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We had a good thread not long ago in which a number of women shared reasons they felt excluded from gaming, and a common theme was that at cons, in public gaming areas, etc., they didn't want to be subjected to what one woman called "creeper behavior."
I have no interest in devolving into the BS arguments and tantrums that led to the locking of that thread. I actually have an on-topic question that I'd like help with. Preferrably from women, and maybe from a few men with actual suggestions or comments that actually help the discussion. And without men telling me there's no problem. And, equally, without men telling me that I'm a problem.
OK, we all agree, I think, that going around groping women is taboo. It's legally so -- a case of sexual assault -- and can be treated as such; I'm going to go with the approach that getting rid of it implies actually prosecuting the perps. So that's not what I'm after here.
It's the statement that general "creeper behavior" is pervasive, and needs to be eliminated. Because, as near as I can tell, "creeper behavior" is defined as "being hit on by some guy whom I think is a creep." (Again, please correct this definition as needed; it needs a lot of polishing.)
The confusion I have is that the things a hetero woman typically finds "creepy" are (a) lower levels of testosterone-induced pheromones; (b) dressing and/or grooming in a sloppy manner (unless it's pointedly sloppy -- i.e., hipster); and (c) simple lack of height. (One can split hairs and/or add or subtract from the list, but I'm talking physiology, not philosophy.) Confusing things still further, in some cases (although not all by a long shot), a man with one, two, or all three of these things, can instead be considered a creep for NOT showing an interest.
So here's my question: does eliminating "creeper" behavior mean that all gaming areas/activities should be pointedly sexless? Or that unattractive guys be omitted? Or that women should make advances to guys they find attractive but never worry about reciprocation, or what?
Disclaimer: I don't hit on women anyway, as I'm very happily married, so this isn't about me. It's about the other people who aren't sure what to do. And I'm not trying to be obnoxious here; I'm actually curious. Does opening the hobby to women more mean that it's important to maintain a rigid "no chatting up" rule? Or a "no gender-related issues can ever come up in game" rule? Or some permutation? Or something else entirely?
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The confusion I have is that the things a hetero woman typically finds "creepy" are (a) lower levels of testosterone-induced pheromones; (b) dressing and/or grooming in a sloppy manner (unless it's pointedly sloppy -- i.e., hipster); and (c) simple lack of height. (One can split hairs and/or add or subtract from the list, but I'm talking physiology, not philosophy.) Confusing things still further, in some cases (although not all by a long shot), a man with one, two, or all three of these things, can instead be considered a creep for NOT showing an interest.
I don't understand these...
Short guys? Men who don't conform to the social order...Are you suggesting Women in gaming still indulge in the bigotry of the Ansu Scale?
What you are suggesting is that the gaming environment be made safe for women so they can look for attractive men without having to dodge the ire of angry rejects. Basically indulge in non-gaming behaviour of a psychologically divisive nature to the detriment of the gaming group environment.
What you are suggesting is that...
I'm not suggesting anything at all; I'm asking. And, insofar as I can assume you're a bloke and not a sheila (assuming "dingo" implies an Aussie background), you're most emphatically not helping me get a useful suggestion.
One thing I'd like to add to the pile and get the input of any ladies that might reply to this thread...
Why is it that when a man acts like a gentleman and treats a woman with respect he automatically tends to get hit with the assumption (and a reaction in accordance with that assumption) that he's hitting on them?
Slightly diversionary, but more or less apropos, I suppose.
I'm pretty sure your definition of creeper is what causes the confusion.
Its dangerous territory to tread on even talking about such things but here goes...
If I were to try and clear it up any I'd say when a woman refers to behavior as 'creeper' behavior what she's really calling it is 'unwanted attention'. How tall or how heavy or how bald he is only makes a difference from the standpoint of 'does she find him attractive enough that she doesnt mind receiving the kind of attention she's getting. If the answer is no, but the attention persists and the guy doesnt get the hint... welcome to creeper land.
If the issue has any prominence from the standpoint of your gaming table then this very 'creeper' nature could could be exacerbated by viewing it through the lens of 'this table is full of single guys and if i'm the only girl at the table they're all looking at me like 'we're slathering barbarians here to have fantasies of conquest... so knowing this there can only be one reason you've joined us... You're trying to find out which one of us is the alpha barbarian. Or the knight in shining armor. Which proto-man behavior is best likely to get you to join me after the game for drinks and a nightcap, milady!
But even so, the 'creeper' definition stands unaltered. If you're the kind of guy she doesnt mind receiving attention from you're ok. If she's a female gamer 'on the hunt' and using the game to meet guys but you're not the one she's after, then she prefers you not to be 'on the hunt' for her either, and if you don't get the hint... creeper! If she actually shows up to the game just to play the game then we're back to normal social contrivance.
There's no way to put 'creeper' behavior into a nice tidy box or instruction manual. No leering at her, take more showers, put a hat over that bald spot, find that delicate balance of being chivalrous without overdoing it... Making an appendix in the players guide on how not to be a 'creeper' so you don't scare away female gamers just doesnt work.
In game or out of game, not being a creeper means going one level above the golden rule. Instead of treating her how you'd want to be treated, you have to treat her the way she wants to be treated. Whether that means she just wants attention from guys she likes or whether that means she just wants to play the game without getting hit on at all by anyone. Whether that means she's comfortable with grog swilling innuendo and cro-magnon beer-wench rump smacking chauvenism or an amazon queen who tolerates no disrespect from those with hairy chests, or anywhere in between.
