| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, one of our players turned GM is allowing me to use Arcane Thesis from 3.5, as a sort of thanks for GMing for her for all these years.
For those of you who haven't seen the feat, here it is:
Arcane Thesis
Benefit: Choose one arcane spell that you can cast to be your
thesis spell. When casting that spell, you do so at +2 caster level.
When you apply a metamagic feat other than Heighten Spell
to that spell, the enhanced spell uses up a spell slot one level
lower than normal. For example, an empowered thesis spell
uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual slot
(rather than the normal two levels higher).
I'll get Arcane Thesis at level 5, and I'm currently at level 3.
If you thought it was broken in 3.5, well now you can reduce metamagic costs further with Magical Lineage, cast the chosen spell spontaneously with Greater Spell Specialization or Preferred Spell, apply fun new metamagic like dazing or rime, and someday Arcane Thesis will horrendously stack with Spell Perfection. (As I read it, Arcane Thesis even reduces the level of the free metamagic you apply with Spell Perfection)
I'll be a fireball-wielding admixture evoker, so I can adapt the damage type to the most effective element. Between spell specialization and arcane thesis, fireball will already do 10d6 damage at level 6. It also has +4 caster level to overcome SR right there, and I'll be taking SP, GSP, and Spell Perfection will double those bonuses someday.
As a homebrew rule, I'll be able to research metamagic feats for 5k, and our GM is very generous with loot. We already have ~9k after just hitting level 3. This means intensify, rime, selective, focused, piercing, persistent, dazing, widen (homebrew'd to only a +2 adjustment), quicken, and eventually much more.
There are a few more quirks, but that's more or less the gist of the build.
Now, being courteous and not wanting to cause grief to my new GM and fellow players, I was thinking of imposing certain limits on myself as to when I actually cast this spell. The nice thing is that I never have to prepare the spell since I can cast it spontaneously, so I can prepare spells like normal and only use it as a backup. Realistically, I invested all of these resources into making this neat trick, so I will use it sometimes.
So has anyone had success with imposing limits on yourself for the sake of letting the rest of the party shine/giving your GM a break? Or a limit to fit your character's personality? Help coming up with a good guideline for when to use it would be much appreciated!
Perhaps ironically, my character is not a bloodthirsty pyromaniac, but something of a pacifist, or at least not wanting to kill people and wants to avoid collateral damage. I actually was given a homebrew trait that lets me change a chosen spell into a merciful spell.
My first thought was to only use it after someone in the party took a serious hit, but then I thought this would be a bad idea, because if an enemy is close enough to land such a blow, then there will probably be some friendly fire. :/
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Arcane Thesis is powerful, but even more fun, flavorful. It's your thesis. A subject of intense study, a spell that you've spent a great amount of personal effort into understanding and mastering. It's more than a party trick; it's practically your reason for being. What did your character go through to achieve this? Is it just a free ability, or is at a Dark and Terrible Ultimate Power?
If you're looking to restrict yourself, that's wonderful of you; it shows a lot of consideration for your fellows and indicates that you can be trusted with that power. But don't short-change yourself. [RobinWilliams]You've got some power in your corner now, some heavy ammunition in your camp![/RobinWilliams] Don't be afraid to milk it for all the roleplaying mileage you can get out of it. This is your Spirit Bomb, your Dragon of the Darkness Flame. It's special, and you already plan to reserve it for special occasions, so make it epic!
Add some crazy awesome backstory to support it. Maybe your character undertakes a personal quest that happens off-stage for awhile, or maybe the GM can work it into the current game. Given that you still have a couple of levels until you qualify for it, there's time to plan for it. Secret, lost tomes of ultimate power? Divine favor granted personally by the god of magic? Forgotten magical birthright unlocked in a moment of great stress? Fight to the death with the Balrog of Moria? There so much potential here!
Thanks for the encouragement. ;3 Honestly, I wish I could lower the damage output of fireball. More than damage, I want to have my thesis capable of doing whatever I want! Want a debuff? Entangle with Rime Spell. Want battlefield control? Lingering Spell. Want to shut opponents down? Dazing spell!
The campaign is modeled after an old anime, Slayers, which is already kind of a spoof off of d&d. My character is the grandson of one of the 5 great sages, Shazard Lugandy, so arcane power is in the blood and that could be fun to play up. And some plot point that leads me to the discovery of Arcane Thesis also sounds interesting; I should talk that over with my GM.
