I want to confirm that at a level 2, a synthesist summoner with a biped eidolon
1) can take his free claw evolutions on his limbs (legs).
2) can take a slam attack for 1 evolution point
3) will reach the quota of 3 natural attacks with the natural attacks mentioned above.
Under this configuration,
1) can he do 3 attacks as part of a full round attack? At what penalties? Can he speak during the same round as he does this attack, or perform a knowledge check?
2) If he were to charge someone with a slam attack, would only 1x strMod be added to damage, rather than 1.5x strMod?
3) when fused, can the summoner used simple weapons like a long spear or crossbow normally? I understand that all natural weapons become secondary attacks while weapons are being wielded.
4) This just came to me, but can this synthesist summoner dual weild two shields and still use his claw attacks (legs) at full BAB?
1- he does that as a full attack. No penalties; speaking is a free action, so sure. Not sure about Knowledge checks.
2- 1x strMod I'm pretty sure.
3- If you've got the limbs, yes. IE get the Biped eidolon, stick your claws on your feet and pick up a spear. You can take your spear attacks at no penalty (if you have proficiency) and you get your claw attacks as secondary attacks. IE -5 to hit and 0.5x strength
4-He doesn't have a full BAB, but I get what you mean. Dual-wielding shields is possible sure but their shield bonuses won't stack and some wording on the shield bash feats means they'll both be counted as off-hand attacks. I'd recommend using the Eidolon's massive strength progression by picking up a big two-handed weapon and smashing enemies up. Spend a point on Bite later to get three natural attacks (2x claws, bite) in addition to your two-handed weapon attack.
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Are you seriously putting the claws on your feet just so you can get more attacks at 2nd level?
I want to confirm that at a level 2, a synthesist summoner with a biped eidolon
1) can take his free claw evolutions on his limbs (legs).
2) can take a slam attack for 1 evolution point
3) will reach the quota of 3 natural attacks with the natural attacks mentioned above.
I'd argue no - that the biped comes with claws on it's hands. You could put claws on his feat but it comes at the cost of an evolution point and you could change the claws to a slam which would cost an additional evolution point.
In the end you could get the same configuration - just need to spend two evolution points instead of one.
1) Three attacks yes, all with your full bonus. Yes you can speak and do knowledge as niether one is usually an action (it takes no time to 'know' something)
2) Slam is 1x str for edilions
3) Yes
4) Yes, dual wielding shields is an odd style but you can do it. Usually only fighters will even attempt it as it is very feat intensive. If you are serious about going this route there have been other threads about it if you want to research it. Note again that the summoner would need to use the evolution point to get claws on the feet.
I read through a discussion on the issue of whether one could stick the claws on your feat; a fellow raised a good argument for this: Velociraptor.
Also:
An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks ... This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once
So what your saying is
For the cost of 1 evolution point is it reasonable to change your attack profile from
claw claw 1d4 1d4
to
claw claw slam 1d4 1d4 1d8
Considering that for 1 evo point you could buy a bite and have
claw claw bite 1d4 1d4 1d6
and normally to have a claw claw slam it would cost you 3 evo points (2 for 2nd set of arms and 1 for slam)
Do you really think that a reasonable interpretation of the rules or are you just trying to milk your evo points for all they're worth ?
are you doing this for RP reasons or are you simply wanting a d8 instead of d6 for your third attack ?
Altenatively, assuming biped, you could pay 1 evolution point and change it to
claw claw claw claw 1d4 1d4 1d4 1d4
I think it is a reasonable interpretation of the rules.
I'd argue no - that the biped comes with claws on it's hands. You could put claws on his feat but it comes at the cost of an evolution point and you could change the claws to a slam which would cost an additional evolution point.
I agree with GM Arkwright. The Biped base form states you have Limbs (arms) and Limbs (legs), and Claws; but does not state the Claws are located on your arms.
Since Claws specifically state they can be located on Limbs (legs) (and the example of a Velociraptor is a good visual aid for how it could work) this seems to be doable for a Biped.
So, yeah, Biped with Claws on legs, then 1 pt to add a Slam, 3 natural attacks on a full attack (max for level 2).
