Build Thread 4: The rogue can't be that bad


Advice

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Silver Crusade

I guess I need to pull out my 70 DPR, party face, UMD using ninja I plan on playing in PFS eventually.

Liberty's Edge

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I guess I need to pull out my 70 DPR, party face, UMD using ninja I plan on playing in PFS eventually.

If you want...though this thread is supposed to be about rogues. I don't think they are that bad. They get played, and the people that play them enjoy them...at least that's been my experience. Then again, I play with people that don't worry about DPR. They play RPGs for roleplaying. *shrug*

It's all good. I just insist that it's not a requirement to be the damage machine...or the AC monster...or any supremely optimized anything.

Silver Crusade

Ninjas are rogues. Although I could build a rogue that does the same thing.


If rogues suck, why doesn't Paizo buff them? I thought the entire point of redesigning the core classes in pathfinder was to make sure there would be a reason to take every single one of them, and to get to level 20 rather than the crazy 3.5 multiclassing with PRCs.

Liberty's Edge

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Question wrote:
If rogues suck, why doesn't Paizo buff them? I thought the entire point of redesigning the core classes in pathfinder was to make sure there would be a reason to take every single one of them, and to get to level 20 rather than the crazy 3.5 multiclassing with PRCs.

They really don't suck. They just aren't top-end monster killers.

Silver Crusade

Rogues are very good at what they do. They are support damage dealers, skill monkeys, trap finders, and can serve as party face. The problem is that other classes can do each of those things at least as well as the rogue while offering additional utility. From what I've heard about 3.5, the trap finder and skill monkey roles were fairly unique to the rogue.

Heck, a certain bard archetype can fill all 4 of the roles the rogue shines at and still cast support and/or healing spells.


Question wrote:
If rogues suck, why doesn't Paizo buff them? I thought the entire point of redesigning the core classes in pathfinder was to make sure there would be a reason to take every single one of them, and to get to level 20 rather than the crazy 3.5 multiclassing with PRCs.

Communication probably. Rogues did get boosted on paper, but none of the new rogue talents actually boost them in a way that compensates for tougher monsters. Fixing them now is practically impossible because of pagination constraints.


All you have to do is release erratas to change wht rogue talents do. That can' be hard.

Hell, someone on the forums will probably do it for free if paizo askes.


This probably violates all of your contest constraints, but here is my rogue:

Frederich the Adamant:

Frederich the Adamant
dwarf 15, ftr 4 / rog 11

str 20
int 14
wis 10
dex 15
con 18
cha 8

AC: 29 = 10 + 9+3 + 2+3 +2
DR: 3/-
Fortification: 25%

HP: 162 = 10 + 5.5*3 + 4.5*11 + 1*15 + 1*11 + 4*15

Fort: +15 = 4+3 +4 +4
Refl: +14 = 1+7 +2 +4
Will: +10 = 1+3 +0 +4 +2
+5 vs spells, spell-likes, and poison
+1 vs fear

Init: +6
Mv: 30'

Axe: +21/+16; 1d10+10; 19-20x3
Axe, power attack: +17/+12; 1d10+18; 19-20x3
Axe and Shield: +19/+14; 1d10+10; 19-20x3 , +19; 1d6+3; 20x2
+6d6 sneak attack, 2 str damage on SA

Dwarven Power Armor: Adamant Full Plate +3, light fortification
Dwarven Power Armor, power core belt: +4 str, +4 con
Dwarven Power Armor, Boots: striding and springing
Cloak of resistance +4
Ring of Major Fire Resist (20)
Heavy Mithral Spined Shield +3; +1 spikes
Keen Adamantite Dwarven Waraxe +3
Necklace of Adaptation
Ring of Sustenance

Feats:
1 Toughness
F1 Power Attack
F2 Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe)
3 Iron Will
F4 Weapon Specialization (Dwarven Waraxe)
5 Improved Shield Bash
7 Steel Soul
9 Two Weapon Fighting
11 Master Craftsman (Armorsmith)
13 Craft Magic Arms & Armor
15 Improved Init?

