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Just because the rules for something exist, doesn't mean you have to use them.
The whole "I don't like guns" thing completely falls apart do to this choice.
The "well, historically, guns were..." also falls apart, as Golarion history is not real world history.
Getting someones panties in a twist, simply because an option exists is the most hilarious of lame excuses.
I don't like Diet Pepsi, but I certainly don't rage at the heavens, and feel a sense of scorn to the Pepsi corporation, simply because it exists.
Really, the outcry is pantomime to a child crying because the kid next to him likes broccoli.
I don't like Diet Pepsi, but I certainly don't rage at the heavens, and feel a sense of scorn to the Pepsi corporation, simply because it exists.
So, by your argument, if when you went to buy your favorite flavor of liquid refreshment, you had to buy a couple bottles of Diet Pepsi along with it, you would be fine? Or to put it this way: You go buy your favorite drink, and the store gives the Diet Pepsi to someone else?
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@Dakota_Strider
You STILL don't have to use it.
Also, you clearly have no understanding about gun rules for Golarion.
For example, touch attack: My Musket Master can do this at a range of 40 feet. Sometimes 50 feet. Easy charging distance for any baddie.
And then a little tidbit: If I fire fast, I will have a big problem if I roll a 1-3. Last session I rolled three bad rolls and suddenly... Nothing. Our sorcerer did much more damage in the fight.
And something else: I have to pay up to 6 GM PER SHOT! And this is *with* crafting. And thats a big deal for Level 4...
But within just a couple levels you can negate the misfire chance of your weapon (dwarves get a favored class bonus for this, the Reliable enchantment is only a +1 bonus), and with a double-barreled Musket you could drop that guy before he ever actually charges. 4th level is a little bit of a rough one for Gunslingers. In one more level your damage output will about double. In two more levels it will increase again by a full third, and you'll be making 6 attacks a round when archers will only be making at most 4. And then you'll progress exponentially from that point, gaining two attacks for every one an archer can make. By 12th level, if that enemy within charging distance survives your initial volley of 8 attacks, you'll get to put two more in him when he charges using Snap Shot, probably averaging about 25 points of damage a shot. And god help him if you crit, which given that you've just made 10 attacks you have about a 50% chance of doing.
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What about these "Gnomes"?
I don't like Gnomes! They need a Core Rulebook without these silly Gnomes.
Why should I have to pay for some Gnome silliness?
They should respect my right to Gnome free Pathfinder rules!
When I play various other tabletop RPGs, like Star Wars, I don't have to deal with Gnomes.
Why isn't my distaste for Gnomes one of the most important thing that Paizo is concerned with?
Hell, that's not even how Gnomes work in real life!
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My example of Gnomes was to display the silliness of having a fit over something you can simply choose not to use.
Replace Gnomes, with Firearms, and you get the point.
No, I got ya, but thread is about whether double-barreled firearms are properly balanced (particularly in the hands of the Pistolero and Musket Master archetypes), not about whether firearms belong in Pathfinder.
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No, I got ya, but thread is about whether double-barreled firearms are properly balanced (particularly in the hands of the Pistolero and Musket Master archetypes), not about whether firearms belong in Pathfinder.My example of Gnomes was to display the silliness of having a fit over something you can simply choose not to use.
Replace Gnomes, with Firearms, and you get the point.
Exactly.;)
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To everyone who is saying the shot rate is too fast; unrealistic. You realize you're playing a game where people can slay monsters with a shot glass, or magical energy can bring a new pane into existence? I understand if you think it's imbalanced from the rest of the classes, but it doesn't make sense to compare it to reality.
Agreed. Lets move away from "In real life you can only...." and focus on how the double-barreled weapons combined with free action reloading impact game balance.
To reiterate my points on the topic:
The only other "double" ranged weapon in the game, the double crossbow, contains specific text exempting it from the free action reloading available to other crossbow users via Crossbow Mastery. Clearly at this point someone saw that the double barrel function was potent and went to great lengths to limit it.
There is no comparable build that matches or even comes close to the sheer number of attacks available to characters wielding a double barreled firearm, and the misfire chance built in as balance has numerous ways to be overcome (dwarf favored class bonus, Reliable weapon enchants, level 13 class abilities are the ones I am aware of.)
The core gunslinger class' option for reloading two-handed firearms as a free action, Lighning Reload, specifically limits this free action reloading to a single barrel. Again, why was this balanced against here, but not in the Musket Master archetype?
