My first thought is to always determine if there is actually a problem.
How does the player of the cavalier feel about the situation? Is he taking it in stride or is he pissed there was one encounter of the night that he didn't get to participate in?
If he is fine with it and understands that he got some bad rolls against a save or suck spell, and that can happen, then I wouldn't worry too much. If he is taking it poorly I would continue looking.
Next up, I would ask how this is different than someone who gets one-shotted by a critical hit or dies to a save-or-die spell. They are even more out of the game, but most groups accept this as part of the game.
If those are not good enough, and they may not be for your group, then I would consider taking a page from 4th edition and get rid of durations in exchange for continuing to save each round.
Sean Mahoney
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Deputize him as an assistant GM for the combat. Unload running some of the monster on him. This not only gets him involved it makes the combat go faster.
Deputize him as an assistant GM for the combat. Unload running some of the monster on him. This not only gets him involved it makes the combat go faster.
depending on the group that is dangerous. If the monsters he runs kill another pc there might be hard feelings.
I know it can be a bit frustrating to miss the only battle of a night due to some poor dice rolls. Unfortunately, it sometimes happens and as Sean Mahoney said, Pathfinder is filled with spells and abilities that can keep a player out of a combat for extended periods.
What did grab my attention was about the players not paying attention and chatting. This can be very distracting and I think it's a player obligation to show courtesy to you and other players by keeping up with what is happening and when it's their turn.
Ask them to keep chat to a minimum. Having to yell "next, Next, NEXT!!" to get their attention, really isn't cool. You might also encourage them to have their character's actions planned out before it's their go.
Good luck with it. (c:
Ug... I've been there as the player who sits it out. Just try to run the combat as smooth as possible to minimize the length of it. You could fudge a rule to allow a second save or simply say the effect ended.
Pathfinder and many other roleplaying games have a hefty portion of "sit n wait" in them. You can either fight it, or use it.
Also, as the game increases in complexity it is awesome if you have a group that is willing to help out with combat management beyond their own characters. That way, everyone is actively involved in the game, even if their character is compromised. And it helps everything move a bit quicker so that the stone statue recently known as Bayard the Halfling can be properly re-assembled and turned back into a foul mouthed little rapscallion.
The problem is that the rounds were taking forever to end (due to having 6 animated skeletons to run + zuvembie + five players for a total of 12 combatants...plus many people either didn't know it was their turn or weren't paying attention and chatting so I was stuck going 'next, next, NEXT!'), and the poor guy was stuck doing nothing.
This is what jumps out from your post as the biggest problem.
(1) You should be taking your turns with the 7 monsters much quicker if you're worried about slow combat. Have all their moves and attacks planned out ahead of time. If they have three attacks, roll three 20 sided dice at one time. Etc. I have a feeling that you could probably shave some minutes off of your turns with these monsters.(2) The BIGGEST problem is the "next, next NEXT!" baloney. Why the heck are you even saying that? It should be "Adam, it's your turn, what do you do?" Write down on your sheet the turn order in ever combat so you are very aware of whose turn it is. Then, also write it on an index card and pass it to the players. That way they know exactly when their turn is coming up. Sometimes the problem is the player honestly doesn't remember when it's his turn, so making the turn order as obvious as possible with a big reminder in writing helps a lot and cuts down a lot of wasted time during combat.
Then, if you want to go a step further, and you might want to consider this, is giving people a time limit to decide what to do. They only have 30 seconds or 60 seconds or whatever to decide on their move and to make it. If they go longer than that, then they have instead chosen to "delay action" and whoever is next goes ahead and the first person can go whenever they are ready. Remind them that combat is extremely fast, chaotic, hectic. They can't sit there and have 5 minute discussions and long thoughts about exactly what to do. You make a decision, go with your gut instinct, and DO IT.
(3) Did the cavalier min/max his character and opt for bad saving throws so he could get better str/con/dex/etc. scores? Then it's his fault. That's what happens when you go to 8 wisdom so you can squeeze another point into your strength.
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paladinguy has some good advice for speeding up combat, which helps minimize the annoyance of having your character incapacitated.
Though -
(3) Did the cavalier min/max his character and opt for bad saving throws so he could get better str/con/dex/etc. scores? Then it's his fault. That's what happens when you go to 8 wisdom so you can squeeze another point into your strength.
