RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Keep in mind the WBL chart states you start with a certain number of gold coins. It's not a representational value of total wealth. You literally have that number of GP to play with.
No, it does not. Very common misconception about WBL. It is patently a "representational value of total wealth." Bolding mine:
Table: Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level. Note that this table assumes a standard fantasy game. Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value. It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased.
Table: Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.
It's not a pile of gold coins that new characters of higher levels are simply entitled to spend.
I should point out also that I am not a GM that hates crafting. Quite the contrary, I encourage crafting, but I won't let it dominate the game, either.
I'll post this quote and be done with the gold pieces bit. There's a 1,000 or so post thread where the FAQ got filled that I'll link to.
Wealth And Money
Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces that he can spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment. As a character adventures, he accumulates more wealth that can be spent on better gear and magic items. Table: Starting Character Wealth lists the starting gold piece values by class. In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less. For characters above 1st level, see Table: Character Wealth by Level.
Really in the end what it boils down to I think is how you see WBL. Is it set in stone, or is it a guideline. Assuming the party will sell treasure they don't need or want, then use that to craft stuff they do want, overall their WBL should stay CLOSE to the same. Maybe it will go up some, maybe not.
As for crafting at character creation, that's something completely different. I've had GMs allow it, I've had GMs not allow it. At 1st level, either way it's not a big deal. So the witch can craft 2 potions of cure light wounds instead of 1. I don't think that's game breaking. I also won't sweat it if the GM doesn't let me. Now, were we making higher level characters with a WBL of 64,000, even then the person saying they get 128,000 worth of gear is kind of exaggerating, unless the player took every single item crafting feat in the game... and in that case... if they spent that many feats on crafting feats alone, then their character is GIMPED without those magic items, they damn well NEED them.
If a player blows their entire 64,000 budget on one item, just say WTF that's not gonna fly. Force the player to be REASONABLE and don't let them ABUSE the creation feats, but as others said, if you can't get stuff for a discount, might as well just do custom orders at the magic shop and use your feats for metamagic feats or such things.
For all of those out there who were confused on how you could play an RPG without focusing on a STORY, and still have it not be a simple turn-based tactical fighting game: The story of the game can come from two places from a GM/adventure/path/module, or it can come from the players interactions with the world. Horribly simplified, if it comes from the GM/AP/module, it is a type of railroad. Once you start that plot, you cannot deviate, and the GM/AP/module very rarely has guidance for when you do. The plots in that type of game are well designed, epic, and usually have an interesting story, but that is only one way of playing the game. The other way story comes about is through the effects of the decisions your characters make. You may begin with a premise, or a guideline (merchants trying to carry precious loot to a large town, assassins hired to kill a local bartender), and the story develops from there, based off of the world interacting with the PC's decisions. Maybe they plan the assassinations attempt poorly, and the guy escapes. The original hirer might start tracking them down, their merchant ship crashes when they kill the captain in anger and all fail their profession: sailor rolls. There is a world, and the more detailed the world the better, but the plot is what the PCs decide should happen.
I'll post this quote and be done with the gold pieces bit. There's a 1,000 or so post thread where the FAQ got filled that I'll link to.
ThreadWealth And Money
Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces that he can spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment. As a character adventures, he accumulates more wealth that can be spent on better gear and magic items. Table: Starting Character Wealth lists the starting gold piece values by class. In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less. For characters above 1st level, see Table: Character Wealth by Level.
Table: Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level. Note that this table assumes a standard fantasy game. Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value. It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased.
Table: Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.
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Once you start that plot, you cannot deviate...
You lost me there. I planned on using the first two modules of Savage Tide to kick off a campaign after my Shackled City campaign ended, then use other material to create a plot based off of the characters actions. So your binary description presents a limited view of the possibilities.
Personally I agree with what your friend wrote here. I would never let a crafting character skate by WBL by only counting cost, especially when bringing in a new character beyond 1st level. He's quite right that Craft feats let you get the gear you want, not the gear you find, and they help you break even when you're selling unwanted loot at 50% of price. SKR's ruling acknowledged; I disagree that Craft feats should let you increase WBL by up to 100%.
I'm generally of the same mind. The crafting feats are wealth customizers; they transform what isn't wanted into what is without major loss of value like and selling and buying.
The SKR FAQ entry is simply ill thought out and blows the point of significant WBL accounting in the first place. If counting the crafter's home-made items at price makes it look like he's got more wealth... it's because he's actually got more wealth. All you have to do to see this is a bad idea (if WBL is important to you in the first place) is look at the items as if they had all been distributed by the GM in that form already - no crafting or selling/buying necessary to get them. Then, you'd have to account for everything by price. If the crafter has too much under those conditions compared to the others then he has too much compared to the others under any system.
