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So I am looking for some clarification. It seems to me from reading blog posts that playing an evil character will essentially land you some pretty harsh penalties. I'm not entirely opposed to this as lets face it, general society is less than forgiving to evilly aligned people.
However, will I have safe havens? Obviously I don't care how low my reputation or alignment sink if I am truly evil, but can I still function in the game? Will evil settlements be aloud to prosper? Will I have access to the highest level trainers with a consistently low rating?
I ask because all my character revolve around undeath or abyssal/infernal pacts. Necromancers, Twisted Alchemists and anit-pallies are what I live to play. Why you may ask...I don't know. I just like summoning zombies, bargaining with devils and experimenting on others much to my Evangelical mothers chagrin. Will I RPK? Absolutely because that's what my characters would do from time to time. Will I insistently grief? doubtful short of me having some long standing feud with some holier than thou paladin.
Being that my character will also definitely summon undead I'll pretty much have the heinous flag 24/7. Will this be viable? Honestly if all it means is I'm screwed if I solo then I am fine with that. Traveling to dangerous parts of the world alone if you're not a 20th level wizard is just asking to be killed whether by do gooders ending your spree or bandits out for your loot.
It seems to me that really the flag system isn't a disadvantage to me. I don't care how much my character is "hated" outside of my evil settlement as long as my settlement and I can function normally. People being allowed to attack me at random with no reputation loss is fine with me. As a malicious half-orc I expect to be hunted. I just want to know if the game and my character progression are going to suck because I'm sitting at -7500 reputation. (Note I usually go LE so I won't be causing disruptions in peoples cities/settlements. I may attempt to collect your soul if I catch you in the wilderness alone however.)
Sorry for the wall of text, any insight is appreciated.
Goblin Squad Member
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Evil does not automatically equal low reputation. It will be quite possible to flag yourself as an enforcer or assassin an use your undead hordes for the betterment of society by eliminating problems or hunting down criminals (like those crusading paladins disobeying your laws) and getting a hefty reputation bonus even while under a heinous flag.
That said, there may not be undead summons in the game at all. They will require the pet system to be in place, and crowd-forging opinion is that the pet system isn't as high priority as mounts and fast travel. Even when the pet system is in place, there may not be an animate dead spell to use. At start, my guess is that undead will be a type of NPC that can be used in Evil settlements to do the "grunt work" of building, harvesting, and crafting for bonuses and penalties vs using normal NPC.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems to be that, yes, your actions will get you slapped with a Heinous Flag pretty much constantly. But fear not, for there will be forward thinking settlements out there where you can use such Diabolic magic without being ganked 24/7, as the laws of said places will protect you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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However, will I have safe havens? Obviously I don't care how low my reputation or alignment sink if I am truly evil, but can I still function in the game? Will evil settlements be aloud to prosper? Will I have access to the highest level trainers with a consistently low rating?
The answer to all your questions is yes. The Heinous flag will only apply for a few moments, per posts by Devs, so no worries there. Evil settlements will accept you, and LE settlements will be just as versatile as LG ones (chaotic settlements, due to the nature of Chaos will be the worst settlements in terms of trainers and the like, while any flavor of Neutral will be somewhere in the middle - my guess is LN will be the best in that group whereas CN will be the worst).
As for RPK, remember that you will likely have to deal with repercussions such as bounties and Champions seeking you out. I plan to have at least one evil PC, and I don't think that one needs to RPK in order to RP evil, but that is just me. As long as you are OK with being hunted, go for it, within reason ;-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not only will their be "safe havens" you will be able to create these havens with like-minded characters.That was the impression I got. Just curious if Evil settlements will be in any way inferior to good aligned ones.
It has been said by the devs that there will be slight penalties for being Evil, being Chaotic, and being low-rep. The penalties will only be really crippling to a settlement when all three are stacking. If you are in a high-reputation Lawful Evil society, you should have access to almost all training facilities, except those restricted to Good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The answer to all your questions is yes. The Heinous flag will only apply for a few moments, per posts by Devs, so no worries there.However, will I have safe havens? Obviously I don't care how low my reputation or alignment sink if I am truly evil, but can I still function in the game? Will evil settlements be aloud to prosper? Will I have access to the highest level trainers with a consistently low rating?