I handled this situation poorly, the players aren't min-maxing (one of them is trying, but his build sucks) and I don't want to punish them for that, I'd rather reward them.
You can also avoid this problem by minimizing the use of save-or-sit out effects like paralysis, stun, sleep, or those that impose the frightened or panicked conditions. If you use these less often, characters will fail saves against them less often and spend less time thumb-sitting. There are other debuffs you can use that don't make a character completely unable to act - even save-or-suck leave you some options. I've seen an alchemist who had been temporarily prevented from making bombs and had no useful extracts prepared pull a flask of extra-potent alchemist's fire out of his pack and explode a white dragon's head with it.
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Instead of "Next, next, NEXT!"ing, try "Kevin, you are up, John is on deck. What is your Paladin doing, Kev?"
Some other things that can help involve the players in the game:
Have one of the players running the initiative tracking system. That helps involve him, at least, a bit more, while leaving you better able to concentrate on your hordes of undead.
When you do use spells, make sure you have looked them over, including any status effects they impose. The Samurai need not have run that far away, just until he no longer could see or hear the enemy that imposed the frightened condition on him.
Depending on your group's preparation, he could have actually done some stuff that could have let him rejoin the fight much quicker, like using a potion of Remove Fear.
Look, that's just the way things happen sometimes. You said they don't Min-Max, so the cavalier just had some moderately bad luck.
Missing out on one combat isn;t so bad. Heck, there's a thread around here where one player Dominated another for the whole campaign!
You might suggest Iron will as his next feat. Or indeed, hand out some magic item like a cloak of resistance.
You did fine. Do listen to some if the ideas here for speeding up combat, tho.
paladinguy has some good advice for speeding up combat, which helps minimize the annoyance of having your character incapacitated.
Though -
(3) Did the cavalier min/max his character and opt for bad saving throws so he could get better str/con/dex/etc. scores? Then it's his fault. That's what happens when you go to 8 wisdom so you can squeeze another point into your strength.I handled this situation poorly, the players aren't min-maxing (one of them is trying, but his build sucks) and I don't want to punish them for that, I'd rather reward them.
Yeah, he said one of the players is min-maxing. That could mean it's the cavalier. Hence my statement about min-maxing, just in case :P
(2) The BIGGEST problem is the "next, next NEXT!" baloney. Why the heck are you even saying that? It should be "Adam, it's your turn, what do you do?" Write down on your sheet the turn order in ever combat so you are very aware of whose turn it is. Then, also write it on an index card and pass it to the players. That way they know exactly when their turn is coming up. Sometimes the problem is the player honestly doesn't remember when it's his turn, so making the turn order as obvious as possible with a big reminder in writing helps a lot and cuts down a lot of wasted time during combat.
Instead of "Next, next, NEXT!"ing, try "Kevin, you are up, John is on deck. What is your Paladin doing, Kev?"
I agree. This is one of the primary problem (if not the primary problem) in the situation you've described. Being out for a few rounds isn't a problem if you're getting through the rest of the combat efficiently. And here, you're letting the players drift their attention too much. Directly engage the player who's turn is starting as well as the player who is up next so they can cut the chatter and decide what they want to do.
Consider getting a small whiteboard and markers to write the turn order so everyone can see it.
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When combat starts ion my game, one player collects all the players' initiatives and writes them on index cards; I do the same for monsters. Index cards are sorted and put besides the board.
Everyone can see the turn order, and changes are easy; just move a card around.
I'm also getting stricter about enforcing a no chatter policy; people should be paying attention to each other.
I've found that most DMs don't run SoBS because of how unfun it can make the game for some players. Sure, the PCs can bust out Glitterdust and maybe blind half the enemies, but the GM is still controlling units. When a player is screwed over (whether by blindness which limits options drastically, or hard CC which literally takes control away) they don't have anything left to do, and that's the problem you experienced.
It's one thing to get stunned for 6 seconds in a videogame where time flows normally, and another to get stunned in DnD, in which 6 seconds will pass in 10 minutes if you're lucky. End message: Use hard CC sparingly, especially if it lasts multiple rounds. If you still want to use it often, but you can't without feeling guilt, then you're in a poor way, but as others suggested, give him some mooks to run at least, or maybe add some counterplay element that doesn't normally exist.