My view of the crafting rules is, I suppose, a complex one. I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with them as long as you use them with a pretty strict eye to their real value to the PCs. The general guidelines for setting prices incorporate some good principles like defensive bonuses being cheaper than offensive ones, yet the actual prices for many things, particularly when using the guidelines for custom stuff, are pretty out of whack. The Big 6 items are pretty much too cheap for their utility compared to less constantly useful items.
But most of all, while I acknowledge that many players had wanted consistent guidelines for years in the run-up to 3e, including such easy crafting has really scrambled fundamental balancing elements in the game that used to exist in 1e/2e if followed as written. Pursuing the Big 6 items, always a desired strategy if one that was usually unrealizable in 1e/2e, is now consistently achieved to the detriment of interesting but less constantly useful items. Magic item distribution that used to be skewed heavily toward consumables, weapons, and armor (if using the random tables) skewed heavily toward caster-friendly items like wands that also undermine the resource managing pressures of limited spell slots. Basically, I understand why the 3e designers included the item crafting feats, but I look on their inclusion as a major negative transformative influence on the game.
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My contention has always been that GMs who hate crafting simply hate the idea that PCs can have good things. They want ways to steal from the players and be as unaccountable as possible simply claiming "that's how the system works."
That sounds pretty tin-foil-hatty...
@Bill Dunn
I'm not calling your view on WBL or character balance wrong. You seem to simply have a different base assumption of what Paizo views as what characters should be able to do. Instead of fighting this view I try to work with it.
The reason those items are priced as they are is because that's what Paizo thinks they're worth, obviously enough. A friend who GMs a game I play in had a similar reaction to a planar battle oracle I made that I equipped with the sword of the planes. Like peanut butter and jelly, right? It's just a 22k item but it works as a +4 vs outsiders. He was blown away at how cheap that item was. I added holy to it having the craft magic arms and armor feat and he was tempted to call it a minor artifact. He's also an old D&D guy.
My only conclusion from this, as I am not an old D&D player, is that the base expectation of gear and the ability to survive has vastly changed. The system is geared to let PCs win and generally be awesome. I think some people, mostly those who come from D&D, think this is just strange and implement house rules to maintain that old feel of "you're going to die if you don't crit this mofo right now" while allowing them only the bare necessities in terms of gear and gold. This may or may not include a few "extra" items when the GM feels "nice."
Does this seem accurate to you?
That sounds pretty tin-foil-hatty...
So be it. No other behavior I can think of rationally explains it, though.
Quite simply, both players and Dams need to be on the same page about WBL, wether you use it as a hard limit or not.
I appreciate the sentiment, but I think the players should be on the same key as their DMs, rather than a structure to hold back water. :)
Quite simply, both players and Dams need to be on the same page about WBL, wether you use it as a hard limit or not.I appreciate the sentiment, but I think the players should be on the same key as their DMs, rather than a structure to hold back water. :)
And I thought he was talking about domestic animals who play Pathfinder needing to be on the same page about it as their moms.
Mirriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Definition of DAM : the female parent of an animal and especially of a domestic animal
Sounds like a lack of imagination to me.
I said rational. If I were being imaginative I could come with a bunch of theories.
A lack of empathy then. Plenty of perfectly rational reasons, you just don't agree with them. So you label them irrational.Sounds like a lack of imagination to me.I said rational.
Plausible. Though, with each reason I can think of that could be rational without as much bias as I can leave out falls under the single umbrella of a person who hasn't taken in the balance of the system as a whole or the practicalities of the mechanics as they would play out in-game. This is someone who sees a subset of the PFRPG and gasps. Hence, this is irrational as that system does not operate without the others. Or, they have done this but have made houserules that change the default balance of the system so crafting naturally, as presented RAW, is similarly out of balance so they need other houserules to bring it back into their version of balance.
@Bill Dunn
I'm not calling your view on WBL or character balance wrong. You seem to simply have a different base assumption of what Paizo views as what characters should be able to do. Instead of fighting this view I try to work with it.
The reason those items are priced as they are is because that's what Paizo thinks they're worth, obviously enough. A friend who GMs a game I play in had a similar reaction to a planar battle oracle I made that I equipped with the sword of the planes. Like peanut butter and jelly, right? It's just a 22k item but it works as a +4 vs outsiders. He was blown away at how cheap that item was. I added holy to it having the craft magic arms and armor feat and he was tempted to call it a minor artifact. He's also an old D&D guy.