This is not actually true. The Heinous flag will last for the duration of whatever is getting you the flag (ex. the duration you are controlling undead) plus a few minutes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is not actually true. The Heinous flag will last for the duration of whatever is getting you the flag (ex. the duration you are controlling undead) plus a few minutes.The answer to all your questions is yes. The Heinous flag will only apply for a few moments, per posts by Devs, so no worries there.However, will I have safe havens? Obviously I don't care how low my reputation or alignment sink if I am truly evil, but can I still function in the game? Will evil settlements be aloud to prosper? Will I have access to the highest level trainers with a consistently low rating?
Was this updated? The post I saw stated it would last for the duration it took to raise the undead and perhaps a moment or two more, so that a Paladin (as used in that example) pretty much had to catch the person in the act. If this was changed, then forgive my misinformation.
I see no reason to believe the devs would make one playstyle statistically or mechanically at a (dis)advantage to all others. That's just poor game design. That's like releasing a game called "Rock, Paper, Atom bomb".
If something doesn't quite translate over from P&P PF, I wouldn't expect to see it implemented without being retooled/rebalanced to make sense in a sandbox mmo.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Was this updated? The post I saw stated it would last for the duration it took to raise the undead and perhaps a moment or two more, so that a Paladin (as used in that example) pretty much had to catch the person in the act. If this was changed, then forgive my misinformation.
From the Blog: I Shot A Man In Reno
•The Heinous flag lasts one minute beyond the duration of the deed unless the character does something to get it again before the duration runs out. Characters using undead for example will have the Heinous flag the entire time they are using undead.
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WEll, Nerdengineering I certainly hope you are able to fulfill your role. This game will need some strong villains.
Villain is the exact word. It is in no way my goal to ruin other gamers fun. Quite the contrary actually, as a true blue RPing nerd, I like to think up my character designs and then play my character based on how I think their individual motivations would cause them to act.
Ideally I'd have awesome rivalries and arch-nemeses floating around the game world. The thought of being hunted and always being on my guard due to my low reputation encouraging others to end my scourge is exciting. I've always enjoyed the darker fantasy characters as well such as Ervis Cale, Raistlin Majere, Dalamar, Artemis Entreri ect ect. In PnP I'm always at the mercy of my GM and play in a mature manner. I'm just hoping that every aspect of the alignment spectrum that is allowed in table top will be allowed here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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meh ... you go raise your wussy Evil undead and I will summon up some Evil outsider pals, I know who will win :D
On a more serious note ...
People need to realize you are not MEANT to be soloing this game, whether your good or evil.
You should be hanging out with masses of Evil buddies hatching evil conspiracies, not wandering the world as the sole lonely heinous undead raising outcast being persecuted by the horrible goody goody types.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Evil will need a healthy community to flourish.
Shadow Haven's trying to do that, and I am sure more such communities will pop up, and I am also trying to do that through Tony's forums.
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Evil will need a healthy community to flourish.
Shadow Haven's trying to do that, and I am sure more such communities will pop up, and I am also trying to do that through Tony's forums.
Very cool, I'm hoping to eventually sync with a group of RPers looking to role a legitimate evil organization. Not just a bunch of emo 15 year olds trying to "pwn" people mind you, but a group who stays in character and does evil things because it fits their character's concept.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's the kind of Evil group I'd like to join too. I like to play Urgathoa Clerics who do not get any more evil than is required to do their Goddesses will (who is incidently one of the least "aggressive" Deities out there!) So deliberately trying to pick a fight or griefing would be entirely unnecessary for his particular brand of Evil!
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a more serious note ...
People need to realize you are not MEANT to be soloing this game, whether your good or evil.
You are not meant to be able to solo in high risk areas as safely as a group can.