Other:
Trait: Armor Expert
Trait: Glory of Old
Darkvision
Craftsman +2
Stonecunning
Stability
Defensive training
Hatred
Hardy
Weapon familiarity
Bravery +1
Armor Mastery 1
Trap Spotter
Canny Observer
Opportunist
Surprise Attack
Crippling Strike

Skills: 2*4 + 8*11 + 2*15 = 126 (= 8.4 * 15)
Acrobatics 17*= 15 +3 +2 [+5jump] -3
Perception 18*= 15 +3 +0 [+4canny] [+2stonework] [+5traps]
Disable Device 24 = 15 +3 +2 +2 +5 -3
Sense Motive 18 = 15 +3 +0
Craft(metalsmith) 24 = 15 +3 +2 +2 +2
Craft(armorsmith) 26 = 15 +3 +2 +2 +2+2
Knowledge(Engineering) 20 = 15 +3 +2
Knowledge(Dungeoneering) 12 = 7 +3 +2
Survival 10 = 7 +3 +0
Appraise 12 = 7 +3 +2

Mwk tools: thieves tools, metalworking tools

Silver Crusade

jerrys wrote:
...

Something looks wrong with your HP and Skills.


The problem with the rogue isn't a problem with the rogue. its the general skill buff for the other classes. With the collapsed skill list, the change in cross class skills, UMD becoming so universally available, and no cross class penalty. It became a lot easier to master whatever set of skills you need with less points. Then there's the "flavorful" but generally awful rouge talents that are so good that extra combat feat is one of there best choices. In any other class with a similar mechanic(barbarian rage powers, magus arcana, witch hex, etc etc)you trade feats for those powers in a heartbeat because in most cases they're BETTER than feats. Add in the fact that trapfinding is ridiculously overvalued because of nostalgia and not modern adventure design. Traps aren't TPK's anymore(at least not in the AP's home games vary because home games vary) then add in the list of other classes that get trapfinding and most of there other class powers. Hell sneak attack was given to one of the better alchemist archetypes. Again The problem with the rogue isnt the rogue its the fact that the rogue abilities were so good they were all parceled out to other classes and archetypes that got the rogue goodies ON TOP OF their own powers. Add in the fact that they get 1 good saving throw for no reason(every other class except for the fighter-don't get me started-with only 1 good save has significant supernatural powers.

Silver Crusade

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Despite the numerous people who will tell you to dual-wield light weapons, rogues are not built for two-weapon fighting. They don't have the feats or the BAB to make it work. If your friend insists on TWF, make sure he is prepared to miss, and miss a lot. If he doesn't want to be the human wind machine, he can either just fight with a single light weapon, two-hand a one-handed weapon, or just use a two-handed weapon.

If he decides on the two-handed weapon, I strongly recommend making a half-elf and taking the Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait and getting access to an Elven curve blade. It's a d10 weapon that can be used with either a Str-based or Dex-based rogue and it's got a lot of flavor for a half-elven martial character. Other weapons with reach and/or bigger hit dice are also options, the the ECB just feels right.

Also, tell him not to be afraid to make a Str-based rogue. Yes, people think rogue and immediately think Dex-based, but a rogue can just as easily be a brutish thug as a cat burglar. Str-based and Dex-based rogues end up having about the same AC, Str-based do more damage, and Dex-based generally have slightly better skills. It's up to him to decide which route he wants to go with his rogue. Also, if he's not particularly worried about Trapfinding, the ninja alternate class should be considered. Most people agree ninja tricks are more powerful than rogue talents, and overall the ninja weapon proficiencies are better than the rogue's.

Make sure your friend learns all the ways he can get sneak attacks. Sneak attack damage is what allows the rogue to even come close to the damage that full BAB classes can do. Flanking is going to be the primary way to get sneak attack, and it also grants a bonus to hit for his flanking partner. Because of this, your friend should strongly consider getting menacing enchanted on his weapon or get a menacinh Amulet of Mighty Fists. This enchant doubles the flanking bonus from 2 to 4 for all allies flanking any target...

This is a post I posted in a rogue thread over in the advice forum. It feels appropriate to this thread as well.


I thought TWF lets you get more chances to sneak attack?


Question wrote:
I thought TWF lets you get more chances to sneak attack?

