Just a thing Covent. When you divide sneak attack feats from rogue feats you should include ninja tricks that modify it. Reading your rogue 2.0 RAW someone could take ninja talents like pressure points and use togheter sneak attack feats since now they are two different things.
Obviously this is not true if someone consider your rogue RAI.
The other major conclusion was that the build couldn't kill things. A sneak attacking, pouncing allosaurus was not going to reliably take things down in one round, which was kind of necessary for a sneak attacking solo character.
- Try a sneak attacking/pouncing velociraptor.
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Just a thing Covent. When you divide sneak attack feats from rogue feats you should include ninja tricks that modify it. Reading your rogue 2.0 RAW someone could take ninja talents like pressure points and use togheter sneak attack feats since now they are two different things.
Obviously this is not true if someone consider your rogue RAI.
Ah this is very true.
I will add a caveat for this thank you.
I am going to run some numbers on a scaling to hit bonus vs a re-roll mechanic.
I will post some results when I have them.
-all manouvers feats work this way: if you don't have feats, manouver is made at -4 but don't provoke attacks of opportunity. The feats erase the penality, but gives no bonus on the check. When you reach +6 BAB it triggers the effect of the improved version, but no bonus on check.
Wait, so combat maneuvers are even worse? Why?
This houserule punishes those who want to invest in a given maneuver and don't really give any benefit for those who don't.A CMB check at -4 might as well not exist. At higher levels, CMD is hard enough to overcome even with the +2 from Improved/Greater Maneuver feats. Take that bonus away, and it basically neuters any maneuver-focused build.
-No siege engines feats three. All is made with knowledge engineering.
Lol. I didn't even know there was a feat for using siege engines. Who ever thought that'd be a worthwhile investment?
"Hey, you know what might be a cool feat? Give a +2 or something to attacks made with catapults. I'm sure that will be extremelly useful!"
We should just combine the Fighter and Rogue into one class, then they can do stuff out of combat and in combat ...TBH I thought the same thing. Would fix many of the problems I have with both classes, that Fighters can't do jack (without hefty investment) out of combat, and Rogues can't do jack in combat.
Rename him the Tactician or Command or some such, he's a skilled, highly trained professional soldier.
You know... now that I think about it, turning gestault PF Rogue // PF Fighter into a single class would actually be pretty awesome.
Note to self: Next time I start a campaign, include the "Soldier" class as described above.
Let the fighter have 4, or even 6 skill points, depending on the type. Revamp the feats so they're not so onerous for certain styles, and it would be good. A fighter shouldn't need to be stealthy and spot traps. That's the rogue's job.
Give the rogue full BAB, and it would be different enough from the ninja, ranger, bard, etc., to be an exciting class: A self-taught kid from the mean streets, who fights as well as any warrior; not a schooled sort, like a bard, ninja or a ranger.
Fighters and rogues should also not need to multiclass into both to be awesome. Good feats and talents, some neat single class-only features, and it's really cool.
We should just combine the Fighter and Rogue into one class, then they can do stuff out of combat and in combat ...TBH I thought the same thing. Would fix many of the problems I have with both classes, that Fighters can't do jack (without hefty investment) out of combat, and Rogues can't do jack in combat.
Rename him the Tactician or Commando or some such, he's a skilled, highly trained professional soldier.
Yes, while I'm sure it's not the ideal fix, it's probably the quickest to explain and easiest to add on to a published adventure.
I'd probably do a straight gestalt Fighter//Rogue, with the exception that they'd have to choose between a Bonus Feat and a Rogue Talent at each even level, applying some of the 'fixes' to Rogue talents that have been mentioned here (ie, removing the times per day limit on the EX Rogue talents).
Then probably do something similar for the Monk with the Psychic Warrior or Soulknife to do something for the other "weak" class.
sneak attack with full BAB does ridiculous amounts of damage. I think it it beats a ranger with his favored enemy bonuses by a good amount, and closes in on a smiting paladin
sneak attack with full BAB does ridiculous amounts of damage. I think it it beats a ranger with his favored enemy bonuses by a good amount, and closes in on a smiting paladin
Well, it does require gaining an advantageous position, the number of dice could be reduced if it was too extreme an amount of damage relative to other martials.
