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I once got baltantly hit on by a girl whom I wasn't finding attractive and, generally, didn't really want anything to do with. She chose a very invasive way to express her interest - by touching me in a reather sexual way, without my concent, and in front of my girlfriend. Many girls (and one guy) who have experienced sexual harresment often told me of a sensation of being paralyzed and unable to think. Well, that wasn't at all what I felt, I was just embarrased and a little bit upset, kind of what I used to feel like as a kid when one perticulat aunt would give me smacking wet kisses on my forehead. Anyway you look at it though I was harassed, by what I percieved at the time as "that girl creeper".
I am sharing this story because the discussion started with Kirth noticing, that many times behavior that from one man could be considerd flirty and enjoyable by a girl, would be considerd "creepy" if another man did it.
The grim truth is, that this is correct and there's not much to do about it. Had I been touched the way I was by another girl, in other circumstances, I might have enjoyed it a great deal. The fact that I just didn't want that girl had a lot to do with how unpleasent a feeling the incident created. So I can't blame anyone, male or female, for feeling that way. It's natural...I don't think anyone would argue that what you experienced wasn't harassment (and completely unacceptable).
I'd like to offer that some behaviors perceived as unwelcome or harassment by women may not be perceived as unwelcome or harassment by men subjected to them. I'd also suggest that while such behaviors might be tolerated or even accepted by women (or men, when subjected to them), that does not mean the behavior wasn't creepy or welcomed.
Maybe creepy is the wrong word? Maybe "boundary-crossing" is better? Maybe creepy is the feeling experienced when boundary-crossing becomes "boundary-violation"?
Well that I don't get, actually. I can see that the perception of "boundary -crossing" would of course differ from person to person, but why would there be differences between men and women on the subject? men are every bit as varied on this subject as women are, you know. Some react well to some things, some don't react very well. The only reason I could see a difference is in cultural expectations - girls are somehow expected to be more shy of their own sexuality, and so often when I see a guy hitting on a girl, I see him behaving brazenly in a way he would usually be embarrassed to act, and I see her acting very hesitantly even though she is usually more confident than that.
But *actual* differences? I really find it hard to believe. A (surprisingly, to some people) large amount of guys are actually not at all appreciative of attention from girls when they either don't want those particular girls, or when the girls are acting in the "creeper", boundary-crossing way we discussed earlier, or hack, sometimes the man just isn't in the mood. Shocking, right? a male not being a sex starved beast all of the time? actually having times when he *prefers* to just hang out with someone, even though that someone's a girl? When he just doesn't feel like flirting? When he (gasp!) isn't horny right now and has other things on his mind?
Same goes for girls – from what I got to see, *many* girls enjoy attention in a rather broad form – some would actually go hunting for it, and intentionally put themselves in situation where some guy is hitting on them in the "creeper" way. In my high school, which was a boarding school, there was this one girl, for example, who did acrobatic maneuvers on a pair of hanging rings (I mean this). Funny thing was, she'd always wait until the sport class of the boys in her class (including me) would start, so that every boy of appropriate age is trapped in the gym with her. Then she'll practice, and let me tell you that a pretty, young girl in very tight tights, twisting and stretching about on those rings, is a hard thing to ignore, and many guys ogled her in a very invasive way as she practiced. Still, she would *always* time her practice sessions to the boys' physical education class. Meanwhile, most people I know would be highly uncomfortable with having their body checked out by 20 members of the other gender as they work out. There may be great differences between people, but I highly doubt gender is as strongly important to that difference as you seem to suggest, Ambrosia Slaa
Now as a disclaimer I really don't have sufficient data to support my idea that there should be no actual differences between males and females on the subject of how they might not enjoy certain kinds of attention at certain times from certain people. However my personal experience, from knowing myself and the surrounding, is strongly against such a notion as "people should be treated differently because of their gender".
