RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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uh...i think you may be taking away more from than i intended. I live in a big city, and i have seen knock down fights break out due to the latter part f what kthluhu mentioned. This has nothing to do with trying to get in anyones pants or anything, but more of a misunderstanding what someone who is smiling at you(or in one memorale situation, just smiling in your direction) means. Going around thinking you;'re entitled to a phone number or sexual favors is bad. Going around assuming that someone who is simply being courteous(or in my experience, lost and asking for directions) is trying to mack on you is also bad.
This.
Funny High School Story:
Her: Why are you staring at me?
Me: I'm not staring at you.
Her: Yes you were.
Me: No, I was thinking. You just happened to be in my line of sight.
Her: No, you were staring at me.
Me: *sighs* I was just wondering.
Her: Wondering what?
Me: Just how low... do those freckles go?
Her: *sputters, turns beet red*
Now it became a joke between us, again, she was our Margaret Dumont, so "I was just wondering..." would be enough to get her going.
Now here's the question. Who was in the wrong? Me for happening to be staring through the space she was occupying? Her for not taking the truth for the answer? Me for turning it into a bit of innuendo?
Follow up
Her: Ask Ken (Her boyfriend at the time.) *realizes what she said* Oh G_d! No! Do not ask Ken! Do not go NEAR Ken!
Then even later.
ME:*CHatting with Ken and Sheri* Hey Ken, I've a question for you.
*Sheri doesn't notice*
Ken: Sure Matt, what is it?
ME: I was just wondering... *all the colour drains from Sheri's face, as she tries to pull him away* Just how low do Sheri's freckles go?
Ken: All the way down.
*she proceeds to start pummling him.*
Now the above was a special case, as she was one of my best friends in High School, and I miss her painfully every day. But just because I comment on someone's appearance/personality/other aspect of their being doesn't mean that I'm trying to 'score' nor does it mean that they should get their knickers in a bunch.
Aside: When relating stories of our high school antics to the godkids, their dad and I always have to preface with "Now remember, this was before Columbine. DO NOT DO THIS."
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If one thinks that telling rape jokes is a way to hit on women (which is what Kthulu talking about--not all of the other creeper behavior), then there's probably not much this thread can help them with.Again, it goes back the that SNL video. If the person you are hitting on finds you attractive, then you are not (to them) a creep. If the person you are trying to vaguely interact with (such as saying "hello") finds you unattractive, then you are (to them) a creep.So there's nothing you can or should do, right?
Guys should just keep being guys. If that creeps women out and more of them stay away from the hobby, that's their problem not ours.
If strange women don't like your rape jokes, your sexist comments, your friendly "casual" touches, your refusal to stop or any of the other things that have been brought up repeatedly, that's their problem. It's not your fault. Except maybe that you're not attractive enough. If only you were taller.
Except that the handful of actual useful posts on this thread have called out actual specific behaviors. And they've been drowned out in a sea of "guys just don't pick up on social cues" and "it would be fine if she found him attractive".
All the defense of obnoxious behavior and idea that it's all the women's problem with no need for guys to change at all, since they have no control over whether someone finds them creepy or not just pisses me off. I'm pretty socially inept and I can manage to interact with women without freaking them out.
- Maybe "rape jokes" should have been "attempts to rape her character", but it was pithier.
You know what? I went back and went through this thread and I found only two posts that are about anything like what you're talking about in the bolded part and they don't even show up to the third page or something.
Get off your high horse.
Also, to be honest, I usually only read the posts by people I know and others who have caught my attention. Of the female posters that I've been paying attention to, we've got Madame Sissyl, Comrade Slaad, and, now, Ms. Aranna and none of them have been talking about attempts to rape their characters or anything like that, or if they did, I didn't notice.Most of the other female posters, I think, have tended to be Paizo employees and I don't read their posts because they delete mine.
I guess that's all I have to say other than I read Kthulu's post way differently than you did and it's probably fruitless for us to argue about what he meant when I'm sure he can come back and argue on his own behalf.
Also, goblins still do it in the street.
What I get from this is that your opinion is now worthless on the subject. You're self-selecting what you want to pay attention to, and it so happens that you're ignoring people who disagree with you or present valid information that runs counter to what you're saying.
