafting. This may be looked at as sort of its own homebrew in a sense, but when the PFS bans something as a GM I look over it again since there is obviously a reason.Would I play with this GM? Well its hard to tell just off this thread. If the rest of the game is good, and he has been upfront with you about all this, then I would have to say he is not that bad of a GM.
From what I understand the reason crafting is banned in PFS has more to do with downtime and the balance of a nationwide game with thousands of players and less to do with the game designers being all "Shhh... our system is broken all to hell... lets ban it in PFS!"
Downtime? Its not like you would craft during the session. Yes its the "Balance", and that is what we are discussing.
Downtime? Its not like you would craft during the session. Yes its the "Balance", and that is what we are discussing.
One thing to note about "Offical Ruleings" about crafting is the fact that society play does not allow for crafting. This may be looked at as sort of its own homebrew in a sense, but when the PFS bans something as a GM I look over it again since there is obviously a reason.Would I play with this GM? Well its hard to tell just off this thread. If the rest of the game is good, and he has been upfront with you about all this, then I would have to say he is not that bad of a GM.
From what I understand the reason crafting is banned in PFS has more to do with downtime and the balance of a nationwide game with thousands of players and less to do with the game designers being all "Shhh... our system is broken all to hell... lets ban it in PFS!"
Yes, but in a single home game if the wizard crafts for his friends, that's cool. But in a nationwide game with many GMs, that's where ANY player crafting system is going to be a problem. Because what if I don't have any wizard friends? Then I'm going to have to pay full price for magic items when the guy next to me got all his for half price from the wizard in the last game he was in.
Plus, it also behooves a nationwide game like PFS to have more control over what players obtain, and crafting takes away that entirely. It's not so much about balance, as CONTROL that is necessary for a nationwide game.
Besides, if you are using PFS as the "standard" for balance, then there is a TON of rules changes they've made for PFS that are not official ruleset, like the whole fact that in PFS Racial Heritage does not allow humans to take other racial class archetypes... in the core rules it does. There was a big debate over that, and a lot of people kept getting confused since the actual game rules and the PFS "houserule" differ.
@Magnuskn:
This doesn't look like it doesn't work for characters other than the crafter
Could you quote the relevant part that says items crafted by the crafter for other party members are counted at market value for WBL?
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
Italized bold parts have special emphasis. There is a direct comparison between crafting characters WBL and non-crafting characters. The direct inference is that non-crafters should not benefit from the crafting characters WBL discount. There is no explanation given as to why (lore) and how (rules).
IIRC, SKR did substantiate that point at one time, when the issue came up in the flurry of magic item crafting related threads from a few months ago, although it really would take a lot of time to sift through all that to find it again.
|
|
Downtime? Its not like you would craft during the session. Yes its the "Balance", and that is what we are discussing.
One thing to note about "Offical Ruleings" about crafting is the fact that society play does not allow for crafting. This may be looked at as sort of its own homebrew in a sense, but when the PFS bans something as a GM I look over it again since there is obviously a reason.Would I play with this GM? Well its hard to tell just off this thread. If the rest of the game is good, and he has been upfront with you about all this, then I would have to say he is not that bad of a GM.
From what I understand the reason crafting is banned in PFS has more to do with downtime and the balance of a nationwide game with thousands of players and less to do with the game designers being all "Shhh... our system is broken all to hell... lets ban it in PFS!"
Yes, but in a single home game if the wizard crafts for his friends, that's cool. But in a nationwide game with many GMs, that's where ANY player crafting system is going to be a problem. Because what if I don't have any wizard friends? Then I'm going to have to pay full price for magic items when the guy next to me got all his for half price from the wizard in the last game he was in.
Plus, it also behooves a nationwide game like PFS to have more control over what players obtain, and crafting takes away that entirely. It's not so much about balance, as CONTROL that is necessary for a nationwide game.
Besides, if you are using PFS as the "standard" for balance, then there is a TON of rules changes they've made for PFS that are not official ruleset, like the whole fact that in PFS Racial Heritage does not allow humans to take other racial class archetypes... in the core rules it does. There was a big debate over that, and a lot of people kept getting confused since the actual game rules and the PFS "houserule" differ.
I do not think you have ever played PFS, but that is ok. I never said it was a basis, you like to respond to only portions of my posts so I will stop making them. Good luck with your home game.