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Having different standards for different sexes stinks of elitism and means requiring some form of discrimination. I would say the old adage applies perfectly: The variability within the group is greater than the variability between the groups. Some people thrive on sexual attention. Some abhor it. Others are so starved for it that ANY sort of sexual attention, even negative, is a good thing. Creeping someone out is getting attention... and if that is all that is available, it is a human reaction to take it. It behooves us all to be understanding of those around us, even if we can't tolerate what they do.
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These are based on my personal experiences:Ah, I remember that one game in GR....yeah...I had actually been thinking of incidents prior to that game. I don't remember much from the GR game other than being sooooo relieved to see another woman at the table of like, 15 guys :D
And being super impressed with Erik's ability to keep the storyline going with so many PC's.
Oh my goodness, yes, Erik did a wonderful job DMing. I still tell people about him running a 14 player session and keeping it moving. Amazing.
But there was one player. He focused on me for some reason. I think the most annoying thing is how nobody would say anything when this guy said things to me like "Your character can't be a paladin. Girls can't fight. Well...I guess you could be an archer." "My character's a hot lesbian elf chick. She wants to work at the brothel. Where's the brothel?" But afterward, about 4-6 players came up and said things like "That guy's a jerk, huh?"
Ah well, at least they worked with me when I strategized how to sit as far away from that dude as possible at the gaming table. One nice thing about such a huge group!
...I'm going to play that bard-adin some day again. :)
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Since all my lighthearted posts have been deleted for off-topicness, time to get on-topic and serious and address a scattershot of topics touched on above:
[Puts on serious hat]
--So, about a year ago I went to a regional New England con to meet some Paizopals. And one of them brought his wife, who, although not an RPG-er, was a casual fan of boardgames.
I didn't hear this story until this year, so I may get some details wrong, but, from what I recall: the first thing that the Mrs. ran into on the con floor was a morbidly obese, pasty-faced person of indeterminate gender in a Winnie-the-Pooh outfit. He/she/it smiled at the Mrs. (not in a lascivious way, or at least that wasn't part of the story) and the Mrs. was so creeped out that, this year, she refused to go at all.
Our hobby has a lot of creeps before you even get to sex.
--We can get all women's libbed out as much as we like but I don't think it's ever going to change the fact that our hobby contains a large amount of prepubescent to early 20-something males. Hormones permanently enraged, haven't yet mastered (if they ever will) the niceties of interacting with the opposite sex (or same sex as the case may be--it's all wicked confusing), peer pressure, all that stuff. If you wish to cut down on the "creeper" behavior of such a demographic, well, good luck.
--I love the suggestions that those looking to pick up women should go to bars instead of gaming conventions. Because these dudes are already clueless about how to attract women and deal with rejection, I'm sure throwing alcohol into the mix will be just awesome.
--Discussion of "unwanted sexual attention" always makes me think of a story by Flaubert:
Clearly, dudes have been misinterpreting signals from women for a very long time, but it does make me wonder: if males don't have any right to expect sex or any of the other stuff that they don't have the right to expect (and they don't), what rights, exactly, do women have to not be approached (not harassed, not assaulted, approached) in public places? And if a woman can't learn to deal with unwanted advances at a gaming convention, what the hell is she going to do in all of the other arenas of her life?
--Flirting at the gaming table: I do it every time, I don't care what a bunch of posters on Paizo think. You came here to pretend to be a dude with a sword fighting monsters? Good for you. My characters prefer substance abuse and copulation. Hence, I can usually be relied upon to flirt with every female character (whether played by a woman or not) and, given my passing whims, some of the male ones, too.
In my own limited con-attending experiences I have noticed that the majority of women respond amicably. If they don't, I back off and find some NPC to flirt with, but what I find endlessly entertaining is that, a majority of the time when I am flirting in-game with the women, it's usually the dudes who get uncomfortable.
Someone stating that they have the right not to be APPROACHED because of their sex, claiming as a justification for this that "life isn't fair" will probably learn better on the first account and see the truth of the second. Eventually.