I may have a chance to lower damage output, increase versatility AND have it fit within the context of Slayers! In the show, the main character sometimes "Breaks" her spell into smaller pieces to hit multiple targets. So a homebrew Break Spell metamagic could break fireball into multiple weaker fireballs. I can imagine setting up a lingering break fireball wall. xD
Let me make sure I understand you. You can research metamagic feats for 5k. Does that mean you pay 5k to learn the feat? Do you not have to actually spend a feat to learn them? If so, combined with arcane thesis, magical lineage, and spontaneous casting through preferred spell, I don't know if I'd be able to control myself. Lol. I hope your party mates are reasonably optimized...
Now then, I'm definitely all about self imposed limits. I cant help optimizing (in a practical sense anyway, as in i don't build glass cannons and favor versatility, but my characters are always very effective), and play with several guys who often are pretty far from anything I would call optimized. So I understand where you're coming from. I'd suggest a couple of things.
You'll do solid enough damage with the CL boosts to make the blast meaningful. You can always add intensify and empowered, and even maximized situationally if you need more damage. Being able to adjust the metamagic costs will help tremendously with that. And you can still use rods to further augment it.
Don't know if you had considered the standard blaster dip into crossblooded sorcerer (for +2 damage per die) or not but with all of this on the table, i'd resist that option. Especially if you play with non optimizers. If you don't you'll end up one shotting everything, and thats no fun for anyone. I am playing something similar (without AT or free metamagic) and had to tone it down for the good of the group. I went from +2 to +1 damage per die, which has still been solid. If you DO decide you need more damage, that dip might still be an okay option, but I doubt you'll need it (and I'd hold off awhile to see if its needed in real play). IMO the dip probably isn't worth it for an evoker if you only get +1 per die (my guy is a conjurer so I got that plus energy admixture to cold out of the deal, which has been very useful but you already have that ability).
Otherwise, I'd focus more on control and less on damage, especially early in fights. Admixture to cold and add rime, tack on dazing, maybe even lingering. Alter the battlefield and debuff the enemies. Sure there will be some damage as well, but it wont be obscene if you dont use the damage boosting metamagics all the time. That will give your party time to shine as well, and they will likely still appreciate the ability to beat down weakened foes, and bull rush them back into that lingering fireball. You contribute, they still have fun.
And when you have to save the day, you can always pull out your intensified, empowered, maximized thermonuclear damage option, ideally with selective tagged on, since waiting to use the big guns means melee logjams have already been established. Maybe add merciful if you want to take prisoners.
TL;DR - as long as you open with control (even if that control is via fireball), rather than damage capable of one shotting the field, everything should be ok. Cast some normal BFC spells too...and some buffs. Establish the playing field to your liking, buff your team into killing machines, and THEN drop your damage bomb only when you need to
Thanks for the encouragement. ;3 Honestly, I wish I could lower the damage output of fireball. More than damage, I want to have my thesis capable of doing whatever I want! Want a debuff? Entangle with Rime Spell. Want battlefield control? Lingering Spell. Want to shut opponents down? Dazing spell!
The campaign is modeled after an old anime, Slayers, which is already kind of a spoof off of d&d. My character is the grandson of one of the 5 great sages, Shazard Lugandy, so arcane power is in the blood and that could be fun to play up. And some plot point that leads me to the discovery of Arcane Thesis also sounds interesting; I should talk that over with my GM.
I may have a chance to lower damage output, increase versatility AND have it fit within the context of Slayers! In the show, the main character sometimes "Breaks" her spell into smaller pieces to hit multiple targets. So a homebrew Break Spell metamagic could break fireball into multiple weaker fireballs. I can imagine setting up a lingering break fireball wall. xD
It sounds like you're already planning on doing everything I suggested.
I wouldn't worry about the damage if you are not planning on taking the crossblooded sorcerer dip.
Yep, you understood correctly; I can pay 5k to learn any metamagic and it doesn't cost me a feat. O_o
Stats at level 1
Str 6
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 21
Wis 14
Cha 10
Traits: Magical Lineage and homebrew campaign trait
Wizard (Instead of Scribe Scroll) Spell Focus (Evocation)
Human Spell Specialization
1 Improved Initiative
3 Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)
5 Greater Spell Specialization
Wizard Arcane Thesis
7 Leadership (For a wizard cohort with all of the crafting feats)
9 Additional Traits (Reactionary and maybe Wayang Spell Hunter, if it isn't too cheesy. >_>)
10 Fast Study
11 Spell Penetration
13 Greater Spell Penetration
15 Spell Perfection
Wizard Opposition Research
...and drop 5k whenever I want to learn a metamagic.
Man, all these ideas are making me even more excited to play this character! Just focus on control metamagic, and maybe create some control-ish metamagic of my own. (That's what metamagic research rule was in part intended for; make your own!)