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What I get from this is that your opinion is now worthless on the subject. You're self-selecting what you want to pay attention to, and it so happens that you're ignoring people who disagree with you or present valid information that runs counter to what you're saying.
Also, to be honest, I usually only read the posts by people I know and others who have caught my attention. Of the female posters that I've been paying attention to, we've got Madame Sissyl, Comrade Slaad, and, now, Ms. Aranna and none of them have been talking about attempts to rape their characters or anything like that, or if they did, I didn't notice.Most of the other female posters, I think, have tended to be Paizo employees and I don't read their posts because they delete mine.
I guess that's all I have to say other than I read Kthulu's post way differently than you did and it's probably fruitless for us to argue about what he meant when I'm sure he can come back and argue on his own behalf.
Also, goblins still do it in the street.
Yes, I'm ignoring two people. My opinion is worthless.
From your flippant remark, I get the sense that you don't care what I have to say either. No worries.
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So expecting to not be taken as a creep when you say hello because you aren't pretty is entitlement?I don't expect people not to assume I'm a fire-breathing demon from the abyss. That's their own business.
damn double negatives!!!
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So expecting to not be taken as a creep when you say hello because you aren't pretty is entitlement?
Yes, it is. If you think that you should have any control whatsoever over what complete strangers think of you, you are not treating them like human beings. You are not the innocent guy saying hello and there is probably much more to the story.
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From your flippant remark, I get the sense that you don't care what I have to say either. No worries.
Fine then.
First off, your argument falls apart because it assumes that those three posters that I mentioned are in agreement, which isn't true.
Second off, what exactly did either of those two people say that I disagree with? Please, give an example.
Third, what information that runs counter to my argument am I ignoring? Please, give an example.
Fourth, oh yeah, what is my argument again?
Because I don't believe I have ever once argued...you know what? No, what do you think my argument is?
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I apologize for telling you to get off your high horse, Comrade Jeff.
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So expecting to not be taken as a creep when you say hello because you aren't pretty is entitlement?Yes, it is. If you think that you should have any control whatsoever over what complete strangers think of you, you are not treating them like human beings. You are not the innocent guy saying hello and there is probably much more to the story.
I disagree. Expecting strangers to treat you like a human being is not entitlement, and the one jumping to the conclusion about the other is in the wrong.
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So expecting to not be taken as a creep when you say hello because you aren't pretty is entitlement?Yes, it is. If you think that you should have any control whatsoever over what complete strangers think of you, you are not treating them like human beings. You are not the innocent guy saying hello and there is probably much more to the story.
except that particular train doesnt travel very far. I cant control what strangers think, natch. But i dont think i should be assumed to be dangerous simply because i'm black, male, heterosexual, or under 40. Even if someone does assume that, it doesnt make it okay to think me guilty of some vile crime or assume I am in the premeditative phase, and go for first blood and attempt to assault or accost me or accuse me if i approach them courteously. Not everyone is out to get someone, and besides the nakedly obvious situations(rape jokes, attempting to accost someone's character or personage, refusing to leave someone alone when they ask or demand), I would like to not necessarily automatically receive the benefit of the doubt, I would like a generous amount of doubt to exist.
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"Man, I can't believe that guy told me to get off my high horse," Palladin Bob said.
"Well, Bob, you are the only palladin around with a Giraffe as a mount, you know, I'm just saying," Wizard Dave replied.
Hee hee!
That's not Voltaire!
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To be fair I have never had anyone make any unwelcome advances during a Con. I have been approached but that is different. Most guys I have met can figure out when I tell them I am not interested that just maybe I am really not interested. Why pick up someone at a con anyway? The odds are you will live hundreds of miles away from them.
I see a lot more of the "looking for hookups" at SF/Fantasy/Media cons than I do at gaming specific cons... where strangely enough, most of the people are there to game. That said, it's kind of part of the geek con scene, at least in the US. Some cons are more known for parties than others, and the party cons tend to have more of that sort of thing as well. Liquor as a social lubricant, I suppose.
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You've found one.