Someone stating that they have the right not to be APPROACHED because of their sex, claiming as a justification for this that "life isn't fair" will probably learn better on the first account and see the truth of the second. Eventually.
What?
Anyway, 99% of the complaints in this or the other threads weren't "Someone approached me, then politely went away when I rebuffed him", but "Wouldn't take no for an answer" or "sexually harassed me or my character" or just blatant sexism - "girls can't ..."
To be clear, since I brought up the non-right to be approached in public, I had in mind more the "unwanted sexual attention = creep" formula rather than the unpleasant anecdotes.
Also, if I remember correctly from my more swinging youth, hooking up at meat markets was less about the chat up and more about rubbing yourself against amicable strangers. Which, I agree, you shouldn't do at gaming conventions. Without an invitation.
To be fair I have never had anyone make any unwelcome advances during a Con. I have been approached but that is different. Most guys I have met can figure out when I tell them I am not interested that just maybe I am really not interested. Why pick up someone at a con anyway? The odds are you will live hundreds of miles away from them.
I think, maybe, to have sex?
Someone stating that they have the right not to be APPROACHED because of their sex, claiming as a justification for this that "life isn't fair" will probably learn better on the first account and see the truth of the second. Eventually.What?
Nobody has a right to not be approached. Everyone has a right to be left alone when they have clearly stated that that is what they want. If you seriously think you have a right not to be approached, you will find there is a price to pay for behaving accordingly. Hopefully you will eventually stop acting childishly.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Aranna
Heh, I'm the kind of guy who does approach strangers that catch my attention and start a conversation. Not a 'hook up' conversation, but just a general discussion. I think I confused a 'bikini babe' once by striking up a conversation about art. One of the artists at the con commented on how he'd like a model like her, and I mentioned it, then we started talking about conventions and 'booth babes' in general. It was an enjoyable conversation, but at first I got the "Why is this big guy talking to me, and not oggling me" expression.
OTOH, I got hit on by a guy at the same Con. I was amused and he took my 'no thanks' in style.
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Although perhaps not directly related to "creeper" behavior, I can attest that there are times when gamers can cross the line in many ways. In the first or second year of the Living Greyhawk campaign, I roleplayed a kobold so annoyingly that one player - playing a thuggish fighter type - got up from the table, stood behind me, and - while in-character - proceeded to strangle me while telling me (as the kobold) that I was going to tell the wizard everything he wanted to know.
And I did :)
While I am not eager to repeat the experience, I consider it one of my finest GM'ing performances of my life.
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@Aranna
Heh, I'm the kind of guy who does approach strangers that catch my attention and start a conversation. Not a 'hook up' conversation, but just a general discussion. I think I confused a 'bikini babe' once by striking up a conversation about art. One of the artists at the con commented on how he'd like a model like her, and I mentioned it, then we started talking about conventions and 'booth babes' in general. It was an enjoyable conversation, but at first I got the "Why is this big guy talking to me, and not oggling me" expression.
OTOH, I got hit on by a guy at the same Con. I was amused and he took my 'no thanks' in style.
Hee hee!
I was selling commie newspapers at a Gay Pride parade this one time, oh, 15 years ago, and this topless woman came over to talk about the paper. "Blah blah blah, DADT is bullshiznit, workers revolution is the only answer, blah blah blah."
At the end of the conversation she said, "You know, you're the first person I've spoken to today who hasn't looked at my chest" to which I replied "I have great peripheral vision."
And then we did it in the street.
Nobody has a right to not be approached. Everyone has a right to be left alone when they have clearly stated that that is what they want. If you seriously think you have a right not to be approached, you will find there is a price to pay for behaving accordingly. Hopefully you will eventually stop acting childishly.Someone stating that they have the right not to be APPROACHED because of their sex, claiming as a justification for this that "life isn't fair" will probably learn better on the first account and see the truth of the second. Eventually.What?
I think it's the use of double negatives that is throwing me. I have always been bad with those.