Also, I feel I shouldn't get into this, but a min-maxed martial won't dump Wisdom, he'll dump Cha, followed by Int. You maximize strengths and minimize weaknesses.
I generally avoid using controls against my players. If I do use controls, I try to use abilities that inflict lesser penalties like staggered or debuffs instead of hard controls like hold person. Another thing is to never use hard controls until round two or 3. I realize a lot of fights are over by then, especially in larger parties, but I think it's important that everyone gets to do SOMETHING each fight, even if not everyone can be the MVP every battle.
I try to always mention who's going next after the current player, ideally they will then pay more attention and plan their move. I also try not to have more then 4 players, though more often than not we're running parties of 5 or 6 anyway. It's hard to tell friends that they can't play in your game because it's full. I also delay people's initiative if they have to look something up or are in the bathroom or something, rather than waiting.
Generally, I've started changing my encounter design to be less diverse each combat, so instead of two orcs, two goblins, and one ogre I'd just use one ogre and three orcs for example. I also have my enemies delay actions in the second round to clump together, so I can move them all and roll all their attacks at once. Usually avoid doing that in the first round to avoid any alpha strike PC deaths.
On rolling dice, I will have two or 3 sets out at once, then roll attacks and damage at the same time. To avoid cherry picking, I'll decide which color dice go against which player ahead of time. Then I'll read out attacks to each player in rapid succession, and they know to check their AC's. This has shortened each turn by quite a bit in our games.
We're still struggling with long player turns in big combats though. It helped quite a bit when we talked it over after a game session one night, I noticed some good improvement in turn speed after that. It's also much worse at lower levels when we're all new to our characters and might need to look up the details of our class features.
One thing that helps, is to have players remember important details. If a player does a spell that applies a condition to one of the enemies, have them remember that. If they didn't remember on the correct turn and you don't remember either, no take backs. This will help focus attention on the game, and save you the time of checking status markers/notes for each enemy.
Few tips:
With a 'weak' party like yours, lower the CR by not selecting monsters with crowd control effects like Fear, Paralysis, etc.
Take fewer badies, so you don't drown in action economy. Make sure you have less or equal actions to execute than the party, make most of these identical, use a smartphone/ipad dic-roller to roll all of them at once (set it up before the session).
Use player initiative cards that you cycle through
We have a 12 second second rule. If you are not in the proces of stating your action within 12 secs of being called out by the DM, your character is unable to decide what to do and does nothing this round. This is very effective.
Also, make sure that the characters say exactly what the players say, unless they are holding the palm face down under their chin (the universal out of character sign :-)). Punish them from bringing meta knowledge/talk (chat) into the game by having NPCs react, perception/stealth/other skill-rolls fail because of the noise, etc. Reward them for staying in character, preparing their round when it is not their turn by differentiating xp: give kill-xp, good play style and in-game preparation xp, roleplaying xp, and off-game preparation/written roleplay contributions xp. With lower CR, they will need the extra XP for progression.
Im pretty used to running involved combats.
the skeleton mooks are just a bunch of rolls.
4 skeletons, john this one attacks you... roll roll...one hits
andy this one attacks you...roll roll ... both miss
sandy this one does like the color of your jacket...roll roll...one miss one crit...roll...confirmed
mandy this one thinks your perfume is swell and is after you bit hasnt gotten to you yet.
Now damage. john you got hit once....roll.... 5
sandy one crit.... roll.... 9
Next boss monster does something.
resolve all mass monster hits.... then resolve damages.
That's how I speed it up.
as far as the frightened guy... it's STIILL his turn. It's a roleplaying game, he's frightened. If it were my PC or NPC I would still pantomime out my frightened antics as I pee my pants, hide behind the water barrel, or call out to the party "Just applying my oil of keen edge...be there in a moment, HONEST!"
He still gets to laugh, have fun, role play... his turn might be "limited" but dont just hand wave it and say "he's out of the fight"
Just because Martin the Cavalier is frightened, doesn't mean a skeleton isn't chasing him too... he can be busy running away from it, trying to avoid it , hiding under a haystack or what ever.
Thank you guys for your advice and input, here are several ideas I think will be great:
1. I'll set up a board behind me (rectangular table, I sit at the head, so board ought to be visible to all players), have either magnetic markers or post-its on the board for easy relocation, to show initiatives clearly and tell players to remember their spot and the spot of the PC/NPC that acts before them. Minimizing chatter will be difficult, these guys thrive on chatter (and finding other players isn't an option).
