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While not my favorite class, I have always like the rogue and I enjoy playing one at times. I understand they lack a little in the combat department but I don't see them being as bad a people claim. I mean their Sneak Attack got a boost by being able to sneak attack undead but they aren't supposed to be heavy hitters all the time.
I am going to post my own build when I get the chance but let's see some rogue builds and examine what they can do. It will be a 20 point buy with standard WBL gear. You can build at any level.
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Bonus points for this thread are if you make the build with another class and compare it to your rogue build.
Yeah, post your build and compare it to the classes that are in competion with the rogue. Also best without multiclassing into other classes or PrC´s. Have it well-arranged and it would be a huge bonus and take the rogue conversations on a more serious level.
There's also some secret criteria for extra Super Bonus points. Much like how most builds in the fighter that were dumping Cha, I expect some common themes here too. Are you wizard enough to figure these out an and take the path less travelled? Find out after this short break!
This one is from the last rogue thread
Grumpy McThug
Not a bad melee character. On the other hand, if you say you're playing a rogue, the other players might expect you to be able to disarm traps...
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A str > dex build with wands of flame blade and fiery shurican as back up weapons in spring loaded wrist sheaths. Ninja works better but swashbuckler helps with scimitar prof.
I always liked the magic rogue talents - picking up vanish or blend, and the rogue talent offensive defense.
My ninja picked up crane style feats and medium armor prof to stay alive, useful when improved invisibility fails you. He was the last creature standing when we ran the Cthulhu scenario in the carrion crown AP.
Scout Rouge lvl 10
DEFENSE
AC
23, touch 15, flat-footed 17 (+9 armor,+2 natural, +2 deflection, +2 Dex,+ 1 dodge)
hp 80 (10d8+40)
Fort +7, Ref +12, Will +6
Defensive Abilities evasion, trap sense + 3
OFFENSE
Speed
30 ft.
Melee
+3 Heavy Mace + 18/+11 (1d8+13/20x2)
Special Attacks :sneak attack +5d6
STATISTICS
Str
24, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +14; CMD 20
Feats
Dodge,Mobility,Spring Attack,Bludgeoner, Weapon Focus,Sap Adept,Sap Master
Skills
Acrobatics +15, Climb +20, Disable Device +15, Escape Artist +15,
Intimidate +13, Perception +13, UMD +13, Stealth +15, Swim +20
Languages
SQ
Common
rogue talents (combat trick,offensive defense,crippling strike,Powerful Sneak , weapon training), trapfinding +5
Combat Gear Belt of Giant Strenght+4 16000gp,Elven Chain+2 9150gp,Heavy Mace+3 18000gp,Ring of Deflection+2 8000gp,Cloak of Resistance+3 9000gp ,Travelers Any Tool 250 gp
This guy is pretty mobile and has some hard hitting single attacks(avg.77,5/nonlethal+2 Strenght Damage),when he charges he is fairly accurate with +20 to-hit and he can spring attack to keep away from the frontline.With offensive defense he can bring his AC up to 33 against a single opponent.
========================================================================
DPR while Spring Attacking 54.8975
DPR while Charging 62.74
(against AC24)
========================================================================
I did not post this because I think Rogues are decent,in fact I think they are horribly underpowered.This build has terrible AC,low Hitpoints and relies on precision and nonlethal Damage.And its DPR still isn't particularly high.
I also posted this build to show how overpowered some of the new classes are.
*cough*Synthesist*cough*
For Comparison
Half Elf Synthesist lvl 10
10STR,10DEX,10CON,14WIS,16INT,22CHA
Fused Stats
30STR,16DEX,18CON,14WIS,16INT,22CHA
AC 33(with Mage Armorand Barkskin) +17Fort,+16Ref+16Will
hp 167 10d8+8d10+40+32 CMB 23+2Grapple
Attack
Pounce,Grab,Rake,Power Attack,Arcane Strike
(+22Bite,+22Claw,+22Claw,+22Slam if Grab sticks +22Rake,+22Rake)
Damage Bite 15+9+d6Energy+3Arcane+2AmoMF+d8
Damage Claws 10+6+d6Energy+3Arcane+2AmoMf+d6
Damage Slam 10+6+d6Energy+3Arcane+2AmoMF+2d6
Damage Rakes 10+6+d6Energy+3Arcane+2AmoMF+d8
(these numbers are with Heroism active)
Evolution Points 18
Quadruped
Evolutions
Large 4points
Pounce 1point
Bite 1point
Claws 1point
Grab(Claws) 2points
Rake 2points
Limbs(Arms)2points
Slam 1point
Natural Armorx2 2points
Energy Attacks 2points
Feats
Extra Evolutions,Skill Focus(Perception)
Power Attack
Extra Evolutions
Arcane Strike
Lunge
Gear:16000gp Belt+4strenght,16000,Headband+2 Int and Cha,16000gp AmoMF+2,Cloak+3 Saves9000gp,Ring of Protection+1 2000gp
Skills: 5 Skills per level +Skill Focus+ Evolution Surge+Heroism
========================================================================
DPR(not Charging) 112.05 plus Rakes 164.07
========================================================================
No Comment needed
Do I get my Bonus Points Cheapy?