If someone is showing signs of discomfort or disinterest (e.g. not making eye contact, edging away, looking around the room past you as if for help, making excuses to leave) and you don't back off, you are being a creeper.
If I'm showing those kind of signs, you already ARE a creeper. If you don't back off, now you're entering 'I must physically defend myself and/or seek aid' territory.
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If someone is showing signs of discomfort or disinterest (e.g. not making eye contact, edging away, looking around the room past you as if for help, making excuses to leave) and you don't back off, you are being a creeper.If I'm showing those kind of signs, you already ARE a creeper. If you don't back off, now you're entering 'I must physically defend myself and/or seek aid' territory.And this is where I have some sympathy with the counter argument: If I'm already a creeper before there are any signs of discomfort or disinterest, how do I avoid being creepy?
Never talk to, look at or make any form or contact with anyone?
1. Be handsome.
2. Be attractive.3. Don't be unattractive.
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It is not a good thing to merely act as if you have been perfectly clear about it when you haven't, in fact, been so. If you are showing all these signals and the "creep" is not responding to them, then you are in all likelihood dealing with someone who could not read a social cue if it bit them in the rump. That still doesn't make them any less human. You need to act your age and TELL the person doing it that you don't want him/her to do that. Childishly stating that you "must now physically defend yourself", or worse, actually using violence, says more about you than about the "creep". Of course, if you hit someone who did not understand their behaviour was distressing you, I'd feel quite confident in calling YOU the creep.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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It is not a good thing to merely act as if you have been perfectly clear about it when you haven't, in fact, been so. If you are showing all these signals and the "creep" is not responding to them, then you are in all likelihood dealing with someone who could not read a social cue if it bit them in the rump.
I can't help it I've no ranks in sense motive!
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I think it's the use of double negatives that is throwing me. I have always been bad with those.Nobody has a right to not be approached. Everyone has a right to be left alone when they have clearly stated that that is what they want. If you seriously think you have a right not to be approached, you will find there is a price to pay for behaving accordingly. Hopefully you will eventually stop acting childishly.Someone stating that they have the right not to be APPROACHED because of their sex, claiming as a justification for this that "life isn't fair" will probably learn better on the first account and see the truth of the second. Eventually.What?
Really? I have never found it not easy to not misunderstand the opposite of non double negatives. I don't guess it's not just me, though.
Really? I have never found it not easy to not misunderstand the opposite of non double negatives. I don't guess it's not just me, though.I think it's the use of double negatives that is throwing me. I have always been bad with those.Nobody has a right to not be approached. Everyone has a right to be left alone when they have clearly stated that that is what they want. If you seriously think you have a right not to be approached, you will find there is a price to pay for behaving accordingly. Hopefully you will eventually stop acting childishly.Someone stating that they have the right not to be APPROACHED because of their sex, claiming as a justification for this that "life isn't fair" will probably learn better on the first account and see the truth of the second. Eventually.What?
hate you soooooo much.
:-)
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I thought this thread was about Minecraft when I saw the title...
If someone is showing signs of discomfort or disinterest (e.g. not making eye contact, edging away, looking around the room past you as if for help, making excuses to leave) and you don't back off, you are being a creeper.If I'm showing those kind of signs, you already ARE a creeper. If you don't back off, now you're entering 'I must physically defend myself and/or seek aid' territory.And this is where I have some sympathy with the counter argument: If I'm already a creeper before there are any signs of discomfort or disinterest, how do I avoid being creepy?
Never talk to, look at or make any form or contact with anyone?
Actually "never talking to me" even after I say something to you IS creepy. And there is a difference between looking at someone and staring or ogling. You are expected to make eye contact with people that isn't creepy... continuously staring at my chest is creepy.
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@Aranna
Heh, I'm the kind of guy who does approach strangers that catch my attention and start a conversation. Not a 'hook up' conversation, but just a general discussion. I think I confused a 'bikini babe' once by striking up a conversation about art. One of the artists at the con commented on how he'd like a model like her, and I mentioned it, then we started talking about conventions and 'booth babes' in general. It was an enjoyable conversation, but at first I got the "Why is this big guy talking to me, and not oggling me" expression.