I totally understand that chatter is hard to control. At least one game I play in is frequently hampered by it. But at least a visible initiative list and directly calling on the next person and calling out who is on deck may help. You give the chatty players a chance to pull back into the game one turn before theirs arrives and that may help them come to decisions in a more timely fashion.
Here's my advice: if there's a mechanic getting in the way of your group having a good time--watch out for it in the future and swap it out for a mechanic that's more fun for everyone. There's lots of resources for building custom monsters by swapping one ability for another. Use those to sideline abilities that would exile players to rounds of boredom if you see that could happen.
Not every monster is obligated to use it's best powers all the time and creatures with class levels can have a whole array of possible alternative things to do each round.
That said, this kind of thing happens to every DM once in a while. Don't let it become an every game thing and you shouldn't have to sweat it. Players tend to be fairly resiliant.
I'm guessing they aren't well acquainted with the maneuver rules, particularly the overcomplicated grapple. Maybe they just know that if they try to do a maneuver without having the improved feat, they're going to provoke an AoO. Not very appealing.
It's true that some creatures depend on abilities that take control, but oftentimes there's a lot of foreshadowing to it as these creatures are big time villains, like vampires or illithids. The PCs get a fair chance to prepare against such abilities, and again, when PC uses such a spell, he's probably not disabling all the monsters you control.
Imagine if you kept running single monster encounters against a group that has a Witch with Slumber, Misfortune, Evil Eye, and Cackle. I'm guessing very swiftly your fun will disappear and you would change the encounters to have more threats or have high will saves/immunities. The party is a group of adventurers, but each player controls only one character, so they can feel the same way when they get hit by hard CC.
they're not even willing to try any combat maneuvers, they just want to stick to the usual flank and spank
I wouldn't say I'm very new, nor is the group I'm playing with but combat maneuvery are really rare. Up to the point where one of our GMs was really shocked as I sundered the potion one BBEG was trying to drink.
I feel (and I guess my group feels the same) that combat maneuvers are just too clumsy, rarely worth it and too hard to pull for a PC not specialized in it.
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1. I'll set up a board behind me (rectangular table, I sit at the head, so board ought to be visible to all players), have either magnetic markers or post-its on the board for easy relocation, to show initiatives clearly and tell players to remember their spot and the spot of the PC/NPC that acts before them.
In my group we use the GameMastery Combat Pad which is exactly what you describe here (and some more goodness added).
And to make the GM's task easier, following the initiative count and when everybody' turn is is done by one of the players.
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With every new party (same players or old), eventually we have to have The Tactics Talk. In the TTT we (the players) pool information about what our characters can contribute, what we need, and what we can't handle. For example, the archer explains why its important to leave some targets for him to shoot at, why melee PCs could take a 5ft step back after a full attack to not provide cover to enemies, and to block enemies from engaging the archer in melee. The wizard demonstrates the size and shape of his AoE spells, so that the melee characters can engage enemies in such a way that they won't end up as collateral damage. (Melee characters over-eager to set up flanking positions make AoE spells difficult.)
In your case, maybe the party should have a TTT on the subject of when to pull a temporary retreat. If the monster scares away a few PCs and the party can retreat without much trouble, maybe they should - it gives the scared PC time to come to his senses, and the party as a whole will be better for it.
This doesn't really cost them all that much - a quick move back through the door and pull it shut. Yet it can be very worthwhile. But it requires a greater awareness of group tactics as players.
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On the side: my experience running Ravenloft was that while fear effects have their uses, the duration is often on the long side. Running away for five rounds means another five rounds to get back to the fight, that's really long. Consider capping the duration of fear effects to 1-3 rounds, for PCs at least.
There is some dissonance here.
The OP describe the battle as 4 players and one DM having thr best battle of their lives. And then describe that the playerz werent paying attention. If they werent paying attention, then the battle wasnt that much fun, at least not for them. .aybe for the DM.
Pathfinder have a lot of save or suck spells. A lot. This happen everyday. Fear, confusion, hold person, feeblemind (oh my god, how I hate being feebleminded), etc. It is just part of the game. If you dislike it, you may forbid those effects, or give all of them a save per round, like hold person has. This may .ake some players unhappy though (those with SoS spell
@petty alchemy and umbranus, the reasons you mentioned are extremely valid (maneuvers provoke AoO or grapple can be complicated, or that they might be a bit 'off/clumsy'), but their stated reason is: Why waste an attack doing that when I can do damage?