My only conclusion from this, as I am not an old D&D player, is that the base expectation of gear and the ability to survive has vastly changed. The system is geared to let PCs win and generally be awesome. I think some people, mostly those who come from D&D, think this is just strange and implement house rules to maintain that old feel of "you're going to die if you don't crit this mofo right now" while allowing them only the bare necessities in terms of gear and gold. This may or may not include a few "extra" items when the GM feels "nice."
Does this seem accurate to you?
Considering the older systems were also geared to let PCs win and generally be awesome, I don't think saying that about 3e/PF is much of a distinction. But I would agree that some expectations have changed, or rather, the expectations of some cohorts of players are different, because the expectations of some cohorts of players havent changed and they're still playing PF quite as successfully as they played 1e.
It has been my experience that PF runs quite well (and so did 3e) on assumptions and treasure practices from 1e days.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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The SKR FAQ entry is simply ill thought out and blows the point of significant WBL accounting in the first place. If counting the crafter's home-made items at price makes it look like he's got more wealth... it's because he's actually got more wealth. All you have to do to see this is a bad idea (if WBL is important to you in the first place) is look at the items as if they had all been distributed by the GM in that form already - no crafting or selling/buying necessary to get them. Then, you'd have to account for everything by price. If the crafter has too much under those conditions compared to the others then he has too much compared to the others under any system.
Agreed, Bill Dunn. SKR is my absolute all-time fave designer, but even he bats a foul from time to time. IMO that FAQ ruling is one of those times.
This view of WBL is not some kind of throwback grognardia, either. It's based on both mathematical comparison and actual play experience. So let's disagree without throwing around terms like "irrational." People usually find that insulting.
That's their problem. I'm using it as what it is: a word with a certain definition. If they want to take it personally so be it.
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@Bill Dunn
I'm not calling your view on WBL or character balance wrong. You seem to simply have a different base assumption of what Paizo views as what characters should be able to do. Instead of fighting this view I try to work with it.
The reason those items are priced as they are is because that's what Paizo thinks they're worth, obviously enough. A friend who GMs a game I play in had a similar reaction to a planar battle oracle I made that I equipped with the sword of the planes. Like peanut butter and jelly, right? It's just a 22k item but it works as a +4 vs outsiders. He was blown away at how cheap that item was. I added holy to it having the craft magic arms and armor feat and he was tempted to call it a minor artifact. He's also an old D&D guy.
My only conclusion from this, as I am not an old D&D player, is that the base expectation of gear and the ability to survive has vastly changed. The system is geared to let PCs win and generally be awesome. I think some people, mostly those who come from D&D, think this is just strange and implement house rules to maintain that old feel of "you're going to die if you don't crit this mofo right now" while allowing them only the bare necessities in terms of gear and gold. This may or may not include a few "extra" items when the GM feels "nice."
Does this seem accurate to you?
Considering the older systems were also geared to let PCs win and generally be awesome, I don't think saying that about 3e/PF is much of a distinction. But I would agree that some expectations have changed, or rather, the expectations of some cohorts of players are different, because the expectations of some cohorts of players havent changed and they're still playing PF quite as successfully as they played 1e.
It has been my experience that PF runs quite well (and so did 3e) on assumptions and treasure practices from 1e days.
What are those assumptions and treasure practices? Most people I know who played 1e and 2e (myself included) believe(d) that the older editions were harder, meaning that you had less treasure, fewer magical items, and death happened more often. However, actual analysis of older modules reveals some of those assumptions to be false.
In pathfinder, your wealth by level for 3rd level is 3,000gp.
In 1e (actually, BD&D), Keep on the Borderlands takes you from 1st to 3rd, and gives you nearly 30,000 gp plus magical items:
potion of healing (x4)
scroll of fireball
hand axe +1 (x2)
rope of climbing
arrow +1 (x6)
potion of invisibility
scroll of cure light wounds, hold person
potion of poison
wand of paralyzation (7 charges)
scroll of protection from undead (x2)
spear +1
staff of healing
plate mail +1 (x2)
potion of gaseous form (x2)
potion of growth
sword -1 cursed
elven boots
snake staff
scroll of detect magic, hold person, silence 15' radius
sword +2
helm of alignment change
wand of enemy detection (9 charges)
potion of stone to flesh (x6)
amulet of protection from turning (x28)
amulet of protection from good (x6)
1e gives you more treasure!