I game with several women. Interaction-wise, there is no problem. I tried to hit it off with one of them once, but when she eventually told me she wasn't interested, I backed off and didn't continue "wooing" her.
I do have the "wandering eye", though. I can't help but look; it usually happens involuntarily. When I notice, I quickly avert my eyes.
I am pretty sure all of the women in the group have noticed. I don't know if it's a problem for them, since none of them has told me to stop. I'd like to, though. I do not want to invade their personal space, even if it's just ogling them.
Attempting to contribute a "useful" post:
Well, if no one's said anything, you probably are okay for now and should use your borrowed time to train yourself to stop. These things have been known to simmer and explode and end badly for all involved.
Occasionally, though, they lead to hawt sex.
Not very often, though. Look away, man, look away!
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No it isn't. This is something that is discussed all the time. So many people in this thread implying that it's morally wrong that a woman may like some men and not others.
Subtle but important distinction: no one is objecting to the preference. What people are objecting to is the exact same behavior being labeled as creeper or non creeper based on that preference. People can be expected to regulate their behavior to a degree, but not someone's tastes.
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Y'know, this is why I haven't posted in thread yet. I don't doubt Kirth's aims in starting it, and the list of tips he compiled seem like good ones, but does anyone honestly believe that this thread will change anyone's behavior? I doubt that even one person will read this thread and say, "Zounds, I've been doing it all wrong! Mental note: be a better person!"
You've found one.
I game with several women. Interaction-wise, there is no problem. I tried to hit it off with one of them once, but when she eventually told me she wasn't interested, I backed off and didn't continue "wooing" her.
I do have the "wandering eye", though. I can't help but look; it usually happens involuntarily. When I notice, I quickly avert my eyes.
I am pretty sure all of the women in the group have noticed. I don't know if it's a problem for them, since none of them has told me to stop. I'd like to, though. I do not want to invade their personal space, even if it's just ogling them.
It was through a thread similar to this one that I learned to correct some things that I thought might be annoying some of my female friends. Discussions like this do help.
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Creeper behavior explained:
Attractive young woman wearing no bra and thin T-shirt at chilly airport.
Man watches as she walks by.
Woman stops, angry and berates man for looking.
Man smiles and says "if you didn't want attention, you wouldn't dress like that."
Woman says "I didn't want attention from you!"
Now, that's not to say that there aren't some creeps out there, but not all "creeper" behavior is truly "creepy."
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So expecting to not be taken as a creep when you say hello because you aren't pretty is entitlement?Yes, it is. If you think that you should have any control whatsoever over what complete strangers think of you, you are not treating them like human beings. You are not the innocent guy saying hello and there is probably much more to the story.
This is actualy where you should take it down a notch, Firefly. There's every bit of an equal chance that the guy beeing creeped out is the one acting unreasonably than the guy saying "hello". It's incredibly easy for humans to reach judgmental conclusions about one another, that often a person just making an honest attempt to be friendly would get shunned, and it wouldn't be his/her fault, but the fault of those who immidiatley dismiss him/her for whatever reason.
Going about saying, "If people react negativley to you, then YOU are doing something wrong" - especialy since I'm getting a vibe from you that the particular case you have in mind is a guy appraoching a girl... That's wrong. I am not sure exactly how to call it - sexism? maybe.
For example, I have a really good friend who happens to be really short. I'm talking like 1.55 meters here (google it if you are one of those people from the countrys using other wierd measurment units for distances), he looks like he isn't even in highschool yet. He is REALLY nice, has a great sense of humor, friendly, and I never saw him do any wrong to anyone, ever. Yet, people tend to have very negative reactions when they first meet him. I was shocked to see how many of the people in my surroundings were that superficial - they would get uncomfortable, avoid eye contact, and act in a very unseemly way all around.
If a guy is capable of being unpleasent when he approaches a girl, then a girl is equaly capable of beeing rude, superficial and unpleasent to a guy approaching her. Saying anything other than this is balatant sexism and narrow minded. So unless I misunderstood you (which could easily be the case), you are at fault for not beeing able to see things from more than your own point of view. Take a moment ro consider what you have been saying during that discussion and try to see if you could maybe make allowances that reality IS more complicated sometimes.