People are spoiled, impatient and have ZERO tolerance for PAYING to sit in front of a screen tapping there toes doing NOTHING while they wait for other people to log on.
ergo, if you are not meant or able to solo AT ALL then they should just stop coding, give everyone there money back and write the game off as a lost cause.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a more serious note ...
People need to realize you are not MEANT to be soloing this game, whether your good or evil.
You are not meant to be able to solo in high risk areas as safely as a group can.
People are spoiled, impatient and have ZERO tolerance for PAYING to sit in front of a screen tapping there toes doing NOTHING while they wait for other people to log on.
ergo, if you are not meant or able to solo AT ALL then they should just stop coding, give everyone there money back and write the game off as a lost cause.
It will probably be like Eve.
In Eve you can go solo in High-Sec fine and make a fortune in Industry and fighting NPC badguys (this is the equivalent of the "Good" settled areas in PFO) you can also solo low-sec or null-sec (the PvP areas) if you are good at stealth or covert ops (equivalent to ranger/druid/rogue types in PFO).
However if you wander solo into low-sec (Wilderness/Evil areas in PFO) in the biggest Battleship around you will just get gang-banged by the local pirate player corporations who will likely camp around you until you pay a ransom or surrender your ship to them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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People are spoiled, impatient and have ZERO tolerance for PAYING to sit in front of a screen tapping there toes doing NOTHING while they wait for other people to log on.
ergo, if you are not meant or able to solo AT ALL then they should just stop coding, give everyone there money back and write the game off as a lost cause.
Nobody has ever said it will be impossible to solo at all. I am sure there will be plenty of PvE low end stuff to solo.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...
People are spoiled, impatient and have ZERO tolerance for PAYING to sit in front of a screen tapping there toes doing NOTHING while they wait for other people to log on.
If people are spoiled and tapping their toes doing nothing they should get a little initiative into their character and use that thing atop their neck. Boredom is the responsibility of the unimaginative and, in a sandbox, a symptom of a lazy mind.
If they want a game to do all the work to entertain them, they don't want a sandbox, they want a themepark where the game will play itself for them.
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On a more serious note ...
People need to realize you are not MEANT to be soloing this game, whether your good or evil.
You are not meant to be able to solo in high risk areas as safely as a group can.
People are spoiled, impatient and have ZERO tolerance for PAYING to sit in front of a screen tapping there toes doing NOTHING while they wait for other people to log on.
ergo, if you are not meant or able to solo AT ALL then they should just stop coding, give everyone there money back and write the game off as a lost cause.
Looks like that entitled WoW mentality is sneaking in earlier than expected. The CEO is an EvE guy and EvE is pretty cut throat. Is soloing viable? Sure, but only if you are smart. The whole reason a lot of MMO players are excited about this game is because it will steer away from this hot join an instance group crap where your perpetually dumped in with a bunch of random tools you'll never see in game again.
Maybe if we are lucky this type of player mentality will indeed tap their toes then quit. Those of us looking for a true sandbox fantasy experience would be infinitely better off without the constant whining by those people who don't have everything sugar coated for them.
Honestly despite being a consistent table top PF player, the PF name isn't what is drawing me in. Its the EvE take on sandbox and warfare with a fantasy setting and more engaging combat concept that has me hooked.
Don't want to role in a group? Stay out of enemy territory or build a stealth class. Don't like those options? Then be prepared to face the wraith of the internet and that little group of bandit players who will be constantly stalking you through the woods.
Yes, stay out of our woods. Or pay us to roam them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The heinous flag is something RP'ers have been asking for a very long time. Yes it does break immersion when people walk into town with zombies following them and say "hey wassup?"
I just hope they take it a step further. I am all for trying to bridge the divide between in-character and out of character actions.
If raising zombies is just doing an "evil" action that doesn't really effect anyone then killing someone with a heinous flag for no other reason than they have that flag would be in character good and out of character evil IMO.
If they make it so raising undead and taking slaves requires you to somehow impact other players in a way many consider negative, then it's in character evil and out of character evil, and killing you is in character good and out of character good.