'Not being a creeper' is a moving target that changes from person to person so you cant really put a checklist on it except to find out the hard ways:
Trial and error, or good open and honest communication.
Guys it is very simple.... Unless a woman says she is interested in you - she is not interested in you. So don't try anything on.
She is at the game to game, don't ruin her fun by putting on moves or even being overly attentive.
Friendly, and polite is fine. Holding doors, being extra extra helpful is not.
If she is friendly she is not interested in you
If she is "flirty" she is still not interested in you.
If you are interested in her, she is still not interested in you.
If she is wearing hotpants and a boob tube she is not interested in you (time travelling from the 70's maybe but not interested in you).
If she is super attractive - to paraphrase Sienfeld "it's like the sun you look get a sense of it and then look away" also she is not interested in you.
Handshakes, high fives are fine, hugs, pats, hands on shoulders are not.
Dont white knight .... The only time I give up a seat it's for the elderly, pregnant, ill or parents with children. Women are fully capable standing or entering a lift or going through a door after you.
Do not tell a woman how to run/make/play a character.... Let women learn from their own mistakes.
If you feel that there may be errors with her character do the thing you do with male players let the GM know (quietly) and deal with it... (Ie I think Bobs BAB is too high) don't make an issue of it.
EDIT: removed non con stuff.
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Tip #1 - If you claim that what a woman wears is the problem, you are the creep. Period. No discussion.
On the "he's a creep if she doesn't think he's cute" - so many ways to take this. I'll take a stab at it though - women don't want to go around being hit on all the time. Sure, if you go to a bar, you expect it. That's what people go to bars for. But not what people go to gaming conventions for. Or the movies. Or the sidewalk. Try to remember that in this screwed up world, we've decided that one gender always initiates and the other is a brazen hussy if she tries (whether you personally feel that way or not is not the point - that's what she's been told). It's a really horrible situation to be in on both sides, but frankly, a lot harder for the receiving end, who have a lot less control over what's happening to them.
Related point - when was the last time you saw an ugly guy get the pretty girl in a movie, because deep down inside he's a good person (and if you haven't seen Forgetting Sarah Marshall, go do so right now)? Now when was the last time you saw the genders reversed, and an unattractive woman get the hot guy?
Seriously, look up some good discussions of gender. There are a lot of sites for this on the internet. I'd start with Jezebel, and the magazine that a Paizo employee was recently interviewed for (which I believe it is against forum rules to use the word, ironically enough). This is not a criticism - I asked many of the same questions just a few years ago. My wonderful wife became more interested in feminism, and since she thought it was interesting, I figured it would be worth investigating for myself. And it was. I realized I did not even realize all the ways that I was perpetuating a messed-up system. Thinking you treat everyone the same is not enough. It requires putting yourself in their shoes, and actively trying to behave differently than society expects you to behave. And remembering that most women are just as messed up by societal expectations as most men are.
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Hmmm. I still think this is not well-enough defined. Here's why.
People get hit on. It happens all the time. Sometimes the person who hits on you is a "creep." At least you think he's a creep. What do you do when that happens in a bar, or a ballgame, or at the supermarket, or where ever else?
I ask because it seems to me that places were people are gaming are no different in terms of how to deal with somebody who is hitting on you. Why should it be? You do what you would do in any of those situations. You tell him to get lost.
Now, if what you mean is that you are at some registered game, like Society Play, and somebody at the table is hitting on you, either overtly, or even in-character, that seems like it IS a topic for these boards. You're stuck there. He might be, too. What to do? Good question.
You might mean that there sometimes seem to be people of a sort of outcast and "yucky" (for want of a better word) nature in gaming circles - perhaps even emotionally disadvantaged, who have a hard time staying away from an attractive person. Yes, even though I believe such people are far more rare nowadays than the cliche normally heard even on these boards, I know a couple of those from the local FLGS. They can be creepy.
But what are we here to do about it? If your thread is meant to alert us that these people exist, we already know. If it is meant to vent, have at it. If it is meant to compel us to police their lives for you, we can't.
But surely there are enough normal - or reasonably so - men and teenaged boys around to help you dissuade the guy in some way. I know I would, if I saw somebody being subjected to intense discomfort and worry. And please don't try to tell me there are no normal and decent men at cons or FLGS to help with this. There are. I go to probably 20 cons a year, and I'm at the FLGS two or three times a week. There are good men all around in these places.
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I'd start with Jezebel...
There are many ways for men to become enlightened on women's issues. And there are many means and avenues for women to become empowered.
Jezebel does not rank. This is the same 'zine whose reviewer thought that Tron: Legacy was proof of an industry-wide conspiracy in Hollywood to subvert women and turn them into slaves, and recommended widespread castration as a cure to the problem.
If women's rights is the issue, Jezebel is like Fox News for feminists. That is NOT enlightenment, it's just anger. Avoid it. There are better ways to become informed.
So to Slate Magazine. Read HuffPost's women's section. Please... anything but Jezebel.
Don't white knight .... The only time I give up a seat it's for the elderly, pregnant, ill or parents with children. Women are fully capable standing or entering a lift or going through a door after you.This 'White Knight' bit is a cultural thing I guess. I was raised to treat all women a certain way as a matter of propriety, and its difficult to break habits ingrained as right and wrong.
It is difficult because some older women are socialised to expect that kind of behaviour and get shirty with you if you don't do the door, chair, standing thing, you are subject to their anger at not receiving that kind of deference.
My Grandmother taught me to behave one way and my mother another....