Y'know, this is why I haven't posted in thread yet. I don't doubt Kirth's aims in starting it, and the list of tips he compiled seem like good ones, but does anyone honestly believe that this thread will change anyone's behavior? I doubt that even one person will read this thread and say, "Zounds, I've been doing it all wrong! Mental note: be a better person!"
You've found one.
I game with several women. Interaction-wise, there is no problem. I tried to hit it off with one of them once, but when she eventually told me she wasn't interested, I backed off and didn't continue "wooing" her.
I do have the "wandering eye", though. I can't help but look; it usually happens involuntarily. When I notice, I quickly avert my eyes.
I am pretty sure all of the women in the group have noticed. I don't know if it's a problem for them, since none of them has told me to stop. I'd like to, though. I do not want to invade their personal space, even if it's just ogling them.
But you came to this discussion aware of all that, right?
I don't doubt that there are male gamers who are considerate enough to avoid the creeper title; I'm one of them. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have the conversation, either. I just think that anyone who behaves immaturely enough to get branded as a creeper probably isn't in the right headspace to honestly consider anything that's been said here.
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As soon as I saw this thread I though to myself grab some acid flasks and lighter fluid because here come the trolls.
But seriously I think How I met your mother had this covered with the romantic gesture/stalker creepy line. Same gesture is entirely defined by if the person targetted wants the attention. Safe assumption guys, if a girl wants you to hit on her she'll make it frakin obvious, like twirling her hair or touching you allot, if you don't know what flirting is jsut don't frakin' try.
I also think this thread misses the point of making the game more welcoming to memebers of the fairer sex by focusing on the most extreme example. If a girl is at a con she's already a gamer.
Last I checked clubs and bars have plenty of creepers but they are still fairly well attended by men and women alike.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This.Funny High School Story:
** spoiler omitted **Now here's the question. Who was in the wrong? Me for happening to be staring through the space she was occupying? Her for not taking the truth for the answer? Me for turning it into a bit of innuendo?
Follow up
** spoiler omitted **...Cute. Banter between actual friends is one thing. Not creepy.
Would you have tried the "how low do those freckles go" bit on a stranger you'd just met? Creepy. (Unless there's already actual flirtation from her side.)
Nope. But I have:
All of which simply means that I'm a guy who is friendly, not a creeper. I don't expect anything from anyone, man or woman, I talk with. But to read some of those posts, I should completely withdrawl from the world because someone somewhere might take offense at my actions and that would be my fault.
*
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So if I just habitually open doors for people of either gender, does that make me a creeper only the times I do it for females?
When I come to a door I make a decision on whether to hold the door for someone based on how efficient it is for both of us to get through the door. Frequently it's just more efficient if I hold the door instead of letting it slam in someone's face. I do the same for either gender.
But to this day I have yet to get snapped at by a guy for doing so.
Just sayin'
This is actualy where you should take it down a notch, Firefly. There's every bit of an equal chance that the guy beeing creeped out is the one acting unreasonably than the guy saying "hello".
If you're getting that sort of response enough times that you feel the need to make an issue out of it, I would say there's one common thread throughout all of those situations.
My father had a friend who would complain to them all the time about not being able to "get women".
He would tell him, "You don't even LIKE women."
And his friend would reply, "Well, THEY don't know that."
... but they do, of course. People who have an innate distrust for women act differently around them, in ways that are obviously not going to come across in their internet postings.
I also know a person who believes that blacks are mentally inferior. I don't have any proof that he acts in an inappropriate way with people of that race, but I certainly wouldn't take any of his reports of his interactions at face value.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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One other story.
At Origins one year, there was a magazine looking for female gamers for a photoshoot/interview. We had one very hot and very good Battletech player who caught their eye. (Seriously, she's very good at Battletech, her husband is involved in the old LotB website, and she cosplays as Natasha Kerensky. Because even five years ago the Battletech community was dying, either a) we treated her like a fellow gamer because she was familiar or b) corrected anyone who didn't.