No problem, man. :)
PFS and all organized play has too limit option are it would be horrible wreck. You can't have scenario that will work for all the varied levels of power everybody will be playing at. Heck even that will change from day to day as people will be playing with different people constantly.
It is the PFS structure that make rules broken...not the rules themselves.
And since people who play in Organized games are the minority of people who play the game...it is kinda of silly to assume the rules should reflect the limition of organized play.
Not saying Organized play is not a great way to introduce new players to the game...but most players I know eventualy graduate from Organized play to home games. Or don't have the time to commitment to a home game.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
PFS and all organized play has too limit option are it would be horrible wreck. You can't have scenario that will work for all the varied levels of power everybody will be playing at. Heck even that will change from day to day as people will be playing with different people constantly.
It is the PFS structure that make rules broken...not the rules themselves.
And since people who play in Organized games are the minority of people who play the game...it is kinda of silly to assume the rules should reflect the limition of organized play.
Not saying Organized play is not a great way to introduce new players to the game...but most players I know eventualy graduate from Organized play to home games. Or don't have the time to commitment to a home game.
But here is the thing...if something can horribly break PFS games, you don't think that could happen to home games as well? Yes you as a good and experienced DM could avoid it...but then are all games run by good and experienced DM only then? Who can NEVER make a lapse in judgment no less. I'm not saying we need a crafting system that works well for PFS...but a system that is so inherently broken that if applied into PFS, it would cause catastrophic balance issue (even if only the crafter can used said feats) seems like not exactly a good or even acceptable system to me.
But here is the thing...if something can horribly break PFS games, you don't think that could happen to home games as well? Yes you as a good and experienced DM could avoid it...but then are all games run by good and experienced DM only then? Who can NEVER make a lapse in judgment no less. I'm not saying we need a crafting system that works well for PFS...but a system that is so inherently broken that if applied into PFS, it would cause catastrophic balance issue (even if only the crafter can used said feats) seems like not exactly a good or even acceptable system to me.
Absolutely a rule can break any home game. But with a home game it is alot easier to fix. Partialy because it usualy contains alot fewer numbers...parialy because the discussion in done in person. I I make a mistake( and I do at times) because my players know me they can call me on it. In the PFS...where you might not be familair with a GM or the other players it is harder.
There are thing I find broken..I can quickly house rule them and move on. If something is discover to be broken in PFS...it has to go up the chain of command if you will...and discussed among a group of people. Wiuth the PFS message boards going into flamewars etc. And not matter what ruling is made...there will be always a group of people unhappy and rage quit. A good and experienced GM has no power at a PFS table.
Now I am not saying the crafting system is perfect. It could be better...but I don't think throwing it out and giving it a complete rehaul is the answear.
I have a questions:
1) why does not the PFS comes up with a crafting system that works within the PFS?
2) Have the even tried using the crafting system? If not...how do they know it is broken?
One last point...I rather Pazio did not make a game that caters to the PFS...as I don't want them to cater to my homes games either. You are not going to make the perfect system...so it is in my humble opinion better to come up with a inclusive system that with mods can work for alot of people.
|
|
One last point...I rather Pazio did not make a game that caters to the PFS...as I don't want them to cater to my homes games either. You are not going to make the perfect system...so it is in my humble opinion better to come up with a inclusive system...
I think I may have unintentionally started a derailing here, and I think the point was missed.
What I had said that got us on this topic is that if you are going to point out FAQs, then one thing GMs do when determining what they will allow in a home game is what PFS is allowing to help guide our decisions and to make a game fair to everyone.
The question posed is "would you play with this GM?" Sometimes players need to ask themselves "Would you GM for this player?" A lot of time and effort goes into setting up a game, and honestly if you think you can do better go at it. Play by posts on this website are constantly looking for GMs. I am running three at the moment, about to start a fourth. Please start one for me to play, I will use what ever craft rules you like.
You do realize that pazio has basically admitted that the magic item crafting rules are borked and is getting a rehaul...RIGHT? Seriously, the magic item creation rules as written and clarified in FAQ is BROKEN. As in you let a player run with it and they WILL break you game broken.
I'd like to know more from you why exactly crafting is broken. Back in the old 3.0 days, didn't you have to also spend XP to craft? I always liked that rule ... maybe it should come back.