It's part of that for me, too.
Some maneuvers might be worth it when you manage to get them through. But you have to specialize for them to have a decent chance. Trip for example. Tripping is strong. But if you want to trip larger opponents with multiple legs, good luck without a specialized trip build.Then there are maneuvers like dirty trick. With that you can give the opponent -2 to something for one turn. Even if you know you'll succeed that's not worth it most of the time. More so as the witch with evil eye can do the same and autosucceed for one turn with the possibility for it to last longer (especially with cackle).
So some maneuvers truly are not worth it to even try in my book.
On the other hand trying to sunder a potion a squshy opponent is trying to drink can be really strong. It only costs an AoO (doesn't disrupt yout full attack) and can have a great benefit if successful.
@petty alchemy and umbranus, the reasons you mentioned are extremely valid (maneuvers provoke AoO or grapple can be complicated, or that they might be a bit 'off/clumsy'), but their stated reason is: Why waste an attack doing that when I can do damage?
It's part of that for me, too.
Some maneuvers might be worth it when you manage to get them through. But you have to specialize for them to have a decent chance. Trip for example. Tripping is strong. But if you want to trip larger opponents with multiple legs, good luck without a specialized trip build.Then there are maneuvers like dirty trick. With that you can give the opponent -2 to something for one turn. Even if you know you'll succeed that's not worth it most of the time. More so as the witch with evil eye can do the same and autosucceed for one turn with the possibility for it to last longer (especially with cackle).
So some maneuvers truly are not worth it to even try in my book.On the other hand trying to sunder a potion a squshy opponent is trying to drink can be really strong. It only costs an AoO (doesn't disrupt yout full attack) and can have a great benefit if successful.
You can build a character that has a great chance to succesfully trip, disarm or blind a character in one turn. But with the same amount of system mastery, you can build a char that can kill the opponent in the same turn.
"Dead" is the stronger condition there is. The only way to make maneuvers really worthwhile, is to reduce damage output so much that the combat can't be finished in a full round.
Trip and disarm can be situationally useful. You mention a possible example: some guy in a very heavy full plate with high AC and low CMD (because if the guy is something like a Dragon, with huge AC, high str, high CMD and 4 legs, you are not going to trip him.
However, the problem is that, as is, you *need* to take Improved Trip beforehand, "just in case" you face a guy with huge AC that you can't kill in one full round. Because otherwise, you don't get a real chance, as the AOO goes before yours, and he can trip or disarm you instead. So you are making your character weaker vs 90% of the encountes (Because you took improved trip instead of power attack, weapon focus, or some other more generic feat) to have a small adventage in the other 10%.
And if you invest heavily in maneuvers, you'll find that they won't work vs a lot of monsters. You can't trip a Wraith or disarm an Umber Hulk. But you can powerattack both to death.
The problem with the maneuvers is the cost of oportunity. To do them, you have to *give up* your attack. Vs weak oponents, the regular mooks (orcs, ghouls, etc) that's simply not worth it. You could had killed them, and Dead is the best condition. Vs the very tough oponents, that you can't kill in one full round, chances are that you can't trip or disarm them either unless you drain a LOT of resources into it. And if you do, then you'll find yourself resourceless vs the criatures that are inmune to the maneuvers, like incorporeals, or flying, serpentine, etc.
In my games, I let the players to do maneuvers without AOO. The AOO is there only if you fail. And they use them... somewhat... at lower levels. It's cool to push someone through a cliff, or trip the armored knight or grab the venom snake and put it in a bag. But once they level up (they are 10th right now), it's not worth it anymore. The magus can do 200+ damage in a full round. Why on hell would he trip the dragon, when he can KILL the dragon?
In all fairness though, if the major complaint from the PCs is that the AC is too high (at 17 and above) then tripping the opponent can be necessary.
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It's all about choosing your moment, and if your attack roll sucks (the fighter who THINKS he's the top damage dealer (he spread his stats badly AND he's the guy who dumped wisdom) is dual-wielding with 16str and 16dex at level 2...he has a +4 attack roll when full attacking), hitting your opponent with weak strikes will deal more damage than failing to hit and having high damage. He fought two wolves who tripped him and ruined his full attack rolls (which he did from prone so that he would get both attacks while dual-wielding).