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But a double barreled gun will make this into 4 AoO's...
I'm on your side about most of the imbalance issues, but some of your arguments do not appear to make sense. How would double-barrel give you extra AoO's?
My big question on all of this is how balanced those archetypes are. Why would anyone take a core Gunslinger over a Musket Master or Pistolero?
And to clarify, I have no problem with the core Gunslinger from a balance, thematic, or realism standpoint.
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So what would happen if you took away double pistols and double rifles?
Would that fix the problem? Looking at alot of what was posted seems to be fine, with really only 1 set of weapons truly breaking the game by allowing for a large volume of damage. As the above poster noted that arrows do benefit from the same effects as the Snapshot set of feats.
Taking away the double weapons, would also seem to fix the problem with reloading as people are thinking that the reload is broken because of the ability to reload the double barreled weapon of the musket master or the duel wielding double pistols of the pistolero.
Perhaps someone could start posting some positive solutions/ fixes instead of just restating the problem? I would love to see a viable fix, other than omit firearms or nerf reloading unless the same was done for bows, as bows have longer range but dont have the attacks against touch AC at close range that the fire arm has.
You have misread the gunsmithing feat.
An alchemical cartridge is 12 gp. Assuming you have the gunsmithing feat and 1 rank in craft alchemy, you can produce them at half price. 12gp*.5=6gp.
This. Cartidges are expensive unless the setting call makes them cheaper(like guns everywhere).
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Once you have Improved Snapshot you will threaten a range of 15 feet. Yes, that is correct: Snapshot threatens 5 feet, and Improved Snapshot threatens an -additional- ten feet. So, the charging "death" is going to take 1 AoO for leaving the square 15 feet away from you, AND one for leaving the square 10 feet away.
Not from you he won't. From the rules on combat and attacks of opportunity:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
Remember, that a double pistol loaded with cartridges misfires on 3. If you are firing both barrels at once, that's a 2% chance of your +5 gun going "poof" with no chance to stop, or repair it. Hows that of a monetary expenditure.
Also, The double musket has a range increment of 10. After that you are targeting regular AC and taking -2 to hit. Unless you plan to fight humanoids for your whole career, being within 10 ft of any target is suicide. I'd also like to see you stay at 10 or 20 ft without spending move actions.
Theory crafting is all well and good, but you are ignoring the primary balancing factor of guns. Short range and low reliability.
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dwarf pistolero at level 8 and two reliable double barrel pistols means there is 0 misfire chance even with alchemical cartridges if dwarf took favored class
he would have 8 shots----fire both barrels from primary gun while secondary gun is on weapon cord (already ruled that reloading is not a fine action and can be done while firearm is hanging from weapon cord in off hand) use two free actions to reload both barrels and fire again---four shots from primary hand
drop that pistol as free action onto its weapon cord and as a swift action recover the other pistol in off hand---repeat for four more shots from that one
8 shots at level 8
at level 11 you would have 12 shots without haste. take up close and deadly as a signature feat meaning you can use it for free every time
so 12 shots a round vs touch ac at about 1d8+ 12 add 3d6 to each of those attacks that hit-----even if attack misses youi do half of 3d6
now it would take 10 to 14 free actions to do that again---but once again by RAW nothing limits the number of free actions---which is stupid.
It is like me saying on my turn I want to quote the gettysburg address as a free action and the GM saying it is too long. So I say can I quote one line as a free action which he allows. I then go on to use 30 free actions to quote 30 separeate single lines.
