Thanks for pointing it out. I will have a look at it tomorrow.Does that mean bracers of falcon's aim will get the ban hammer for being three feats for 4k gp.... The must have item for every archer...
If a snowball is overpowered...
Please don't. I've been using them for some time on my grenadier/archer and I like them because they have some actual flavor, instead of just being "bracers of shooting good." They're also the only real way--imo--to have a chance of being effective as an archer without class features that let you ignore feat prerequisites.
Edit: not that I'm actually all that effective as an archer compared to a ranger or such. But still. :p
They're also far better than the core option (bracers of archery), which is a core option that costs more.
Any chance we will ever learn why Magical Knack was originally banned? :)You'd have to ask the Campaign Coordinator who originally banned it.
Presumably the reason was passed down...
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Magical Knack: I'm ambivalent. It helps blaster casters who dip. It's GREAT for paladins and rangers but mainly only affects durations. Verdict: more blasters, but they tend to be less effective anyway.
Snowball: Yeah, this one was prone to some abuse. See above.
Bracers of Falcon's Aim: It's one feat (Improved Critical) that is the big thing they replace. I've long thought that they were extremely underpriced and I'm good with them being removed (or better yet erratad to cost more). But if they are removed I think some kind of feat retraining would be good. Locally there are a LOT of level 11+ archers who never bothered to take IC because of the bracers. Their leveling plans worked in the bracers.
edit:(This includes one Impact Critical archer and one fighter with Critical Focus/Sickening Critical that I know of).
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Presumably the reason was passed down...
Yes I hear there is a "Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator's Book of Secrets" (replace every mention of President with PFS Campaign Coordinator), where all the secrets of the Pathfinder Society Organization has been passed down from one coordinator to the next.
The problem I hear about it is that the first words written into it were by Nicolas Logue so every Coordinator that has read it since have gone insane, which is quite evident in Mike... ;)
Magical Knack: I'm ambivalent. It helps blaster casters who dip. It's GREAT for paladins and rangers but mainly only affects durations. Verdict: more blasters, but they tend to be less effective anyway.
It helps any multiclassed caster, not just blasters.
Snowball: Yeah, this one was prone to some abuse. See above.
The very best level 1 blast in the game may indeed be abused, particularly by conjurers. Druids, summoners and witches also now have a better blast spell than magic missile. It's so perfectly balanced...
Bracers of Falcon's Aim: It's one feat (Improved Critical) that is the big thing they replace. I've long thought that they were extremely underpriced and I'm good with them being removed (or better yet erratad to cost more). But if they are removed I think some kind of feat retraining would be good. Locally there are a LOT of level 11+ archers who never bothered to take IC because of the bracers. Their leveling plans worked in the bracers.
edit:(This includes one Impact Critical archer and one fighter with Critical Focus/Sickening Critical that I know of).
Somebody needs to look at the price, again.
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Bracers of Falcon's Aim: It's one feat (Improved Critical) that is the big thing they replace. I've long thought that they were extremely underpriced and I'm good with them being removed (or better yet erratad to cost more). But if they are removed I think some kind of feat retraining would be good. Locally there are a LOT of level 11+ archers who never bothered to take IC because of the bracers. Their leveling plans worked in the bracers.
edit:(This includes one Impact Critical archer and one fighter with Critical Focus/Sickening Critical that I know of).
I disagree.The bracers were only just released with UE. If we have lvl 12 rangers that started at lvl 1 after the bracer's came out I do not know who you are referring to locally. Our high-level archers all were long into double digit levels when UE came out.
I for one am extremely in favor of removal of the bracers at least until a re-costing happens. I say that even with having an archer who currently uses them. They are just simply a must buy, no exceptions for any archer. Like others pointed above, they make bracers of archery obsolete (99% of the time, my bard has bracers of archery instead to get longbow prof.). All for 4,000gp. Seriously undercosted.
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Falcon's aim: Free feat, plus +1 attack, plus +3 perception. 4,000gp
Ioun stones that grant feats (Endurance, Weapon Proficiency): 10,000gp
Even if you halve the price (common when making a slotless item into a slotted one) it is still 5,000gp.