I also wonder if crafting is broken because so many DMs fail to account for time. If you hand-wave the passage of time away, you're ignoring a very large cost as part of using those Craft abilities.
I think I may have unintentionally started a derailing here, and I think the point was missed.
What I had said that got us on this topic is that if you are going to point out FAQs, then one thing GMs do when determining what they will allow in a home game is what PFS is allowing to help guide our decisions and to make a game fair to everyone.
The question posed is "would you play with this GM?" Sometimes players need to ask themselves "Would you GM for this player?" A lot of time and effort goes into setting up a game, and honestly if you think you can do better go at it. Play by posts on this website are constantly looking for GMs. I am running three at the moment, about to start a fourth. Please start one for me to play, I will use what ever craft rules you like.
It is ok. I think this is a more interesting topic anyway. I mean no offense to the OP but he was seeking affirmination...he got it.
But on the new topic looking at the PFS might help you..espcialy if you are a new GM with new players. But when you do remember the PFS has to be fair to a rather larger number of players than your home game. So they kinda of to go with the lowest common denominator. This will not reflect your group. Personaly while a GM can get guidence from whatever outside souce he likes...in the end if he does not look at who he is playing with than he is not being fair.
As for your...challenge?...request?
I kinda busy being in three groups(one meeting whenever but usualy multiple times a week...one on Thursday...one on every other Saturday the other Sat I usualy trave to my friends house who lives kinda far).
But I can see if I can squeeze it in. I have though never even played in a Play by post game...so it would be kinda of new experience and challenge. Is there infomation on this website about how to set up and run a play by post game?
|
|
I think I may have unintentionally started a derailing here, and I think the point was missed.
What I had said that got us on this topic is that if you are going to point out FAQs, then one thing GMs do when determining what they will allow in a home game is what PFS is allowing to help guide our decisions and to make a game fair to everyone.
The question posed is "would you play with this GM?" Sometimes players need to ask themselves "Would you GM for this player?" A lot of time and effort goes into setting up a game, and honestly if you think you can do better go at it. Play by posts on this website are constantly looking for GMs. I am running three at the moment, about to start a fourth. Please start one for me to play, I will use what ever craft rules you like.
It is ok. I think this is a more interesting topic anyway. I mean no offense to the OP but he was seeking affirmination...he got it.
But on the new topic looking at the PFS might help you..espcialy if you are a new GM with new players. But when you do remember the PFS has to be fair to a rather larger number of players than your home game. So they kinda of to go with the lowest common denominator. This will not reflect your group. Personaly while a GM can get guidence from whatever outside souce he likes...in the end if he does not look at who he is playing with than he is not being fair.
As for your...challenge?...request?
I kinda busy being in three groups(one meeting whenever but usualy multiple times a week...one on Thursday...one on every other Saturday the other Sat I usualy trave to my friends house who lives kinda far).
But I can see if I can squeeze it in. I have though never even played in a Play by post game...so it would be kinda of new experience and challenge. Is there infomation on this website about how to set up and run a play by post game?
See if you play in PFS, then guess who the people in your home game are from? That's where things might get relevant. You take everything literal eh? I was pointing out through this thing called Irony that I would happily play by any crafting rules just to play. You want to know how to do a play by post? Click on my picture and go to campaigns. Read what is there. Rinse repeat until it sinks in. Or use the magical search option found on this website.
I would much, much rather play with this GM than the tons of GMs who have popped up on these boards saying "I totally ignore WBL because magic items should be *special*. Those fighters don't deserve to have continual weapon upgrades. Oh, and yes, I do tend to play casters, why do you ask?"
See if you play in PFS, then guess who the people in your home game are from? That's where things might get relevant. You take everything literal eh? I was pointing out through this thing called Irony that I would happily play by any crafting rules just to play. You want to know how to do a play by post? Click on my picture and go to campaigns. Read what is there. Rinse repeat until it sinks in. Or use the magical search option found on this website
I was going to post something condscending back...instead I am going to ask
What did I say that caused this reaction?
And actualy no one except for two people(will three but he owns a gaming store so he kinda did to supported organized play at his store...but hates every minute of it and has stopped...and since well Organized play rarely brings money to the store...the support he gives is drying up fast) of the 25 people I game come from the PFS or any other organized play.
One hated it.. he found one of my groups. He probably would have given up on RPGs entirely if he had not.