So does everyone that plays PF just powergame? Like does no one come up with a character concept, attitude, and personality FIRST, then make up the character using a class that fits him? HOLY JESUS COW!!! I am playing the wrong game...thought the "RP" in RPG meant role-playing, not create the most powerful character you can without regard to anyone else having fun....I WAS WRONG!!! SO WRONG!!! /cry
So does everyone that plays PF just powergame? Like does no one come up with a character concept, attitude, and personality FIRST, then make up the character using a class that fits him? HOLY JESUS COW!!! I am playing the wrong game...thought the "RP" in RPG meant role-playing, not create the most powerful character you can without regard to anyone else having fun....I WAS WRONG!!! SO WRONG!!! /cry
That wasn't directed at anyone in particular Ravingdork...and no insult was meant per say...its just some of these power builds "to me" have no meaning...the game is about so much more than how much damage you can do in one round, or how many times you can attack in one round, its the GM telling a story that your characters play a ROLE in...the GM uses what you give him to make the story a good one that lets you make choices that mean something to your character...it lets you play as someone you always wanted to be or make up a character that coincides with someone in RL you admire or whatever
I personally have had wanted to play a gunslinger...but I never imagined him as the kind the used a "double" pistol or musket, the "double" weapons don't fit any part of what I had imagined in my gunslinger...and if the only reason someone can give me as to why they chose it over a NORMAL gun is because its stronger...then I don't want to play with those people
I know this rant is not about the original question about reloading the gun...its really simple...unless you are playing PFS...then EVERYTHING is GM fiat so why argue...if you are playing PFS...then your GM can give you the rules on this and let it be done.
If the guy with 2 double pistols is killing 5 out of the 6 enemies in the entire combat session and the other 2-4 people get to do nothing...then what fun is that for him or the other players...he will be resented and the other players will probably find a different group or complain about it enough so that the GM is forced to make a different ruling
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So does everyone that plays PF just powergame? Like does no one come up with a character concept, attitude, and personality FIRST, then make up the character using a class that fits him? HOLY JESUS COW!!! I am playing the wrong game...thought the "RP" in RPG meant role-playing, not create the most powerful character you can without regard to anyone else having fun....I WAS WRONG!!! SO WRONG!!! /cry
I actually hate powergaming, because the newer people get stomped or pushed aside and the game degrades into little more than who can configure the best group of dice. I enjoy drawing the terrain or scenes from the game and Characters and NPC's to include regions armor designs and variations. I love plot and intrigue more so than just rolling combat and simple math along with rules lawyering.
I have found that most like to lord over rules with an unyielding resolve holding it over your head. Rules are good, but fun should always come first. Making game breaking character concepts is never fun, and as a GM I like to be present for all character creation so as best to gauge how the PC's stack up and how well they will perform when working together. I salute you for your desire to actually have a character as opposed to little more than stats on a piece of paper.
After playing 3 sessions when I was stationed at Fort Drum, one player with an a sorceror multi class was able to do the work of an entire party and had such high AC he was untouchable, I took him aside after 3 sessions and told him to either rework his character as the rest of the group was not able to do anything to enjoy the sessions or roll a new character. He understood and we worked and remade his character, I believe alot of this should be handled at the GM level, you are that games master, you have the ability to modify, omit and expunge rules, spells, classes and equipment... do so. If something seems broken, fix it dont wait for Paizo, they are busy with alot of things as is. If your faucet is leaking water at home and flooding the bathroom, do you wait for the plumber to arrive so he can shut off the valve or do you shut off the valve first and then let the plumber work on it when he gets there. Everyone here has posted great arguments and counter arguments, we havent worked really to address the issue ourselves, who has any suggestions? I am anxious to hear fixes that people have implemented themselves?
as far as I am tracking
Gunslingers have a tendency to do more damage than Rangers, but lack the flexibility and spells that they poses.
Gunslingers have range and abilities that lets them advance their ability to do damage with guns, but lack the feats and heavy armors of fighters and would probably not fare so well when or if the enemy closes into melee.
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Just thought of this, was going to edit my post and add it... but the edit button is gone...
In warhammer 40k, 2nd edition when you had twin linked bolters the second bolter just allowed you to reroll a miss.
What if someone works the double barreled pistol like that? No extra damage, but you will be able to reroll a missed shot when you fire them both? A house rule yes, but is it viewed as functional?
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Remember, that a double pistol loaded with cartridges misfires on 3. If you are firing both barrels at once, that's a 2% chance of your +5 gun going "poof" with no chance to stop, or repair it. Hows that of a monetary expenditure.
There is no way in hell a Gunslingers +5 gun is ever going to go poof. He's either above level 13 by the time he has a +5 weapon and doesn't run a risk of misfire anymore, or he's got the Greater Reliable property on the weapon. Lets stay in the realm of what's actually going to happen in a game.
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If the guy with 2 double pistols is killing 5 out of the 6 enemies in the entire combat session and the other 2-4 people get to do nothing...then what fun is that for him or the other players...he will be resented and the other players will probably find a different group or complain about it enough so that the GM is forced to make a different ruling
And that's the point of this thread. In PFS the GM doesn't have the authority to just say "Sorry, your character is too powerful, you can't do that thing you've been doing which is perfectly within the rules". And the other players may not have options on finding a different group. Gross imbalances need to be addressed at a developer level so people who don't have the convenience of having a dozen groups to choose from don't feel marginalized.