And switch to blast mode with intensified, empowered and maximized if the situation really calls for it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Alright, a homebrew feat with a subfeat have been developed! I can get both for 5k.
Benefit: You may apply this metamagic only to a fireball spell:
You can break a spell, as if casting a weaker version multiple times.
A creature does not take any additional damage or suffer any effects beyond the first effect if an area is hit by more than one part of the Break Spell.
This feat has two modes:
Break - Break Spell splits into 2 mini spells or 6 micro spells of this spell. A Break Spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than it's actual level.
Big Break - Big Break Spell splits into 4 mini spells or 12 micro spells of this spell. A Big Break Spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than it's actual level.
These mini and micro spells are as described in Micro/Mini Spell, except are treated as a 3rd level spells and have a range of long.
Benefit: You may apply either form of this metamagic only to a fireball spell:
A micro spell is treated as a 1st level spell for all purposes, has a reduced range of close, a reduced radius of 5ft, and all variable damage becomes the minimum amount. (Ex. 6d6 becomes 6 damage) A micro spell uses up a spell slot two levels than the spell’s actual level.
A mini spell is treated as a 2nd level spell for all purposes, has a reduced range of medium, a reduced radius of 10ft, and all variable damage becomes 2. (Ex. 7d6 becomes 14 damage) A mini spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than the spell’s actual level.
Special: Micro/mini spell is not treated as a metamagic for the purpose of abilties that would reduce a spell’s slot when metamagic is applied, such as Magical Lineage.
May do a little more tweaking, but there you have it! Low damage, but massive flexibility and fun to be had when combining with other metamagic.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So has anyone had success with imposing limits on yourself for the sake of letting the rest of the party shine/giving your GM a break? Or a limit to fit your character's personality?
I'm very much a fan of players holding back on their system mastery in order to avoid overshadowing less experienced players. It lets me challenge the party with the knowledge that if things go south, the team has an ace in the hole they can use to turn the tide. I'd say it takes even MORE system mastery to pull off than just crushing encounters the entire time.
I'm very much a fan of players holding back on their system mastery in order to avoid overshadowing less experienced players. It lets me challenge the party with the knowledge that if things go south, the team has an ace in the hole they can use to turn the tide. I'd say it takes even MORE system mastery to pull off than just crushing encounters the entire time.
Agreed. Such a character/player is always welcome in a group IME. The players love it because they get to do their part, and still feel confident they can defeat encounters reliably, because they DO defeat them reliably. The GM loves it because, as you said, it provides some room for error. As long as the player in question doesn't make it obvious he is holding back, or tries to rub it in in any way, things tend to work out well.
Its sort of a more evolved form of the min maxer IMO. Theoretical optimization via hardcore minmaxiing tends to create extremely effective characters at what they are designed to do, but tend to cause more harm than good because they screw up the GM's ability to provide an appropriate challenge, they overshadow the other players, and they atend to be notoriously fragile to boot and can end up draining party resources when they DON'T get to do what they are best at all the time.
The guy who builds a versatile powerhouse who can excel in a couple of different ways only helps, as discussed above, doesn't overshadow his mates, doesn't screw up CR, and isn't likely to bite it to a stiffbreeze. But he can still consistently contribute to a variety of challenges, and still tends to have that ace up his sleeve for when things get ugly.
Gross nerdy analogy incoming: the paper tiger minmaxed builds are like Ebola. Incredibly effective at what they do (kill stuff), but ultimitely TOO effective. Ebola ultimitely sucks at being a virus because it kills hosts too quickly, they dont have time to get to surrounding villiages to spread the infection, so the virus dies right along side the hosts. Rookie mistake. Team player practical optimizers are more like Influenza, which can still kill the heck out of you, but it slow plays things. It gets to spread and evolve, to do as much damage as possible over a much larger area and number of people. And its so highly adaptable that taking it out is really hard to do (we basically have to guess to get the flu vaccine right in a given year). Be the Flu, not Ebola.
Alright, a homebrew feat with a subfeat have been developed! I can get both for 5k.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
May do a little more tweaking, but there you have it! Low damage, but massive flexibility and fun to be had when combining with other metamagic.
Those sound pretty fun to use for control purposes. Kinda like smart bombs ;-)
Based on what you wrote in this and the other thread (42pt buy, no PC deaths, wealth, rerolls, etc.) it sounds like you haven't been playing "by the numbers" for years now. If your group has been able to deal with all of those things, why would this particular combo be so different then what can be pulled off using other character concepts? For example, direct damage (especially fire damage with a reflex save) is generally far less nasty then Hold, Dominate, Flesh to Stone, Blindness, etc.