I deal with the grumpiness... If I get pulled up on it I explain that my mother taught me not to treat women as second class humans.
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Disclaimer: I don't hit on women anyway, as I'm very happily married, so this isn't about me. It's about the other people who aren't sure what to do. And I'm not trying to be obnoxious here; I'm actually curious. Does opening the hobby to women more mean that it's important to maintain a rigid "no chatting up" rule? Or a "no gender-related issues can ever come up in game" rule? Or some permutation? Or something else entirely?
If you have a creepy smelly weirdo guy in your group, he is still a creepy smelly weirdo guy to the rest of the group of guys - so gender isn't an issue - tolerance is.
You want some advice - don't game with these clowns.
If they can't get a grasp of 5th grade hygiene and social norms then they shouldn't be gaming. Period. Gaming should not serve as an encounter group to process deep rooted developmental issues for morons - it's a shared activity that people engage in, and since most games deal with gratuitous violence and issues that are (for the most part) unattractive to women it's mostly going to attract and retain men.
I do think that if you are gaming with immature a+!$*~&s you don't need a woman at the table to see that. Men just generally tolerate that kind of nonsense more - if you don't like it, make those players grow up or purge them from the table.
As to behavior and interaction with women, again - I don't seek to utilize my gaming hobby to find a mate. If a guy at the table can't take a cue on how to move with regard to the opposite sex, or is aggressive with women at the table (in or out of actual RPing) then that goes to him just not knowing how to interact with women. Again, if it's a problem or distraction for the gaming group one or both parties need to go.
I don't game with my fiance, but I know many people here game with their wives or girlfriends and seem to have fun. I have no idea why, to me gaming night is like poker night - ah well. Obviously there can be issues with favoritism (DM/Player relation) but they must be doing something right if they can keep up a weekly game. I would guess that if one of the players is a significant other then the solution would be to establish a level of personal respect for all parties and to check any kind of jerkiness at the door. If it works for couples I would assume that a strong DM and group could keep it going for public games.
All that being said - I don't think that content should be adjusted or censored for anyone at the table. If I am running a grown-up games for grown ups then it will have the content that I feel is relevant to story that is unfolding. That means everything is on the table - all the ugliness. If someone cannot or does not want to be exposed then they need not play the game. I don't think that there should be ratings or that the issue of rape or other horrific events should be purged to protect one potential demographics sensitivity while retaining brutality, murder, war, killing and violence are retained in the same game. That imo, would just be moronic.
Sadly, this thread was doomed to idiotic left-right pandering. Didn't even get off the first page.
Yes, doomed from the start.
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Props to the OP for being brave enough to explore the issue with critical thought and public discourse... And he's not entirely wrong either. Even if all you're doing is being nicer to her than anyone esle you can definitely be in creeper territory if she doesnt want you to treat her that way.
Politeness and chivalry can definitely still be 'creeper', and sometimes people out there even wind up on the far end of the spectrum, who will think you're a creeper for
Theres no doubt that a gaming table can be a frustrating environment with these hangups. You just cant tackle the problem by making a 'global creeper list'... You could make a Jeff Foxworthy string of jokes... "If X... You might be a creeper."
I'd like to think these kind of people are the exception. Sort of 'chicken and the egg' or 'once bitten twice shy' kind of thing. If your experience has been bad and every table you sit at makes you feel like a side of beef at a barbecue convention then yeah... Your sensitivity bar is going to be on the fringe a bit. They probably come by it honest.
How you handle it though takes two stages.
Obviously the first stage is asking yourself what your motivations are.
Stage 2 is conflict resolution.
Does opening the hobby to women more mean that it's important to maintain a rigid "no chatting up" rule? Or a "no gender-related issues can ever come up in game" rule? Or some permutation? Or something else entirely?
As always you vote with your butt. If your campaign is full of bar wenches and butt slappin, some girls are fine with that and even play up feminine wiles in character, trying to seduce every npc out of their purse... While others get offended at how easy it is to just drag any poor damsel in distress upstairs for a roll'inde'hay. If those kinds of campaign flavor are in your game and a girl gamer can't handle it, you could choose to neuter the campaign, or you could choose to be glad she's not at your table telling you what her definition of wrongbadfun is. Both are acceptable answers but personally I say nah. Let her pick a different table. Being able to handle the playstyle of horny man-bear-pig or 'shameless twilight-style-sparkly-elven-seducers and lusty wenches and houses of ill repute are things the folks at my table are just going to have to get used to.
If the question is how do you keep a girl at the table when she's upset about being creepered by someone else at the table, the same solutions as above apply.
(—some women get very offended at the notion that a man 'allows her to be independent, and they're correct, they're not strong "only because we give them permission to be", but those same women are the ones telling you that you're "Preventing it by holding the door", which is blaming you for authority you never had—)
If you have a creepy smelly weirdo guy in your group, he is still a creepy smelly weirdo guy to the rest of the group of guys - so gender isn't an issue - tolerance is.
You want some advice - don't game with these clowns.
If they can't get a grasp of 5th grade hygiene and social norms then they shouldn't be gaming.
^ This is the bottom line of things. Anybody can spot a creepy individual. It isn't rocket science and it NOT rooted in attractiveness vs. unattractiveness. Choose better players for your games, players who don't act this way. It's no fun for guys or girls to deal with people like this. There's a reason that the gamemastery guide doesn't a player archetype listing for "Mega-Creep".
But let's get real here. Who the hell is still hitting on someone around a gaming table? Do those same people ask people out while playing monopoly or complement people during scrabble? It's utterly shameless, classless, and anybody with any respect for the game wouldn't act so disgustingly.