OTOH, I got hit on by a guy at the same Con. I was amused and he took my 'no thanks' in style.
Hee hee!
I was selling commie newspapers at a Gay Pride parade this one time, oh, 15 years ago, and this topless woman came over to talk about the paper. "Blah blah blah, DADT is bullshiznit, workers revolution is the only answer, blah blah blah."
At the end of the conversation she said, "You know, you're the first person I've spoken to today who hasn't looked at my chest" to which I replied "I have great peripheral vision."
And then we did it in the street.
This does not surprise me. There are plenty of gay guys who are terrible when it comes to staring at boobs. (It's more of a curiosity thing than a sexual thing.)
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Ok, to be a little more constructive...
"Creepy" is going to vary. A lot. But it is usually not too hard to tell by careful observation how someone feels about your attention. Look for body language. Tone of voice. And above all, accept rejection gracefully and immediately. And if you later ask them out on another occasion and they say no again, don't ask any more. One rejection could just be circumstances (though even then, most people will make that clear). Two definitely means NOT INTERESTED. Deal with it.
...unless we are talking about Minecraft, in which case all creepers should be put to the sword immediately. ;-)
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If someone is showing signs of discomfort or disinterest (e.g. not making eye contact, edging away, looking around the room past you as if for help, making excuses to leave) and you don't back off, you are being a creeper.If I'm showing those kind of signs, you already ARE a creeper. If you don't back off, now you're entering 'I must physically defend myself and/or seek aid' territory.And this is where I have some sympathy with the counter argument: If I'm already a creeper before there are any signs of discomfort or disinterest, how do I avoid being creepy?
Never talk to, look at or make any form or contact with anyone?Actually "never talking to me" even after I say something to you IS creepy. And there is a difference between looking at someone and staring or ogling. You are expected to make eye contact with people that isn't creepy... continuously staring at my chest is creepy.
Okay, so you feel entitled to call someone a creep for showing you attention when you do not want attention from that person, meanwhile if you show someone attention and they do not respond properly to the attention you are showing them, you ALSO consider them creepers? Does this also justify you defending yourself physically against them?
...I have no words.
EDIT: Seems I made a mistake here, and did not see who posted what. My apologies. I would still like to know if "If I am showing these signals, you are already a creeper" and "you better respond to me when I am talking to you or you're a creeper" are healthy ways of looking at communication with your fellow human beings. It certainly seems to me that these two statements would "creeper" each other...
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But it is usually not too hard to tell by careful observation how someone feels about your attention.
That can be kind of like a Catch-22: Observe carefully to make sure they're not showing signs that you're creeping them out... but be aware that careful observation is, in and of itself, creepy behavior!
But I think we've got some very good base rules that seem to have broad support:
1. Don't hit on people at cons/during game time.
2. Even after the game, do NOT keep hitting on people after they say "no" or evidence some other form of disinterest.
3. In-game, don't do things to another player's PC that you shouldn't do to the player him/herself.
If someone is showing signs of discomfort or disinterest (e.g. not making eye contact, edging away, looking around the room past you as if for help, making excuses to leave) and you don't back off, you are being a creeper.If I'm showing those kind of signs, you already ARE a creeper. If you don't back off, now you're entering 'I must physically defend myself and/or seek aid' territory.And this is where I have some sympathy with the counter argument: If I'm already a creeper before there are any signs of discomfort or disinterest, how do I avoid being creepy?
Never talk to, look at or make any form or contact with anyone?Actually "never talking to me" even after I say something to you IS creepy. And there is a difference between looking at someone and staring or ogling. You are expected to make eye contact with people that isn't creepy... continuously staring at my chest is creepy.
Okay, so you feel entitled to call someone a creep for showing you attention when you do not want attention from that person, meanwhile if you show someone attention and they do not respond properly to the attention you are showing them, you ALSO consider them creepers? Does this also justify you defending yourself physically against them?