What about The Village of Hommlet - the classic intro module leading into the Temple of Elemental Evil (an actual 1e adventure, not BD&D)? It also takes the characters to 3rd level, and gives them nearly 31,000gp in addition to magical items:
+1 arrows (x4)
staff of striking
phylactery of action
potion of undead control
scroll of protection from undead
magic-user scroll spells: push, stinking cloud, fly
So, I have a friend that the few times I've played with him, he micromanages the Wealth by Level rules. Not only that, but he fully beieves 100% that it should be the market value for crafters, not the cost to make it that is figured. When I recently posted the FAQ entry on this on my Facebook page, sure enough he replied with a rant on it...
Still the problem with this is that a crafter would still possess almost double the actual value of equipment than other party members. The value of having an item creation feat is that you can craft what you want instead of just getting luck of the draw that the party treasure "drops" would be. Unless you have one of those DMs that ignore the fact not every shop has every single item in the treasure tables to buy. This also ignores what if your crafter is actually nice enough to craft for other party members and not greedy just to craft for themselves.
<Insulting comment to Paizo staff removed by AbsolutGrndZer0> Since over 50% of your equipment and "Gold value" is a characters power level. Even using the "Only spend so much on type X" (armor as their example) that crafter will end up much more powerful than any non-crafter as the actual value of your items is their Price not their cost.
Actually, i think that official rules about gear are broken. Are good if you want to play Diablo, but totally nonsense for almost all fantasy settings. Without tons of magic items and money is also more funny and balanced :) I play with very very few money and magic items, it's awesome. Is the real feeling you can have reading a good fantasy novel.
So, what do you all think? Agree with Paizo's FAQ, or agree with my friend?
Also, would this be enough for you to just not play with him?
If all you want is custom items and have the time to wait there's no reason to take crafting feats if you have to pay full price anyway. Just put in an order for a custom item with a wizard or some such.
Keep in mind the WBL chart states you start with a certain number of gold coins. It's not a representational value of total wealth. You literally have that number of GP to play with. Crafting doesn't double your WBL. It simply lets it stretch further.
My contention has always been that GMs who hate crafting simply hate the idea that PCs can have good things. They want ways to steal from the players and be as unaccountable as possible simply claiming "that's how the system works."
If the non-crafter sells an item he has half that item's value. If he then buys and then resells another item he has even less. The crafter has the potential to keep the amount of wealth they have a constant. If they sell they get half. They can then take that half and get the same item again or another of equal value. There is no real "stealing" from a crafter like there is with non-crafters.
GMs hate crafting because they hate the drive in their players to try and make adventures he put time into obsolete by creating work arounds.
GMs also hate crafting because they haven't figured out that what they really want is to just play E6.
Rule Number One of Players: Players will always think of work arounds that can completely change the encounter or make it obsolete, crafting or not. That's why as a GM, I've learned to keep challenges open to solving in five ways. And even then, I'm prepared for when my players throw a sixth way to monkey wrench an encounter. And I'm fine with that.
What are those assumptions and treasure practices? Most people I know who played 1e and 2e (myself included) believe(d) that the older editions were harder, meaning that you had less treasure, fewer magical items, and death happened more often. However, actual analysis of older modules reveals some of those assumptions to be false.
In pathfinder, your wealth by level for 3rd level is 3,000gp.
In 1e (actually, BD&D), Keep on the Borderlands takes you from 1st to 3rd, and gives you nearly 30,000 gp plus magical items:
I think the assumption is not so much as the amount of treasure as it is the item on demand assumption.
Being to pick what items you character has either though the craft feats or the old magic shop to ealier edition players seems broken to them. The idea being you should take what the GM gives out and be greaftuful.
But the system has changed to be more specfic. Example back in those 1st ed days a fighter will use whatever magic weapon they found. If you were using a long sword and found a +1 scimitar you would most likely to change to the scimitar.
in 3.5/PF a fighter is more invested in a given type of weapon due to feats and such. He becomes specialize with a certain weapon. So there is a need to have x gear to be fully effective.
What most people don't realize is this trend started when they introduce the weapon specialion rules back in 1st ed.
I think you guys are demonstrating two opposite extremes of examples, with regard to the effects of crafting. One is that the passage of time has no effect, because the GM will simply have another episodic adventure ready by the time that crafting is over. The other is that crafting causes such a delay that the entire world is in peril.
The middle ground seems likelier and more interesting to me. What I had in mind was that the task at hand becomes more difficult as time passes. Info the PCs had prior to the crafting attempt has gone stale and is partially out of date. Or perhaps the denizens of some stronghold the PCs need to penetrate have gotten more reinforcements in the interim. Maybe the bad guys simply got away ...