As for intentionally limiting your power, I find that it takes an agreement up-front with the GM and other players. The more defined and understood the better. Otherwise, a player is going to feel betrayed when they have been deliberately holding back, only to be killed when the GM decides to throw in a more challenging encounter.
Reminds me of a campaign I played in years ago as a mid-high level wizard. In addition to 3.5 glitterdust, our group kind of stopped using the feeblemind spell as we felt it was a little too vicious. Sure enough, my wizard gets feebleminded by an opponent the GM wanted to be really nasty. Because of things like this, I felt that it was best to give the players a specific limited set of tools (feats, spells, classes, etc.) that they can use however they please, rather then giving them ALL the tools, but saying, "don't build anything too powerful with these."
Based on what you wrote in this and the other thread (42pt buy, no PC deaths, wealth, rerolls, etc.) it sounds like you haven't been playing "by the numbers" for years now. If your group has been able to deal with all of those things, why would this particular combo be so different then what can be pulled off using other character concepts? For example, direct damage (especially fire damage with a reflex save) is generally far less nasty then Hold, Dominate, Flesh to Stone, Blindness, etc.
Yeah, our group has generous power available to us, but rarely do our players make good use of it. I'd say there's only one other optimizer/strategist in the group and the rest have strong characters, (they have a concept, we sometimes help them do that concept better) but they don't push any limits on what people might call "broken."
When my fireball can overcome any SR with ease, can change to whatever element I want, can get a very high save, and can be focused, selective, piercing, intensified, persistent and dazing all with a 5th level spell? (Or a 3rd level spell if you have Spell Perfection) Yeah, that could be cause for concern if thrown at the start of every fight.
If all our players were min/max-ers who made threads in this forum asking for tips on how to make their character more broken, then sure, I'd have no qualms going all out. But our group isn't like that.
As for intentionally limiting your power, I find that it takes an agreement up-front with the GM and other players. The more defined and understood the better. Otherwise, a player is going to feel betrayed when they have been deliberately holding back, only to be killed when the GM decides to throw in a more challenging encounter.
Reminds me of a campaign I played in years ago as a mid-high level wizard. In addition to 3.5 glitterdust, our group kind of stopped using the feeblemind spell as we felt it was a little too vicious. Sure enough, my wizard gets feebleminded by an opponent the GM wanted to be really nasty. Because of things like this, I felt that it was best to give the players a specific limited set of tools (feats, spells, classes, etc.) that they can use however they please, rather then giving them ALL the tools, but saying, "don't build anything too powerful with these."
I chose to take Arcane Thesis, which my GM graciously allowed me to use, and now as a courtesy to the rest of the group and my GM, I'm taking time in considering how I'm going to use this gift. I don't want combat to become all about me. Thanks to a couple ideas in this thread, I think I've found some fun ways to contribute to combat without just ending it AND without it seeming like I'm holding back the whole time. (Thanks to metamagic like my homebrew Break Spell, and also metamagic like Lingering Spell and Rime Spell.)
Be the Flu, not Ebola.
I'll strive for that every day!
I played a game that was ran by a new GM. He gave out a few very powerful items to our low level characters. He was still not sure how to balance the items to the levels etc. I spoke to the two other players durring our pizza break. We all agreed to limit our use of these items or in one case not to use it at all.
Some time later as the GM grew in undestanding of the game, he realized what we had done. He thanked us all and we "traded" in the artifacts for lesser items. The game was a lot of fun and the self limiting helped us grow as a group.
Having Played both a God Wizard and the Invincible Alchemist Mega Bomber I self limit reactively during combats and non-combat challenges.
for example as a god wizard its very easy to bypass non-combat challenges so as a rule I'd give others in the group a chance to come up with a non magic solution first before I jumped in with a spell to get around the problem.
As as a god wizard even though I could lock down 2/3 of a fight I didn't always to allow others in the group a chance to mark thier mark on the combat, I considered myself the groups ace in the hole if things were getting bad or we need a quick end to a fight then I'd pull out the broken stuff to get the job done quick.
For the Mega Bomber Alchemist who could throw a bajillion bombs per round and kill anything I relegated myself to using 1-3 at most per round often spread around the damage to soften up and debuff multiple targets to let others in the group take the glory. because honestly many of the fights I could have solo'd.
When you know how to make characters that punch far above their level you need to be mindful of the fact and make sure you give other people in the group their screen time as well. being awesome all the time is boring for everyone.
I played a game that was ran by a new GM. He gave out a few very powerful items to our low level characters. He was still not sure how to balance the items to the levels etc. I spoke to the two other players durring our pizza break. We all agreed to limit our use of these items or in one case not to use it at all.