The other probably won't be with us much longer. He is a obnoxious player and well those are the people, around here atleast, the tend to stay in PFS games...the people most home games won't have.
Sorry but I know more people who have been turned away by organized play than who have became gamers thur it.
As to your statement of playing with any craft rules just to play...um where did I say I would not? I actualy said a change to the craft rules would not bother at all(along as it up front). Heck I am right now creating a low magic world where except for scribe scroll and brew potion there are no craft feats...and magic items are rare and special. I am not doing because I think it is broken..I am doing because of the concept and a change of pace. So I would defintly play in a game without ot limited magic item crafting.
If I may suggest get off your high horse and actualy read what people are saying.
I would much, much rather play with this GM than the tons of GMs who have popped up on these boards saying "I totally ignore WBL because magic items should be *special*. Those fighters don't deserve to have continual weapon upgrades. Oh, and yes, I do tend to play casters, why do you ask?"
Um...actualy fighters and other non-casters have it alot worst than caster under such a system. I ignore the WBL so I can give the non-casters a leg up in gear that they need.
If you follow the hard limit on WBL or run a low magic game than you have better nerfed casters it even power dispairty even gets larger.
|
|
See if you play in PFS, then guess who the people in your home game are from? That's where things might get relevant. You take everything literal eh? I was pointing out through this thing called Irony that I would happily play by any crafting rules just to play. You want to know how to do a play by post? Click on my picture and go to campaigns. Read what is there. Rinse repeat until it sinks in. Or use the magical search option found on this websiteI was going to post something condscending back...instead I am going to ask
What did I say that caused this reaction?
And actualy no one except for two people(will three but he owns a gaming store so he kinda did to supported organized play at his store...but hates every minute of it and has stopped...and since well Organized play rarely brings money to the store...the support he gives is drying up fast) of the 25 people I game come from the PFS or any other organized play.
One hated it.. he found one of my groups. He probably would have given up on RPGs entirely if he had not.
The other probably won't be with us much longer. He is a obnoxious player and well those are the people, around here atleast, the tend to stay in PFS games...the people most home games won't have.
Sorry but I know more people who have been turned away by organized play than who have became gamers thur it.
As to your statement of playing with any craft rules just to play...um where did I say I would not? I actualy said a change to the craft rules would not bother at all(along as it up front). Heck I am right now creating a low magic world where except for scribe scroll and brew potion there are no craft feats...and magic items are rare and special. I am not doing because I think it is broken..I am doing because of the concept and a change of pace. So I would defintly play in a game without ot limited magic item crafting.
If I may suggest get off your high horse and actualy read what people are saying.
I just answered your questions. Plain and simple. What did you do to get those answers? You asked for the answers? Makes sense right?
So your group of 25 people is more inline with the majority than the thousands that play PFS? Sure.
As to the craft rules...that was for the OP, as I said. Do you even read what I type?
|
|
I would much, much rather play with this GM than the tons of GMs who have popped up on these boards saying "I totally ignore WBL because magic items should be *special*. Those fighters don't deserve to have continual weapon upgrades. Oh, and yes, I do tend to play casters, why do you ask?"Um...actualy fighters and other non-casters have it alot worst than caster under such a system. I ignore the WBL so I can give the non-casters a leg up in gear that they need.
If you follow the hard limit on WBL or run a low magic game than you have better nerfed casters it even power dispairty even gets larger.
Such a system as what? You are so lost you do not even know what hes referring too. Man you are funny.
I just answered your questions. Plain and simple. What did you do to get those answers? You asked for the answers? Makes sense right?
So your group of 25 people is more inline with the majority than the thousands that play PFS? Sure.
As to the craft rules...that was for the OP, as I said. Do you even read what I type?
I see than can you apologize? The way you answeared my question was highly insultive.
And the what...the I'll be generous, couple of ten thousands people are representive of the multiple hundred of thousands of people that play the game?
I'll repeat it again..'One last point...I rather Pazio did not make a game that caters to the PFS...as I don't want them to cater to my homes games either. You are not going to make the perfect system...so it is in my humble opinion better to come up with a inclusive system that with mods can work for alot of people.' You even quoted it.
Sure I guess Pazio could go the route of basing the game on the needs of organized play...of course it will probably get the same result as WotC did when they had that same idea with 4th ed. Funny how WotC has decided to deemphaisi their organized play and not seek their input when making 5th ed.
