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Hi All -
As I have been playing PFS, I have noticed issues that would crop up several times by random players at my table. So, I thought I would start a thread with the intent to bring to light common misconceptions that players may have unwittingly done.
Feel free to add any that you have encountered in your travels as well
The below cases are some of those witnessed examples:
1. Produce flame – is not a touch spell, its a range 0' spell
2. Reach weapons – cannot reach an opponent in a diagonal 10’ square (counts as 15’)
3. 5’ step – provokes an AOO when stepping in from a diagonal square 10’ to 5’ (counts as 15’ to 5’)
4. Mage armor, shield, or other protection spells that add armor or shield bonus – do not add to CMD
5. Move enhancement bonus does not stack with monk’s increase movement
6. Move enhancement bonus does stack with Barbarian’s increased movement
7. Anyone can disable a nonmagical traps if they are skilled in disable trap
8. Lunge Feat – additional reach only counts on your turn - doesnt threaten squares when its not your turn
9. Flat-footed/Dexless characters do not add Dex bonus to CMD
10. Reach weapons suffer soft cover penalties when attacking through people
11. Aid another only works if the aiding PC can meet the required DC the primary PC is performing
12. Aid another in combat only works for those that threaten the same opponent
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I don't have the time or inclination to go through the whole list, but you have a couple wrong there.
Just on #1 alone, Produce Flame can me used as a melee touch attack or as a thrown weapon against touch AC.
#2 has similar issues, and I remember a time when I agreed with you, but there are good game reasons why it is not the case (there's a great post about it by James Jacobs).
Might want to double check your complaints.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Good day, Dysfunction.
I did some research a couple months ago, and I agree with your #2 and #3. (I'm not sure what James Jacobs has to say on the matter, but the CRB is pretty specific.) The rest of your post, I'm not sure about.
I am pretty certain, though, that it's not in the right section of the boards. Unless you want to talk about rules that are specific to the PFS organized play environment, this belongs under Rules Question, not PFS.
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um, I think you confuse the reason of this chain.
the above 9 items, are common things i have seen players make the mistake of doing/not doing. and i was reaching out to invite others to post things they have seen at the table.
i did not start this so you would have to take up the mantle of trying to disput them.
however, for both posts above:
for #2, please refer to srd, its right. trust me.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-te mplates
#1, all i was saying is its not a touch spell. its a range 0' spell.
it does not allow you to use a full attack action, and have all of your natural attacks do flame damage.
its a standard action to use either the melee range or thrown range.
#4, all i am saying is that they dont add to your CMD. ive seen several mages try to add mage armor bonus to their cmd and it isnt right.
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Good day, Dysfunction.
I did some research a couple months ago, and I agree with your #2 and #3. (I'm not sure what James Jacobs has to say on the matter, but the CRB is pretty specific.) The rest of your post, I'm not sure about.
I am pretty certain, though, that it's not in the right section of the boards. Unless you want to talk about rules that are specific to the PFS organized play environment, this belongs under Rules Question, not PFS.
fair enough. i was specifically reaching out to the PFS crowd, to see what other common misconceptions have been noticed at the pfs tables.
but, i understand the value of having this under the rules questions - though none of my points are questions, they are observations.
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however, for both posts above:
for #2, please refer to srd, its right. trust me.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-te mplates
Three things.
1 - D20PFSRD is not an official source and should not be treated as such.
2 - Per that link from SKR: "So just because the grid has a square for "15 feet away" and a square for "5 feet away," but no square for "10 feet away," using that corner path doesn't mean you're magically teleporting from 15 feet to 5 feet; you are passing through a 10-foot-radius band around the creature, and therefore you provoke an AOO."
3 - The image supports this statement that reach does extend into the 15" diagonal. The primary reason why is that if it does not, it really screws with people trying to game the system and avoid AOOs.
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for #2, please refer to srd, its right. trust me.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-te mplates
I'm sorry, but any interpretation of reach and movement that allows someone to "game" the system and approach through a diagonal to avoid the AoO is ridiculous.