So not only are you getting a feat for cheap, but IC has WAY steeper prereqs (+8 BAB), and you get two other (great) bonuses on top.
Bracers of archery at 5,000 actually make it match the formula above. One feat (Weapon poficiency (bow)) and a minor bonus of +1 atk.
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Just want to drop a quick note to thank Campaign Leadership, and Mike in particular, for handling this so well. I didn't really have a dog in this fight, but this was an excellent display of being thoughtful and evenhanded when responding to community concerns.
Jiggy's post should also serve as an example to the community of how to best present your case when you'd like to see a change made.
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Oh, wow, that's great about Magical Knack. It was really the only ban where "we do have a reason, trust us" didn't hold any water coming from the campaign leadership so I am glad that that got reexamined finally.
I am a little bit disturbed with the rabbit hole that we seem to be going down here with snowball and now bracers of falcon's aim. Piling on things that seem to be unbalanced is not going to end well at all, and just give continual uncertainty about the Additional Resources. For the record I agree that it is ok to ban snowball, although it is sad to give up one of the few viable damage options for a witch. I disagree that the bracers need to be banned for the reasons that Tetsuijin Oni gives above.
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Does that mean bracers of falcon's aim will get the ban hammer for being three feats for 4k gp.... The must have item for every archer...
If a snowball is overpowered...
Oh come on...
After having to deal with shooting into melee, cover and DR to each arrow, you still want to take the Bracers of Falcon's Aim from archers?We already have to spread points into both Str and Dex to hit and still deal reasonable amount of damage at any level.
If the Bracers of Falcon's Aim is OP, then what about Zen Archers?
Zen Archers are way more powerful then any other archer build, especially fighter-archers. Should they get the ban-hammer too?
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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You know, attacking is overpowered. As an action, it's really the only one that makes sense in many combat situations. There are entire builds built around exploiting it, and interesting combat choices like total defense and feint are often ignored as a result. Perhaps attacking should be banned too.
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I disagree.The bracers were only just released with UE. If we have lvl 12 rangers that started at lvl 1 after the bracer's came out I do not know who you are referring to locally. Our high-level archers all were long into double digit levels when UE came out.
Not necessarily talking about level 1-12; mainly level 7+ characters who replaced Improved Critical in their planning once UE came out.
Off the top of my head:The Impact Critical was a level 11 ranger at a table I was playing in November (I can't remember who the player was.)
The critical focused fighter was at a con so I grant you that might be stretching the definition of "local" a bit.
The point is that there ARE people who would be affected by a removal of the bracers. The percentage of players is not large. I feel they should be repriced but I wanted to point out that if the decision is made to ban (with no retraining) instead there will be some high level characters who become crippled. Not unplayable but in many cases far less than the players expected. And that will be unfun for the players.
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Not necessarily talking about level 1-12; mainly level 7+ characters who replaced Improved Critical in their planning once UE came out.
Off the top of my head:
** spoiler omitted **
The point is that there ARE people who would be affected by a removal of the bracers. The percentage of players is not large. I feel they should be repriced but I wanted to point out that if the decision is made to ban (with no retraining) instead there will be some high level characters who become crippled. Not unplayable but in many cases far less than the players expected. And that will be unfun for the players.
Since I'm in your area, also:
Another level 9 archer ranger.
As well, my father's level 5 ranger was planning his build with it.
Actually, that's all the archers I can think of, so I can't think of a single "main archer" of level to afford them that doesn't have the gloves.
It would affect a large number of people, so be careful, but then again I've always been of the opinion that they could be balanced only if they costed more than they do. When someone first introduced them to me, my archer bard was level 8, and I was like "why would I ever not get this?"