Some time later as the GM grew in undestanding of the game, he realized what we had done. He thanked us all and we "traded" in the artifacts for lesser items. The game was a lot of fun and the self limiting helped us grow as a group.
That sounds like a great group you have there, where the players are concerned whether the GM is having fun and vice versa.
I'm sometimes a little concerned about how our group's original GM treats one of our new GMs. (Not the GM of the campaign this thread is about, but another one) Besides me, he collaborated with the rest of the group so everyone had darkvision (All Aasimars and a min/max'd human synthesist) and spams darkness every round to blind the GM while the players can still see. Now I'm the elf who can't see in the dark. :P
Well it might not be meant as mean, but sheesh, take it easy on the poor guy. Not only is our new GM new to GMing, he's new to the group; while the rest of us have been playing for 5 years and known each other for even longer, our new GM joined us only about a year ago.
Yeah, I've had that happen. My GM's group gamed together for decades, and the two of us traded places. He coordinated the group's character creation and built a really effective party.
I learned a lot running that game >.>
Having Played both a God Wizard and the Invincible Alchemist Mega Bomber I self limit reactively during combats and non-combat challenges.
for example as a god wizard its very easy to bypass non-combat challenges so as a rule I'd give others in the group a chance to come up with a non magic solution first before I jumped in with a spell to get around the problem.
As as a god wizard even though I could lock down 2/3 of a fight I didn't always to allow others in the group a chance to mark thier mark on the combat, I considered myself the groups ace in the hole if things were getting bad or we need a quick end to a fight then I'd pull out the broken stuff to get the job done quick.
For the Mega Bomber Alchemist who could throw a bajillion bombs per round and kill anything I relegated myself to using 1-3 at most per round often spread around the damage to soften up and debuff multiple targets to let others in the group take the glory. because honestly many of the fights I could have solo'd.
When you know how to make characters that punch far above their level you need to be mindful of the fact and make sure you give other people in the group their screen time as well. being awesome all the time is boring for everyone.
My wizard should be very good at solving out of combat problems, given a wizard cohort to help keep my spellbook full with a variety of spells, my ability to sacrifice unprepared spell slots to spontaneously cast spells* means I can easily leave slots open without worry of being caught unprepared for combat, and I'll eventually gain Fast Study for very much on the fly solutions.
So it's a solid point on the God wizard perhaps being too good with out of combat problems. I'll be mindful to wait until other options are exhausted before solving everything for the party.
...and I hear you on the alchemist. I've never played an alchemist, but my beleaguered GM I mentioned in my previous post wanted to play an gnome alchemist in another campaign, so I helped make one for him. Good gravy, going through my usual course of optimization, figuring out just how many bombs you could get per day, how much damage they could deal, and how many you could throw per round... Yeah, they've got a nova option like nobody's business.
I put self-imposed limits on most of my characters. To me it's kind of like flavor text, it doesn't need to be there but it makes it a bit more fun.
Example: I love playing barbarians(in addition to wizards and sorcerers) and I'll generally set triggers for raging. Instead of just going, "oh if i rage i get stronger and kill him", I'll set usually around three triggers. One of them almost always being reduced to half my max total hit points.
Self imposed limits can be incredibly fun and rewarding from a storytelling perspective. A few examples of how you might accomplish this mechanically:
Give yourself a consistent -2 or -4 attack penalty. Drop it when dramatically appropriate.
Have the ability to Rage, Challenge, Smite or otherwise become more often than normal? Don't use it. Hold it back until something has pissed you off so bad that they deserve the hell you're about to bring them.
Have big bonuses with a specific weapon? Don't use it. Other things will work well enough most of the time. Save the special weapon for a special occasion.
Ooh, that's a good idea; I was thinking of asking my GM whether I could use a preparation ritual in my spellbook from UM, Harmful Surge.
Seems like the perfect ability to only use in a moment of desperation.
And add on empower and intensify for good measure! Those also seem great to keep in my back pocket for dramatic situations. Technically, with arcane thesis, it would make sense to add intensify every time I cast fireball, but I don't think I will, just like the barbarian who holds back his rage for something rage-worthy. :3
So has anyone had success with imposing limits on yourself for the sake of letting the rest of the party shine/giving your GM a break? Or a limit to fit your character's personality? Help coming up with a good guideline for when to use it would be much appreciated!
Yes and no, sort of, and maybe. Most of my characters aren't going to outshine the rest of the party if the rest of the party is being pro-active. I generally enjoy playing spellcasters like wizards and it's more productive for myself if I let the other PCs do what they can before I step in (I may keep a scroll of knock handy, but any door that can be opened without using it is a door I won't use it on).