That's what I mean- To be able to do maneuvers consistently, you need some amount of feats and system mastery. If you have it, it's easy to buid a character who can kill instead of trip.
At level 2, he could have a 2h weapon, and DEX 12 with STR 18, and he'll have +8 to hit (4 str, 2 level, 1 weapon focus, 1 masterwork), which means +12 if he charges, +14 if he charges to a flanking position (trained dogs are cheap, by the way), doing 2d6+6, which will kill almost anything at that level. That AC 17 guy you mention is hit with 3+ and dies instantly. Why trip him?
Well it's pretty clear why the fighter isn't going for combat maneuvers, his goal is to be a DPS machine (and if he didn't build it right, imagine his difficulty with maneuvers)
High AC and High CMD are usually correlated as well, heavily armored might not get their armor bonuses but they usually have high BABs.
The issue with disarm is that lots of monsters fight with natural weapons. I'd love to play a disarm master in some game, but it would have to be an urban adventure.
Minor Edition Equality rant:
Also, you portray 4e as if it somehow damaged their cognitive ability, that "they can't handle more than elementary rules". That's blatantly false. If they could handle 3.5 before, they can certainly handle Pathfinder. They simply found that they prefer 4e's take on a lot of things I guess, which is fine.
Thinking outside the box or not is a playstyle set by the group, not the edition. In Pathfinder spellcasters have extremely versatile toolkits, while martials have notably less options, mostly consisting of full attacks with occasional maneuvers (that are usually very difficult to pull off as monsters get bigger and bigger). Meanwhile 4e has very few vanilla damage-dealing abilities. Usually these abilities do something extra like allow you to reposition a foe, or turn you invisible for a round.
Meanwhile 4e has very few vanilla damage-dealing abilities. Usually these abilities do something extra like allow you to reposition a foe, or turn you invisible for a round.
That's why in 4e, riders (such as prone) are so important and everybody load on them. Nobody takes the 4[w] dailies, when you can get a 3[w] daily that can trip or stun or whatever. The oportunity cost is tiny (1[w] damage, which means nothing compared to your whole bonus)
The problem with Pathfinder maneuvers, is that the oportunity cost is way too big. You get an AOO, unless you pay a feat (which can be used somewhere else). You don't do damage at all. And a LOT of creatures are inmune. For example, in PF, a flying creature is inmune to trip. In 4e, a flying creature that gets prone, crash to the ground. That's a HUGE difference, specially beyond 10th level, where every other monster and his dog can fly. It causes other kind of problems, such as inmersion (and jokes about tripping a Gelatinous Cube), but it makes maneuvers way more solid, that's for sure.
If the OP wants his PC to be triping, disarming, pushing and repositioning instead of going for full damage, maybe he should try 4e. It's much easier to do those things there. In PF, martials do damage. Loads and loads of damage.
1: 4e crits are notably less swingy than 3.x crits, due to the fact that they maximize your weapon damage (which matters more since some powers are X[W], but it's not multiplying everything including your static boosts). I prefer 4e's crit consistency though I know some people want crits to be more splashy.
2: It would probably actually hamper the PCs more if this was a universal rule. I generally don't see games in which AoOs happen that often anyway. And everything in Pathfinder has Threatening Reach.
3: The weapon golf bag can be a pretty lame system. You've got your ancestral family sword or the sweetest new axe you looted, and then all of a sudden you have to take out your backup morningstar because it's skellies.
4: It's well accepted that the bow is king in 3.x, given how nothing else allows you to full attack without spending an extra feat to Quick Draw or Rapid Reload (or Rapid Reload + Crossbow Mastery). Crossbows can't add a stat to damage , unlike Composite Bows. Thrown weapons do use Str, but past low levels, when you need magic weapons, it becomes prohibitively expensive to use. Plus the range issues hamper them as well.
4a: Main stat to damage is something I enjoy about 4e, but I agree that this aspect can't be brought directly into 3.x without a major system revamp.
5: That stuff is annoying, and usually dealt with by experienced players with a Wand/Scrolls of Lesser Restoration (if possible, cheesed to be the Paladin's version of the spell). So for a group with system mastery, ability damage doesn't last longer than a fight anyway.