First level, then 3rd level and every 3rd level after? Every 4th level?
That's not necessarily a bad thing Wraithstrike. The whole point here is creating a character that is skilled and a great fighter.
Paladins and Rangers do have other things going for them as well (Bonds, Spells, etc) although it does require a close look.
I saw no reason to play a fighter, rogue, or ranger after that. Flanking is not that difficult, assuming you have a decent partner as a player.
edit: I think the rogue needs to be better at his noncombat abilities. It does decent damage. The rogue talents could definitely be improved upon.
Just a thing Covent. When you divide sneak attack feats from rogue feats you should include ninja tricks that modify it. Reading your rogue 2.0 RAW someone could take ninja talents like pressure points and use togheter sneak attack feats since now they are two different things.
Obviously this is not true if someone consider your rogue RAI.Ah this is very true.
I will add a caveat for this thank you.
I am going to run some numbers on a scaling to hit bonus vs a re-roll mechanic.
I will post some results when I have them.
I made a fast check on chance to hit and average dmg of a barbarian and a rogue.
No magic items, barbarian using power attack (high level). Barbarian 18 str, rogue 14 str and 18 dex.First attack of barbarian with power attack: +28 to hit, +30 bonus damage.
Rogue, with 2 weapon fighting: +17 to hit, avg damage 37,5 is he can sneak attack with every hit.
Why does the Rogue only have -1 to-hit on the Barbarian if he's using TWF? He should be behind by at least 3 (-2 TWF, -1 BaB).
-11. Barbarian use power attack, rage and reckless abandon.
Rogue use... well, he can use twf but has no steroids.
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Okay, I thought about it for a while, and I think I've come up with a decent idea on how to give rogues a helping hand. I haven't crunched all the numbers, though, so if anyone has any feedback I'd be interested to hear it.
Creatures are flat-footed against attacks of opportunity.
-Rogues no longer need TWF to increase their attacks per round, Combat Reflexes will work as well (and Rogues already like having good DEX)
-Supports the image of rogues as "opportunistic"
-The whole point of AoO's is that you can't defend yourself properly while taking certain actions, so why wouldn't you be flat-footed?
-Side Effect: Monks benefit slightly due to their high flat-footed AC.
-Rogues wear light armor and frequently have to reposition in combat, thus this hurts them as much as it helps them.
-Full-BAB classes with polearms and Combat Reflexes will still hit harder (and more reliably) than a longspear rogue
-Gunslingers and archers are randomly nerfed, as they no longer get to add their best stat to their AC vs. AoO's (and still can't attack an adjacent enemy without provoking)
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Wow, ok still reading through all of this but from what I've read I've started to make a list of things to improve the rogue in general that wouldn't require an archetype and would be more of an errata change then a complete over haul
1.) Sneak attack: if a rogue catches an enemy flat-footed they double the number of sneak attack die used for damage
Reasoning: This allows the rogue to really hit like a rogue and makes sneak attacks actually work like the stealth kills most people would like to have happen. It also creates a higher reward for the risk since you will want to get that stealth but will have to set it up a bit and lets the rogue player show off a little bit. Finally it could help speed up those solo scout and stealth missions and make them more viable since you can now legitimately send the rogue forward to knock out a group of guards and succeed so long as he's got the mindset to do it and potentially escape if he gets seen. This is also balanced since encounters with higher tier creatures (mini bosses, BBEG, and other above CR encounters) will just be severely wounded, break his stealth, and fight back so your rogue learns to prioritize easy unaware targets.
2.)Feint: Just make it an innate ability for the rogue that progresses with levels. We all want to sneak attack when we are a rogue and giving them the ability to just make that feint action quickly and painlessly without having to invest the feat just makes sense and gives the rogue the leg up on other classes that might for some reason want those feats. Hell you could allow them to still take said feats and just help them advance more quickly. Have a model like "At 3rd level a rogue can feint as a move action, a swift at 9th, and a free at 12th."