And a weapon that literally gives you twice as many (or more) attacks than any other character can hope to match definitely qualifies for consideration as a gross imbalance.I think a ruling that specifies that loading the second barrel of a double-barrel weapon can never be reduced to less than a swift action or something similar would be a solid way way to address this.
Just thought of this, was going to edit my post and add it... but the edit button is gone...
You only get a 1 hour window to edit your post.
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As someoen pointed out a Double Musket has a 10' range.
Assuming you do not start 10' from someone an archer will slaughter him before he can get close enough to kill him.
This isn't about whether an archer character can take a gunslinger character. It's about the comparative performance of the classes in an actual gameplay environment, and how that's impacted by double-barreled firearms. A Musket Master can easily take Signature Deed Deadeye to effectively double the range of his firearm and be more than effective. Yes, he has to be within 20 feet of his opponent. Does it matter that he's that close when he has double the number of attacks of any other character, all packed into a nice SAD package that uses the same stat for attack and damage?
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Sounds like someone isn't playing with misfire rules.
A double barreled musket misfires on a 1-3. If you use paper cartridges, the misfire rate increases to 1-4. That's a 20% chance that your gun is going to break. With every shot.
Combine that with the shorter range of two barrels compared to one, and the fact that you are still spending gold with every shot. Doesn't sound too broken to me. It might to someone crunching numbers on paper, but try it out from level 1-20. Your perspective will change.
Also, this:
Even though the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat grants you proficiency with all firearms, anytime you take a feat that modifies a single type of weapon (such as Weapon Focus or Rapid Reload), you must still pick one specific type of firearm (such as musket, axe musket, blunderbuss, pistol, or double pistol) for that feat to affect.
People seem to forget this a lot. This means that even Musket Masters still need to spend a feat to speed up their double barreled muskets.
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Sounds like someone isn't playing with misfire rules.
A double barreled musket misfires on a 1-3. If you use paper cartridges, the misfire rate increases to 1-4. That's a 20% chance that your gun is going to break. With every shot.
Combine that with the shorter range of two barrels compared to one, and the fact that you are still spending gold with every shot. Doesn't sound too broken to me. It might to someone crunching numbers on paper, but try it out from level 1-20. Your perspective will change.
Also, this:
Even though the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat grants you proficiency with all firearms, anytime you take a feat that modifies a single type of weapon (such as Weapon Focus or Rapid Reload), you must still pick one specific type of firearm (such as musket, axe musket, blunderbuss, pistol, or double pistol) for that feat to affect.People seem to forget this a lot. This means that even Musket Masters still need to spend a feat to speed up their double barreled muskets.
Misfire doesn't apply at all after 13th level, and many people have circumvented it entirely well before then. A Dwarf Gunslinger can remove the chance of a misfire by level 8. Any character using a gun can by a Greater Reliable weapon by level 12. For fully half the game the "balance" of misfires is entirely removed for some characters. and it's basically a non-issue for everyone from around 11th or 12th on. 11th level also happens to be where the double-barreled gunslinger pulls massively far ahead in attacks per round, even when compared to archery builds who are normally a couple attacks ahead of most melee characters.
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alrighty... so in PFS (dont know what that acrynym means) a GM isnt the final ruling authority? Well... I probably wont play that then. I am guessing it is some kind of convention or the sort special rules? Kind of like how magic the gathering had tournament rules and then you had the group you played with amongst your friends.
I would say, develop special rules/ restrictions for this PFS/ tournament type play, and let the rest of us use and modify the already existing rules in the published book. There are always going to be people who find a way to bend the rules with whatever class you have, especially at higher levels with magic.
@Ravingdork
thanks for the heads up about the 1 hour cut off
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alrighty... so in PFS (dont know what that acrynym means) a GM isnt the final ruling authority? Well... I probably wont play that then. I am guessing it is some kind of convention or the sort special rules? Kind of like how magic the gathering had tournament rules and then you had the group you played with amongst your friends.