My characters are self-limited in countless ways outside of the mechanics however. This is virtually entirely a matter of fitting my character's personality. See, I try to have most of my characters act like real people. Strange as though it might sound, that generally means having mercy on enemies, not starting conflicts if possible, not stealing everything not nailed down, and so forth. By it's nature, choosing not to do something is a self-imposed limitation. As a fighter, as long as I had no repercussions from an authority (such as the law), I could cut down every NPC weaker than myself for the XP or the lulz. I don't, because that is not the character I want to play.
So has anyone had success with imposing limits on yourself for the sake of letting the rest of the party shine/giving your GM a break? Or a limit to fit your character's personality? Help coming up with a good guideline for when to use it would be much appreciated!Yes and no, sort of, and maybe. Most of my characters aren't going to outshine the rest of the party if the rest of the party is being pro-active. I generally enjoy playing spellcasters like wizards and it's more productive for myself if I let the other PCs do what they can before I step in (I may keep a scroll of knock handy, but any door that can be opened without using it is a door I won't use it on).
My characters are self-limited in countless ways outside of the mechanics however. This is virtually entirely a matter of fitting my character's personality. See, I try to have most of my characters act like real people. Strange as though it might sound, that generally means having mercy on enemies, not starting conflicts if possible, not stealing everything not nailed down, and so forth. By it's nature, choosing not to do something is a self-imposed limitation. As a fighter, as long as I had no repercussions from an authority (such as the law), I could cut down every NPC weaker than myself for the XP or the lulz. I don't, because that is not the character I want to play.
Oh, definitely. I'd almost call it selfish, but situations like this come up all the time:
"Eh, I could end this combat now by casting a powerful spell, but my friends can do it within a round or so, so I'll just cast a cantrip or whatever instead."
That sort of limitation is just good resource management, with maybe some added virtue for not caring who gets the glory.
And your other point seems to be about the dull, decent thing to do. We're no group of paladins, but our characters do have a sense of morality. Whether the players are concerned about dubious actions resulting in repercussions from the GM, or they roleplay that their character actually cares about such things, we do the right thing. Case in point:
Our group entered a 10 vs 10 competition and we teamed up with some NPCs to win the prize of 10k gold. After we had won, one of our NPC allies contracted something that turned him into a ghoul. We had to kill him, but we gave the NPC's family the 1k gold that would have gone to him.
Are you dead set on using Fireball as your focused spell? Magic Missile makes a great low-damage, high-versatility metamagic carrier. Think Quickened Toppling Dazing MM for the low, low cost of a 4th level slot.
People have run the numbers on Toppling and it isn't terribly impressive. I think Ravingdork tried it and it never tripped anyone. Ever. :(
Dazing on magic missile seems kind of a waste; it will only daze them for 1 round, and this turns it into a will save, since magic missile doesn't have a save. An attractive thing about fireball is that it turns a spell with a reflex save into something of a save or die. Failing a reflex save usually only means extra damage, but this makes it deadly. I think someone ran the numbers and said, on average, the lowest saving throw in the game is reflex.
And I think the spell slot is slightly off?
1 (Magic Missile) +4 +3 +1 (Metamagic) -3 (Arcane Thesis) - 1 (Magical Lineage)
So... 5th level slot.
...and finally, fireball has been "my spell" over years past, and I'm trying to make a point out of doing something cool with it. (Take a look at my "Break Spell" homebrew feat I posted earlier) In my very first campaign, I made an arcane thesis fireball wizard. (Ah, 3.5 and its brokenness) I wasn't very restrained back then and at least 1 of my friends was unhappy from me hogging all the glory, so arcane thesis on this character with fireball is also something of a test for myself to see if I can't be a better player when working with the same conditions. (heck, even worse now with magical lineage)
EDIT: Oh, and I don't want it to be low damage ALL the time. Just most of the time. At key points when it makes sense to go all out, I intend to do so!
Well, I'm under the impression that the game imposes enough limits on you already so why help it out? But, I recall a passage from a game (can't remember which) which discussed the differences between "good" magi and "evil" magi. It went something like this;
'Good wizards hold themselves back. They possess the power to bend reality to their will, but they exhibit care and caution to avoid harming innocents nearby. As a result, their fireballs tend to be not as explosive; their lightnings more direct. But when a wizard loses that caution, when they no longer care about the safety of those nearby, their true and terrible power is fully unleashed.'
If you want the system to mechanically reflect this, maybe a houserule that so long as you maintain a 'Good' alignment, all your spells have -2 damage but +2 to hit or save DC and while 'Evil' you invert them (+2 dam, -2 hit/save).