Listen I am sorry if you can't see the limitations of organized play. I am sorry if you think organized play is anything but a stepping stone to home games for most people who play it.
But I'll repeat it again...
One last point...I rather Pazio did not make a game that caters to the PFS...as I don't want them to cater to my homes games either. You are not going to make the perfect system...so it is in my humble opinion better to come up with a inclusive system that with mods can work for alot of people.
Maybe it will sink in.
|
|
I just answered your questions. Plain and simple. What did you do to get those answers? You asked for the answers? Makes sense right?
So your group of 25 people is more inline with the majority than the thousands that play PFS? Sure.
As to the craft rules...that was for the OP, as I said. Do you even read what I type?
I see than can you apologize? The way you answeared my question was highly insultive.
And the what...the I'll be generous, couple of ten thousands people are representive of the multiple hundred of thousands of people that play the game?
I'll repeat it again..'One last point...I rather Pazio did not make a game that caters to the PFS...as I don't want them to cater to my homes games either. You are not going to make the perfect system...so it is in my humble opinion better to come up with a inclusive system that with mods can work for alot of people.' You even quoted it.
Sure I guess Pazio could go the route of basing the game on the needs of organized play...of course it will probably get the same result as WotC did when they had that same idea with 4th ed. Funny how WotC has decided to deemphaisi their organized play and not seek their input when making 5th ed.
Listen I am sorry if you can't see the limitations of organized play. I am sorry if you think organized play is anything but a stepping stone to home games for most people who play it.
But I'll repeat it again...
One last point...I rather Pazio did not make a game that caters to the PFS...as I don't want them to cater to my homes games either. You are not going to make the perfect system...so it is in my humble opinion better to come up with a inclusive system that with mods can work for alot of people.
Maybe it will sink in.
Pazio doesn't make your home games. The GM does. Maybe that will sink in. Hey I tried to bring this thread back to its original intent, but you want to keep on going so lets do it me and you.
I'll repeat it again. Click on my picture, go to Campaigns. Read What is there. Rinse Repeat until it sinks in. Did you figure it out yet? Because I do not see a game up by you.
Maybe it will sink in.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This thread is weird. I have no idea where all the emotion is coming from. It's liked I've arrived at a party just after the big fight, the breakup and the tearful departure. :/
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This thread is weird. I have no idea where all the emotion is coming from. It's liked I've arrived at a party just after the big fight, the breakup and the tearful departure. :/
You are always saying stuff like that, Steve! I hate you for coming late to the party and now I'm leaving...and don't try to follow me!
I do not think you have ever played PFS, but that is ok. I never said it was a basis, you like to respond to only portions of my posts so I will stop making them. Good luck with your home game.
No, I have never actually played in a PFS game (the closest Venture-Captain and games are about 75 miles away... either Wichita KS or Kansas City Missouri I'm smack dab in the middle, either way it's about 75 miles) but I have read rules threads where players (sometimes even developers) are discussing rules, it's established that the book as written says one thing, but then some PFS players (or Venture-Captains? Not sure) point out that the PFS rule is significantly different. This is fine, as long as it's made clear that these are PFS house rules, and not the RAW/RAI.
I don't play PFS at this time, therefore I don't care about PFS house rulings until I do. So, whether crafting is allowed in PFS or not, doesn't affect me one bit whether I am GM or player.
As for a few things others have said, yes if you want to go to the other extreme of nearly no magic items because they are "special" or such things, then yeah I'd rather have a micromanager than nothing at all. We can talk extreme opposites all day... Generally I think we all would agree either EXTREME is bad...
Finally, I'll add that I don't ignore the WBL completely, but I use it as a guideline, not a hard and fast rule that characters shall not exceed these levels or chaos will ensue.
Pazio doesn't make your home games. The GM does. Maybe that will sink in. Hey I tried to bring this thread back to its original intent, but you want to keep on going so lets do it me and you.
I'll repeat it again. Click on my picture, go to Campaigns. Read What is there. Rinse Repeat until it sinks in. Did you figure it out yet? Because I do not see a game up by you.
And Pazio does not make the PFS either. Your point if any?
Though I disagree The GM and the players make the game.
And yes I saw your campaigns....I think I won't run a standard game though using play by post...as it developes really slowly...
But it does I think work perfectly for a type of game I have wanted to run for a long time. Probably keep it pure RP though...throw out the rules or Keep them very minimal.