A series of trade-offs make a good game, and I like Crafting as an option. As long as there's a price to be paid, it can work in the game. The big trade-offs with Crafting are time & money. It's also good to have an outlet to absorb PC wealth.
Do what every other DM does to spellcasters. They all have a limited number of items or spells per day. Thus, put the pressure on to finish a given adventure WITHOUT resting.
How to do this? Well, start by making your NPC's responsive. Say they enter a dungeon, and wipe out a few of your encounters, and then go have a rest because they are tapped out. Have the remaining NPC's gather, and nail the PC party with everything they have. Or when a NPC runs away, have them gather with and warn the rest, thus hosing over the party. If you want to see how this works out, try Dungeon Crawl Classics; the two Rat King adventures. The second is his father's attempt at revenge, and it seriously hoses over the player characters. It's all about giving the NPC's time to prepare, just like the advantage goes to the PC's when YOU gave them lots of time to prepare with magic item crafting.
Second, start by asking what the other players are going to do while this munchkin is crafting for all that time. Ensure that they have a few things cooking of their own, so THEY have a desire to go DO something rather than just sit there.
Second, start by asking what the other players are going to do while this [player] is crafting for all that time.
We never use the crafting rules, but I'd be curious how those that do answer this question. Does everyone sit around 'carousing' while the crafters do their thing? It seems like an obvious time for the non-crafters to go and earn more money or more experience points, but people seem averse to the idea of differing experience levels within a party and if the non-crafters go out and earn more loot, it takes away a significant part of the benefit of the crafting feats.
How does it generally work?
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Second, start by asking what the other players are going to do while this [player] is crafting for all that time.We never use the crafting rules, but I'd be curious how those that do answer this question. Does everyone sit around 'carousing' while the crafters do their thing? It seems like an obvious time for the non-crafters to go and earn more money or more experience points, but people seem averse to the idea of differing experience levels within a party and if the non-crafters go out and earn more loot, it takes away a significant part of the benefit of the crafting feats.
How does it generally work?
I hated what my old DM used to do.
"Okay lads, who's crafting?"
"Alright that costs X amount so mark it off your sheet"
"Okay, X number of days pass so on to the next encounter. "
The days were basically waved away in two minutes.
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So, I have a friend that the few times I've played with him, he micromanages the Wealth by Level rules. Not only that, but he fully beieves 100% that it should be the market value for crafters, not the cost to make it that is figured. When I recently posted the FAQ entry on this on my Facebook page, sure enough he replied with a rant on it...
blah blah...
So, what do you all think? Agree with Paizo's FAQ, or agree with my friend?
Also, would this be enough for you to just not play with him?
Seriously? You bothered any of us with a big fat weepy diatribe on wealth and crafter nonsense?
You said he micromanages wealth by level but you gave no examples of what that means and provided no evidence that he was doing anything other than keeping it fair for everybody. Cause for hate? Hardly.
As to the caster/cost/market/etc. who gives a fat fig? That crap is soooo secondary to the game... I just want to slap somebody for this thread existing.
Look, if you don't like it, fine. Get yourself to a new game. But to rake this guy over the coals here on the forums for something so petty? No. I don't care how many people here might agree with you. You lose one Internets.
Second, start by asking what the other players are going to do while this [player] is crafting for all that time.We never use the crafting rules, but I'd be curious how those that do answer this question. Does everyone sit around 'carousing' while the crafters do their thing? It seems like an obvious time for the non-crafters to go and earn more money or more experience points, but people seem averse to the idea of differing experience levels within a party and if the non-crafters go out and earn more loot, it takes away a significant part of the benefit of the crafting feats.
How does it generally work?
I hated what my old DM used to do.
"Okay lads, who's crafting?"
"Alright that costs X amount so mark it off your sheet"
"Okay, X number of days pass so on to the next encounter. "
The days were basically waved away in two minutes.
And? did you expect to roleplay every second of the crafting process? I am a great, big nerd who has been playing since 1981, but even I think playing out in dramatic fashion the details of several days of fine magical crafting is going too far.
The query was about what the noncrafters do. That was shallowsoul's point, I think - the DM shouldn't role play the crafters' daily grind. But what about the noncrafters? Do they get to improve themselves (by collecting extra experience or loot). Or do they sit around waiting?
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@Bill Dunn
I'm not calling your view on WBL or character balance wrong. You seem to simply have a different base assumption of what Paizo views as what characters should be able to do. Instead of fighting this view I try to work with it.