3.)Readjust the rogue talents limits: Remove the once a day requirements from most of the aforementioned talents and turn them into either once a round for things like assault leader or a build time (say 1-10 mins) for things like camouflage.
4.)Maybe create some quick traps: Now grant it this might be more of an issue with traps but creating some quick to construct and set up traps like tripwires, bell traps, or even pits could help the rogue basically create passive camp defenses as well as allow him to use trap sense more offensively since you could start assuming enemy camps will use similar set ups.
So what do you guys think?
Finally it could help speed up those solo scout and stealth missions and make them more viable since you can now legitimately send the rogue forward to knock out a group of guards and succeed so long as he's got the mindset to do it and potentially escape if he gets seen.
3.)Readjust the rogue talents limits: Remove the once a day requirements from most of the aforementioned talents and turn them into either once a round for things like assault leader or a build time (say 1-10 mins) for things like camouflage.
1. I HATE solo scout and stealth missions . I am there to play, not listen to another player play.
3.Like I mentioned they already have a good mechanic for this with wizards & sorc, with their 3+ Stat use abilities. Fits into PF fine.
Someone noticed that rogue (that can't cast spells) have worst hit throws than all class except mage, witch and sorcerer? Every other classes got at least same BAB but can self buff (or buff the party). This is not good :D
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Finally it could help speed up those solo scout and stealth missions and make them more viable since you can now legitimately send the rogue forward to knock out a group of guards and succeed so long as he's got the mindset to do it and potentially escape if he gets seen.
3.)Readjust the rogue talents limits: Remove the once a day requirements from most of the aforementioned talents and turn them into either once a round for things like assault leader or a build time (say 1-10 mins) for things like camouflage.
1. I HATE solo scout and stealth missions . I am there to play, not listen to another player play.
3.Like I mentioned they already have a good mechanic for this with wizards & sorc, with their 3+ Stat use abilities. Fits into PF fine.
The problem is that every player gets solo time pretty regularly, be it the party face getting to diplomacy the party out of trouble, the fighter owning a bar fight or gladiatorial encounter, the cleric showing off the power of his faith, or the wizard using his high knowledge skills to fill in the party on the ancient arcane ritual that is being enacted to ruin the world (or using some spell to change the game dynamic in some way like plane shift, or a blind cast teleport). Either way all the other classes really get to show off what makes them them yet the rogues don't really get a chance to shine as currently written. One of the biggest issues with it is that even when done well the stealth encounter takes forever and leaves the rest of the party sitting around and even the most interested party ends up losing interest before it's completely done. The upside of the dmg boost is that it makes well thought stealth combat slightly less deadly, more rewarding for thought out play, and makes the whole encounter much quicker to run since the rogue can one shot the individuals rather then having to figure out how to have multiple rounds of combat with each individual without getting caught.
Certain other classes can still "tag along" on Stealth missions should they choose. I've seen Rogue and Ranger more often than I've seen Rogue alone, honestly.
The problem is that every player gets solo time pretty regularly, be it the party face getting to diplomacy the party out of trouble, the fighter owning a bar fight or gladiatorial encounter, the cleric showing off the power of his faith, or the wizard using his high knowledge skills to fill in the party on the ancient arcane ritual...
Even if a Rogue is OHKO'ing enemies, stealth missions are a great deal longer than any of these... since they can contain aspects of all of them (combat, bluffing guards, climbs, searches, trap disarming, knowledge checks, etc). It's still a conceptual problem, and best not to assume it's going on.
One of the ideas I bandied about was letting Rogues inflict Conditions when Sneak Attacking an opponent that wasn't aware of them. The conditions list was made up like Paladin's Mercies, with worse ones accessible by higher level/Sneak Attack dice. Since a penalized enemy affects everyone's effectiveness, putting the Rogue into position becomes a self-interested priority for everyone, and the Rogue gets to feel awesome. Combined with a variant of the "Vicious Opportunist" above, it sounds like a good set-up, but I've got no playtest data to offer.