Hrmm, doesn't seem very balanced. Being good would be gamebreaking, since your DCs would be all the higher, especially with things like a Dazing Fireball.
I think I'll leave alignment out of how spells manifest and have good or evil only determine how the spell is used. (Burn down the village? Or save the village from menacing monsters?)
Oh, definitely. I'd almost call it selfish, but situations like this come up all the time:
"Eh, I could end this combat now by casting a powerful spell, but my friends can do it within a round or so, so I'll just cast a cantrip or whatever instead."
That sort of limitation is just good resource management, with maybe some added virtue for not caring who gets the glory.
This is mostly why I said "yes, no, maybe" in my post. It depends on how you view it and I don't particularly consider myself self-limiting but others might. I've met those who believe if you have knock then you're only holding back by not using it at every opportunity, probably just for the rogue's sake (of course such activity tends to be really dumb in my opinion since spell slots and/or scrolls aren't to be flushed opening random diaries and stuff).
So yes, smart management is in a way a self-imposed limit. It's just one that sane people use all the time (you don't immediately spend all your money frivolously merely because you could). But it's probably not the sort of limits that some are expecting or may even view as limits.
And your other point seems to be about the dull, decent thing to do. We're no group of paladins, but our characters do have a sense of morality. Whether the players are concerned about dubious actions resulting in repercussions from the GM, or they roleplay that their character actually cares about such things, we do the right thing. Case in point:
Our group entered a 10 vs 10 competition and we teamed up with some NPCs to win the prize of 10k gold. After we had won, one of our NPC allies contracted something that turned him into a ghoul. We had to kill him, but we gave the NPC's family the 1k gold that would have gone to him.
Well, sort of. I'm mostly poking fun at the idea of self-imposed limits. See, by strict comparison, any time I did something that didn't somehow progress my character merely because I won't do so is an instance of self-limiting. Of course, this measure of self-limiting is by its nature just roleplaying or again just not being clinically insane. :P
This is mostly why I said "yes, no, maybe" in my post. It depends on how you view it and I don't particularly consider myself self-limiting but others might. I've met those who believe if you have knock then you're only holding back by not using it at every opportunity, probably just for the rogue's sake (of course such activity tends to be really dumb in my opinion since spell slots and/or scrolls aren't to be flushed opening random diaries and stuff).
So yes, smart management is in a way a self-imposed limit. It's just one that sane people use all the time (you don't immediately spend all your money frivolously merely because you could). But it's probably not the sort of limits that some are expecting or may even view as limits.
To be a wizard is to be a resource manager. Well, unless you're in a game that lets you rest and restore all spells after one or two encounters. ...which has been known to happen in my group. But I try to always keep something in reserve.
Well, sort of. I'm mostly poking fun at the idea of self-imposed limits. See, by strict comparison, any time I did something that didn't somehow progress my character merely because I won't do so is an instance of self-limiting. Of course, this measure of self-limiting is by its nature just roleplaying or again just not being clinically insane. :P
I have to admit, I chuckled at the prospect of outright killing all NPCs since they're EXP on legs. xD
Maybe it's a good thing we sort of abolished the EXP system. We pretty much just say, "Okay it's been two sessions since you last leveled up and I think you've gotten enough experience... Everyone level up." Without really counting anything.
Well, sort of. I'm mostly poking fun at the idea of self-imposed limits. See, by strict comparison, any time I did something that didn't somehow progress my character merely because I won't do so is an instance of self-limiting. Of course, this measure of self-limiting is by its nature just roleplaying or again just not being clinically insane. :PI have to admit, I chuckled at the prospect of outright killing all NPCs since they're EXP on legs. xD
Maybe it's a good thing we sort of abolished the EXP system. We pretty much just say, "Okay it's been two sessions since you last leveled up and I think you've gotten enough experience... Everyone level up." Without really counting anything.
Well, I dunno if I'll ever get rid of XP. I've always liked amassing XP points. It creates a sense of accomplishment to tally down the XPs after an adventure, and anxiously awaiting the next level. :P
And I don't actually know of anyone who would actually slaughter peasants for XP but I've heard horror stories from other non-d20 games. :P
Well, I dunno if I'll ever get rid of XP. I've always liked amassing XP points. It creates a sense of accomplishment to tally down the XPs after an adventure, and anxiously awaiting the next level. :P
And I don't actually know of anyone who would actually slaughter peasants for XP but I've heard horror stories from other non-d20 games. :P
Haha, I wouldn't recommend most of our homebrew ways of doing things. It just works for us, since we're lazy in a number of ways. For one, it means there's no leveling up in the middle of the session, which, although can be kind of exciting, can drain quite a bit of time.