Pig #1 out.
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If you have a creepy smelly weirdo guy in your group, he is still a creepy smelly weirdo guy to the rest of the group of guys - so gender isn't an issue - tolerance is.
You want some advice - don't game with these clowns.
If they can't get a grasp of 5th grade hygiene and social norms then they shouldn't be gaming.
On the other hand, some girls would say Ed Greenwood is a creepy smelly wierdo. I'd pick Ed Greenwood at my table over that kinda girl 7 times out of 7 even if he'd just been stuck in coach for the last 30 hours with no chance for a shower. Even if he made a habit of it.
Bed head and halitosis are things I wouldnt want in someone i'm looking to share a sleeping bag with, but this is a game table, not an orgy. When it comes to game time, as long as they're a good gamer, I'd choose smelly creepy gamer over sexy with a bad attitude 7 days out of 7. For the very reason that I dont game to 'pick up on women'.
I only say this because I'm a single dad, and theres at least one guy at our table who smokes. I'd hate to tell this guy he cant game because his clothes smell like cigarettes and I'd hate for the rest of my table to say I couldnt game because at least at some point in the night there's going to be a diaper that needs changing in my apartment, and the only way we're going to know 'it's time' is by smell' You will smell baby poop at my gaming table.. Thats just the way it is. Life is hard. Living a life protecting yourself from having to smell anything you don't want to smell is no kind of life. uh. YMMV. Heheheheh.
Didn't read all the comment, but the original posts definition of "creepy" is pretty offensive. As some of the others said, creepy is about giving unwanted attention.
And, as I pointed out, 9 times out of 10, "unwanted" is a subconscious function of hormones, height, and grooming -- like it or not, that's what decides things in most cases.
So is this simpler than "gaming" and it just becomes a general thing -- "gentlemen, if you're not tall, well-groomed, wealthy, and brimming with testosterone, DO NOT talk to females; it's unwanted and downright offensive!"
I should add that I don't think I've ever had a problem in a home game with any of this; I'm approaching it more from the standpoint of public places -- game stores and cons and so on. As host and DM, I'd generally prefer that no players hit on each other while the rest of us are trying to play -- regardless of gender! But I don't claim to be the enforcer of what people do or don't do in a public setting.
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...and (c) simple lack of height.
Hold on... short guys are considered creepy for no reason other than being short? Are fat people creepy, too? What do all the tall, skinny people think? The rest of us should have bought more tickets to the genetic lottery.
-Skeld
Humm...
This topic has gotten me thinking on this subject.
First some information on me so as to give you some context.
1.) I am Male.
2.) I am Married.
3.) I am in my 30's
4.) I am short (5'6)
5.) I am overweight (190 lbs)
6.) I am balding severely and have been doing so since my early 20's.
7.) I was raised in a household with only female role models.
8.) 90% of my friends until the last 2-3 years have been Female. I recently made another Male friend bringing my total up to two.
9.) A lot of what is being called "White Knighting" in this thread is part of my normal behavior. I.E. Holding doors/chairs, offering seats, and stepping out of elevators to start.
I have caught some flack for this but the fact is that even the most hard core first wave feminists I have dealt with have after hearing my reasons laughed.
For me it is simple, you offer every living being respect until proven differently.
The elderly get "White Knighted" for their wisdom and experience, the sick as a courtesy due to the fact that you may be sick some day and would like the same applied to you.
As for the female half of our species it is because at the most basic, they are more important than the male. We need a large variety of females to perpetuate our species. But honestly only a few males. So treating women with respect and dignity slightly beyond what we give me is done for two reasons only.
One: You are trying to qualify yourself as a mate and are providing a display of power or comfort so as to try and attract attention.
Behaviors that fall in this category can include but are not limited to giving gifts, dispensing advice unsolicited or trying to make physical contact.
Two: You are aware of the fact that women are more important and are treating them with the deference they are due.
Behaviors that fall in this category can include but are not limited to Giving up seats, holding doors, and granting a woman the right of way.
Now in my opinion all of behavior one can easily be "Creeper" in nature. This behavior is predicated on attracting attention and displaying self after all.
Behavior two is slightly more subjective and is usually taken well as long as no attempt at bonding is made with strangers or the behavior is given universally to all members. This behavior should be predicated on deference and respect with no attempt to draw attention to self, but can be deemed "Creeper" if used to try to achieve reason one.
Now I am of the opinion that if you have a actual intelligent rational mature people at your gaming table that this will not be a problem.
The times this could be a problem include.
a.) Unwanted attention to a person of either gender. As a female is completely able to be a "Creeper".
b.) A person continues any behavior after being told to stop.
c.) A person is uncomfortable with a behavior but unwilling/too shy/ afraid to ask/tell for it to stop.
d.) An egregious single action such as any unwanted touching is performed.
e.) Situations are created where someone is made uncomfortable due to societal acceptance of a behavior/setting.
All of the above are due to lack of communication.
I have several examples.
Example one:
My wife and I love to go out for Dim Sum with one of my wife's friends. My wife's friend is a wonderful person.
She after the second time we all went out approached me and informed me that she was unhappy with my behavior. When I asked what I was doing that upset her she informed me that the fact was I had paid for both meals.
I blinked and then said "Yes?" She informed me that as a single woman she could pay for her own meal every time or we could trade checks so that we took turns paying. She was upset for several reasons including the fact that she did not want me to feel obligated to pay as she was capable of doing so herself, she did not want to be an inconvenience/burden, and she felt that the only reason I was paying was because she was a woman and that made her feel looked down on as if I was trying to "Take care" of her.