With this configuration, all attacks at his full base attack (none of the attacks are described as being secondary). He could speak as a free action and making a Knowledge check is not an action.
Altenatively, assuming biped, you could pay 1 evolution point and change it to
claw claw claw claw 1d4 1d4 1d4 1d4
I think it is a reasonable interpretation of the rules.
except you have a maximum of 3 attacks at level 2 so your not allowed that combination
Oh, I forgot; my mistake, Phasics.
Are you seriously putting the claws on your feet just so you can get more attacks at 2nd level?
Do you really think that a reasonable interpretation of the rules or are you just trying to milk your evo points for all they're worth ?
are you doing this for RP reasons or are you simply wanting a d8 instead of d6 for your third attack ?
Essentially, yes to all questions, and I feel pretty good about it too. At the time of posting this thread, I was a sorcerer(1) synthesist(1) ninja(1), mostly for fun and RP reasons. Circumstances and personal play preferences meant that the party needed a tank, and taking synthesist(2) would net me +4 natural armor (natural progression + evo point), more HP, and BAB progression. And with an evo point to spare, I think it was reasonable and responsible to give up the climb evolution for more offense, which was another thing the party needed. So do I feel ashamed for optimizing after multiclassing 3 ways (and it'll be a 4rth when I take level 5 as an Oracle level 1)? No. I kinda feel like a champ.
And I think I did this in a fair and legal way that also fit my RP. My synthesist was based off of the Kamen Rider OOO S.I.C. action figure, specifically, the default "TaToBa" combo. The cool thing about Kamen Rider OOOs is that it could change to match just about any set of evolutions, while maintaining a consistent visual form. That's pretty attractive for a synthesist (player) who wants to maintain his self-image while potentially switching up evolutions. Bite, however, doesn't really fit with the form's style, while Slam does (with a few of them, actually). The fact that that's also marginally better than the bite options is just icing on the cake, and a reason for me to pat myself on the back.
fyi (just in case people need the info)
- Kamen Rider is a long running Japanese super-hero franchise, which translates to "Masked Rider."
- Kamen Rider OOO (O's) was a recent version who could mix and match various spiritual armors, kinda, I think, like a synthesized eidolon.
- S.I.C. is a line of "reinterpreted" action figures, and their version of OOOs is a bit more... Well, it let me feel justified bringing Kamen Rider to Pathfinder, which to me is just really awesome.
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Small issue with that.. Why would there be a line about replacing the claws from Biped or whatever in Slam if it could be put on your feet, Also for the velociraptor the feet claws are Talons not Claws.. As someone who DOES watch kamen rider i would just say take A level of monk or Unarmed fighter and mix it in with the Nat attacks.. get Multiattack and your solid..
I think the problem with that (monk option) is that you can't use Flurry of Blows with natural attacks without using up extra feats. Not that that's actually a problem since your unarmed attacks would do more damage than the natural attacks anyway... Monks would be the superior option if you're looking to do more attacks, and their wis bonus to AC would likely counter the Eidolon's natural armor bonus at early levels (where I'm at).
But the on-topic question is really how much freedom synthesists have with their eidolon's base-form's "free" evolutions. I.e. Can I apply that claw evolution wherever I want? Flavor suggests yes (considering the "eidolon models" suggested in Ultimate Magic), and RAW seems to as well, but I'm not sure about the intent. My GM allowed it, so that's where it stands for me at the moment.
Side question: Is there any point at all to taking evolutions that give you secondary natural attacks? Why take those when you can take primary attacks instead? Does not compute. (this is basically my sneaky argument for why it's ok that some options are obviously better than others, while some are not).
i.e. (maybe this is a tangent) if I wanted a kangaroo eidolon, I expect my GM would let me say I applied to the legs, as long as when I bought my evolutions, I did so legally, by linking the slam attack to a pair of arms.
So there's a separate phase of buying evolutions, vs. applying evolutions. I think when 'buying' the evolutions (including free ones), they can be applied in any way within the rules, which for claws includes applying them to limbs(legs).
...
Another tangent: Would the way to make a velociraptor be to add the limbs(legs) evolution to a serpent base form?