More chances at lower odds with no options when you can't sneak attack and no advantage when you can't full attack.


Question wrote:
I thought TWF lets you get more chances to sneak attack?

Indeed but with an already low to hit, no built in to hit bonuses, and the increased cost of weapons leading to a lower bonus on each weapon you end up losing damage because your to hit is so low that you just lost a hitting on pretty much all iteratives and the main attacks to hit is barely a thing.


shallowsoul wrote:
I keep hearing that other classes do the rogue's job better than the rogue. Well what job might that be?

I think you just answered your own question. Rogues have no role. They suck.


shallowsoul wrote:
I keep hearing that other classes do the rogue's job better than the rogue. Well what job might that be?

Trap Finder: Archaelogist Bard

Face: Paladins or Bards

Sneak attack master: Vivisectionist

Sneaky Peoples: Ninjas, or anyone with access to invisibility (they can invest the same amount into sneak anyways and still have invisibility)

Knowledge Person: Bard

Oddly enough the bard fits into 4 of the 5 main categories I can think of. They still do equivalent or better damage as well.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:

Rogues are very good at what they do. They are support damage dealers, skill monkeys, trap finders, and can serve as party face. The problem is that other classes can do each of those things at least as well as the rogue while offering additional utility. From what I've heard about 3.5, the trap finder and skill monkey roles were fairly unique to the rogue.

Heck, a certain bard archetype can fill all 4 of the roles the rogue shines at and still cast support and/or healing spells.

Yeah the rogue's thing used to be protected more. Some dungeons, you would lose most of your party without a rogue.

Which is just an extension of the thief requirement in AD&D.


IIRC, if you are TWF, you can move and attack once with each weapon right?

Let's say target has AC 20 and the Rogue has a to hit of oh...+5/+5 (could probably get it a bit higher with tweaking). He has a ~43% chance to land one hit and get sneak attack bonus dice, versus a 35% chance to land a hit with a single attack at +7.


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Question wrote:

IIRC, if you are TWF, you can move and attack once with each weapon right?

Let's say target has AC 20 and the Rogue has a to hit of oh...+5/+5 (could probably get it a bit higher with tweaking). He has a ~43% chance to land one hit and get sneak attack bonus dice, versus a 35% chance to land a hit with a single attack at +7.

No. You only attack with the main hand weapon once. You only get the bonus attacks when full attacking. The ability you're describing is part of the fighter TWF archetype and he gets it around level 11 or so.

Edit: So for reference, I believe you still take penalties even if you don't get the bonus attack. So you'd be hitting 25% of the time to hit 35% and you wouldn't get Two handed weapon strength bonuses or anything like that.


there is a fighter archetype "two weapon fighter" that can move and attack with two weapons, but almost everyone else can only make a 5' step when they attack more than once.

edit: Ninja'd gorramit!


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Factoring in the flank bonus and/or the flat footed ac of the target is where the math becomes magic

Like a unicorn galloping on a rainbow if both the rainbow and the unicorn were made entirely of stabbing


Lamontius wrote:

Factoring in the flank bonus and/or the flat footed ac of the target is where the math becomes magic

Like a unicorn galloping on a rainbow if both the rainbow and the unicorn were made entirely of stabbing

Nope. Even with flanking he's still subpar.

And flatfooted barely hurts most enemies. Most of your bonuses for both martials and monsters come from armor, shield, and nat armor.

For mages you're gonna be hitting more concealment and basic miss chance spells.


Nope. Rainbows. Unicorns. Stabbing.


I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not...


Rogues pretty much have to focus on strength, take a 2handed weapon with power attack, and dump charisma. your trapfinding bonuses are plenty for disable device, 3 levels of weapon master grants access to gloves of dueling. and a 4th grants specialization in your preferred 2hander,


Yeah I've done that. Str two hander rogue.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Yeah I've done that. Str two hander rogue.

it is the optimal rogue build for murder. still behind a fighter or barbarian though. let alone being behind a nonsmiting paladin or a ranger against a nonfavored enemy.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

...and that's why I build rogues...for fun.