To GW, please don't make me decide between what I think is right, and what my character thinks is right too often. Try to keep them the same as much as possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks, I must have glossed over that part as I don't plan to raise Undead. My bad.You're missing out in your gaming life/unlife.
Heh, after playing PnP FRPG's for going on 34 years, I have played in a number of "evil" campaigns, and played Necromancers of both Arcane and Divine types. Fun for a while, but not for all that long. I've also played evil characters in MMO's that supported them, and again, fun for a while but then they grew boring, at least to me. To each their own :) For the past 8 or so years I have pretty much played Arcane spell casters who seek knowledge over anything else, while lending his (their) skills and spells to aid those in need (I generally play NG aligned Wizards).
As an aside, I can see some Neutral (NN/CN/LN) in addition to NE aligned arcane and divine spell casters going the Necromancer route, if it fits their goals and/or are legal within their settlements (in the case of LN), so it isn't just an "evil" thing. While thr River Kingdoms hate slavery and raising Undead minions, as a general rule, the place is wild enough for some settlements to have cropped up that can see the use of slavery, use of undead and even summoning evil outsiders as necessary to their defense, and being Neutral, it isn't looked at in a negative light. True, most "good" settlements and player will disagree with them as much as they do with "evil" settlements that do the same, but thinking such actions are purely evil is looking at these actions with a narrow focus. Settlements with few members might easily agree they need to bolster their forces, and slaves and Undead are the answer, especially if they use convicts as the slaves and mindless Undead are views as just walking automatons/constructs (since they don't reanimate the soul). Just food for thought.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What exactly would be a step further? I'm not trying to sound like an ass, im genuinly interested what else you would add.
I've talked about this in other threads. There should be strong mechanical benefits to things like slavery and raising undead, but downsides for other players.
For instance say the only source of slaves is capturing commoners from other player controlled camps and settlements. Raising undead creates and speeds along the escalation cycle for undead in the hex where they are raised and surrounding hexes.
So these actions are no longer purely PVE actions, they impact the world and the game experience of other players.
At that point hunting people with the heinous and villain flag isn't hunting people because they chose an alignment as meaningless as horde or alliance. It's hunting them because they have chosen to partake in actions that can have a negative effect on other players, in exchange for personal power.
At that point it's evil in character and out of character, and we aren't left with the choice of violating either our personal morals or our RP by killing / not killing them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The heinous flag is something RP'ers have been asking for a very long time. Yes it does break immersion when people walk into town with zombies following them and say "hey wassup?"I just hope they take it a step further. I am all for trying to bridge the divide between in-character and out of character actions.
If raising zombies is just doing an "evil" action that doesn't really effect anyone then killing someone with a heinous flag for no other reason than they have that flag would be in character good and out of character evil IMO.
If they make it so raising undead and taking slaves requires you to somehow impact other players in a way many consider negative, then it's in character evil and out of character evil, and killing you is in character good and out of character good.
To GW, please don't make me decide between what I think is right, and what my character thinks is right too often. Try to keep them the same as much as possible.
Alignment is in-character. In this fantasy setting, souls exist and certain actions expose you to spiritual energy which colours them. A computer's inability to judge intent or much in the way of context actually models the way alignment works in Pathfinder. Whether gods or some power beyond them (the GM or server), there's always something that notices what you did and records it.
Reputation is a way to model community opinion. It fills in for the loads of subtle communication and direct gossip that few are likely to type into chat but which your character could pick up on. People often complain about OOC information being used IC, but few seem to consider that there's tons of knowledge the character should have which doesn't make it to the player. The low rep score of a thief you've never met before could represent that everyone who does know that person is watching them and keeping their hand on their coinpurse. That's a subtle form of communication that a player would miss (unless everyone is typing emotes all the time) but which the character would pick up on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Andius
I completly agree with you, being evil should not be a meaningless choice. However as it stands right now you would be able to kill me while I am using undead and the game system will reward you for it. Would I still loose reputation and alignment (more worried about lawful/chaotic)if I kill you while I am using undead? Every other flag in the game at the moment gives a tangible benifit as well as A down side to alignment/reputation gain. As a bandit I can reputation and chaotic alignment as a champion I gain reputation and good alignment. If I am using slaves or necromancy I should definetly gain evil alignment, but as I am playing my character as the flag suggests should I not also gain reputation as well?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you kill is self-defense, there is no loss of reputation or alignment.