The reason those items are priced as they are is because that's what Paizo thinks they're worth, obviously enough. A friend who GMs a game I play in had a similar reaction to a planar battle oracle I made that I equipped with the sword of the planes. Like peanut butter and jelly, right? It's just a 22k item but it works as a +4 vs outsiders. He was blown away at how cheap that item was. I added holy to it having the craft magic arms and armor feat and he was tempted to call it a minor artifact. He's also an old D&D guy.
My only conclusion from this, as I am not an old D&D player, is that the base expectation of gear and the ability to survive has vastly changed. The system is geared to let PCs win and generally be awesome. I think some people, mostly those who come from D&D, think this is just strange and implement house rules to maintain that old feel of "you're going to die if you don't crit this mofo right now" while allowing them only the bare necessities in terms of gear and gold. This may or may not include a few "extra" items when the GM feels "nice."
Does this seem accurate to you?
This is a very astute post.
Yeah, that's pretty close to it, in my opinion as an "Old D&D Guy" who plays with other "Old D&D Guys" but who has jumped head first into completely following Paizo on all power level issues. One thing I'd clarify, though, that I don't think many people (including possibly you) understand, is this..
..The way to challenge players under current Paizo Pathfinder is different than it used to be in D&D. It's not better or worse, it's just different. And it requires a good understanding of the length and breadth of the modern Paizo Pathfinder rules. But modern Paizo Pathfinder looks similar enough to old D&D that the "Old D&D Guys" who decide to run Pathfinder think they can challenge players in the "Old D&D Ways." When they try, and fail, they think modern Paizo Pathfinder is overpowered, or needs to be selectively nerfed, in order for their "Old Methods" to work properly in terms of GMing and encounter scaling.
That's the problem.
There's a disconnect between one caste of "Old D&D GMs" and the modern rule scope. It's not that they don't want you to be powerful, it's that they don't fully understand the scope of the new system, and don't know how to scale challenges properly with it.
You'll also notice that this caste of "Old D&D GMs" who selectively nerf Pathfinder are also quite often running homebrew settings and almost never stock modules. If they started out by running stock modules, or at least adapting them, then they might better understand how to properly challenge the PCs.
It's just lack of system experience that leads GMs to do this. It's not malicious.
I would be willing to play in his game. Lack of WBL, no Crafting feats and having to make do with the items that we find does not scare me.
Personally, I would write up a PC who was not dependent on any particular piece of gear to shine. Easily enough done without compromising the PC's capabilities.
One, I am a very experienced D&D player/DM, and I have no problem with a Sword of the Planes, and indeed think its rather limited in utility.
I happen to run stock modules from 3.5, the DCC ones. I've noticed, after a recent trip to my local game shop, that Pathfinder modules are not only centered around cities, they are also more than a mite easier on PC's. Part of that is centering it on a city, so there's lots of resources to play with, and part of that is the fact that there can't be a whole lot of traps in natural settings because of the sheer space that they would have to cover. Unless these modules also play up intrigue and NPC factions/plotting, you are going to end up with a severe decrease in difficulty. Yes, the art was a lot better.
I have noticed that the older stuff tends to have more variety in the power level of each encounter, while the newer stuff seems limited to closer to the PC level. That's just after looking at the ECL of each encounter, not really reading them since I haven't yet purchased any.
As for what other PC's do whilst the party spellcaster is crafting, I tend to do my level best to get them hopping with tasks and events, as DM. The net effect seems to be that relatively short crafting tasks are taken unless it's really important to the character. And, players become far more interested in using items creatively to ease their crafting or current difficulties.
I don't have magic shops, by the way. At most, one would find a NPC caster willing to sell scrolls, potions, wands, the temporary items. In major metropolises, THOSE might actually have a full item shop. But even there, characters will be forced to investigate the city, to find someone that can fulfill their request. That exposes them to city events, like thieves or intrigue. As the PC's get into the upper levels, it becomes a necessity to craft items, simply because travel isn't easy when you have a DM with LOTS of random encounter charts, and there's distance involved.
It's just lack of system experience that leads GMs to do this. It's not malicious.
I don't think it is intended to be but I do think that lack of experience mixed with the attitudes new players acquire about the system being fresh to the whole thing can easily breed feelings of resentment, or at the very least anxiety, and that can easily lead to being malicious even though that wasn't your goal.
I'm not very familiar with D&D adventures except with what I've been told and that's basically limited to the Temple of Elemental Evil with comments equating to "you split the party, you die." I can't see quite the same amount of viciousness in a Paizo AP. It's certainly possible. A lone scout type person goes into the room with the BBEG and splat he goes, perfect. But, generally speaking in the vast majority of cases you can disengage enemies or keep safe while you retreat. If you're a sorc/wiz your friends are just a dimension door away.