This is a fairly close approximation, yeah. PFS play is pretty huge. I know our local PFS group has hit 30+ regular attendees for Friday Night Pathfinder and is thinking about expanding to a second store-front location in the near future. For some people this is the only place to find a group. It can also be an acceptable environment for younger people to join a group and adopt the hobby. Because of the wide player base, someone needs to be able to take a character from one table to another and expect a fair and consistent ruling, which is why addressing imbalance issues at the root is often the best course of action.
It also helps to have threads like this because they can educate GM's about the existing balances while people debate the existence of imbalances. I know that in the early days of the gunslinger, there were a lot of issues with GM's unfamiliar with class failing to properly track gold spent on ammunition, misfire calculations, all applicable penalties (firing two barrels simultaneously, TWF, etc.) for GS characters.
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There are lots of fixes Game masters can improve, and I have seen alot of points and counter points. It largely seems that if someone power builds a gunslinger as the original poster shows us, that they can be very dangerous. Do I think thats a cause for a rules change... not really, a GM can handle that on his end with omitting the double weapons. How well does the gunslinger work without the double weapons? IF this neutralizes alot of the problem, then unlike the title of this post reloading isnt the issue, but instead the double firearms are? Is anyone else seeing this? I keep seeing the same thing over and over, someone points out that it isnt an issue, then Theomniadept keeps referencing the same thing that it is, and it just keeps hitting me in the face that it isnt the class or reloading its the the double pistol/ musket.
Like if a Gunslinger has only a regular single shot pistol, he reloads it as a free action or even does the yo-yo guns thing, he is still only getting up to his attacks per turn righ? If he dual wields then once again his dual wielding attacks assuming he has a way to reload them or swap out. The large volume of damage seems to stem directly from the double weapons.... so focus on ways to mitigate those weapons, not the class or reloading, does that make alittle sense? Or do some people just hate the concept that others people will have fire arms in their games and thus want them gone... so they dont have to worry about their favorite build competing with a double pistol dual wielding gunslinger in a PFS thingy?
*edit*
ok a couple posts got up before I could post this, thanks for the heads up on some things. I am sure there was a play test for the Gunslinger, as Paizo has plenty of experience with it, I dont think they are perfect and a bug will always happen as it seems to have happened with the double firearms.... they (paizo) is probably work on a solution, but also monitoring the threads to see if anyone here has proposed a solution other than remove it or change the entire system to nerf the gunslinger and fire arms.
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There are lots of fixes Game masters can improve, and I have seen alot of points and counter points. It largely seems that if someone power builds a gunslinger as the original poster shows us, that they can be very dangerous. Do I think thats a cause for a rules change... not really, a GM can handle that on his end with omitting the double weapons. How well does the gunslinger work without the double weapons? IF this neutralizes alot of the problem, then unlike the title of this post reloading isnt the issue, but instead the double firearms are? ***
This is pretty much exactly it. Being able to reload both barrels of a double-barreled firearm as free actions means that firearm wielders are making anywhere from 8-10 attacks per round, at levels where most other characters may be making up to half that. And while the penalties associated with double barreled weapons balance them fairly well for the first 5 levels of the game, those penalties just don't count for much as you proceed past that point. I think probably the simplest fix, is to limit the reloading on the second barrel of a double-barreled weapon in some way. Something like "because of the increased awkwardness of the weapon, the secondary barrel can only be reloaded as a swift action" or something to that effect. That would limit gunslingers to gaining no more than two extra attacks in a full attack routine, which still gives them an advantage, but a much better balanced one.
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@ Theomniadept
sounds like your gm was kind of mean about it, I dont think anyone really changes all the rules, and when something is new like the gunslinger class then it really isnt like people dont know how to play them as alot of people are still learning them. If you were in a different country then maybe the knowledge local would hurt you, because it is suppose to be the area around you mostly upon character creation. Like when I PCS'ed to Japan and then Germany later, their laws and such threw me for a loop, while familiar with US laws I was lost on some polcies they had. Now if that town was in the same country or in a adjacent country that uses the same laws and legal system as yours... then once again... its the GM.
dont want to toot my horn but having been a GM for 24 years, I have learned that if you are going to effect change to a rule because it is broken, it is best to sit down and discuss it with your group, as your group is usually a close set of friends (unless it is a PFS, which can be complete strangers that eventually turn into friends which I think was the point in its conception) you may be in for some rough water if no one wants to step up and work with the group on that matter.