*random aside* I absolutely adore your guide to adventure, Ashiel. Really gave me a lot of ideas on how I could do so many fun things, especially at low levels. I've started using nets, alchemical items, cure light wounds and lesser restoration scrolls and wands, a locket of heightened continual flame... ...and rope. Can't believe I didn't always carry rope.
*random aside* I absolutely adore your guide to adventure, Ashiel. Really gave me a lot of ideas on how I could do so many fun things, especially at low levels. I've started using nets, alchemical items, cure light wounds and lesser restoration scrolls and wands, a locket of heightened continual flame... ...and rope. Can't believe I didn't always carry rope.
Thank you very much Chort! I'm glad you enjoyed it. I need to do some updating in the book as well. Currently it and some other things are posted on my blog (Alvena Publishing) for download. My blog is mostly where I post about D&D/Pathfinder, with a fairly large emphasis on creativity, thinking about your world, and so forth. I'm also using it as a sort of directory for things like the adventuring guidebook so it's all easy to find from one place. :)
Hopefully in the near future I'll expand the adventuring guidebook as well. I want to expand it to include things like combat tactics, perhaps a mini-FAQ about skills, advice on how to pick good optional class features, advice on spell-selection, tips for managing resources, perhaps a small chapter about optimizing your roleplaying (avoiding falling into several writing pitfalls like making Mary Sue characters), possibly some sample builds, etc.
Anyway, thank you again. I'm glad you're enjoying it. ^-^
Haha, I wouldn't recommend most of our homebrew ways of doing things. It just works for us, since we're lazy in a number of ways. For one, it means there's no leveling up in the middle of the session, which, although can be kind of exciting, can drain quite a bit of time.
Understandable! On a side note, usually we pass XP out at the end of a session (or at least do leveling at the end of the session, or while we break for lunch in some cases).
One of the nice things about this game is how modular it is. If something can be improved for your group, you can. ^-^
Thanks for the encouragement. ;3 Honestly, I wish I could lower the damage output of fireball. More than damage, I want to have my thesis capable of doing whatever I want! Want a debuff? Entangle with Rime Spell. Want battlefield control? Lingering Spell. Want to shut opponents down? Dazing spell!
I don't have much in the way of advice for you that hasn't already been said, I just wanted to chime in (a bit late, admittedly) and note that I love this idea. One spell fits all! And Fireball is a great choice for it.
Fitting with this theme, as long as you're playing with 3rd ed stuff, I would see if your GM will let you get Sculpt Spell, found in Tome and Blood, and Complete Arcane. It does the following.
"You can modify an area spell by changing the area's shape. The new area must be chosen from the following list: cylinder (10-foot radius, 30 feet high), 40-foot cone, four 10-foot cubes, or a ball (20-foot-radius spread). The sculpted spell works normally in all respects except for its shape. For example, a lightning bolt spell whose area is changed to a ball deals the same amount of damage, but the lightning ball affects a 20-foot-radius spread. A sculpted spell uses a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level."
This is a nice start for your proposed Break Spell homebrew feat.
Thanks for the encouragement. ;3 Honestly, I wish I could lower the damage output of fireball. More than damage, I want to have my thesis capable of doing whatever I want! Want a debuff? Entangle with Rime Spell. Want battlefield control? Lingering Spell. Want to shut opponents down? Dazing spell!I don't have much in the way of advice for you that hasn't already been said, I just wanted to chime in (a bit late, admittedly) and note that I love this idea. One spell fits all! And Fireball is a great choice for it.
Fitting with this theme, as long as you're playing with 3rd ed stuff, I would see if your GM will let you get Sculpt Spell, found in Tome and Blood, and Complete Arcane. It does the following.
"You can modify an area spell by changing the area's shape. The new area must be chosen from the following list: cylinder (10-foot radius, 30 feet high), 40-foot cone, four 10-foot cubes, or a ball (20-foot-radius spread). The sculpted spell works normally in all respects except for its shape. For example, a lightning bolt spell whose area is changed to a ball deals the same amount of damage, but the lightning ball affects a 20-foot-radius spread. A sculpted spell uses a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level."
This is a nice start for your proposed Break Spell homebrew feat.
Mix my homebrew break spell with sculpt spell? That's kind of genius; I'll have to think about that. (Or mini/micro spell with sculpt spell...) I continued the discussion of homebrew metamagic in this thread, if you're interested: Wizards can have nice things! Spell-like metamagic?
I've made 3 more that my GM approves of; Elemental Augment, Storm, and Imbue. Really adds a lot of options in debuffing, battlefield control... and even buffing!