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Yeah I've done that. Str two hander rogue.
it is the optimal rogue build for murder. still behind a fighter or barbarian though. let alone being behind a nonsmiting paladin or a ranger against a nonfavored enemy.

Actually take sap master with about 3 levels of cavelier and then two hand with vital strike. because of the recent errata where your mount is charging not you, you can vital strike on a mounted charge.

With sneak master its 3xsneak attack + 2x Strength bonus + 3x weapon dice + 6xsneak attack dice + 2x (or maybe 3x) bleed + 2x power attack.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Yeah I've done that. Str two hander rogue.
it is the optimal rogue build for murder. still behind a fighter or barbarian though. let alone being behind a nonsmiting paladin or a ranger against a nonfavored enemy.

Actually take sap master with about 3 levels of cavelier and then two hand with vital strike. because of the recent errata where your mount is charging not you, you can vital strike on a mounted charge.

With sneak master its 3xsneak attack + 2x Strength bonus + 3x weapon dice + 6xsneak attack dice + 2x (or maybe 3x) bleed + 2x power attack.

but most of that damage is nonlethal

you have to have a mount that isn't a class feature and will die against any self respecting foe. a 3rd level cavalier mount is weak

the triple damage requires a lance, and since you cannot use deal nonlethal damage with a lance, sapmaster cannot be combined with a lance

sneak attack doesn't multiply short of a few niche abilities that specifically specify it multiplies them

2 doublings is a tripling and a doubling and a tripling is a quadrupling

meaning the spirited charge build deals

4.5xstr bonus, 3 times enhancement bonus, 9 for 1 power attack multiplier, 1x sneak attack and 1x bleed

vital strike does not work on a charge, even if the mount is charging, you are charging too because you are on the back of a charging mount and attacking.


Schrodinger's Love Child wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Yeah I've done that. Str two hander rogue.
it is the optimal rogue build for murder. still behind a fighter or barbarian though. let alone being behind a nonsmiting paladin or a ranger against a nonfavored enemy.

Actually take sap master with about 3 levels of cavelier and then two hand with vital strike. because of the recent errata where your mount is charging not you, you can vital strike on a mounted charge.

With sneak master its 3xsneak attack + 2x Strength bonus + 3x weapon dice + 6xsneak attack dice + 2x (or maybe 3x) bleed + 2x power attack.

but most of that damage is nonlethal

you have to have a mount that isn't a class feature and will die against any self respecting foe. a 3rd level cavalier mount is weak

the triple damage requires a lance, and since you cannot use deal nonlethal damage with a lance, sapmaster cannot be combined with a lance

sneak attack doesn't multiply short of a few niche abilities that specifically specify it multiplies them

2 doublings is a tripling and a doubling and a tripling is a quadrupling

meaning the spirited charge build deals

4.5xstr bonus, 3 times enhancement bonus, 9 for 1 power attack multiplier, 1x sneak attack and 1x bleed

vital strike does not work on a charge, even if the mount is charging, you are charging too because you are on the back of a charging mount and attacking.

double damage for mounted. double damage for sneak master.

2x2=3 in pathfinder. that's why I said triple for many of those things and double for others.

and no you are not charging while mounted. That was the recent errata. It was done specifically so pounce no longer works while mounted because you were not charging so could not pounce. Your mount is charging. Not you.

Edit: And if I recall right you still go unconscious at 1x HP. You just need 2x to kill. So bring them down midfight then kill them after.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Question wrote:

IIRC, if you are TWF, you can move and attack once with each weapon right?

Let's say target has AC 20 and the Rogue has a to hit of oh...+5/+5 (could probably get it a bit higher with tweaking). He has a ~43% chance to land one hit and get sneak attack bonus dice, versus a 35% chance to land a hit with a single attack at +7.

No. You only attack with the main hand weapon once. You only get the bonus attacks when full attacking. The ability you're describing is part of the fighter TWF archetype and he gets it around level 11 or so.

Edit: So for reference, I believe you still take penalties even if you don't get the bonus attack. So you'd be hitting 25% of the time to hit 35% and you wouldn't get Two handed weapon strength bonuses or anything like that.

Fair enough. But the maths is still better if the rogue is allowed to full attack (which is probably every round after the first).