BTW, Cheapy, you still owe me bonus points!
No one with a straight rogue without archetype?
No one with a straight rogue without archetype?
Why don't you post one?
Supposed to be working...
Supposed to be working...
I love this answer.
Not "working" or "at work", but "supposed to be working".Thanks, Hayato Ken, you actually made me smile... ^^
I gave all required bonus points out!
Does this mean I've been passed over?
Damn you Cheapy, I WANT MY BONUSPOINTS. *shakes fist at the heavens*
Welcome Lemmy. To make it worse:
Small Humanoid (halfling)
Init +6; Senses Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 18 (+7 armor, +6 Dex, +1 size)
hp 99 (10d8+46)
Fort +6, Ref +14 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +6; +2 vs. fear
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved uncanny dodge (lv >=14), trap sense
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft., climb (walls only) (20 feet)
Melee +1 Mithral Shortsword +14 (1d4+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Sword of subtlety +14/+9 (1d4+2/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks sneak attack +5d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 23, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +7; CMB +7; CMD 23
Feats Fleet, Iron Will, Toughness +10, Tribal Scars (Raptorscale), Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Shortsword)
Skills Acrobatics +21 (+25 jump), Appraise +4, Bluff +15, Climb +13, Diplomacy +6, Disable Device +17, Disguise +6, Escape Artist +10, Fly +8, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge (local) +10, Linguistics +4, Perception +15 (+20 to locate traps), Sense Motive +4, Sleight of Hand +16, Stealth +23, Swim +5, Use Magic Device +10
Languages Common, Halfling
SQ fearless, hero points, rogue talents (fast stealth, offensive defense, unwitting ally, wall climber, weapon training), trapfinding +5
Other Gear +3 Mithral Chain shirt, +1 Mithral Shortsword, Sword of subtlety, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, 10730 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Climb (walls only) (20 feet) You have a Climb speed.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Fearless +2 racial bonus vs Fear saves.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=14) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 14+.
Offensive Defense (Ex) Sneak attack grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each die rolled vs. that foe.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Unwitting Ally (Ex) A rogue with this talent can spend a swift action to attempt to make an opponent act like an ally for purposes of providing a flank until the beginning of the rogue's next turn. The opponent must be able to hear and see the rogue, and the rogue must
Wall Climber (Su) A ninja with this ability gains a climb speed of 20 feet, but only on vertical surfaces. This ability cannot be used to scale perfectly smooth surfaces or to climb on the underside of horizontal surfaces.
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
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That´s something i would totally play. I´m not sure about the DPR though, since i never made DPR calculations. Perhaps someone could be so nice and make some for this build.
I gave all required bonus points out!
Hey, I made 3 or 4 builds with decent Cha in the other thread. And I still didn't get my bonus points... -.-'
One of them even multiclassed Monk/Paladin. That should be some extra bonus points right there! ^^
Hey stay on topic! It´s not about CHA dumping!
Welcome Lemmy. To make it worse:
That´s something i would totally play. I´m not sure about the DPR though, since i never made DPR calculations. Perhaps someone could be so nice and make some for this build.
There ya go:
DPR on a Fullattack
without Sneak Attack 5.6375
with Sneak Attack 36.8225
(flanking bonus not included)
Thanks a lot! Of course it is meant to be flanking, but that´s not reliable.
Here's a Roguish Half-Orc... Rorc. I used 20pt-buy and 2 traits.
He is Str-based and uses a longspear. He has no dump stats because Rogues can't really afford them if they want to survive and still feel like Rogues. I tried to boost his saves as much as I could, because Rogues' saves suck.