I mention her because we had a more 'normal' looking woman, also part of a couple, dressed as a Word of Blake follower. Nowhere near as much skin, much more 'average looking'* but again a fellow gamer. I made sure to let her know where the event was, because since the magazine seemed legit, I knew she deserved her own place in it, as a female gamer. Again though, I treated her as any other gamer.
*
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I also know a person who believes that blacks are mentally inferior. I don't have any proof that he acts in an inappropriate way with people of that race, but I certainly wouldn't take any of his reports of his interactions at face value.
"I've made my mind up, don't confuse me with any data that contradicts it."
Got it.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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except that particular train doesnt travel very far. I cant control what strangers think, natch. But i dont think i should be assumed to be dangerous simply because i'm black, male, heterosexual, or under 40. Even if someone does assume that, it doesnt make it okay to think me guilty of some vile crime or assume I am in the premeditative phase, and go for first blood and attempt to assault or accost me or accuse me if i approach them courteously. Not everyone is out to get someone, and besides the nakedly obvious situations(rape jokes, attempting to accost someone's character or personage, refusing to leave someone alone when they ask or demand), I would like to not necessarily automatically receive the benefit of the doubt, I would like a generous amount of doubt to exist.
Actually I don't trust you because of that Elistraeee avatar ;-)
More seriously, you're absolutely right. There's another big guy here, less hair, older and black. Sometimes I wonder who they're more scared of on first impression, him or me? Funny thing is of course he's one of the nicest soft spoken men here.
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Second attempt at a "useful" contribution to the thread:
On the whole Sissyl/Caineach Non-Sexist Creeps and Cons
Went to a local con and was all excited because I was going to play Pathfinder all weekend long and get my character from 1st to 3rd level in one weekend! It was going to be awesome.
Boring Con Story
Went and met the people. Played two games with, I'd say, 10 people. I hate to say it, but they were all creeps in the non-sexist version of the term. When I told the story to my friends, I had long descriptions of each person that were hilarious, but I won't list them here because that would be mean. None of them were wearing a Winnie-the-Pooh outfit, but, still.
Worse than that, not a single one of them had an ounce of spark, vivacity, passion, anything. Making small talk was impossible. I think I had a long conversation with one guy about his collection of mechanical pencils. Every attempt I made at making the game fun was squashed with soul-numbing emotionlessness. It was the dreariest night I have ever had while playing role-playing games.
(There is, of course, the possibility that it is I who am the creep, but I have discounted this because there was another Paizonian who I was supposed to meet there, but didn't, who also sat with these players and, later, independently verified that they were all creeps. Of course, there's the possibility that both of us are creeps, but, hey this isn't academia...)
So, the next day, I went down and scoured the floor for other games. I found one (full disclosure: someone I knew was already at the table). I introduced myself to the DM, told him that my weekend was being ruined by terrible games and creepy players and asked him if I could sit in on his game. He readily agreed.
It was an awesome game of Serenity and the table had a blast and I flirted with a very beautiful and flirtatious woman from the ex-Soviet republic of Georgia (Vive le Galt!), but, alas, I didn't get her phone number because I didn't ask for it.
At the end of the game, the DM gave me a high five and told me that I did an awesome job of playing the pregen character and the table seemed to agree that the game was awesome. As the beautiful woman from Tbilsi walked away, my friend's wife told me to go get her. I watched her shapely form wind it's way sinuously through the function center and her buttocks were like...
[drools]
Sorry. Anyway, no I didn't go after her.
Anyway, anyway, how is this relevant or "useful"?
Well, I can't pretend that my experiences were anything like having someone threaten to rape my character (which didn't happen in this thread) or make anti-goblin comments, but I think we can still extract some lessons here:
--If the people you are playing with are creepy, get up and leave and go find other people who are less creepy.
--Otoh, if they are doing something like threatening to rape your character, confront the situation and make a big fuss. Take it from there.
--Otoh, if you're a sexist creep and are threatening to rape someone's character, please, do us all a favor and go home and kill yourself.
--If you're just a regular, non-sexist creep, just keep being your beautiful selves, I don't care.
If nobody at the con is anything other than a creep or a sexual harasser, well, I don't know, don't go to cons? Get a good home going?
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Yes, it is. If you think that you should have any control whatsoever over what complete strangers think of you, you are not treating them like human beings. You are not the innocent guy saying hello and there is probably much more to the story.