To wax a bit "emo" it kind of makes me sad people call crafting broken. It's like they just see the numbers and give up so their only reaction is essentially flip tables.
Even magic shops have a built-in balance. There are only a couple d4 worth items per category (minor, medium, greater). Then, it's the base price of the city for a 75% chance. Then, you gotta be putting in some custom orders.
It's just lack of system experience that leads GMs to do this. It's not malicious.I don't think it is intended to be but I do think that lack of experience mixed with the attitudes new players acquire about the system being fresh to the whole thing can easily breed feelings of resentment, or at the very least anxiety, and that can easily lead to being malicious even though that wasn't your goal.
I'm not very familiar with D&D adventures except with what I've been told and that's basically limited to the Temple of Elemental Evil with comments equating to "you split the party, you die." I can't see quite the same amount of viciousness in a Paizo AP. It's certainly possible. A lone scout type person goes into the room with the BBEG and splat he goes, perfect. But, generally speaking in the vast majority of cases you can disengage enemies or keep safe while you retreat. If you're a sorc/wiz your friends are just a dimension door away.
To wax a bit "emo" it kind of makes me sad people call crafting broken. It's like they just see the numbers and give up so their only reaction is essentially flip tables.
Even magic shops have a built-in balance. There are only a couple d4 worth items per category (minor, medium, greater). Then, it's the base price of the city for a 75% chance. Then, you gotta be putting in some custom orders.
I love the state of the current Pathfinder game. I think it's the best table top RPG ever developed to date. I think everything about it works great except for a few rare exceptions, that need nerfs not yet handed out because of design oversights. (synthesist summoners triple stat dumping, the 20HD homunculus familiared beast bonded witch who dies on purpose, etc)
I think item crafting, if you don't allow custom items and don't allow 'taking ten,' is also almost right, with a couple notable item exceptions. The custom item crafting rules are fantastically "breakable" if the GM isn't watching it like a hawk. "I craft a holy avenger that's only wieldable by paladins and also only wieldable by half elves, and then I make it intelligent, have the ability to identify my enemies with 60ft sightless awareness, and give it Farie Fire x3/d, all for cheaper than a normal holy avenger costs."
I've played Temple of Elemental Evil and it's not all that. There's plenty of high level Paizo stuff that's just as deadly. The only major softening that Paizo did with their system compared to 3e was made it so dying wasn't a permanent ding to your character. (in old D&D you were a level behind no matter what)
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I suspect the point was that he was probably seldom playing the crafter and felt robbed of time his character would have been doing his own thing.And? did you expect to roleplay every second of the crafting process? I am a great, big nerd who has been playing since 1981, but even I think playing out in dramatic fashion the details of several days of fine magical crafting is going too far.Second, start by asking what the other players are going to do while this [player] is crafting for all that time.We never use the crafting rules, but I'd be curious how those that do answer this question. Does everyone sit around 'carousing' while the crafters do their thing? It seems like an obvious time for the non-crafters to go and earn more money or more experience points, but people seem averse to the idea of differing experience levels within a party and if the non-crafters go out and earn more loot, it takes away a significant part of the benefit of the crafting feats.
How does it generally work?
I hated what my old DM used to do.
"Okay lads, who's crafting?"
"Alright that costs X amount so mark it off your sheet"
"Okay, X number of days pass so on to the next encounter. "
The days were basically waved away in two minutes.
Well is the crafter being selfish and ONLY crafting for him/herself as SKR seems to think that crafting should work, or does s/he craft for the rest of the party as well? If they are crafting for the rest of the party, complaining that a crafter is using their time to make stuff for you and your getting robbed of your time is a mite shallow. The crafter is spending his/her resources in feats to do you and the rest of the party a favor so should they be robbed even MORE of game time to use their feat? Now if the crafter IS being selfish like SKR seems to think and does not craft for anyone else...then yes I can see giving everyone else the extra face time to do extra stuff.
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Well is the crafter being selfish and ONLY crafting for him/herself as SKR seems to think that crafting should work, or does s/he craft for the rest of the party as well? If they are crafting for the rest of the party, complaining that a crafter is using their time to make stuff for you and your getting robbed of your time is a mite shallow. The crafter is spending his/her resources in feats to do you and the rest of the party a favor so should they be robbed even MORE of game time to use their feat? Now if the crafter IS being selfish like SKR seems to think and does not craft for anyone else...then yes I can see giving everyone else the extra face time to do extra stuff.
Whether they crafter is making stuff for only himself or for the whole parter, he is getting the OPTION of what his character is doing for that time period. Seemingly, the non-crafters are NOT getting any option...if crafting is going on, they are GM mandated to be contemplating their own naval lint.