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i updated my first post to provide additional clarity to the intent of this thread.
as this is not meant as a rules war, its for people to post things that they have seen other people commonly do that are not accurate/correct.
this is only a thread to bring to light common misconceptions that are witnessed at the PFS tables.
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3. 5’ step – provokes an AOO when stepping in from a diagonal square 10’ to 5’ (counts as 15’ to 5’)
Am I missing something here?
A 5-ft step is a 5 ft step. Even on a diagonal the first diagonal of your movement is always 5 ft and the second is 10 ft. So there is never an instance when you only move 5 ft but are charged 10 unless there is something impairing movement (difficult terrain and a few other things).
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Aid another note.
You need to be able to succeed at the skill DC in order to be able to aid. For example, if the party needs to get a DC 20 diplomacy, the guy with the -2 diplomacy CAN NOT provide aid.(side not on this: This is one reason I allow people to roll "aid others" after the guy taking the skill check has rolled. If he has a "24" before you roll the aid - you can't actually provide him a +2 unless you have at least a +6 in the skill.)
Are you sure about that? That's a new one on me.
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Aid another note.
You need to be able to succeed at the skill DC in order to be able to aid. For example, if the party needs to get a DC 20 diplomacy, the guy with the -2 diplomacy CAN NOT provide aid.(side not on this: This is one reason I allow people to roll "aid others" after the guy taking the skill check has rolled. If he has a "24" before you roll the aid - you can't actually provide him a +2 unless you have at least a +6 in the skill.)
Something new! ...where is that in the book?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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same guy also got away with attacking with his whip from behind other party members without taking a cover penalty... and while I'm not 100% clear on how it works, maybe just whips, maybe all reach weapons, but when attacking from behind party members you suffer cover penalties just like an archer would
It's in the combat chapter under "Cover".
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from any corner of your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.
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ok guys, I may be eating my words on this one. Checking the Aid other rules now - but I can recall going thru this not to long ago with someone who pointed it out to me...Aid another note.
You need to be able to succeed at the skill DC in order to be able to aid. For example, if the party needs to get a DC 20 diplomacy, the guy with the -2 diplomacy CAN NOT provide aid.(side not on this: This is one reason I allow people to roll "aid others" after the guy taking the skill check has rolled. If he has a "24" before you roll the aid - you can't actually provide him a +2 unless you have at least a +6 in the skill.)
If you find it, I'll be interested to see it. I have always told people that Aid Another was very much so people who couldn't succeed on their own could still contribute. "No one of you can make the DC 26, but with a little luck, all three of you together might pull it off."
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It makes sense that in additive situations even if you could succeed alone you could still help. After all it is a game about teamwork. Two people shouldering a stuck door add more force and so on even if one could never succeed.
I had an annoying one crop up a while back. GM decided for some reason that failing to Aid Another made your assist target incur the +2 bonus as as a -2 penalty for some reason, then proclaimed that it was actually the real rule despite...well absolutely no evidence whatsoever. Stupid house rules creeping into PFS.
Thinking about it now I'm tempted to make a 7 Strength character with no BAB and go back to non-proficiently assist the bad guys AC with some friends. -2 AC penalties galore. -6 to the die roll should lead to plenty of failure. I could even dual wield one-handed weapons, goodness it's like an automatic success, erm failure.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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3. 5’ step – provokes an AOO when stepping in from a diagonal square 10’ to 5’ (counts as 15’ to 5’)
Am I missing something here?
A 5-ft step is a 5 ft step. Even on a diagonal the first diagonal of your movement is always 5 ft and the second is 10 ft. So there is never an instance when you only move 5 ft but are charged 10 unless there is something impairing movement (difficult terrain and a few other things).
I ran into this claim as well, and I think it's a misinterpretation of the SKR clarification that he cited. I think the intent of SKR's comment is that if you're taking a regular move, you can't approach diagonally to slip through the "hole" in a creature's threatened area, since that hole is just an artifact of representing a circular area on a square grid. But if you're taking a 5-foot-step, you don't provoke from moving through a threatened area no matter what.