Question wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Question wrote:

IIRC, if you are TWF, you can move and attack once with each weapon right?

Let's say target has AC 20 and the Rogue has a to hit of oh...+5/+5 (could probably get it a bit higher with tweaking). He has a ~43% chance to land one hit and get sneak attack bonus dice, versus a 35% chance to land a hit with a single attack at +7.

No. You only attack with the main hand weapon once. You only get the bonus attacks when full attacking. The ability you're describing is part of the fighter TWF archetype and he gets it around level 11 or so.

Edit: So for reference, I believe you still take penalties even if you don't get the bonus attack. So you'd be hitting 25% of the time to hit 35% and you wouldn't get Two handed weapon strength bonuses or anything like that.

Fair enough. But the maths is still better if the rogue is allowed to full attack (which is probably every round after the first).

No its not. You're only taking the -2 to hit into account.

By level 12 a +4 weapon is 4000 less gold than 2 +3's. You're out bypassing a dr type and out a -1 to hit. Plus the -2 you normally need to hit. You're either going agile which will add your dex to damage but losing out another to hit or being horrible there too. You've already traded out a feat for this.

So you're looking at a -3 maybe -4 from another rogue of your type.

Edit: Then consider you're already a medium BAB so you're out 3 from the full BAB which Ac's are moderately built for (first one should pretty much always hit, 2nd most of the time 3rd is iffy, 4th will be bleh when you get it)

So you're lower BAB with a fighting style lower to hit, with lower enchants and less ability to bypass DR, whose not adding his attack modifier to damage or is missing out on more chance to hit.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Question wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Question wrote:

IIRC, if you are TWF, you can move and attack once with each weapon right?

Let's say target has AC 20 and the Rogue has a to hit of oh...+5/+5 (could probably get it a bit higher with tweaking). He has a ~43% chance to land one hit and get sneak attack bonus dice, versus a 35% chance to land a hit with a single attack at +7.

No. You only attack with the main hand weapon once. You only get the bonus attacks when full attacking. The ability you're describing is part of the fighter TWF archetype and he gets it around level 11 or so.

Edit: So for reference, I believe you still take penalties even if you don't get the bonus attack. So you'd be hitting 25% of the time to hit 35% and you wouldn't get Two handed weapon strength bonuses or anything like that.

Fair enough. But the maths is still better if the rogue is allowed to full attack (which is probably every round after the first).

No its not. You're only taking the -2 to hit into account.

By level 12 a +4 weapon is 4000 less gold than 2 +3's. You're out bypassing a dr type and out a -1 to hit. Plus the -2 you normally need to hit. You're either going agile which will add your dex to damage but losing out another to hit or being horrible there too. You've already traded out a feat for this.

So you're looking at a -3 maybe -4 from another rogue of your type.

Edit: Then consider you're already a medium BAB so you're out 3 from the full BAB which Ac's are moderately built for (first one should pretty much always hit, 2nd most of the time 3rd is iffy, 4th will be bleh when you get it)

So you're lower BAB with a fighting style lower to hit, with lower enchants and less ability to bypass DR, whose not adding his attack modifier to damage or is missing out on more chance to hit.

Agreed, TWF is always a trap.


Assuming_Control wrote:
Agreed, TWF is always a trap.

The ranger can pull it off because he can just take it as free feats and not have to meet the dex requirements. Just pump your strength as normal and you won't be too far behind in damage.

Anyone else, the loss on to hit, damage with mobility, ability to bypass DR, etc just isn't worth it.

Liberty's Edge

Rogues do TWF just fine...in fact, they do get as much out of it as anybody does...and you can get a buttload out of it...

Not everything has DR. TWF is really only that effective with the adds to it.

It can beat out THF, for a rogue. It doesn't every time...but it definitely can. I spent too long on the old CharOp board over at WoTC during 3.0/3.5 to not understand that.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Assuming_Control wrote:
Agreed, TWF is always a trap.

The ranger can pull it off because he can just take it as free feats and not have to meet the dex requirements. Just pump your strength as normal and you won't be too far behind in damage.