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Well is the crafter being selfish and ONLY crafting for him/herself as SKR seems to think that crafting should work, or does s/he craft for the rest of the party as well? If they are crafting for the rest of the party, complaining that a crafter is using their time to make stuff for you and your getting robbed of your time is a mite shallow. The crafter is spending his/her resources in feats to do you and the rest of the party a favor so should they be robbed even MORE of game time to use their feat? Now if the crafter IS being selfish like SKR seems to think and does not craft for anyone else...then yes I can see giving everyone else the extra face time to do extra stuff.Whether they crafter is making stuff for only himself or for the whole parter, he is getting the OPTION of what his character is doing for that time period. Seemingly, the non-crafters are NOT getting any option...if crafting is going on, they are GM mandated to be contemplating their own naval lint.
I'm not talking about in game, I am talking about out of game issue here. Out of game, if your doing player X a favor by making him the awesome sword he wants with your craft feats and then they b$+*& about how they can't go off and do some awesome adventure in the time your spending for THEM, how the heck would you feel as the crafter player? Seriously, that is being a jerk...and rule 1...don't play with jerks.
In game, the non crafter can be hand waved as running errands for the crafter friend who is doing them a solid by making them something for COST. I would assume your generally nice to a friend who is doing you a favor yes?
So, I have a friend that the few times I've played with him, he micromanages the Wealth by Level rules. Not only that, but he fully beieves 100% that it should be the market value for crafters, not the cost to make it that is figured. When I recently posted the FAQ entry on this on my Facebook page, sure enough he replied with a rant on it...
Still the problem with this is that a crafter would still possess almost double the actual value of equipment than other party members. The value of having an item creation feat is that you can craft what you want instead of just getting luck of the draw that the party treasure "drops" would be. Unless you have one of those DMs that ignore the fact not every shop has every single item in the treasure tables to buy. This also ignores what if your crafter is actually nice enough to craft for other party members and not greedy just to craft for themselves.
<Insulting comment to Paizo staff removed by AbsolutGrndZer0> Since over 50% of your equipment and "Gold value" is a characters power level. Even using the "Only spend so much on type X" (armor as their example) that crafter will end up much more powerful than any non-crafter as the actual value of your items is their Price not their cost.
Contrary to what many people think, I don't believe that being over WBL is such a huge power boost. My studies indicate that this is rarely the case. Instead the opposite is more true. Having an over abundance of wealth rarely overpowers, but having significantly less can quickly underpower.
So, what do you all think? Agree with Paizo's FAQ, or agree with my friend?
Also, would this be enough for you to just not play with him?
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Contrary to what many people think, I don't believe that being over WBL is such a huge power boost. My studies indicate that this is rarely the case. Instead the opposite is more true. Having an over abundance of wealth rarely overpowers, but having significantly less can quickly underpower.
So, what do you all think? Agree with Paizo's FAQ, or agree with my friend?
Also, would this be enough for you to just not play with him?
Being a bit over...not a big deal (under 150% of WBL). Being a bit under (over 75% of WBL)...once again not a big deal. Outside those ranges...yeah we have a big deal...at least in my experience. The trouble is that with 3 feats (arms and armor, wondrous, rings) you can pretty much double your WBL unless DM adjusted for crafting...which is definitely in the big deal category.
I agree with the FAQ. Getting a custom magic item isn't new without the feat. You can place an order in the vast majority of cities. Saving money while doing so IS new to the feat and is the point. People say SKR "made a bad call" but they seem to completely ignore the fact the entire design team comes to consensus on each and every FAQ. It's not an SKR call, it's a Paizo call no matter whose name is on the entry and in that entry it says if you DON'T do that you're not letting your players really benefit from the feat. That's a message from Paizo, not Sean.
That said I wouldn't not play with someone who disagrees with the FAQ. I wouldn't be a crafter in their games, however.
Being a bit over...not a big deal (under 150% of WBL). Being a bit under (over 75% of WBL)...once again not a big deal. Outside those ranges...yeah we have a big deal...at least in my experience. The trouble is that with 3 feats (arms and armor, wondrous, rings) you can pretty much double your WBL unless DM adjusted for crafting...which is definitely in the big deal category.
The issue I have with examples like this is that this assumes the crafter is personally making every single piece of gear he wears. Unless your party has years worth of down time between levels this simply isn't possible and creates a scenario pretty laughable, really.
simply put are you spoiled for choices as DMs? Life is too short for bad gaming.
I disagree with your GM nerfing crafting but simply put just don't make a crafter character.