I'm testing the Covent's rogue 2.0. Archetype Thug and Scout. I use the enforcer feats. With a sneak attack i can make the target shacken and sickened. According with the rogue 2.0 of Covent i can give him a -2 to hit for 1d4 rounds (with normal rules, can work the point pressure ninja talent).
Your argument is now that bards are literally incapable of using normal speaking volume.
I'd type a further response but honestly I think that the sheer fact that that's actually your argument is a better counterargument than anything I could come up with.
and it had peculiar effects?Versatile Performance doesn't have peculiar effects and isn't magical. It's literally "Hey, all that training I did learning to talk good lets me talk to people good".
To that, I will allow the following to respond, a man by the name of Kevin Payne:
Your point has a lot of merit. Especially like the comparison with a wizard prepping a spell--what a bard is doing may not be loud and wild, but it will definitely be noticeable, just like a wizard warming up a fireball spell.
However, only in modern America would people think that "performing" equals "being loud". A good performer knows that it is far more powerful to be quiet than to be loud. And voice projection does NOT equal "being loud" either. Nor does "performing" equate always to the kind of histrionics one sees (for example) on the average rock concert stage (or opera stage, for that matter .
A bard is not likely to go into a "grand performance" in the middle of a dungeon. He is going to be subtle and low profile if he is any good at all. Being a bard is not just about being loud, showy, and obnoxious. There's a place for that, for sure, but no bard worth his salt is going to endanger himself and the rest of his party by wailing out "Smoke on the Water" and busting up his guitar in a situation calling for stealth and caution. Certainly nothing in any DnD edition I've seen requires bards to be stupid about their skills.
So I'd say you're partly right and partly wrong. I hope you encourage your bards to have "situation appropriate" versions of their performances ready to go at all times and nail them mercilessly when they "choose poorly"!
He went on to say:
Well they are idiots if they think they can do full bore performances in dangerous sistuations without potential consequences. Sometimes, in spite of the desire to DO SOMETHING the best thing to do is STFU!
A note: as a voice professional and teacher, I know that voice projection a) is not exclusive to theater and b) has little or nothing to do with loudness.
On the other hand, even when using a (stage) whisper, the point is that it should *penetrate* and be heard at the back of the concert hall or theater.
I *would* grant that if the bard were singing something to grant protection just to the party then he coudl sing softly enough that only the party could hear him. OTOH, have you ever watched someone sing? It's pretty distinctive visual action, just as casting a spell is distinctive action--even if you're being quiet about it.
Yup Scott, you're right, overall. Burn their bardic butts.
Piccolo, Is this still about Versatile Performance? Because if it's, you argument makes no sense.
A Bard using Versatile Performance is not actually performing.
He's not being any louder than any other person using diplomacy or acrobatics. He's not singing, dancing or playing drums. He merely uses his perform bonus instead of the actual skill.
Bardic Performances have different components; some have both auditory and visual components, while others have auditory, or visual, or either. Inspire Courage is an example where you may use either auditory or visual component, so it's perfectly okay to inspire courage by quietly dancing, chanting a dirge, playing an instrument, singing, or miming.
You don't even need ranks in the Perform you're using. Perform is untrained. Your power comes from your class ability, not from your skill ranks. A character with Perform (Sing) can still beat a drum.
It's fairly similar to a wizard with 11 Intelligence. It doesn't make sense to some people, but he may cast first-level spells. It's sub-optimal, but the fact that he gets his benefits from Intelligence usually does the trick of making smart wizards. Similarly, since bards get Versatile Performance, that usually does the trick of making sure bards are actually good at performing.
Here's how we handle "scout missions".
Have the party set the distance between scouts and noise box PCs, so that when they are rolling against enemy perception they are rolling at the same bonus. Then, when the fight breaks out, allow the scout to position anywhere within that distance if the noise boxes.