I apologized and explained that no it was simply my habit to pay group checks when I went out with friends of either gender but while I would prefer not to split checks would she be OK with paying alternating checks as it was just easier.
She was fine with this and we continued on this way for several years. For a period of months though it did get to be a game of who could grab the check first after she paid for several in a row even when it was my turn.
I found out later that she was rather incredulous about my explanation but after asking around and going on several other group excursions realized I was telling the truth.
She and I still laugh about it. As I said she is a wonderful person.
Example two: This one will be left deliberately vague.
I have both been the recipient of and had to put a stop to focused attention that is directed where it is not welcome.
I will not get in more in depth but suffice to say that I have seen Male -> Female unwanted attention, Female -> Male unwanted attention, Male -> Male unwanted attention, and Female -> Female unwanted attention.
To be blunt this has mostly happened at conventions/FLGS. I have a strict zero tolerance policy due to the fact that I know how uncomfortable it can be first hand.
I think to paraphrase the 8th dwarf "She/He is not interested. Gaming is generally not for picking up dates, focus on the game, don't make it weird."
I guess I was just raised in an old fashioned way. Pressing attention/interaction on anyone in a way that makes them uncomfortable is in my opinion wrong.
I would not do so, and will not tolerate such at my gaming table. I also do not tolerate bad hygiene, and dirty/ragged dress as well. I have stopped Con games to inform a player that "No he may not play at my table, with his gut hanging 10 inches out through a ripped hole in a dirty shirt and his too small shorts riding up while his B.O. stank out the table."
I expect all players to act as mature adults and to be clean/dressed/act appropriately period.
In short I feel that outside of unwanted attention/touching, which should in my opinion be dealt with in a no tolerance manner regardless of gender, the "Creeper" problem can be avoided/dealt with by proper communication and adult behavior.
Know what is appropriate for your environment, and usually, I would say 99% of the time Dating or dating-like behavior is not appropriate at a game/Con/FLGS.
Just my 0.02.
P.S. Even with my wife's friend, that I know of I have never been called or thought of as a "Creeper".
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Let's get something straight about "gender equality."
Men and women are different. Why pretend otherwise? Then we just end up with frustrated males and frustrated females. No one wants to be frustrated.
For example, as a man, I would have no idea how to raise and support a child. No idea. None. I would fail. I think, largely, males don't have a "motherly" instinct. Yes, there are exceptions to this rule, but aren't there always?
TL;DR, this whole thing is silly.
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It's the statement that general "creeper behavior" is pervasive, and needs to be eliminated. Because, as near as I can tell, "creeper behavior" is defined as "being hit on by some guy whom I think is a creep." (Again, please correct this definition as needed; it needs a lot of polishing.)
The confusion I have is that the things a hetero woman typically finds "creepy" are (a) lower levels of testosterone-induced pheromones; (b) dressing and/or grooming in a sloppy manner (unless it's pointedly sloppy -- i.e., hipster); and (c) simple lack of height. (One can split hairs and/or add or subtract from the list, but I'm talking physiology, not philosophy.) Confusing things still further, in some cases (although not all by a long shot), a man with one, two, or all three of these things, can instead be considered a creep for NOT showing an interest.
I'm not sure where you got your definition of "things a hetero woman typically finds creepy" from, but it doesn't sound very accurate. Actually, it sounds a bit "flame-baity" ... but, then again, threads about this sort of topic generally devolve into flame wars pretty quickly no matter how you phrase thing. Such is life on the internet.
Assuming your question is a serious one and you are not trying to pester the mods into locking down another thread, we can start by safely tossing out two of those examples of "creeper behavior". I don't think anyone of any gender would honestly consider someone "creepy" simply because they're short, or suffer from low levels of whatever you mean by "testosterone-induced pheromones".
Trying to come up with a list of "creepy behaviors" is also pretty pointless, considering how subjective and situational personal interactions are. I'm sure we can all give some clear examples of appropriate/creeper behavior on paper, but those neatly described examples tend to fall apart in reality. What one person perceives as creepy another person easily may not (outside some of the more extreme examples). All genders contain a large share of idiots, we don't get to "peek behind the curtain" and see intentions, and we all have to filter events through an extensive and universal list of cognitive biases.
Having said that, there are a couple fairly simple things we can all do to make the gaming experience (and, also, the non-gaming experience) better for women, men, and all other possible variation of gender. For example:
1. Having poor hygiene doesn't automatically make you creepy, but not showering or brushing your teeth can make you unpleasant to be around and being unpleasant can make vaguely creepy behavior seem more creeperish (cognitive bias and whatnot). So making an effort to bathe, use mouthwash, and wear clean clothes that fit is a good, non-creepy thing to do when you plan to interact with other humans in a social setting.
2. Don't touch strangers. You don't know where they've been. Also, they might not want you to. If you really, really get excited and just have to have physical contact with your neighbor at the table after they crit the big bad then offering a high five or fist bump is fine. Some/most people are particular about their personal space, so you should just err on the side of caution when dealing with people who aren't friends. When in doubt, don't do it.
3. Play your own character and don't give unsolicited advice. If someone else is playing or building their character and you think you could do it better and just have to tell them the best way to do it ... don't. Just smile and mentally repeat the phrase "mistakes are how we learn" to yourself. If someone has a question, they'll ask. Then you may answer. If a person isn't asking for help then they probably don't want it. And that's ok.