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1: Fair enough
2: Actually I think MistySlanky is right and they can reach into that second square on the diagonal.
3: Learned something new today. Now I need to find SKR original post of that to print and show my GM
4: Shield of Faith being a notable exception that does add to CMD
5: That is the way I have always played it
6: Again that is the way I have always played it
7: A fact often forgotten
8: Agreed
9: The looks I got in Colorado when I first asked their flat footed CMD
10: Yes but not if you are attacking from above them. (God bless mount mechanics)
11: Really? I've always interpreted that passage to mean that you can't aid on skills that are trained only
12: yes
Now for Mine:
13: Jump checks are really hard to meet for vertical distance (I do not care that your skill is 40+ you can't jump up 60'
14: You cannot tumble through difficult terrain
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Now for Mine:
13: Jump checks are really hard to meet for vertical distance (I do not care that your skill is 40+ you can't jump up 60'14: You cannot tumble through difficult terrain
yes, please!
i would love to see the list continuei'll even throw in some extra exclamation points, just to show my enthusiasm
!!!!
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14: You cannot tumble through difficult terrain
yes you can ... difficult terrain cost double movement, and tumbling is typically done at half speed. there are increased DCs for rubble, etc, and for full speed tumbling, but nowhere under acrobatics does it say you can't tumble in difficult terrain, and under difficult terrain it doesn't mention acrobatics either.
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Lovely to make a list like this Dysfunction. You snagged a lot of things that I see often as well. A few notes on yours:
The below cases are some of those witnessed examples:
1. Produce flame – is not a touch spell, its a range 0' spell Agreed, not magus-able, but it's an attack to deliver as a weapon, not a standard action (see the spell)
2. Reach weapons – cannot reach an opponent in a diagonal 10’ square (counts as 15’) Agreed - the 3.5 rule was removed.
3. 5’ step – provokes an AOO when stepping in from a diagonal square 10’ to 5’ (counts as 15’ to 5’) Disagree - SKR was talking about movement, not 5' steps. The 5' step rules would override.
4. Mage armor, shield, or other protection spells that add armor or shield bonus – do not add to CMD Agreed, but they usually forget the bonuses here (shield of faith, etc.
5. Move enhancement bonus does not stack with monk’s increase movement Agreed
6. Move enhancement bonus does stack with Barbarian’s increased movement Agreed
7. Anyone can disable a nonmagical traps if they are skilled in disable trap Agreed - very common + anyone can *find* magical ones.
8. Lunge Feat – additional reach only counts on your turn - doesn't threaten squares when its not your turn Agreed, though haven't seen Lunge often in PFS
9. Flat-footed/Dexless characters do not add Dex bonus to CMD Agreed
10. Reach weapons suffer soft cover penalties when attacking through people I have some questions on this one. I agree it *looks* like that is the rule, but I think the text (reach uses ranged rules) might be referring only to the issue of how to check for cover, not the rules for soft cover.
11. Aid another only works if the aiding PC can meet the required DC the primary PC is performing Disagree
12. Aid another in combat only works for those that threaten the same opponent Agreed, but never seen used
13. Failure to record/remove Permanent Negative Levels from death. This one was enshrined in the Guide for several versions before it was quietly removed (it actually said there were no penalties). The change should have been called out better.
14: Jump checks are really hard to meet for vertical distance (I do not care that your skill is 40+ you can't jump up 60'
Edit: Heavily ninja'd :)
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CRB Pg 86 - In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device,
you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your
character couldn’t achieve alone. The GM might impose
further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case
basis as well.
That bolded section encompasses a lot of skills. Any skill check with a set DC would fall into this category. It really hurts the use of Aid Another. If no one can get the DC by themselves then no one can do it as a group either. Huh. Not sure I like that....but it does make difficult skill checks much more of a challenge. DC 25-30 checks have much more meaning when you consider this.