Anyone else, the loss on to hit, damage with mobility, ability to bypass DR, etc just isn't worth it.

eh, I guess. I'd still rather just take archery style and use a greatsword or something. That way you've got ranged combat covered, and you're still going to be really mean up-close.


Assuming_Control wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Assuming_Control wrote:
Agreed, TWF is always a trap.

The ranger can pull it off because he can just take it as free feats and not have to meet the dex requirements. Just pump your strength as normal and you won't be too far behind in damage.

Anyone else, the loss on to hit, damage with mobility, ability to bypass DR, etc just isn't worth it.

eh, I guess. I'd still rather just take archery style and use a greatsword or something. That way you've got ranged combat covered, and you're still going to be really mean up-close.

If you go archery why would you bother with a greatsword? :P You can shoot in melee after level 6 or so with no penalties or AOO's


EldonG wrote:

Rogues do TWF just fine...in fact, they do get as much out of it as anybody does...and you can get a buttload out of it...

Not everything has DR. TWF is really only that effective with the adds to it.

It can beat out THF, for a rogue. It doesn't every time...but it definitely can. I spent too long on the old CharOp board over at WoTC during 3.0/3.5 to not understand that.

Except this isn't 3.5 and things have AC and HP inflation. Everyone else has had damage and to hit buffs to compensate. The rogue has gotten none of this. He is now subpar at damage dealing because everyone else was buffed significantly and he was left alone.

Liberty's Edge

I built Sherwood to 15th level, because that's where he really comes into his own:

Sherwood the Sanguine

Spoiler:

Male Human rogue 15
TN medium humanoid (human)
Init +11; Senses Perception +19,
Languages Common, Elven
AC 31, touch 20, flat-footed 31
hp 95 (15HD)
Fort +9, Ref +19, Will +9, +5 Reflex to avoid traps
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +5, Uncanny Dodge,
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee dagger +2 (adamantine/speed) +21/+16/+11 (1d4+2/17-20)
Ranged dagger +2 (adamantine/speed/thrown) +21/+16/+11 (1d4+3/17-20)
Melee dagger +3 (adamantine/speed) +22/+17/+12 (1d4+4/17-20)
Ranged dagger +3 (adamantine/speed/thrown) +22/+17/+12 (1d4+4/17-20)
Ranged shortbow +2 (composite/strength rating+1) +20/+15/+10 (1d6+3/x3)
Face 5 ft. Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +11; CMB +12; CMD 32
Atk Options Crippling Strike, Hunter's Surprise, Powerful Sneak, Sneak Attack 8d6,
Special Actions Opportunist,
Magic Item Prepared Spell List Abilities Str 12, Dex 25, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12
Special Qualities Bonus Feat, Bonus Rogue Talent (6x), Fast Stealth, Skilled, Surprise Attack, Trapfinding, , , , , ,
Feats Armor Proficiency, Light, Bleeding Critical, Combat Reflexes, Critical Focus, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical (Dagger), Improved Initiative, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Paired Opportunists, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Dagger)
Skills Acrobatics +23, Appraise +19, Bluff +1, Climb -1, Craft (Untrained) +1, Diplomacy +1, Disable Device +30, Disguise +1, Escape Artist +23, Fly +5, Heal +1, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +19, Knowledge (Local) +19, Perception +19, Perception (Trapfinding) +26, Perform (Untrained) +1, Ride +5, Sense Motive +19, Stealth +23, Survival +1, Swim -1, Use Magic Device +19,
Possessions amulet of natural armor +2; dagger +2 (adamantine/speed); dagger +3 (adamantine/speed); ring of invisibility; ring of protection +3; belt of incredible dexterity +4; celestial armor; cloak of resistance +3; slippers of spider climbing; Handy Haversack ; Shortbow +2 (Composite/Strength Rating+1) ; Birthmark You were born with a strange birthmark that looks very similar to the holy symbol of the god you chose to worship later in life. You gain a +2 trait bonus on all saving throws against charm and compulsion effects as a result.
Bonus Feat Humans select one extra feat at 1st level.
Bonus Rogue Talent (6x) The human gains +1/6 of a new rogue talent.
Crippling Strike (Ex) You can sneak attack opponents with such precision that your blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of your sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage.
Evasion (Ex) You can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If you make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage. Evasion can only be used if you are wearing light armor or no armor. If you are helpless, you do not gain the benefit of evasion.
Fast Stealth (Ex) This ability allows you to move at full speed using Stealth without penalty.
Hunter's Surprise (Ex) Once per day, a rogue with this talent can designate a single enemy she is adjacent to as her prey. Until the end of her next turn, she can add her sneak attack damage to all attacks made against her prey, even if she is not flanking it or it is not flat-footed.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex) You can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack you by flanking you, unless the attacker is a rogue of at least level 19.
Killer You made your first kill at a very young age and found the task of war or murder to your liking. You deal additional damage equal to your weapon's critical hit modifier when you score a successful critical hit with a weapon; this additional damage is added to the final total, and is not multiplied by the critical hit multiple itself. This extra damage is a trait bonus.
Opportunist (Ex) Once per round, you can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as an attack of opportunity for that round. Even if you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can't use the Opportunist ability more than once per round.
Powerful Sneak (Ex) Whenever a rogue with this talent takes a full attack action, she can elect to take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls until the start of her next turn. If an attack during this time is a sneak attack, she treats all 1s on the sneak attack damage dice as 2s.
Skilled Humans gain an additional skill rank at first level and one additional rank whenever they gain a level.
Sneak Attack (Ex) If you can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from your attack, you can strike a vital spot for extra damage. Your attack deals 8d6 points of extra damage anytime your target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC, or when you flank your target. Should you score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, you can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. You cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty. You must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. You cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Surprise Attack (Ex) During the surprise round, opponents are always considered flat-footed to you, even if they have acted.
Trapfinding (Ex) You add +7 to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks. You can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magical traps.
Trap Sense (Ex) You gain a +5 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps, and a +5 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) You can react to danger before your senses would normally allow you to do so. You cannot be caught flat-footed, nor do you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. You still lose your Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. You can still lose your Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against you.