There. Three very simple things that will help reduce the amount of creepiness in any room. Not an exhaustive list, but a good place to start.
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I think "don't try to date at the gaming table" is a pretty good rule. Whether you are handsome, ugly, tall short fat rich poor whatever and whatnot, no one came to the table to find a date. They came there to game. If you are sitting there half-drooling over the "chick" at the table (regardless of how they are dressed) then you are the problem. She's there to game. Treat her accordingly.
I've gamed with quite a few women over the year- most of them the wives or GF's of the other gamers. They are there to game too, not get stared at by single guys.
I, personally, disagree with "don't give them your chair, open the door, etc" but thats because.. Thats how I treat women. Its how I was raised and I'm not going to change that behavior just because I'm at a D&D game.
To be fair though, I hold the door open for anyone if they are right behind me and am willing to give up my chair if someone else is in need of it and there isn't another appropriate.
Don't want to be a "creeper"?
1) Don't ask the ladies at the table out to date. They are here to game.
2) Don't stare. Regardless of their attire, they are there to game. If you have a problem with their clothing address it before or after. (this goes to guys too. Guys can dress inappropriately too- though defining that is of course up to the group's tolerance).
3) Treat 'em like you treat everyone else. If you aren't a door-holder-opener then don't become one. If you don't usually ask if anyone wants a drink when you get up, don't start just cuz a woman is at the table.
I personally think of "creeper" behavior as "different" behavior.
Be you. Your group should be themselves. If there's a lady present. Good. Let her be herself too. :)
Longer than I'd originally intended..
but ah well :)
-S
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I think the point the OP is trying to make is this:
Let's say a male is paying a lot of attention to a woman, complementing her (perhaps a little too much?), asking about her interests and whether she's seeing anyone, and basically making it known that he's really attracted to her.
If that male looks like Brad Pitt or a GQ model, the woman will be flattered by the attention, whether she actually goes out with him or not.
If the male looks like Danny DeVito, she will be creeped out by it.
The same thing goes in reverse if a woman is hitting on a guy. If she's a gorgeous model, the guy will be flattered, even if he turns her down. If she looks like Roseanne Barr, he'll be creeped out by it.
I and many, many other people have seen this at play numerous times in our lives, it's no use denying that it is a factor. The beautiful people can give some cheesy pick-up line and that will just get a smile and start a conversation, while an uglier person giving the same line elicits a "Eeww, get away from me!"
That said, perhaps that isn't what should be focused on for a "behavior at the game table" kind of thread.
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This is a bitter field, to be sure. The ground was poisoned and tainted when the first proto-human got rejected in favour of someone more attractive. It is not going to be solved here. One reason it happens is that we attach enormous and unmeasurable masses of status to the situation. Everyone reacts in different ways to that, because it has such a profound effect on a person's self-image. And those reactions are virtually guaranteed to end up costing someone else. "I don't think of you like that" "Girls are shallow, evil people" "How dare you insult me by holding doors open for me?" "All men are creepy sleazebags" Yeah. We have all felt those things. We have been there. Most of us learn to look past it.
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This is a bitter field, to be sure. The ground was poisoned and tainted when the first proto-human got rejected in favour of someone more attractive. It is not going to be solved here. One reason it happens is that we attach enormous and unmeasurable masses of status to the situation. Everyone reacts in different ways to that, because it has such a profound effect on a person's self-image. And those reactions are virtually guaranteed to end up costing someone else. "I don't think of you like that" "Girls are shallow, evil people" "How dare you insult me by holding doors open for me?" "All men are creepy sleazebags" Yeah. We have all felt those things. We have been there. Most of us learn to look past it.
Yes, and then add in the following: Gamers generally would IMO prefer to date a fellow gamer. RPGs are seen by most guys as something that will likely turn off any non-gamer woman they date. We feel we need to hide our interest in gaming at first, and only later maybe mention it casually and hope she understands and doesn't get upset at the idea of having the gang over once a week for RPG night. Actually finding someone that you not only don't need to hide your interest from, but enjoys RPGs herself, thus giving you a common shared interest rather than a "shameful secret", is a dream come true for most gamers. So when a female gamer arrives at the table, she's likely going to draw attention from the single guys for that reason alone, even if she's just there to play a game and isn't interested in finding a boyfriend.
Samurai can I ask how old you are?
This is a bitter field, to be sure. The ground was poisoned and tainted when the first proto-human got rejected in favour of someone more attractive. It is not going to be solved here. One reason it happens is that we attach enormous and unmeasurable masses of status to the situation. Everyone reacts in different ways to that, because it has such a profound effect on a person's self-image. And those reactions are virtually guaranteed to end up costing someone else. "I don't think of you like that" "Girls are shallow, evil people" "How dare you insult me by holding doors open for me?" "All men are creepy sleazebags" Yeah. We have all felt those things. We have been there. Most of us learn to look past it.Yes, and then add in the following: Gamers generally would IMO prefer to date a fellow gamer. RPGs are seen by most guys as something that will likely turn off any non-gamer woman they date. We feel we need to hide our interest in gaming at first, and only later maybe mention it casually and hope she understands and doesn't get upset at the idea of having the gang over once a week for RPG night. Actually finding someone that you not only don't need to hide your interest from, but enjoys RPGs herself, thus giving you a common shared interest rather than a "shameful secret", is a dream come true for most gamers. So when a female gamer arrives at the table, she's likely going to draw attention from the single guys for that reason alone, even if she's just there to play a game and isn't interested in finding a boyfriend.
