An odd request.


Advice


Two new players to my game a gal and her guy want to play a summoner, the guy playing the eidolon the girl the summoner, as a rule I don't have a problem with it but does pose questions. Would both characters be ridiculously weak for there level compared to the rogue, paladin and sorcerer? and would I need to make class alterations (saves,bab,HD etc)? to keep them up to spec, would I be mad to allow it?

Sovereign Court

It's really just 1 PC with 2 players; the Eidolon is of human intelligence, can speak, etc. etc. It would be the same as letting a Ranger or Druid have someone else play their Animal Companion (if their AC was as smart as a person.) I don't see any problem with it, and alleviates and kind of actual CR-altering for yourself anyways.


If it is the synergistic concept they're after, they can do better. Perhaps he could play a Synthesist Summoner, while she plays a support/buffing/control caster for him such as conjuration wizard or sorceress.

Or something like a Witch/Witchguard Ranger pair.
Or a Quadruped Synthesist Summoner ridden by a Mounted Fury Barbarian.
Or an Invunerable Rager Barbarian paired with a Savage Skald Bard.
Or a x4 weapon fighter mixed with a crit fisher rogue, each with teamwork feats for crit-passing.

As a summoner/eidolon, they would be bit weak, since essentially you're taking the mechanics of one character and splitting it among two players.


It's sacarin and a little screwed up but they are aiming for a beauty and the beast relationship.

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I'd say it's totally fine, but when you're designing encounters, still count them as a single PC for CR values. They're going to each be weaker than a standard character, and don't forget that the eidolon can get sent away by banishment spells and such, so one player might have nothing to do sometimes.


Lamontius wrote:


If it is the synergistic concept they're after, they can do better. Perhaps he could play a Synthesist Summoner, while she plays a support/buffing/control caster for him such as conjuration wizard or sorceress.

Or something like a Witch/Witchguard Ranger pair.
Or a Quadruped Synthesist Summoner ridden by a Mounted Fury Barbarian.
Or an Invunerable Rager Barbarian paired with a Savage Skald Bard.
Or a x4 weapon fighter mixed with a crit fisher rogue, each with teamwork feats for crit-passing.

As a summoner/eidolon, they would be bit weak, since essentially you're taking the mechanics of one character and splitting it among two players.

That is what worries me, I was wondering if there were better way to set facilitate their odd cross species relationship within the rules?


Among my concerns is that the eidolon is tied to the summoner -- if the summoner falls unconscious, then the eidolon vanishes. That's not terribly fun when two of the players are going to drop at the same time. There's a feat that keeps the eidolon around longer, but I've had a bard with Lingering Performance so my effects could stay up for a couple extra rounds when I went unconscious, and even then, there were more than a couple times when that ability expired.

You don't necessarily need class features literally linking the two characters for them to be 'bonded'; the right abilities and role-playing can set that tone. Taking Teamwork feats, the Bodyguard feat, some of the shield-related fighter archetypes, the Lirgen druidic archetype that can redirect electrical attacks, or even just staying nearby with a Arrow Catching shield are all great options for representing a cooperative or protection-based relationship.

Hell, I have a player who is playing a cleric 'of another player'. The second player doesn't grant the divine spells -- rather, the cleric's devotion to her protection serves as his source of power.


You could always have one play a Synthesist Summoner and the other a Master Summoner without a pet. Make it where the Synth has to stay in his form at all times but doesnt loose his shell when he is unconsious or asleep.

Take away the Master Summoner's Pet and Take away the Double HP for the Synth... just let him have the Eidolon Temporary HP as his REAL HP instead. But in return let the life link, Transposistion, ect of the Master Summoner work on with the Syth.


Chime, are they totally new players to Pathfinder, or just new to your game?


Troubleshooter points out a particular quirk about the summoner that you should consider. The eidolon is more capable in many ways that an animal companion or familiar, but it comes with a price - less independence.

I also think that the summoner's spell list is pretty lackluster for general adventuring as well. Your players aren't going to have the thrill of blasting away with a wizard and meleeing with his eidolon - rather one player will be meleeing with the eidolon and the summoner will be buffing him.

I would consider some other relationship with fully independent PCs (at least according to the rules) but otherwise devoted to each other. The devotion would come mainly from how they are played, not the rules. A wizard and an assigned "homonculus" (really just using the gnome stats) or a "bound" outsider bodyguard creature using some PC race stats but morphologically looking very different could be ideas to consider.


I say go for it. As far as the CR's go just treat it as one PC.

Or grant a couple of free feats or bonuses to make them a little bit tougher. Maybe give the summoner a 25 pt buy instead of a 20, and give the Eidolan one extra evolution point at levels 1, 7, 13, and 19 That way they can start off by being able to be more than 50 feet or 100 feet apart, whatever that rule is, without not having to burn the evolution points

LEt them have fun.