I don't think he does too badly.

Edit: No clue why it makes his primary hand last. Strange quirk of PCGen. It also doesn't list the extra attacks from speed.


TWF is a trap, two-handing is never a trap.

Liberty's Edge

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
TWF is a trap, two-handing is never a trap.

That's nice rhetoric, but not always true.

Silver Crusade

EldonG wrote:

I built Sherwood to 15th level, because that's where he really comes into his own:

Sherwood the Sanguine
** spoiler omitted **...

Wow you fell into all the traps with that character. You went TWF and you thought Powerful Sneak was worth taking. Also, I'm fairly certain your 2 speed weapons don't stack. And if you were going to go with daggers, why not give up trap finding and take the knife master archetype?

But just for comparison's sake, what his DPR against the average CR15 monster?


No HeroLab, but here is a guy I have been working on that is functionally not that unlike the orc thug someone else posted.

Felmar Featherhammer
Level 9 Scout Thug, +15 to hit (reach) for 12d6+37 nonleathal + status, 31 AC. Target struck is Sickened (4 rounds) and Shaken (50+ rounds): -4 to all rolls, -2 weapon damage.

Still not sure about the level 9 feat. Any suggestions for improvement appreciated.

Spoiler:

Level 9 Aasimar Rogue (Scout Thug)
STR 22 +6
DEX 14 +2
CON 14 +2
INT 7 -2
WIS 8 -1
CHA 18 +4
(20 point buy, Angel-blooded, variant 64 selected, bonuses at 4 to STR and 8 to CON)

Items: Mithral Breastplate +2 (4200+4000g), Merciful Dwarven Longhammer +2 (18370g), Belt of Giant’s Strength +2 (4000g), Headband of Alluring Charisma +2 (4000g), Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (2000g), Cloak of Resistance +2 (5000g), Ring of Intimidate (+5) (2500g) [44070/46k]

62 HP, AC 21 (+1 dodge per sneak attack die), 30 ft Base Speed, +4 Initiative

Skills (6/Level): Max Intimidate to get +27 (9+3+6+4+5) and a +4 racial on Demoralize