Edit: Also, the item could affect those who use crossbows. It's a way for crossbow users to get 19-20/x3, and then they can improve critical that. (I've heard the conversations for and against this, but it still could affect those who were for it OR against it)
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Since I'm in your area, also:
** spoiler omitted **
Right, but my real question is would your archer bard have taken Improved Critical at any point in time otherwise? I doubt it was in your planned feat list, and you just got it as a bonus. Because how cheap and awesome it was. That's what I'm saying. Very FEW archers took Imp Critical bow before, because going from 20 to 19-20 is usually not that great of an investment for a feat.
Your bard would have had to be level 11 to take it, and you can afford the bracers at like level 5-6.
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On a closely related topic, Mike if you do decide to allow the bracers of the faclon's aim at increased cost, could you also review and possibly lower the cost of the now grossly overpriced ring of continuation after the radical alterations it took? Leaving it at it's current price and allowing it to function with spells lasting 1 min/level would also be fair.
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On a closely related topic, Mike if you do decide to allow the bracers of the faclon's aim at increased cost, could you also review and possibly lower the cost of the now grossly overpriced ring of continuation after the radical alterations it took? Leaving it at it's current price and allowing it to function with spells lasting 1 min/level would also be fair.
Sadly, I don't think that recosting items is something the campaign leadership wants to get into. We would have discussion ad-infinitum if they decide to arbitrarily start changing the pricing on items. For example, the staves in APG were grossly undercosted for the longest time, but we did not get a fix to the prices until they were reprinted in UE with the correct costs. My guessing is the same will apply here.
If the bracers of falcon's aim are deemed to be a problem, the most likely scenario is they are banned, and should Paizo (not PFS) decide to issue an errata and re-cost them then PFS will review their ban and lift it.
In the same manner, unless Paizo errata's the cost of the ring of continuation, I don't see that changing for PFS only.
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Sadly, I don't think that recosting items is something the campaign leadership wants to get into. We would have discussion ad-infinitum if they decide to arbitrarily start changing the pricing on items. For example, the staves in APG were grossly undercosted for the longest time, but we did not get a fix to the prices until they were reprinted in UE with the correct costs. My guessing is the same will apply here.
If the bracers of falcon's aim are deemed to be a problem, the most likely scenario is they are banned, and should Paizo (not PFS) decide to issue an errata and re-cost them then PFS will review their ban and lift it.
In the same manner, unless Paizo errata's the cost of the ring of continuation, I don't see that changing for PFS only.
Indeed, I can't argue with your logic here. Flat banning will mostly likely be the case if they are deemed problematic, but raising awareness of other eyebrow raising items can't hurt matters.
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Not necessarily talking about level 1-12; mainly level 7+ characters who replaced Improved Critical in their planning once UE came out.
Off the top of my head:
** spoiler omitted **
The point is that there ARE people who would be affected by a removal of the bracers. The percentage of players is not large. I feel they should be repriced but I wanted to point out that if the decision is made to ban (with no retraining) instead there will be some high level characters who become crippled. Not unplayable but in many cases far less than the players expected. And that will be unfun for the players.Since I'm in your area, also:
** spoiler omitted **It would affect a large number of people, so be careful, but then again I've always been of the opinion that they could be balanced only if they costed more than they do. When someone first introduced them to me, my archer bard was level 8, and I was like "why would I ever not get this?"
Edit: Also, the item could affect those who use crossbows. It's a way for crossbow users to get 19-20/x3, and then they can improve critical that. (I've heard the conversations for and against this, but it still could affect those who were for it OR against it)
That "why would I ever not get this" is exactly the problem that Drogon discussed on the last page. In my home group alone, we have two zen archers with it (including my own), a bard archer with it, an bird-focused archery ranger with it for whom it really fits flavorwise, and an archer inquisitor who bought lesser bracers of archery and was suggested at and suggested at by other players until he sold them and bought bracers of falcon's aim on his last chronicle (if they do get banned soon, since I was his last GM, I think I'll let the poor guy just not sell his original bracers since he hasn't played with the new ones yet).