As for the fact you have not seen a game up yet from me...mmm...well dude it takes a little time to put things together...set ground rules...heck the game I think of doing uses a rule set I have not look at in 10 years. Also I have been up straight 24 hours...a little tired.
I probably will say I commit the time I would want to this game is proably the only stumbling block. As I said I actualy have people I play with in person...that kinda trumps a play by post game..unless it is with friends who have moved away(but I got skype for that).
Anyway since you are so...persistant in seeing a game from me...at best expect something by next week...though I'll probably not have time for it...as the game I would want to run would eat up my time that I don't have.
Also if you are just being overly clever...as I said I have been up for 24 hours straight(sometimes works sucks like that) so I am tired and really don't care for your tone.
Anyway goodnight all.
Well, if you don't want the item then it can go to party loot and be sold, then that money is divided equally among all the players.This means I find a new GM or I will GM.
Yeah, he makes sure an item "drops" for every character, and there's no debate allowed in character about who gets what item. Oh, look a wand of fireballs... GM MANDATE THE WIZARD GETS IT. Oh look a flaming dagger, GM MANDATE THE ROGUE GETS IT...
If I can't take the money to buy what I want then how does it help me? If I can buy what I want then I misunderstood.
If I can't take the money to buy what I want then how does it help me? If I can buy what I want then I misunderstood.Well, if you don't want the item then it can go to party loot and be sold, then that money is divided equally among all the players.This means I find a new GM or I will GM.
Yeah, he makes sure an item "drops" for every character, and there's no debate allowed in character about who gets what item. Oh, look a wand of fireballs... GM MANDATE THE WIZARD GETS IT. Oh look a flaming dagger, GM MANDATE THE ROGUE GETS IT...
So you start to see some more of why I had such a a hard time accepting his enforcement of the WBL and player equality. But yeah, the reason I replied to your post that you'd find a new GM or GM yourself was kinda to further clarify, but at the same time I agreed with you kinda, just didn't really say the latter.
So you start to see some more of why I had such a a hard time accepting his enforcement of the WBL and player equality. But yeah, the reason I replied to your post that you'd find a new GM or GM yourself was kinda to further clarify, but at the same time I agreed with you kinda, just didn't really say the latter.If I can't take the money to buy what I want then how does it help me? If I can buy what I want then I misunderstood.Well, if you don't want the item then it can go to party loot and be sold, then that money is divided equally among all the players.This means I find a new GM or I will GM.
Yeah, he makes sure an item "drops" for every character, and there's no debate allowed in character about who gets what item. Oh, look a wand of fireballs... GM MANDATE THE WIZARD GETS IT. Oh look a flaming dagger, GM MANDATE THE ROGUE GETS IT...
ok..In that case I sticking to my previous statement. :)
I would much, much rather play with this GM than the tons of GMs who have popped up on these boards saying "I totally ignore WBL because magic items should be *special*. Those fighters don't deserve to have continual weapon upgrades. Oh, and yes, I do tend to play casters, why do you ask?"Um...actualy fighters and other non-casters have it alot worst than caster under such a system. I ignore the WBL so I can give the non-casters a leg up in gear that they need.
If you follow the hard limit on WBL or run a low magic game than you have better nerfed casters it even power dispairty even gets larger.
Sorry, I was unclear, that was actually what I meant. The GM that ignores WBL is probably one who primarily focuses on casters as a player, and is therefore ignorant of the extent to which martial characters rely on regular equipment upgrades.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
He nerfed the feat. Great. GMs nerf perfectly good rules all the time. Just don't play that class/feat/whatever.
The solution to dealing with this guy, as well as to dealing with anyone else who perceives WBL as absolute, and also as well as anyone who believes that crafters should give their work away for free to other PCs by fundamental obligation, is don't play a crafter.
If I were in his game, as you describe it, I'd play a fighter, give away all my possessions every level, and demand he the GM provide me new ones in one way or another to catch me up to WBL.
I would much, much rather play with this GM than the tons of GMs who have popped up on these boards saying "I totally ignore WBL because magic items should be *special*. Those fighters don't deserve to have continual weapon upgrades. Oh, and yes, I do tend to play casters, why do you ask?"