I don't disagree that men have this sentiment. Heck, I'd love to find a gamer girlfriend.
But you have to put yourselves into the shoes of the other person as well.
A woman comes to the game and is hit on after a session or two (or three). Is she going to keep coming to the game? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on her, and depends on how the guy acts about it.
Its true that she Will draw that attention. And its that very attention that we men need to avoid giving her. Treat her like part of the group, not like she's a deer and the guys are hungry wolves. She likely didn't show up wanting to spend a gaming session fending guys off and she shouldn't be expected to.
-S
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I don't disagree that men have this sentiment. Heck, I'd love to find a gamer girlfriend.
But you have to put yourselves into the shoes of the other person as well.
A woman comes to the game and is hit on after a session or two (or three). Is she going to keep coming to the game? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on her, and depends on how the guy acts about it.Its true that she Will draw that attention. And its that very attention that we men need to avoid giving her. Treat her like part of the group, not like she's a deer and the guys are hungry wolves. She likely didn't show up wanting to spend a gaming session fending guys off and she shouldn't be expected to.
-S
I understand that, and so at the gaming table, I always try to treat women as just another gamer. If I'd like to ask her out, I never do it during the game. I'd probably chat with her a bit after the game, ask for her number, and then call her later if she was interested, but that's all hypothetical right now. My Pathfinder group is all guys, and when I was running 4e Encounters, the women that played were either married or less than 1/2 my age, so they were all just fellow gamers, nothing more.
I just wish that when such things do happen, unless the guy is being obnoxious or crude, the woman would try to look upon it as a compliment even if she's uninterested, and let the guy down easy instead of calling him a "creep".
Well that blows that theory out of the water.... Similar age to me hmmm.
I will put it down to massive cultural differences then.
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Well that blows that theory out of the water.... Similar age to me hmmm.
I will put it down to massive cultural differences then.
If anything, I would think younger women would be much more accepting of gaming, for 2 main reasons:
1) She grew up in an era of RPGs on video games, etc, so she'll know and be more understanding of them, while women who grew up in my era tend to say "D&D? Isn't that the Satanic game that lead to some killings years ago?"
2) Women my age tend to have a real hang-up on "men that still want to act like boys", which is how they view playing a role-playing game. Books have been written on the subject, and women in their 30's and 40's don't want "immature guys". Younger women don't tend to require their boyfriends to give up gaming because they don't yet place such a great emphasis on "maturity", but rather "having fun".
What culture are you from that women our age are very accepting of guys playing RPG's? What has your experience been?
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The smelly creepy guy thing.....
I have had friends, who because they were neglected by their parents or in one case coming out of depression and dealing with an anxiety disorder, did not know how to or think of caring for themselves.
As they were my friends I would let them know that they needed a shower, I encouraged them to socialize and build their, conversation skills and to get over their awkwardness.
So when you pour scorn on the smelly creepy guys... It could be some poor dude trying to put his life back together or some guy who had s*&& bags for parents....
If they smell tell them politely and quietly that they need some deodorant.
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The smelly creepy guy thing.....
I have had friends, who because they were neglected by their parents or in one case coming out of depression and dealing with an anxiety disorder, did not know how to or think of caring for themselves.
As they were my friends I would let them know that they needed a shower, I encouraged them to socialize and build their, conversation skills and to get over their awkwardness.
So when you pour scorn on the smelly creepy guys... It could be some poor dude trying to put his life back together or some guy who had s!!! bags for parents....
If they smell tell them politely and quietly that they need some deodorant.
This, so very much this.
I'd say that 90% of these 'Creepy' guys are actually some fairly ok people once you get talking, and that they have a bit of stuff to work through.
It's a good thing they found gaming, as it is generally a pretty accepting hobby where they can get a little escape, and maybe a little socialisation in a non-threatening environment.
All of a sudden the hobby dialogue is turning to 'how can we run the unappealing people out of town', as though gaming became some kind of Zoolander Hobby for the Beautiful only.
The whole conversation smacks of elitism.
I know a few guys like this, they just needed a hand up, not a smack down.
I am 40
Primarily of Northern European descent... My great grandfather was Australian Aboriginal.
I grew up in a small costal town with banana and sugar plantations and a fishing fleet.
I played Rugby badly, I surfed badly.
I used to be a ginger.... As I got older my hair went dark..only my beard is ginger now.
My mother was a radical feminist.
I am an Atheist/humanist
I am Married and have 2 children
Work in IT for an Evil Bank, against my Green Leftist ideals....
My conservative friends would describe me as a Chardonay Socialist, I am more of a disillusioned Fabian.
My Mother was the first person I GMed a game for.... Way back in the 1980's. She had fun but did not have the time to play.
My group in Highschool had one female player. She was driven away by a nice guy who asked her out, all the time, he wasn't rude or aggressive and he bought her flowers and chocolates but she wasn't interested and it wore her down... She would play if he wasn't there but as he owned the books... I was the youngest person in the game and when I said to the guy that he was being overbearing I was ignored.
At Uni it was an all guy group for a while... Then a 50/50 group of women the same age. When I first moved to Sydney I played in a Werewolf game where the storyteller was an older woman.
My wife and the wives of my friends have played and will play on occasion... My wife has the spookiest most terrifying Vampire characters I have ever come across.
At the moment my home game is all guys but if my wife or the wives of the other players want to play there is a place at the table for them.
The only teasing I get is from a friends wife who calls us Geeks, as she boots up WoW or puts on the latest Dr Who DVD, we call her a Nerd in return.