You can be a 'zombiecop' enforcer, a 'Robin Hood and his merry zombies' outlaw or an assassion - your undead have no effect on how those flags work or on whether other players are legal targets.
The evil flag that corresponds to champion, enforcer and outlaw is assassin. Heinous is more like a variant of criminal.
Playing a anarchist (not obeying settlement laws) is also a 'permanently disadvantaged' playstyle, yet noone has complained about this yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When you kill someone whenyou have the assassin flag you gain reputation. When you give a SAD with the outlaw flag you gain reputation. When you kill an evil person when you have the champion flag you gain reputation. The criminal and attack flags have no benifit as they are activites that GW wants to discourage. Is raising the dead something they want to discourage as well? If that is the case why not simply not code it into the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What is it with all the crying about evil being at a disadvantage? Evil should be at a disadvantage. Civilization is a code of order for the furthering of a peoples' best interests. Evil seems to be against that order (no, not getting into the entire alignment system, different issue). And there will be no lack of evil characters ingame.
In fact, I am sure we will see more than one large evil settlement in the River Kingdoms, and I suspect it will be quite healthy. Stop the crying already. Evil groups, gangs, knightly orders, bunches of thugs....you'll be fine. Look at every game in MMO history and you will find large groups of evils all over the place.
On the upside, I'll stay busy trying to keep you down.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What is it with all the crying about evil being at a disadvantage? Evil should be at a disadvantage. Civilization is a code of order for the furthering of a peoples' best interests. Evil seems to be against that order (no, not getting into the entire alignment system, different issue). And there will be no lack of evil characters ingame.
In fact, I am sure we will see more than one large evil settlement in the River Kingdoms, and I suspect it will be quite healthy. Stop the crying already. Evil groups, gangs, knightly orders, bunches of thugs....you'll be fine. Look at every game in MMO history and you will find large groups of evils all over the place.
On the upside, I'll stay busy trying to keep you down.
It seems to me, there's a lot of short-hand in communicating thoughts and reactions.
1) Extreme scenarios are posited as the general rule and differences magnified between eg LG and any other combo. Most of the population will hover around Neutral = similar facilities and similar gameplay opportunities and frequency of pvp outside of war?
2) The frequency of actions that cumulatively shift an alignment
3) The equivalence assumption between L/G <-> C/E. I think it's asymmetrical as it should be due to social impact related to 2). Equally how volative such settlements end up being could be another key to how much training they can provide (breaking up continually ie a (f) of time and endurance (reliability)?
4) That eg pvp is an end unto itself, whereas it probably should mostly be a product of certain communal goals that have an economic basis?
5) People will have to evaluate their preferred alignment based on what works best for them and their friends - not necessarily the same as a preconceived choice? Alignment shifts may be deemed necessary
6) Underestimating the relationship between settlement training facilities and the potential for open pvp to become excessive on all the other systems in game.
etc.
Definitely hope the above can provide social diversity.
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Here is a thought, why not let the settlement that owns a hex decide what they consider to be heinous. You commit one of these acts inside of their tile and you get flagged. Raising the undead should of course still be evil.
In essence I think that is how it works. More like while something might be considered heinous, if you are part of a heinous settlement then who cares.
People are getting bent out of shape over labels. The more I read the more it seems like this is really just an ingenious way to lump like minded individuals together. It will just make sense for assassin's necromancers and clerics of Asmo to find each other. Just like it will be just as sensible for rangers and paladins looking to hunt bad guys to group up.
Want to smite evil? Go found some evil player and smite away. Group with a rogue for a PvE quest? Don't get butthurt when he backstabs you when the loot drops.