Either way can work. My favourite character of the last 20-odd years of D&D is still a fighter. He got his first magic item around level 5, if I recall correctly. As long as the GM and players are on the same page and the challenges are appropriate, there doesn't have to be any problem with a low-magic (or low-treasure) game.
First, "balance" is a nebulous concept at best. Anyone who understands the system can make a powerful character. It doesn't matter what he bans, there will always be some combinations that are overall more effective than others. If he can't handle that he needs to find a different game.
Second, why in the world would a crafter only craft things for themselves? Crafting feats are a boost for the whole party.
Your friend sounds like he has control issues. It's manifesting in ways that not only make him a Typhoid Mary GM, but also make him not see the inherent cooperative value in crafting feats.
(If you haven't read any of Ron Edwards' RPG Theory essays, you should. They are highly technical, but extremely thought provoking and well written. If you haven't heard of RPG Theory before, Start Here.)
|
Sigh...
There is one big restriction on item crafting: Time.
Crafting items takes a large amount of time. Let's go for an example to show this:
Everyone in the group wants a +2 belt or headband. These items cost 2,000gps to make and have a price of 4,000. Say you have a group of 4 characters that's 8,000 gps in total.
As the price of the items is 16,000gps that's 16 days of work. Whilst adventuring that time is increased by a factor of 4 to 64 days. That's a lot for an item that's relatively cheap and fairly common.
As you go up levels this gets worse. In order to craft +6 belts/headbands the time needed goes up to 144 days or a massive 576 days whilst adventuring to craft them. Who has 5 months to take out of adventuring just to craft 4 items?
And none of this takes into account the fact that these are only 4 items. A group of adventurers will want bracers of armour, amulets of natural armour, cloaks of resistance, boots of speed and all the other items that a group wants. All of these will take time that the player does not have.
PFS doesn't allow crafting for two reasons. Firstly, there is no system for tracking time between scenarios and secondly the prestige system allows players to buy what they want anyway. In this environment crafting rules would unbalance the campaign.
In conclusion, these rules do not allow a player to double their money unless the GM allows it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Most of the false assumptions about a "broken" crafting system are from GMs who fail to do their duty in properly eyeballing the final price of a custom item. If used as intended the system works just fine. I mean ANY system where a player can customize their own content is easy to break without GM supervision.
If used as intended the system works just fine.
In your opinion.
If used as intended the system works just fine.In your opinion.
Not just mine. So far the Devs are of the same mind. And while things might change with the new crafting system from what I hear it isn't really going to be different from the existing one. They will focus more on teaching people how to properly use crafting.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You do realize that pazio has basically admitted that the magic item crafting rules are borked and is getting a rehaul...RIGHT? Seriously, the magic item creation rules as written and clarified in FAQ is BROKEN. As in you let a player run with it and they WILL break you game broken.I'd like to know more from you why exactly crafting is broken. Back in the old 3.0 days, didn't you have to also spend XP to craft? I always liked that rule ... maybe it should come back.
I also wonder if crafting is broken because so many DMs fail to account for time. If you hand-wave the passage of time away, you're ignoring a very large cost as part of using those Craft abilities.
"You return to the inn."
"Good, I need some crafting time."
"Hold on, a merchant comes up and says, "I need you to find my sister who was kidnapped by a dragon.""
"I tell him to piss off, I'm crafting."
"Ok, the next day a king comes to the inn and asks for help finding his golden hat."
"Sorry, crafting. I tell the king to leave until I'm done crafting."
"Three hours later a dragon randomly attacks the village. Roll initiative."
"What is this? Is my crafting gear the center of the universe? Is Zeus sending this crap to me so I can't craft? If this stuff happening in every hamlet?"
"OK crafting done. Let's get on with the adventure."
"OK you walk outside and see a light that stretches from horizon to horizon. It rushes towards you at an impossible speed and washes over the town disintegrating everything including you. Congratulations the world is dead and so are you."
"What!?! That's not fair! We had no chance to stop that!
"Actually, investigating the king's hat and the dragon would have led you to the doomsday cult but you were too busy crafting."
Killing the PCs is only going to let them bypass the time requirement with their next character since they can start with crafted gear.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"OK crafting done. Let's get on with the adventure."
"OK you walk outside and see a light that stretches from horizon to horizon. It rushes towards you at an impossible speed and washes over the town disintegrating everything including you. Congratulations the world is dead and so are you."
"Okay, what's next?"