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I am 40
Primarily of Northern European descent... My great grandfather was Australian Aboriginal.
I grew up in a small costal town with banana and sugar plantations and a fishing fleet.
I played Rugby badly, I surfed badly.
I used to be a ginger.... As I got older my hair went dark..only my beard is ginger now.
My mother was a radical feminist.I am an Atheist/humanist
I am Married and have 2 children
Work in IT for an Evil Bank, against my Green Leftist ideals....
My conservative friends would describe me as a Chardonay Socialist, I am more of a disillusioned Fabian.
My Mother was the first person I GMed a game for.... Way back in the 1980's. She had fun but did not have the time to play.
My group in Highschool had one female player. She was driven away by a nice guy who asked her out, all the time, he wasn't rude or aggressive and he bought her flowers and chocolates but she wasn't interested and it wore her down... She would play if he wasn't there but as he owned the books... I was the youngest person in the game and when I said to the guy that he was being overbearing I was ignored.
At Uni it was an all guy group for a while... Then a 50/50 group of women the same age. When I first moved to Sydney I played in a Werewolf game where the storyteller was an older woman.
My wife and the wives of my friends have played and will play on occasion... My wife has the spookiest most terrifying Vampire characters I have ever come across.
At the moment my home game is all guys but if my wife or the wives of the other players want to play there is a place at the table for them.
The only teasing I get is from a friends wife who calls us Geeks, as she boots up WoW or puts on the latest Dr Who DVD, we call her a Nerd in return.
Did your wife or the other wives play before you met them, or did you introduce them to the hobby? And were they already nerds/geeks (liked Dr Who, WoW, etc) who then branched over to gaming as well, or did they find those other interests after being introduced to gaming?
I think if one can find a geek girl into comics, fantasy, sci-fi, and computer games, RPGs are no big deal to them. They'll "get it". (They'll also likely have the same experience of being a rare and prized treasure to a lot of geeky guys with little social skills, gamers or not) But finding such women when you are already in your 40's is almost as hard as finding a gamer girl.
By contrast, I'm talking about women with no knowledge of or interest in geeky stuff, ordinary women totally unrelated to that scene. They have no knowledge of RPGs or comics or wizards... The only vampires they know are Dracula and that sparkly kid in the Twilight movies. When you try explaining RPGs to some 40 year old woman like that, you'll find that understanding and acceptance can be very hard to come by.
Whilst the 8th and I have a lot in common, I suspect we live in rather different locales, as the mere suggestion of having gaming as a hobby would have you looked at like you just popped an extra head out of your shoulder over here in north shore land. The 'soccer mums' would just stare at you big time. You can be one of the 'dad' set and play computer games (preferrably consoles though) and they find it quaint and quirky that when their kids mention Minecraft/Warcraft I can talk about it.
Tabletop gaming would have them in complete meltdown.
No surprise I generally leave gaming out of most conversations around them.
Shifty - I forgot you live on the other side of the bridge.... I was born in the Gong but grew up on the Far North Coast 45 mins south of Byron Bay.... Hippies, Sea Changers, retirees, farmers, and fishermen.
Sam - Only 3 of the women I have played with came to the game without being introduced to it by bothers or boyfriends.
That being said all of the women I am friends with have always been scifi fans....
My grandmother was an artist who painted and drew fairys and goblins, she loved horror movies and when she looked after me we watched them together. I still remember the first horror movie I saw I was 4 years old and we watched The Beast Must Die.
My mum loved Dr Who, Blake 7, Quark, Battlestar, Buck Rodgers....and took me to Star Wars when it came out, she told dad how good it was and so we went again, then she told my grandmother and mum and I saw it for the 3rd time with her.
The first the girl in our highschool group, she was a scifi fan she found the Basic Box in a bookstore in Sydney.
At Uni I lived in a residential College the floors were mixed gender 50/50 split 16 male 16 female....
There were a good number of female scifi fans.... We were one of the few floors where the common room had its own tv and video player as we put our money together and bought one... Red Dwarf night allways had the room full. When we hired scifi movies it was always a good split in genders in the room.
2 of the women I met through the Uni RPG club came to the game by seeing the books in the scifi section of the bookshop.
My wife who lived in the room next door to me in college, reads LotR once a year she is an English lit major.... her favourite marvel characters are Rogue and Gambit, she will watch scifi with me any time. I am not much of a Marvel or DC fan as all of their Australian super hero's are insulting to say the least. Give me Commando or 2000 AD or Viz instead.
I introduced my wife to pen and paper RPGs but she had played computer based RPGs, like Pools of Radiance and Dragon Lance before we met.
I am lucky I suppose and my friends are lucky as well as they found partners with similar interests..
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From the corner of a 28 year old married male...
My wife has more nerd cred than me. Her primary role-playing experience is under GM Dave Arneson. Yes, that Dave Arneson. She's trying to get me to run Cults of Nyarlathotep in the near future and possesses the oldest RP books in the house. When we game together, we're usually among mutual friends. Nobody hits on her but me, and even I suppress that for 98% of the time I'm at the table. This is a complete non-issue for her.
When I play with other female gamers, I make a concerted effort to treat other players equally. That said, I've been known to swap recipes during break times and/or chat character concepts more frequently with the female players because they're interested in doing so. I make the concerted effort to be "just a guy" at the table, in hopes that my attitude will mean that they don't feel put out from coming back to the venue or feel uncomfortable in general.
It is my serious hope that I am not in the minority.