...I have no words.
Um, Madame Sissyl? Aranna and Mystically Inclined aren't the same person. Maybe you remember something that I don't, but I don't recall Aranna saying anything like the first half of your first sentence.
*shrug*
I don't know, Kirth. Maybe I'm a Creeper and I just don't know it, but it seems to me most people make it pretty clear how they feel if you pay attention.
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I don't know, Kirth. Maybe I'm a Creeper and I just don't know it, but it seems to me most people make it pretty clear how they feel about your attention if you pay attention.
I think there's a pretty broad spectrum of how easily people pick up on those kind of cues, Bugley. Some people pick it all up sort of automatically, but others need to pay VERY close attention or they miss it (like you or I might miss a faint sound unless we're carefully listening for it), and that level of attention can definitely seem pretty creepy.
Also, some people just lack the focus to pay attention to a conversation and ALSO pay attention to tracking various nonverbal cues -- kind of like a student driver has a very hard time working the brake, clutch, and gear shift all together.
And I'm with Sissyl in thinking that, while these people are awakward and kind of annoying to be around, they're still people, and I don't want to just brand a big scarlet "C" on all their foreheads and banish them from gaming or something.
Also, if I remember correctly from my more swinging youth, hooking up at meat markets was less about the chat up and more about rubbing yourself against amicable strangers.
... that can not be kosher...
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No, but it is halal.
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If someone is showing signs of discomfort or disinterest (e.g. not making eye contact, edging away, looking around the room past you as if for help, making excuses to leave) and you don't back off, you are being a creeper.If I'm showing those kind of signs, you already ARE a creeper. If you don't back off, now you're entering 'I must physically defend myself and/or seek aid' territory.
Those signs often aren't nearly as obvious as you'd think, especially for the socially clueless (of which there are a lot at gaming cons)
]I think there's a pretty broad spectrum of how easily people pick up on those kind of cues, Bugley. Some people pick it all up sort of automatically, but others need to pay VERY close attention or they miss it (like you or I might miss a faint sound unless we're carefully listening for it), and that level of attention can definitely seem pretty creepy.
Also, some people just lack the focus to pay attention to a conversation and ALSO pay attention to tracking various nonverbal cues -- kind of like a student driver has a very hard time working the brake, clutch, and gear shift all together.
And I'm with Sissyl in thinking that, while these people are awakward and kind of annoying to be around, they're still people, and I don't want to just brand a big scarlet "C" on all their foreheads and banish them from gaming or something.
Hmmm...I'm falling back to the "I'm probably a creeper and just don't know it" then. ;-)
In any case, I agree we should do everything we can to smooth things over for everyone...I guess I just don't have any useful insight to offer.
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This does not surprise me. There are plenty of gay guys who are terrible when it comes to staring at boobs. (It's more of a curiosity thing than a sexual thing.)
Hee hee! I was 20ish and had never been approached in the street by a topless woman before. I was too terrified to look at her breasts.
Come to think of it, I haven't been approached in the street by a topless woman since then either.
If someone is showing signs of discomfort or disinterest (e.g. not making eye contact, edging away, looking around the room past you as if for help, making excuses to leave) and you don't back off, you are being a creeper.If I'm showing those kind of signs, you already ARE a creeper. If you don't back off, now you're entering 'I must physically defend myself and/or seek aid' territory.And this is where I have some sympathy with the counter argument: If I'm already a creeper before there are any signs of discomfort or disinterest, how do I avoid being creepy?
Never talk to, look at or make any form or contact with anyone?Actually "never talking to me" even after I say something to you IS creepy. And there is a difference between looking at someone and staring or ogling. You are expected to make eye contact with people that isn't creepy... continuously staring at my chest is creepy.
Okay, so you feel entitled to call someone a creep for showing you attention when you do not want attention from that person, meanwhile if you show someone attention and they do not respond properly to the attention you are showing them, you ALSO consider them creepers? Does this also justify you defending yourself physically against them?