Well, considering that a lot of people seem to think the summoner is overpowered, this would be an elegant way of reducing that power.

Also, I'm not sure how odd the relationship is considering that the fluff of the summoner is that s/he and the eidolon share their souls. Isn't that the core of the romantic image: Two souls intertwine to become one?

The biggest issue I see is that every time the summoner is knocked out, the eidolon goes away, too. If you were worried about this being too underpowered, make a houserule that the eidolon won't go away when the summoner is taken out.

My wife and I also like to play synergistic characters. Our first pair was a fighter (hers) and a buffer wizard (mine). We had a lot of fun with that. She was able to hit things really hard with her lucerne hammer (it has reach!) and she had a wolf companion to help flank. At level 6, average DPR against AC 20 is 17.24, but that doesn't include the flanking bonus or her wolf's attack (plus the wolf's free trip!). Meanwhile, my wizard would cast Bull's Strength, Enlarge Person, and Haste on her and the wolf to make them even stronger.

Our second pair was a ratfolk pair (we both like rats, even have two as pets, although one just died of old age a few days ago). She played a rogue, and I played an alchemist. Their synergy was fantastic. By level 11, her average DPR against AC 26 was 95.07 + 8 Str + optional demoralize. His average DPR against AC 26 was 62.23 + 6 Str + 18 bleed + Sickened (Fort DC 20). They can nearly take out an adult dragon in 1 round.


They both have 3.5 experience but are lacking in pathfinder play. I suppose I find the idea of the idea of this women falling in love with something as alien as an eidolon a bit odd.


I think most Summoner archtypes sacrifice the Eidolans power for other stuff. Is there an archtype that increases the Eidlons power at the cost of using the Summon Monster SLA?


I would suggest houseruling away both the distance restriction and the eidolon goes away when the summoner sleeps / is unconscious thing. Just say that the summoner has called the eidolon to the material plane permanently rather than temporarily, so the eidolon doesn't need the summoner to be around to be able to exist on this plane. That should make the pair into perfectly playable characters.

With that said, warn your players that they won't be as powerful as normal PCs, and especially warn the summoner to make sure she can contribute outside of casting spells (maybe by investing some ability scores and feats into melee or archery - a summoner has decent BAB after all).


Wind Chime wrote:
They both have 3.5 experience but are lacking in pathfinder play. I suppose I find the idea of the idea of this women falling in love with something as alien as an eidolon a bit odd.

All those 'half-'something templates in D&D had to come from SOMEWHERE....


Yeah, I think a Synthesist fluffed to be a regular Eidolon and then a more general purpose buffer such as a Bard (And music soothed the savage Beast!) might be more effective and less of a hassle to deal with. Say she's got the leash ad you're good.


Well, this is a lot like FF10, where the a summoner falls in love with her summon. Couldn't she play wizard, he play an outsider such as an aasimar, but fluff it as summoner and eidolon?


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I am now imagining a game with one player fielding a summoner, and another player fielding a demon trapped by her liberal planar binding. He spends the campaign trying to convince her that he really loves her and that he's not just trying to break free.

Maybe not appropriate for this situation, but that dynamic would be really fun to watch.


Yeah, I'll add my voice in to the 'two separate characters linked together' chorus. It's a unique and rather cool idea, but playing a summoner without also playing the eidolon says "a little buffing and a whole lot of feeling useless." I like the idea of modifying the Synthesist and Bard classes to suit the campaign.


Wind Chime wrote:
That is what worries me, I was wondering if there were better way to set facilitate their odd cross species relationship within the rules?

Why couldn't they be totally separate characters and the guy is just a bestial race, then? This seems like a weird complication for no reason.

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I'm with mplindustries on this one. Why not have the girl play a wizard and the guy play some kind of monstrous race -- or maybe just a reskinned orc or something? Flavor-wise, the guy could be an outsider that was bound to the wizard.

I'm sure the girl would have more fun playing a full-fledged buffing wizard while the guy having more fun playing a real character.

Shadow Lodge

If both of the players are up for it (And recognize it may not be as much fun as they'd hope), I'd say go for it. But, everyone else here is right-- there ARE other ways to build that kind of dynamic.

There are plenty of classes and characters that are built to support each other in some way, even if it's not obvious at first. Maybe try to find something like that, and suggest one of those combos for them?


while the idea sparks my interest, one thing i would mention and caution.

The eidolon is a SUMMON as in summon monster, not summon nature's ally.

is like a permanent domination. (and where does it say the eidolon can speak?)

This i find might be the biggest problem if they disagree on something... both at and away from table.


IejirIsk wrote:
(and where does it say the eidolon can speak?)
Eidolon wrote:
An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages.


fair enough. been a long time since i looked at the summons... thank ye Rynjin.

my previous potential concerns remain, however.

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