I'm not sure how good he actually is, I suppose he's a viable character, but still... nothing too impressive.
Honestly... I don't see anything he does that a Inquisitor or Bard can't do better.
Half-Orc (Mystic) Rogue 1
CN Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +6
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 10 (1d8+2)
Fort +4 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +5, Will +3
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Dagger +3 (1d4+3/19-20/x2) and
. . Dagger +3 (1d4+3/19-20/x2) and
. . Longspear +3 (1d8+4/x3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +1d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +0; CMB +3; CMD 15
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice)
Traits Hermean Paragon (Steaming Sea), Resilient
Skills Acrobatics +4, Bluff +4, Climb +1, Diplomacy +4, Disable Device +3, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Intimidate +4, Perception +6 (+7 to locate traps), Ride +0, Sense Motive +6, Stealth +4, Swim +1 (+5 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion), Use Magic Device +4
Languages Common, Orc
SQ trapfinding +1
Other Gear Chain shirt, Dagger, Dagger, Longspear, 31 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice) +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Hermean Paragon (Steaming Sea) You gain a +2 trait bonus on Initiative checks.
Sneak Attack +1d6 +1d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trapfinding +1 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Nothing too bad here. His AC is acceptable for a 1st level character, and his to-hit is not bad, since his BAB is just 1 point behind martial characters. Darkvision and lots of skills can be extremelly useful.
Everyone being one blast away from death makes Trapfiding and good Reflex saves actually pretty awesome. The relative lack of enemy casters means the poor Will save doesn't hurt much either.
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox
Half-Orc (Mystic) Rogue 3
CN Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +8
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 17, touch 12, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 23 (3d8+6)
Fort +5 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +6 (+1 bonus vs. traps), Will +4
Defensive Abilities evasion, trap sense
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Dagger +5 (1d4+3/19-20/x2) and
. . Dagger +5 (1d4+3/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Longspear +7 (1d8+4/x3) and
. . Silversheen Longspear +7 (1d8+4/x3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +2d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +2; CMB +5; CMD 17
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice), Shadow Strike, Weapon Focus (Longspear)
Traits Hermean Paragon (Steaming Sea), Resilient
Skills Acrobatics +7, Bluff +6, Climb +2, Diplomacy +6, Disable Device +10, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Intimidate +6, Perception +8 (+9 to locate traps), Ride +1, Sense Motive +8, Stealth +9, Swim +2 (+6 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion), Use Magic Device +6
Languages Common, Orc
SQ rogue talents (weapon training), trapfinding +1
Combat Gear Oil of magic weapon, Alchemist's fire (5), Holy water (4); Other Gear +1 Chain shirt, Dagger, Dagger, Masterwork Cold Iron Longspear, Silversheen Longspear, Masterwork tool (Disable Device), Masterwork tool (Stealth), 274 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice) +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Hermean Paragon (Steaming Sea) You gain a +2 trait bonus on Initiative checks.
Shadow Strike You can deal precision damage against targets with some concealment.
Sneak Attack +2d6 +2d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +1 (Ex) +1 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +1 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Rorc became extra skilled with his longspear, but his AC didn't increase much. This is where he starts to lag compared to whoever can use medium armor. Well, at least he can sneak attack enemies with concealment.
Traps are still pretty lethal thanks to PCs having lowish health and reosurces, so trapfinding actually helps.
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox
Half-Orc (Mystic) Rogue 6
CN Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +11
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 18, touch 13, flat-footed 16 (+5 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 42 (6d8+12)
Fort +8 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +10 (+2 bonus vs. traps), Will +7
Defensive Abilities evasion, trap sense, uncanny dodge
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Silversheen Longspear +10 (1d8+7/x3) and
. . Dagger +8 (1d4+4/19-20/x2) and
. . Dagger +8 (1d4+4/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Longspear +10 (1d8+6/x3)
Ranged Masterwork Composite shortbow (Str +3) +7 (1d6+3/x3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +3d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 19, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +4; CMB +8; CMD 21
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice), Furious Focus, Power Attack -2/+4, Shadow Strike, Weapon Focus (Longspear)
Traits Hermean Paragon (Steaming Sea), Resilient
Skills Acrobatics +10, Bluff +9, Climb +3, Diplomacy +9, Disable Device +15, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Intimidate +9, Perception +11 (+14 to locate traps), Ride +1, Sense Motive +11, Stealth +12, Swim +3 (+7 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion), Use Magic Device +9
Languages Common, Orc
SQ rogue talents (combat trick, offensive defense, weapon training), trapfinding +3
Combat Gear Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +1 Chain shirt, +1 Silversheen Longspear, Dagger, Dagger, Masterwork Cold Iron Longspear, Masterwork Composite shortbow (Str +3), Belt of giant strength +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Ring of protection +1, Masterwork tool (Disable Device), Masterwork tool (Stealth), 224 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice) +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Hermean Paragon (Steaming Sea) You gain a +2 trait bonus on Initiative checks.