-- Traits, Feats, and Rogue Talents --
Traits: Armor Master and Reactionary
CL1. Exotic Weapon Proficency: Dwarven Longhammer
R1. Sneak Attack: 1d6, Frightening
RT2. Combat Trick: Enforcer: Free action Intimidate to Demoralize upon nonlethal damage
R2. Evasion: No damage when Save for Half vs Reflex
R3. Sneak Attack: 2d6; Brutal Beating
CL3. Sap Adept: +2 damage per Sneak Attack die when nonlethal
RT4. Strong Impression Strength bonus to Intimidate checks
R4. Scout’s Charge: deal Sneak Attack on Charge of 10 ft
R5. Sneak Attack: 3d6
CL5. Sap Master: double Sneak Attack dice on nonlethal damage
RT6. Weapon Training
R7. Sneak Attack: 4d6
CL7. Power Attack: -2 attack for +6 damage
R8. Skirmisher: deal Sneak Attack on first attack if you move 10 ft
RT8. Offensive Defense: +1 dodge to AC per Sneak Attack die
R9. Sneak Attack: 5d6
CL9. Vital Strike or Improved Initiative ???

Attack bonus +15 (+6 BAB, +6 Str, +1 Weapon Training, +2 magic) [+2 charge][-2 Power Attack]

Nonleathal 12d6+37+status
Lethal w/ SA 7d6+17
Basic Melee 3d6+17

(edited to add Name and status to enemy hit pre-spoiler and clean things up a bit)


I'm gonna say about 32 average AC for a CR 15.

The outsiders will average probably 30 or so but then you hit the dragons and their AC starts spiking into the 35-37 range.

All in all your character will have about a 50% miss chance on their first iteratives.


EldonG wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
TWF is a trap, two-handing is never a trap.
That's nice rhetoric, but not always true.

It isn't rhetoric at all, the Greeks and Romans would not consider it fit to be considered thus.

What I am saying is that twf can really screw you, especially at some levels (go two one-handed weapons too early, try to light twf against a nice ac with dr); but the systems 3.0-PF really like two-handing. The damage bonus is nice, there is the history of power attack to consider. Two handed weapons are really beefy and scary (greatsword fighter mows through monk, even if the fighter cops some hits. It can go the same way if its sword and board vs greatsword. If the ac is not super high, the damage will tell).

Two-handers, they are loved by the very rules. The cool polearms with some nifty uses are also two handed. Falchion is two handed, as is the greataxe.

Liberty's Edge

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
EldonG wrote:

I built Sherwood to 15th level, because that's where he really comes into his own:

Sherwood the Sanguine
** spoiler omitted **...

Wow you fell into all the traps with that character. You went TWF and you thought Powerful Sneak was worth taking. Also, I'm fairly certain your 2 speed weapons don't stack. And if you were going to go with daggers, why not give up trap finding and take the knife master archetype?

But just for comparison's sake, what his DPR against the average CR15 monster?

Figure it out if you think it's important. It's my assumption that the speed weapon allows one extra attack with that weapon in a full attack, so it's not a matter of stacking.

Yes, I've built a character that makes use of all those things people say 'don't work', and yet...I'll bet he does fine.

PS: He took Powerful Sneak on the way to Deadly Sneak...he does a buttload of SA dice. What's more, the point is that Rogue works...not Knife Master.

Liberty's Edge

3.5 Loyalist wrote:
EldonG wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
TWF is a trap, two-handing is never a trap.
That's nice rhetoric, but not always true.

It isn't rhetoric at all, the Greeks and Romans would not consider it fit to be considered thus.

What I am saying is that twf can really screw you, especially at some levels (go two one-handed weapons too early, try to light twf against a nice ac with dr); but the systems 3.0-PF really like two-handing. The damage bonus is nice, there is the history of power attack to consider. Two handed weapons are really beefy and scary (greatsword fighter mows through monk, even if the fighter cops some hits. It can go the same way if its sword and board vs greatsword. If the ac is not super high, the damage will tell).

Two-handers, they are loved by the very rules. The cool polearms with some nifty uses are also two handed. Falchion is two handed, as is the greataxe.

It definitely can screw you. But...it doesn't always. I've always loved THF...

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