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There are lots of fixes Game masters can improve, and I have seen alot of points and counter points. It largely seems that if someone power builds a gunslinger as the original poster shows us, that they can be very dangerous. Do I think thats a cause for a rules change... not really, a GM can handle that on his end with omitting the double weapons. How well does the gunslinger work without the double weapons? IF this neutralizes alot of the problem, then unlike the title of this post reloading isnt the issue, but instead the double firearms are? ***This is pretty much exactly it. Being able to reload both barrels of a double-barreled firearm as free actions means that firearm wielders are making anywhere from 8-10 attacks per round, at levels where most other characters may be making up to half that. And while the penalties associated with double barreled weapons balance them fairly well for the first 5 levels of the game, those penalties just don't count for much as you proceed past that point. I think probably the simplest fix, is to limit the reloading on the second barrel of a double-barreled weapon in some way. Something like "because of the increased awkwardness of the weapon, the secondary barrel can only be reloaded as a swift action" or something to that effect. That would limit gunslingers to gaining no more than two extra attacks in a full attack routine, which still gives them an advantage, but a much better balanced one.
I love that actually!
Because of the awkwardness of having to reload a hot just used double pistol with fresh gunpower or what have you it takes longer since after loading one barrel you have to load the other one, and simply dont want to blow your own face or hand off. So the second barrel can not be reloaded as a free action..... (insert relevant new action to be used to reload second barrel or reload both barrles of the weapon)
The weapon has its own special rule, and everyone doesnt have to relearn the rules for fireamrs and gunslingers and reloading... just only if someone wants to go to the trouble to use that weapon.
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There are lots of fixes Game masters can improve, and I have seen alot of points and counter points. It largely seems that if someone power builds a gunslinger as the original poster shows us, that they can be very dangerous. Do I think thats a cause for a rules change... not really, a GM can handle that on his end with omitting the double weapons. How well does the gunslinger work without the double weapons? IF this neutralizes alot of the problem, then unlike the title of this post reloading isnt the issue, but instead the double firearms are? Is anyone else seeing this? I keep seeing the same thing over and over, someone points out that it isnt an issue, then Theomniadept keeps referencing the same thing that it is, and it just keeps hitting me in the face that it isnt the class or reloading its the the double pistol/ musket.
Like if a Gunslinger has only a regular single shot pistol, he reloads it as a free action or even does the yo-yo guns thing, he is still only getting up to his attacks per turn righ? If he dual wields then once again his dual wielding attacks assuming he has a way to reload them or swap out. The large volume of damage seems to stem directly from the double weapons.... so focus on ways to mitigate those weapons, not the class or reloading, does that make alittle sense? Or do some people just hate the concept that others people will have fire arms in their games and thus want them gone... so they dont have to worry about their favorite build competing with a double pistol dual wielding gunslinger in a PFS thingy?
*edit*
ok a couple posts got up before I could post this, thanks for the heads up on some things. I am sure there was a play test for the Gunslinger, as Paizo has plenty of experience with it, I dont think they are perfect and a bug will always happen as it seems to have happened with the double firearms.... they (paizo) is probably work on a solution, but also monitoring the threads to see if anyone here has proposed a solution other than remove it or...
Pretty Much this. Fix the actual problem, IE double weapons, or yoyo pistol nonsense that most reasonable dms would deal with in their home games. It shouldnt be a matter of nerfing respectable builds (a musketeer firing a single barreled musket as fast as he can) which have not been identified as unbalancing by this thread, it should be a matter of fixing the actual problem.
Make weapon cords take an action to retrieve a weapon, and make double weapons a standard action to fire both barrels and you have resolved the issue without having to make firearms reloading 'historically accurate' and thus kick the sensible builds in the pants.
Personally I think paizo really dropped the ball on the firearms rules. I think the touch AC thing was a mistake that was pointed out in the gunslinger playtest, but it was too late since the new firearms rules were already in the setting book, and every other problem about gunslingers and the amount of money the stupid things cost, or the difficulty in firing the darn thing stem from that. There arent likely to be any gunslingers in my game any time soon, but that has nothing to do with firearms in my fantasy, and everything to do with the clunky and poorly executed firearm rules.
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I find that the core Gunslinger is actually fairly well balanced. Once you get past the whole "Guns in my fantast WTF!!! And they target WHAT kind of AC?!?!" factor, the class performs at about the level you'd expect.