I don't think anyone is expecting too much when they feel that they should not immediately be earmarked as a creep on the sole grounds of saying hello to a fellow human being. That's not 'controlling other people', that's simply expecting other human beings to be...human.
The only entitlement here is that humans should feel entitled not to be ridiculed, insulted, or otherwise judged in a degrading manner by strangers for no reason. Saying hello to someone is not a reason.If he is not the innocent guy saying hello, what exactly is he guilty of?
Want to talk about creepy? Imagine all these posters took you at your word and next time at a con a female joins a table of guys and not one of them says hello, makes eye contact, or in any way acknowledges her presence. Winning? Not creeped out?
From your flippant remark, I get the sense that you don't care what I have to say either. No worries.Fine then.
First off, your argument falls apart because it assumes that those three posters that I mentioned are in agreement, which isn't true.
Second off, what exactly did either of those two people say that I disagree with? Please, give an example.
Third, what information that runs counter to my argument am I ignoring? Please, give an example.
Fourth, oh yeah, what is my argument again?
Because I don't believe I have ever once argued...you know what? No, what do you think my argument is?
I was responding to your post where you talked about how you didn't care what a bunch of people thought and reasons you thought their opinions were irrelevant, reasons that had nothing to do with what might appear in their posts. Did I misread it?
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So, where do I say I don't care what a bunch of people say? Where do I say I think their opinions are irrelevant?
Also, to be honest, I usually only read the posts by people I know and others who have caught my attention. Of the female posters that I've been paying attention to, we've got Madame Sissyl, Comrade Slaad, and, now, Ms. Aranna and none of them have been talking about attempts to rape their characters or anything like that, or if they did, I didn't notice.Most of the other female posters, I think, have tended to be Paizo employees and I don't read their posts because they delete mine.
I guess that's all I have to say other than I read Kthulu's post way differently than you did and it's probably fruitless for us to argue about what he meant when I'm sure he can come back and argue on his own behalf.
Also, goblins still do it in the street.
Yes, I'd say you misread it.
Edited - my snarkiness doesn't really help.
It's something that has been mentioned by numerous people in the previously locked thread as being a problem. I would suspect that a lot of them were immediately turned off by the premise of this thread, so they haven't posted here. Plus they were blatantly called liars regularly in the other thread as well.
A problem of sexism and rape culture do exist in our sub-culture. They are more representative of the wider culture than problems specific to gaming though.
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What I get from this is that you turned your snark on me because of what other people did in other threads.
Is that a retraction?
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I strongly believe at least one of them was completely unbelievable IT.
I find it curious that you are perfectly happy to assume that males are all qquite capable of lying and engaging in all sorts of horrid behaviour, but if it is a female that there is a 100% iron clad guarantee that everything stated is 100% true, not in any way shape or form could they be mistaken, and that they are automatically the most normal well adjusted members of society.
Gaming conventions aren't exactly the social hub of societies norms, they tend to attract some interesting characters with some interesting perspectives, up to an including classic creepers, consequently you get your share of odd-ball and kooky women as well as men, and yet oddly we assume that none of those kooks are posting here.
I think it's reasonable to question posters claims more closely, you don't seem to feel we have any grounds to do that, yet at the same time you feel comfortable interrogating others.
Double standards?
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This is actualy where you should take it down a notch, Firefly. There's every bit of an equal chance that the guy beeing creeped out is the one acting unreasonably than the guy saying "hello".If you're getting that sort of response enough times that you feel the need to make an issue out of it, I would say there's one common thread throughout all of those situations.
My father had a friend who would complain to them all the time about not being able to "get women".
He would tell him, "You don't even LIKE women."
And his friend would reply, "Well, THEY don't know that."... but they do, of course. People who have an innate distrust for women act differently around them, in ways that are obviously not going to come across in their internet postings.
I also know a person who believes that blacks are mentally inferior. I don't have any proof that he acts in an inappropriate way with people of that race, but I certainly wouldn't take any of his reports of his interactions at face value.