(And that bard I mentioned is a Detective, so they're not getting a competence bonus elsewhere--I think mainly only bards and that ioun stone that's more expensive than bracers of falcon's aim give competence bonuses to attack (barring one-offs like guidance), but I'm probably missing something else that's common, since a few people who know their stuff are saying it's common to get a competence bonus)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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To paraphrase James May... "Well, car."*
Snowball was taken by my winter witch because, well, it's snow, and she's a witch. It was nice having a ranged cold spell (especially since I lose burning hands and had to burn a trait to get prestidigitation). I'd guess that there's no Grandmother** clause. *sigh*
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(And that bard I mentioned is a Detective, so they're not getting a competence bonus elsewhere--I think mainly only bards and that ioun stone that's more expensive than bracers of falcon's aim give competence bonuses to attack (barring one-offs like guidance), but I'm probably missing something else that's common, since a few people who know their stuff are saying it's common to get a competence bonus)
The cracked version of the pale green prism ioun stone is legal for play - 4,000 gp for a +1 competence bonus to all attack rolls. Pretty reasonable over all.
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(And that bard I mentioned is a Detective, so they're not getting a competence bonus elsewhere--I think mainly only bards and that ioun stone that's more expensive than bracers of falcon's aim give competence bonuses to attack (barring one-offs like guidance), but I'm probably missing something else that's common, since a few people who know their stuff are saying it's common to get a competence bonus)The cracked version of the pale green prism ioun stone is legal for play - 4,000 gp for a +1 competence bonus to all attack rolls. Pretty reasonable over all.
That's not reasonable! It needs more! Like an expanded crit range and maybe a bonus to a great skill or two!
However, to balance it, we will only allow it to work if you pick the best combat style.
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+1 competence to attack slotless makes bracers of falcon's aim not undercosted...
One of the other big issues is that it still grants the continuous keen. Compare just the crit benefit to scabbard of keen edges, for instance. Both are limited in what kinds of weapons they can affect (the scabbard only works on light blades and heavy blades). The scabbard can affect weapons with a superior crit range to bows, but the bracers can affect ranged weapons (which are a generally a more powerful fighting style). The scabbard takes a standard action to activate 3 times per day for 50 minutes each time, and the bracers are always up (this is less of an advantage for the bracers in most PFS scenarios where the encounters are packed together compared to a home game, but I do know a fair number of them with ambushes and an hour or more between encounters). The scabbard is slotless, while the bracers are not. The scabbard costs 16,000 gold and the bracers cost 4,000 gold. Even if the bracers only granted the keen effect, it seems they would be underpriced compared to the scabbard.
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Yeah +1 to hit that should typically stack should be around 3000gp
+3 to a skill, should be around 1500gp
A constant keen effect that stacks with weapon effects should be at least 10000gp, probably around 16000gp. I know I would seriously think about it for some characters at 16000gp.
Put them all on the same item, and you are probably looking at something between 20,000gp and 36,000gp.
In short, these bracers are serious underpriced.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The Jan 30 version is still up. The new version will be out later today.
Does that mean it's too late to plea for a flavourful winter witch spell, rather than *sigh* relying on the ear piecing scream so common?
(Irony is I plan to take SF: Evocation to go with my SF: Enchantment, so EPS would benefit where snowball wouldn't and EPS is a better 'all around' spell since Ksenia's reliance on cold and enchantment is a weakness with undead.)
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The Jan 30 version is still up. The new version will be out later today.Does that mean it's too late to plea for a flavourful winter witch spell, rather than *sigh* relying on the ear piecing scream so common?
(Irony is I plan to take SF: Conjuration to go with my SF: Enchantment, so EPS would benefit where snowball wouldn't and EPS is a better 'all around' spell since Ksenia's reliance on cold and enchantment is a weakness with undead.)