That's all you need to make stealth help with flanking. If the enemy fails to notice either group, allow the scout to fall back and let the party buff fore a round or two.
Here's how we handle "scout missions".
Have the party set the distance between scouts and noise box PCs, so that when they are rolling against enemy perception they are rolling at the same bonus. Then, when the fight breaks out, allow the scout to position anywhere within that distance if the noise boxes.
That's all you need to make stealth help with flanking. If the enemy fails to notice either group, allow the scout to fall back and let the party buff fore a round or two.
I'm not sure I understand what happens exactly.
So, say you've got a 6th level party, and the Rogue is the only one who has invested in stealth. His party-mate is a Paladin with 12 DEX wearing Magic Fullplate he probably has a stealth score of -4. This puts him 180 feet out in front to mitigate the 18 point difference.
I get that if someone else in the party fails their check the rogue basically gets to position himself anywhere on the battle map he wants. But what happens if the Rogue is the one who fails a stealth check?
I get that if someone else in the party fails their check the rogue basically gets to position himself anywhere on the battle map he wants. But what happens if the Rogue is the one who fails a stealth check?
Then I might do something with the number of rounds until his backup arrives... but my procedure is a little fuzzier than that. I tend to feel it through depending on what works for the party.
Part of the reason for collapsing it into a single PC-side roll is that the scout PC is almost always making his stealth checks by a healthy margin. if that's not the case, then this might be less helpful.
I wish I could game with some of you. These forums on rogues having trouble or sucking confuse me. The rogue my groups make never have trouble.
One of my best fight style characters is a rogue focused on combat. They only time he actually has trouble is when he's out numbered. Even then that was only at low levels.
I wish I could game with some of you. These forums on rogues having trouble or sucking confuse me. The rogue my groups make never have trouble.
One of my best fight style characters is a rogue focused on combat. They only time he actually has trouble is when he's out numbered. Even then that was only at low levels.
You know, simply casting Invisibility and Message on a rogue and letting him scout a few rooms ahead really makes him useful. He's not likely to get spotted, and if he is, he can tell you immediately.
If he isn't spotted, you know what's around the corner, at the cost of a 2nd level spell and a cantrip.
Buffing rogues is cheap and very effective. I'm surprised many parties don't seem to do that, given the attitudes here.
Team game. Buff the rogue for scouting, buff the fighter for the fight.
You know, simply casting Invisibility and Message on a rogue and letting him scout a few rooms ahead really makes him useful. He's not likely to get spotted, and if he is, he can tell you immediately.
Except you could do the same to Bards, Inquisitors and Ninjas, and it would be even more effective. In fact, those classes have their own spells, so they wouldn't be a drain on the resources of other party members.
Buffing rogues is cheap and very effective. I'm surprised many parties don't do that, given the attitudes here.
Not as cheap or effective as it's buffing Inquisitors, Bards an Ninjas. The point is not that Rogues are useless (they aren't), the point is that they are not nearly as effective as other classes with similar roles.
Team game. Buff the rogue for scouting, buff the fighter for the fight.
Exactly because it's a team game, I'd like my fellow team members to contribute more than they cost to the party. I'm not sure Rogues do that as well as any other skill monkey in the game.
I agree. The rogue needs a boost. It falls short of its promise.
Full BAB, and it would rock. That would also differentiate it from the many classes it's inferior to.
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Certain other classes can still "tag along" on Stealth missions should they choose. I've seen Rogue and Ranger more often than I've seen Rogue alone, honestly.
The problem is that every player gets solo time pretty regularly, be it the party face getting to diplomacy the party out of trouble, the fighter owning a bar fight or gladiatorial encounter, the cleric showing off the power of his faith, or the wizard using his high knowledge skills to fill in the party on the ancient arcane ritual...Even if a Rogue is OHKO'ing enemies, stealth missions are a great deal longer than any of these... since they can contain aspects of all of them (combat, bluffing guards, climbs, searches, trap disarming, knowledge checks, etc). It's still a conceptual problem, and best not to assume it's going on.