The point I was trying to get across is that we live in a very harsh society. People are judged based on a very fast first impression and that first impression is very often the product of how a person looks, and if he deviates from the accepted normal in either looks or any sort of behavior pattern, results may be ugly. I am trying to say that in my experience many excellent people might be rejected on first sight, and those poor people are not supposed to just curl as a ball somewhere and die quietly withrou intefering.
People (yes, women as well as men) are very often at fault for split second judgment. If person X is constantly rejected, it might just be because X is very short. Or maybe X is not very good with personal hygene. Or something. And while there is a space where you can legitimatley shake off someone when you realise you don't want anything to do with them, most people get to that point way faster than they should. Often when Iv'e seen people being pushed to the fringes of every group they tried to be a part of, it was because others just couldn't accpet them for what they were - even when it really wasn't thier (The X persons) fault. Hack, my best friend is overweight, unattractive in just every way imaginable, and has a bad case of the stutterers. He is a REALLY great guy, caring, funny, brilliant and passionate, yet still 90% of the people reject and ridicule him on a regular basis.
If I am failing to explain myself, just think "Tyrion" (from A Game of Thrones, the book version, not the show). Most everyone in the seven kingdoms hates him. It's REALLY not his fault. Such cases exist in our world and are actualy rather numerous, though of course most of them are not quite so exegerrated in proportion. Try and make sure you are not being part of this problem, is all I'm saying.
What I get from this is that you turned your snark on me because of what other people did in other threads.
Is that a retraction?
My snarkiness was a response to yours.
I get annoyed at people refusing to admit there is a problem.
Imagine if you were listening to some rich guy talk about how he's never seen a worker mistreated by his boss. Of course he mostly stays in his downtown office, but his secretary always acts respectful and happy, so he's pretty sure all workers are being treated fairly. He hears people complain about their jobs in social circles, but at his country club it's mostly complaints about taxes, regulations and union's screwing companies out of profits.
Is that a retraction?
No, just a taging ground for further baseless attacks :p
I strongly believe at least one of them was completely unbelievable IT.
I find it curious that you are perfectly happy to assume that males are all qquite capable of lying and engaging in all sorts of horrid behaviour, but if it is a female that there is a 100% iron clad guarantee that everything stated is 100% true, not in any way shape or form could they be mistaken, and that they are automatically the most normal well adjusted members of society.
Gaming conventions aren't exactly the social hub of societies norms, they tend to attract some interesting characters with some interesting perspectives, up to an including classic creepers, consequently you get your share of odd-ball and kooky women as well as men, and yet oddly we assume that none of those kooks are posting here.
I think it's reasonable to question posters claims more closely, you don't seem to feel we have any grounds to do that, yet at the same time you feel comfortable interrogating others.
Double standards?
I don't 100% believe women over men. I do know that people who have been the target of harassment often have a hard time speaking up. It's pretty common amongst all types of abuse too, sexual, child, domestic, school bullying, etc. Those who are the targets of abuse and harassment often do not step forward.
Being the target of harassment/abuse makes the recipient feel shame. They can start to internalize that they deserve to be treated like they were. This makes them less likely to speak up.
Harassment/abuse recipients sometimes fear reprisals, sometimes those fears are founded. Speaking up can make you a target for future abuse, both of the same kind and of different kinds. You might get labeled a trouble-maker at the very least. This makes them less likely to speak up.
They feel dis-empowered. They've been make to feel weak and less than their abuser. The feeling of weakness and helplessness makes it hard to speak up for yourself.
Statistics, which are somewhat unreliable due to the nature of the problem, show us that abused children have less than a 30% rate of reporting incidents. Just over half of all rapes go unreported.
In effect, when you start persecuting those who have been abused, you are providing help to the abusers, because you make it harder for those who are speaking up AND discourage more people from speaking up. That's what I find/found offensive about what you were doing. Many in the previous thread weren't nameless/faceless people. Their full names, under which they are currently employed and would probably use for future employment are attached to these comments. If you go to PaizoCon or GenCon, you could meet these people in person if you wanted.
So yes, if a woman is claiming something happened, but a bunch of men disagree, I'm more likely to believe the woman. The social and psychological factors involved indicate she is telling the truth.
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Locking thread.