...I have no words.
EDIT: Seems I made a mistake here, and did not see who posted what. My apologies. I would still like to know if "If I am showing these signals, you are already a creeper" and "you better respond to me when I am talking to you or you're a creeper" are healthy ways of looking at communication with your fellow human beings. It certainly seems to me that these two statements would "creeper" each other...
You are mixing me up with others...
I don't mind people approaching me and I am clear about telling you "not interested". Yeah if you KEEP persuing me after I say no, then you are a creeper... But really Sissyl? You would think someone refusing to say anything to you after you say hello is normal? I mean they are either really mad at me or creepy... what else could it be?
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Those signs often aren't nearly as obvious as you'd think, especially for the socially clueless (of which there are a lot at gaming cons)If someone is showing signs of discomfort or disinterest (e.g. not making eye contact, edging away, looking around the room past you as if for help, making excuses to leave) and you don't back off, you are being a creeper.If I'm showing those kind of signs, you already ARE a creeper. If you don't back off, now you're entering 'I must physically defend myself and/or seek aid' territory.
I have been living with Mrs T8D for almost 20 years..... The only sign I can tell is annoyed and that took me about 5 years to work out.
Mrs T8D "Couldnt you tell I was annoyed with you, how many times have I asked you not to talk politics with my father"
Me - " He started it, and no I couldn't tell... You were smiling and didn't have your angry face on."
Mrs T8D "I had my arms crossed and I stared at you"
Me "sorry there is no way I am going to pick up on that, why couldn't you just say stop talking about politics"
A couple of days later I see she has her arms crossed and staring at me.
"I'm sorry what have I done" I was very proud I recognised the sign.
"Nothing you look nicer in that shirt now that you have lost some weight"
"but you did the annoyed sign"
"no I did the proud of you, you look nice sign"
............
Mrs T8Ds real sign for being annoyed is very short answers and silence.
Men aren't body language experts or mind readers. You have to say stop what you are doing its annoying me.
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You are mixing me up with others...
I don't mind people approaching me and I am clear about telling you "not interested". Yeah if you KEEP persuing me after I say no, then you are a creeper... But really Sissyl? You would think someone refusing to say anything to you after you say hello is normal? I mean they are either really mad at me or creepy... what else could it be?
Off the top of my head I'd say extreme shyness.
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Men aren't body language experts or mind readers.
But why not? Lack of mind reading items?
In all seriousness, I think the definition of "crossing the line" does vary by person, as stated before many times in this thread.
And if a guy wants to hit on me, sure, great; but if I state I'm not interested in a clear and direct manner, and he persists? He just passed into "creeper" territory in my mind. To me, that's line crossing.
4.) I am short (5'6)
That not actually short...that's above average [1'9&1/2"-5'4&1/2"-8'11"]...but who am I to tell you that you all have have height issues unrelated to reality.
Lol, thank you.
Must just be perception Bias on my part, as my wife is an inch taller than me and all three of my male friends are 6 ft plus, with one being 6'4.
Thanks for the FYI.
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Average for whom, Chinese women? Caucasian men these days average closer to 5'10".
Confession: I'm 5'7" in shoes and don't weigh much more than a pixie. In high school I had a lot more muscle and was generally referred to as "that psycho midget." As an adult, when I speak up I've been consistently ignored and accused of "Napoleon complex" and "short person syndrome" and a variety of other less pleasant things -- until I moved to Texas, paradoxically, where all the men towered over me (but attributed my speaking up to me being a Yankee, and thought it was cool).
I read somewhere that every inch below 5'10", for a male, translates to $10,000/year less in salary, because of promotion and hiring differentials. (I'll look for a link, given the opportunity.)
No woman has ever thought I might be a potential rapist, because of my size. Until Mrs Gersen, most women never considered me as a potential date, either, for the same reason.
Women have had, and still have, an unequal time of it in the workplace. We vertically-challenged men do as well, so I sympathize maybe more than many people.