One of the ideas I bandied about was letting Rogues inflict Conditions when Sneak Attacking an opponent that wasn't aware of them. The conditions list was made up like Paladin's Mercies, with worse ones accessible by higher level/Sneak Attack dice. Since a penalized enemy affects everyone's effectiveness, putting the Rogue into position becomes a self-interested priority for everyone, and the Rogue gets to feel awesome. Combined with a variant of the "Vicious Opportunist" above, it sounds like a good set-up, but I've got no playtest data to offer.
Then I suppose I should rephrase. I feel like this boost would help a rogue expedite those scouting missions as well as make them feel more fun and cinematic rather then stupid and outright suicidal. Now I believe that these things can also help with those longer and more involved stealth missions but on the whole I find that if I'm planning on having one of those events happen in a game I need to treat it like just that, an event which means it will take far more time and should have a way of engaging the rest of the party as well. Infiltrating the fort missions such as those mean that I also give my party some time to prepare mentally out of game and strategically in game. If they have to infiltrate a fort, sneak out of prison, assassinate the king, etc. they will know about it and I make sure to give them in game time to prepare since as we all know good stealth work like that irl requires time to prep with the party getting together what gear they will need as well as getting their mind right for the task at hand. Even the aforementioned prison break should be given time for the player to collect "supplies" which can be everything from improvised weapons they've modified from the mess hall to getting in good with the local prison gangs in order to say start a riot to cover their escape or even steal back the wizards spell book or smuggle in the witches familiar. Now you can put a timer on these kinds of events if you want but the rule usually is that it should be used to help make the narrative more compelling and if it feels like it's just getting in the way don't use it, you'll find much better ways to get them moving.
I agree. The rogue needs a boost. It falls short of its promise.
Full BAB, and it would rock. That would also differentiate it from the many classes it's inferior to.
It does;t need more damage, the rogue needs to be able to survive more than a round in combat.
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It does;t need more damage, the rogue needs to be able to survive more than a round in combat.I agree. The rogue needs a boost. It falls short of its promise.
Full BAB, and it would rock. That would also differentiate it from the many classes it's inferior to.
I don't think they need full BAB so much as more effective ways to cause a target to become flat-footed. The rogues primary damage ability revolves around it yet rogues are actually sub optimal in executing feints and quickly falling back into stealth then classes like the fighter (who could pick up all the feint abilities through their bonus feats) or the wizard who can drop spells like vanish, invisibility, or even obscuring mist. Fix this and you will help mitigate the problem.
Personally I just say give them an ability that allows them to feint as a move and then let it become progressively less action expensive as they level till you get to a point where they can do it as a free action once a round. This way they can use it without cutting into their action economy, still have a risk of failing, and keeps them competitive since you are literally denying your target their dex mod which just from an objective viewpoint is often one of the most buffed stats in the game as is and therefore taking away a large chunk of their AC.
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You know, simply casting Invisibility and Message on a rogue and letting him scout a few rooms ahead really makes him useful. He's not likely to get spotted, and if he is, he can tell you immediately.
The effective part of this equation is the spell invisibility, not the rogue. The wizard could just as easily turn herself invisible and peek around the corner herself - after all, wizards have loads of skill points and want pretty good dex.
Before PF Bards already had better chance to hit than a rogue, but using performance required a standard action. Now they can just use movement or swift at some point, and go in buffed. So the main point is: if your party need a stealth class, why you should take a rogue? Ranger is stronger and can have a companion, bards got very good buffs and a great number of options. Rogue can stab, but their chance to hit is lower than all except full arcane casters.
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I wish I could game with some of you. These forums on rogues having trouble or sucking confuse me. The rogue my groups make never have trouble.
One of my best fight style characters is a rogue focused on combat. They only time he actually has trouble is when he's out numbered. Even then that was only at low levels.
It is not so much that a rogue can not work in a game. The issue is that other classes or combinations of classes can do it better. Many people don't think about playing class X. They come up with a concept, and concepts that used to be rogue territory are now better done by other classes.