The issue lies with double weapons. There's only one other Double weapon in the game, the double crossbow, and that weapon specifically contains text that limits you to reloading it as a move action.
As Sgt. Spectre and I were discussing, probably the simplest way to resolve this is to limit the reloading of both barrels to some kind of once a round action. I think that a swift action would probably be appropriate ( "because of the awkwardness of this weapon the secondary barrel can only be reloaded once a round, as a swift action"), it wouldn't destroy any current builds and would still give the gunslinger a fairly large number attacks each round, either on par or a couple attacks ahead of an archer. This would be a fairly good equivalent, since on average the Gunslinger is already capable of dealing more damage per shot than just about any other ranged character.
It also has absolutely no effect on your average single-barrel firearm gunslingers, and gets rid of the ridiculousness of a character using pistols managing to fire off more attacks a round than the guy with a pair of revolvers.
We've now addressed game balance and made a nod towards our players clamoring for "realism" without impacting the core gunslinger class at all.
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I find that the core Gunslinger is actually fairly well balanced. Once you get past the whole "Guns in my fantast WTF!!! And they target WHAT kind of AC?!?!" factor, the class performs at about the level you'd expect.
The issue lies with double weapons.
I think the issue is a bit more than that - it's the combination of double-barreled guns with free action reloading.
Above, I asked why anyone would play a core Gunslinger over a Musket Master or Pistolero. I think it's significant that nobody responded.
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I find that the core Gunslinger is actually fairly well balanced. Once you get past the whole "Guns in my fantast WTF!!! And they target WHAT kind of AC?!?!" factor, the class performs at about the level you'd expect.
The issue lies with double weapons.
I think the issue is a bit more than that - it's the combination of double-barreled guns with free action reloading.
Above, I asked why anyone would play a core Gunslinger over a Musket Master or Pistolero. I think it's significant that nobody responded.
Agreed. The Musket Master and Pistolero are flat out upgrades over the core gunslinger. What do they give up? The ability to use weapons they wouldn't have the feats for anyways?
In return for this the Pistolero gets gobs of extra damage and the Musket Master gets the ability to full attack with a two-handed firearm without spending grit, something denied the Core gunslinger build.These issues are then compounded two-fold by the double-barreled firearm.
I think if you retool the double-barreled firearms and remmove the possibility of free action reloading for both barrels though, the issues with the archetypes become much less important.
Agreed. The Musket Master and Pistolero are flat out upgrades over the core gunslinger. What do they give up? The ability to use weapons they wouldn't have the feats for anyways?
In return for this the Pistolero gets gobs of extra damage and the Musket Master gets the ability to full attack with a two-handed firearm without spending grit, something denied the Core gunslinger build.
These issues are then compounded two-fold by the double-barreled firearm.
I think if you retool the double-barreled firearms and remmove the possibility of free action reloading for both barrels though, the issues with the archetypes become much less important.
I disagree with Musket Master but agree that Pistolero can be overpowered.
My current Musket Master has a dragon pistol (guns are common so martial weapons) I carry a Musket, culverin, and dragon pistol. No double pistol as you only get the free rapid reload with normal muskets.Took Rapid reload for Culverin as well. Dragon pistol takes a long time to reload, but 1/battle I expect to use it for scatter entangle or fire.
Not all musket masters take double muskets.
The RAW on page 136 of the Ultimate Combat says:
It is a standard action to load each barrel of a one-handed early firearm and a full-round action to load each barrel of a two-handed early firearm.Based on this, it will take two, full-round actions to reload it. Even with the Musket Master abilities to treat it as a one-handed firearm, that's two-standard actions, and with rapid reload, it takes two-move actions to reload both barrels.
Move action + Move Action = full round's worth of actions.
Simply put, regardless of how many attacks you have - based on your level - you could not feasibly have twelve+ attacks a round with your musket because you can only get one swift action a round.
You made an error.
You stopped at move action.Add something called alchemical ammo, they cost more 12 gp or 6 when crafted. Can you guess what they do?
They increase misfire but increase move action to free action.
How many free actions can you perform?
Well, how many do archers get. Exactly, at least one per attack.
So the issue that this thread seems to be about is already fine as written. If I have a double-barreled musket, I can have up to two attacks a round, if my BAB allows it OR I can fire both at the same and taking a -4 to both attacks.
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If shooting normal ammo.