Offensive Defense (Ex) Sneak attack grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each die rolled vs. that foe.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Shadow Strike You can deal precision damage against targets with some concealment.
Sneak Attack +3d6 +3d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +2 (Ex) +2 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +3 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed
Rorc now has Power Attack, which is not that good for a medium-BAB class with no means of buffing itself, but Furious Focus really helps. He can use PA every round with not penalties at all, increasing his damage from 1d8+7 to 1d8+13. Offensive Defense boosts Rorc's ability to survive his enemy's attacks, but not much.
I went for better saves and offensive capabilities, but Rorc could easily have gone for higher AC.
By now, the party has a decent amount of HP and much better resources, so trapfinding is not nearly as useful as it was in previous levels.
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox
Half-Orc (Mystic) Rogue 10
CN Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +16
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 78 (10d8+30)
Fort +12 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +14 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +11
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved uncanny dodge (lv >=14), trap sense
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Cold Iron Longspear +14/+9 (1d8+8/x3) and
. . +2 Silversheen Longspear +15/+10 (1d8+9/x3) and
. . Dagger +12/+7 (1d4+5/19-20/x2) and
. . Dagger +12/+7 (1d4+5/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Adaptive Composite shortbow (Str +4) +10/+5 (1d6+6/x3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +5d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +12; CMD 28
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Defensive Combat Training, Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice), Furious Focus, Lunge, Power Attack -2/+4, Shadow Strike, Weapon Focus (Longspear)
Traits Hermean Paragon (Steaming Sea), Resilient
Skills Acrobatics +14, Bluff +13, Climb +4, Diplomacy +13, Disable Device +21, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Intimidate +13, Perception +16 (+21 to locate traps), Ride +1, Sense Motive +16, Stealth +16, Survival +3 (+5 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +4 (+8 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion), Use Magic Device +13
Languages Common, Orc
SQ rogue talents (combat trick, crippling strike, offensive defense, slow reactions, weapon training), trapfinding +5
Combat Gear Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +2 Chain shirt, +1 Adaptive Composite shortbow (Str +4), +1 Cold Iron Longspear, +2 Silversheen Longspear, Dagger, Dagger, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +2), Cloak of resistance +4, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ring of protection +1, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Masterwork tool (Disable Device), Masterwork tool (Stealth), 1649 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Crippling Strike (Ex) Your sneak attacks do 2 points of Strength damage.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice) +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Hermean Paragon (Steaming Sea) You gain a +2 trait bonus on Initiative checks.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=14) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 14+.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Offensive Defense (Ex) Sneak attack grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each die rolled vs. that foe.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Shadow Strike You can deal precision damage against targets with some concealment.
Slow Reactions (Ex) Foes hit by a sneak attack can't make AoO for 1 rd.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone.
Rorc actually has a decent CMD now. Hopefully, he shouldn't be grappled/tripped as often. Lunge combined with Slow Reactions and Crippling Strike go a long way to increase his offensive options and survivability.
His saves are actually pretty good. And all it cost him was 1 trait, 1 racial alternate trait, a Cloak of Resistance +4, 5 attribute points and a a headband devoted to a tertiary ability score. Awesome, huh? -.-'
Rorc's AC and to-hit are pretty low, though, so he does need more party support than I'd be comfortable with.
He still has over 1600gp to spend on his favorite wands/potions/whatever.
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox
Can Rorc contribute to the party? Sure!
Can he do it as well as a Bard/Inquisitor/Alchemist/Ranger? I honestly don't think so...
Carnivalist/Investigator Rogue
I'm loving it more than those people in McDonald's commercials
Here's a Roguish Half-Orc... Rorc. I used 20pt-buy and 2 traits.