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Every character I've ever seen brought back to life in PFS has ignored the resulting negative levels. I understand why -- the prestige cost is hefty enough -- but there it is. Maybe it's a regional thing?
How is this possible?! If a character dies the GM has to account for how you got raised, what happens to the negative levels and who is paying for it. That is a travesty.
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On the Skill and Aid another, I went back and for on this for awhile, and I finally came to the descision that the line that says "In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone." is referencing skills that are Trained only.
That interpretation fits the line perfectly and allows Aid Another still to be useful.
For awhile, here we thought you were locked into the favored class bonus you pick.
Not sure who pointed it out, I think it was me because I was the new guy reading through the rules to better learn the game.
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Eidolons do not go poof until negative con wasn't known. On the reverse, it seems like GMs "metagame" creatures attacking my character on the eidolon vs the eidolon itself, who is probably a bigger threat to those that don't know.
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No one plays gunslingers because GMs keep thinking Rapid Reload and Paper cartridges reduces the reload action to a swift action even though both entries don't even mention swift actions anywhere. They keep confusing it for the level 11 ability that let's you reload as a free action with either one once per round WITHOUT PROVOKING vs normally reloading as a free action with Paper Cartridges+Rapid Reload DOES provoke (unless feats are taking).
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Not really a misconception, but I still don't know if my witch can freely fly with the Fly HEX or has to do a standard action to use it then move.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Dragnmoon, the passage also includes skill checks with a DC greater than 20 plus the character's skill. (That is, if I need to roll a DC 24 Heal check, you can's aid me unless you have at least a +4 Heal skill roll.)
On the other hand, if you do have a +5 on your Heal check, you can aid me (a) even if my current Heal roll is 28, and (b) by rolling a total of 10.
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Dragnmoon, the passage also includes skill checks with a DC greater than 20 plus the character's skill. (That is, if I need to roll a DC 24 Heal check, you can's aid me unless you have at least a +4 Heal skill roll.)
On the other hand, if you do have a +5 on your Heal check, you can aid me (a) even if my current Heal roll is 28, and (b) by rolling a total of 10.
If you say so... I don't interpret the rule that way...
I will agree it is not very clear, and it is one of those annoying rules that GMs can make calls on. I used to think the same Chris, but I was convinced otherwise.
one thing I saw going on for a while until I found out it doesn't work here on the boards is a trip build guy who was using the AoO when somebody stands up to trip them again
I wasn't aware that this was a problem. It specifically states that you can substitute a trip for a melee attack (as opposed to say a grapple which specifically requires a standard action) and an attack of opportunity is clearly that. Am I missing something? This appears to be pretty clearly RAW to me...
"An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round."
"You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack."
These are both cut and pasted from d20pfsrd which I realize is not official, though I thought they were more or less pulled word for word from the crb.
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I think the negative levels are to avoid a character purposely dying to keep thier character from retiring.
That's not how negative levels work in Pathfinder.
Energy Drain and Negative Levels
Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy; this dreadful attack results in “negative levels.” These cause a character to take a number of penalties.
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature's negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.
A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.
Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.
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I wasn't aware that this was a problem. It specifically states that you can substitute a trip for a melee attack (as opposed to say a grapple which specifically requires a standard action) and an attack of opportunity is clearly that. Am I missing something? This appears to be pretty clearly RAW to me...
The key is that (as far as I know) the AoO comes before they actually stand up. Therefore, you cannot actually trip them, as they are still prone until after the AoO.
Interesting. I'd still appreciate if anyone could link a quote to the core rulebook that specifies. I'm reading it atm and it isn't clear one way or the other.
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I think the negative levels are to avoid a character purposely dying to keep thier character from retiring.
Legacy 3.5 memories. Negative levels work differently in Pathfinder.
Interesting. I'd still appreciate if anyone could link a quote to the core rulebook that specifies. I'm reading it atm and it isn't clear one way or the other.
I believe that has actually made it into the Pathfinder Core Rulebook FAQ.
No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up.
—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10