Conclusion: From your description, I think I may understand what your players want. They want to be heroes that conquer their foes in noble combat. They have an image they want to play and be effective with (the TWF Fighter rather than a 2hander). They want to make a sweet dagger throw as the opponent flees, stopping it dead in its tracks.
They don't like it when their turns feel wasted because of miss chance, hard cc, or barely scratch through the DR. They either don't understand the counterplay, there is no counterplay, or the counterplay means not playing their character the way they want to.
Of course, it also sounds like that fighter might just not understand math or basic rules, such as Vorpal only proc'ing on nat 20s and being way too expensive. You might be able to help him achieve his character concept while remaining a damage dealer by dropping the TWF dex requirement to 13 for all of the feats. I've also seen some DMs make TWF into one feat that automatically scales when you would get the next feat in the chain available.
Another possibility: Use higher HP for monsters rather than especially high ACs/miss chances. They'll feel like badasses since they get to do their damage, and they'll feel like badasses for taking down such a tough as nails foe. Use the rule of cool sometimes (I had a system similar to hero points for this in a game I ran).
Best answer: Talk with the players. Find out what they want and try to compromise to make those visions reality. It sounds like they might not even want Pathfinder in the first place, they're just playing it because it's the system you chose to run. For a group that's not powergaming, I'd suggest either homebrewing stuff to boost them up, or letting them be as they are and holding back on some of the scarier things you can do with the system.
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@Ascalaphus, I've tried to talk with them, all I get is a 'we get it, we get it, let's start the session', and when everything goes to hell, they tell me that 'if someone rolls a 14 and still misses, then there's something wrong'. If I explain that there are methods to deal with this, they claim they either don't want to min-max or risk an AoO.
We tend to play with the assumption that the fight the GM set up is reasonable. (Usually it is.) However, how well we do depends on us. If we don't work together, we can still try to plow through, hoping we'll make it. That's the hard way.
If we work together, things go much better. This is a player-driven process: the players talking about who can help who, and who needs to stay out of the way for what. When we figure out how the PCs work together as a group, combat is much less risky (against the same DCs).
For example, if the fighters know to wait for a moment to flank the BBEG, the wizard can put Glitterdust on him, Blinding the BBEG. After that the fighters have a much easier time doing it. But if the fighters had closed in before the wizard, they'd be in the AoE too.
That's what I mean with group tactics: it's something the players do, PARTICULARLY when combats have been painful lately.
So as a GM you shouldn't cave too soon. Present a fair difficulty, then tell them to man up and figure it out; together they can do it, if they just focus on themselves it's gonna be bloody.
My current group does not cooperate very well with organization.
However, my previous group did. So things went a little smoother and faster.
Here are a few ideas from what that group used to do. Some of which have been suggested or hinted at by others.
- As a GM, I limit the NPC use of SoS spells (especially if the DC's are fairly high). I mostly use damage or debuff type spells. They are still being affected and can get worried about what is going to happen next. But rarely out of action.
- I will use SoS for the BBEG (but still not many SoD spells).
- Even then I will try to find a way to handle it other than you are out of the fight for 12 rounds. I would probably have said the fear ended after 2 rounds, but then he has to fight through a couple more mook skeletons (that followed him) to get back to the fight. Another example I used: you fall asleep. You wake up sputtering in the shallow pool of water, but a tiny water elemental is dragging your bow to the other end of the pool.
- If someone is out of the fight for any length of time for whatever reason, let HIM keep track of initiative. The when Billy-Bob is telling you what his PC is doing, he can be warning Jimmy-John, "your turn is next, what will you be doing?"
- For big fights, I sometimes have a lot of the rolls done an basic plans made already. Ok, kobolds will only be shooting their poisoned xbows. So I will have their attacks and damages for 10 rounds rolled up the night before. So when it is the kobold turn I just have to ask, "does a 17 hit your cleric? Ok you take 3 damage and roll a for save due to the black goo on the bolt." Then I draw a line through that roll and the next round they use the next one on the list.
The sorc will just keep summoning vipers every round until in melee, then he runs (and yes I have rolls already done for a whole bunch of vipers).
Etc...
Obviously sometimes the PC plans will stomp on my NPC plans, but it goes a bit faster up until that happens.