EPS gets the damage more slowly (1d6 per 2 levels instead of every level) which is crucial when considering the effect that the intensified version will have on the game, and the Fort save halves that damage again. It also allows SR, which is a pretty big deal (trust me, in playing Shattered Star, I've failed to penetrate SR or been up against a magic-immune enemy, which snowball works on, far more often than I've missed a ranged touch). EPS is an Evocation and snowball is Conjuration, so did you mean Spell Focus (Evocation)?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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EPS gets the damage more slowly (1d6 per 2 levels instead of every level) which is crucial when considering the effect that the intensified version will have on the game, and the Fort save halves that damage again. It also allows SR, which is a pretty big deal (trust me, in playing Shattered Star, I've failed to penetrate SR or been up against a magic-immune enemy, which snowball works on, far more often than I've missed a ranged touch). EPS is an Evocation and snowball is Conjuration, so did you mean Spell Focus (Evocation)?
Thanks, corrected.
And I understand about the scaling (but I always forget intensify, haven't played prepared casters in a long time) Ksenia would get the free +1 to the DC of snowball but not from SF: evocation and GSF if I take it. Sonic is harder to 'soak' than cold though. Again, for me it's funny that as a result I get a hole in her offensive suite repaired.
I'm just sad to see it go for flavour, not for potential abuse. It's not like I can research freezing hands to replace burning hands in PFS.
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EPS gets the damage more slowly (1d6 per 2 levels instead of every level) which is crucial when considering the effect that the intensified version will have on the game, and the Fort save halves that damage again. It also allows SR, which is a pretty big deal (trust me, in playing Shattered Star, I've failed to penetrate SR or been up against a magic-immune enemy, which snowball works on, far more often than I've missed a ranged touch). EPS is an Evocation and snowball is Conjuration, so did you mean Spell Focus (Evocation)?Thanks, corrected.
And I understand about the scaling (but I always forget intensify, haven't played prepared casters in a long time) Ksenia would get the free +1 to the DC of snowball but not from SF: evocation and GSF if I take it. Sonic is harder to 'soak' than cold though. Again, for me it's funny that as a result I get a hole in her offensive suite repaired.
I'm just sad to see it go for flavour, not for potential abuse. It's not like I can research freezing hands to replace burning hands in PFS.
Yeah, I wish they had put in a weaker version of snowball into the original book instead, but over here in PFS, the only option around is allow or disallow something. If the design team ever reprints an altered version that's more in line with a 1st level spell (or is even listed at 2nd level), I'm sure Mike and Mark and John will take another look.
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Hey Mike, heads up: People have been saying it's from People of the North, but Snowball is also printed in Reign of Winter 1.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Silly thought (just for fun, since I'm sure the decision about Snowball is final) - what about leaving it in, but changing it to a Witch only spell? :P
*hides!*
I know you were kidding, but I'd be happy if it *just* was a winter witch spell, since it is the 'hey, a cold based first level spell' I can use!' that drew me to it and the witch.
Aside: Come third level, I was looking at the spectral hand/touch of faitgue/frozen caress hex for ranged status effects. Oh well, enchantment/necromancy focus works too.
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I have removed Magical Knack as a banned trait in the campaign. Additional Resources will be updated tomorrow, and it will be a legal option to take. And no, you may not retrain your character unless you fall under the retraining rules or get a boon at Gen Con.
Great news! A question though. To my knowledge, Magical Knack was originally allowed in Pathfinder Society. Are characters who hadit before the ban allowed to retrain it back?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I have removed Magical Knack as a banned trait in the campaign. Additional Resources will be updated tomorrow, and it will be a legal option to take. And no, you may not retrain your character unless you fall under the retraining rules or get a boon at Gen Con.Great news! A question though. To my knowledge, Magical Knack was originally allowed in Pathfinder Society. Are characters who hadit before the ban allowed to retrain it back?
I'd guess no based on the bold.
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I'd guess no based on the bold.I have removed Magical Knack as a banned trait in the campaign. Additional Resources will be updated tomorrow, and it will be a legal option to take. And no, you may not retrain your character unless you fall under the retraining rules or get a boon at Gen Con.Great news! A question though. To my knowledge, Magical Knack was originally allowed in Pathfinder Society. Are characters who hadit before the ban allowed to retrain it back?
I'm hoping Mike just didn't think of the case I presented. I would personally allow retraining it back. Meaning that you need to swap out the trait you took instead of Magical Knack when it was originally banned. I can't see how this could be abused.