He is Str-based and uses a longspear. He has no dump stats because Rogues can't really afford them if they want to survive and still feel like Rogues. I tried to boost his saves as much as I could, because Rogues' saves suck.
I'm not sure how good he actually is, I suppose he's a viable character, but still... nothing too impressive.
Honestly... I don't see anything he does that a Inquisitor or Bard can't do much better.
** spoiler omitted **...
Rorc is dangerously weak in his defense.With AC 20 and only 76 hp, I can only hope for him that he never meets this guy:
Fire Giant CR 10LE Large humanoid (fire, giant)
Init –1; Senses low-light vision; Perception +14
DEFENSE
AC 24, touch 8, flat-footed 24 (+8 armor, –1 Dex, +8 natural, –1 size)
hp 142 (15d8+75)
Fort +14, Ref +4, Will +9
Defensive Abilities rock catching; Immune fire
Weaknesses vulnerability to cold
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft. (30 ft. in armor)
Melee greatsword +21/+16/+11 (3d6+15) or 2 slams +20 (1d8+10)
Ranged rock +10 (1d8+15 plus 1d6 fire)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks heated rock, rock throwing (120 ft.)
========================================================================
Fire Giants DPR against Rorc 71.01
========================================================================
Thats almost a death sentence for your characer.So tell Rorc if he sees a Big Red Guy with Flaming Hair...RUN!!!!
To be fair, a Rogue who goes to the front lines against a Fire Giant deserves every bit of large-sized pain he gets.
Had he invested a bit more in Dex and armor enhancements, his AC would go up by 2~3... Probably still not enough to save him from the tall red-haired dude with a giant sword.
To be fair, a Rogue who goes to the front lines against a Fire Giant deserves every bit of large-sized pain he gets.
But what else is a rogue supposed to do? Unless he's focused on ranged attacks, there's not much he can do to contribute without getting in close.
To be fair, a Rogue who goes to the front lines against a Fire Giant deserves every bit of large-sized pain he gets.But what else is a rogue supposed to do? Unless he's focused on ranged attacks, there's not much he can do to contribute without getting in close.
My bad, let me rephrase that... To be fair, a Rogue who goes alone to the front lines against a Fire Giant deserves every bit of large-sized pain he gets.
Rogues shouldn't be the first line of defense, they should be there to support martial characters and do lots of stuff in the non-hitting department.
Problem is, they're not very good at any of those roles. They are just like their class features... Helpful once in a while, but far from necessary.
Meanwhile Sammy Synthesist could eat a whole army of Fire Giants for breakfast all by himself........but that does of course not mean hes overpowered.
Why is Sammy Synthesist in the Rogue build thread? Is there anyone here who doesn't think that the synthesist is a better melee than a rogue? anyone??? And I daresay that a "whole army" is more than a bit of hyperbole.
No hyperbole at all the Synthesist I posted could fight 10 Fire Giants at the same time and only take some minor bruises.
Why is Rorc fighting a Fire Giant alone? What rogue does that ever?
That's exactly my point.
I wonder how my rogue would do against that giant,
Even without frighten him, I think Grumpy McThug could defeat the fire giant IF grumpy goes first in initiative.
EDIT: Nevermind, the giant have too much Hps.
I don't think Fear effects from the same source stack, Nicos. Grumpy could make the Giant shaken, but that's it.
I may be wrong though, I'm not sure what fear effects do stack.
Oh and its not about fighting the Fire Giant alone.If the Fire Giant gets of one attack against Rorc and rolls slighty above average then Rorc is dead,doesn't matter if his pals watch him die or if theres nobody around to see it.
Comparing the rogue to a synthesist doesn't really tell us much.
Rogues suck.
Oh don't get me wrong, they can still be fun to play, but if we're talking crunching numbers they always end up subpar.
My favorite at the moment is thug rogue sap expert TWFer with dual maces. 2 strikes a round that do 1d6+6d6+12+3 nonlethal at level 5? Not shabby. When you do double your SA dice in subdual damage (and +2 per die) the sneak attack ability AAAAALMost scales the way you'd want it to.
Of course, you're crap vs. undead or anything else immune to nonlethal. But in a non-undead based campaign, it's pretty okay.
Comparing the rogue to a synthesist doesn't really tell us much.
It tells us that Synthesists are out of the line and OP.
But against what class would you want to see it pitted?
Also, thug rogues NEED Cornugon Smash. Or Scary Smash as our gaming group calls it.