Okay, here's how I'm getting the ridiculous number of attacks:
First, assume a 16th level character or onwards. This would mean they get 4 attacks, like any Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Paladin, etc., including Gunslinger.
Next, add Rapid Shot. This means as a full attack you get one MORE attack. Also, add either the Haste spell or the Speed enchantment, which adds another attack. Now we have the 6 attacks that archers and brawlers can make. This is very normal, pretty much par for the course.
Now let's take things a step further. Two Weapon fighting has three feats: Two Weapon Fighting, and its Improved and Greater versions that altogether add 3 more attacks. Factor in Haste/Speed enchantment on this off hand and you get another attack with the weapon, for 4 more attacks. We are up to ten. This is feat-heavy and legitimate for any melee fighter with two weapons and for any hand-crossbow user who will still only be shooting d4 damage without any stat to add to damage like a bow.
Now look at the Pistolero: with TWO double-barreled pistols he can fire -both- barrels as an attack. At the same time. If, referring to my first post, he is completely able to reload these with free actions (requiring Quick Draw, just like using two hand crossbows) then his ten attacks are each using two bullets. That's double the attacks on a higher damaging weapon. Yes, there are attack penalties, but again, a -4 to all attacks in exchange for literally double the attacks is ridiculous. And this is only possible because firing both barrels is just counted as one attack.
Before I forgot you can't get 4 off hand attacks so my math was off a bit but this is still an extremely broken ability. Thus; either the action for reloading multiple barrels needs to be errata'd as some sort of increase to the action or there is literally no reason to play any ranged class other than Pistolero or Musket Master.
And just for the sake of having the math here, 4 attacks from BAB + 1 from Rapid shot + 1 from Haste/Speed is 6 attacks,...
Okay so 12 is max for Muskt Master 16:
And just for the sake of having the math here, 4 attacks from BAB + 1 from Rapid shot + 1 from Haste/Speed is 6 attacks, which the Musket Master with a double barreled musket doubles to 12. With a two-handed gun.Pistolero can't reload if he dual wields sadly. Unless you have 4 double barred pistols, carry 2 in hands shoot, drop 1, reload, draw another, shoot, drop 1, reload other, shoot, drop 1, reload, shoot double one weapon.
2 shot=4, 2 shots =4, 2 shot=4, 2 shot=8 shot, uses no haste/rapid reload.
You can get around this hand issue with Alchemist dip for a third hand to help reloading.
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Well most classes get weird or skew at or around level 15 as developers have stated.
Also to achieve that amount of shots per round they are very heavily feat and magic dependant, hrmmmm.
I personally dont much of a problem with the gunslinger, though most of my experience with characters is usually with what I believe to be their most fun moments levels 4 though 10 usually. It seems most classes start to come into their defining abilities then. If a gunslinger could pull off 12 attacks at level 6 I would defintely have a problem. Also it seems to do that many attacks they need the double barreled pistol? Just make house/ special rules for firing the double barrel pistol.
Ultimately that seems to be the most logical complaint I have seen is with the double barreled weapons. Using single barrel weapons and the like work ok because you arent getting the extra round fired every time you are able to reload once you get all the feats and all your weapons enchanted.
I say really leave the weapons and reloading as is, just focus on special rules for the Double Barrel weapons then. Some people try to quote realism... but someone being able to nock and fire 6+ arrows in 5 seconds doesnt bother anybody, but being able to reload a revolver pistol as a free action does (they get upset saying its unrealistic, not for balance is what I am getting at). Plus hey... you have giant lizards burping fire and people shooting fire balls from their hands, if someone can reload a pistol or nock an arrow quickly... well its ok.
Design Manager
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Pistolero can't reload if he dual wields sadly. Unless you have 4 double barred pistols, carry 2 in hands shoot, drop 1, reload, draw another, shoot, drop 1, reload other, shoot, drop 1, reload, shoot double one weapon.
2 shot=4, 2 shots =4, 2 shot=4, 2 shot=8 shot, uses no haste/rapid reload.
You can get around this hand issue with Alchemist dip for a third hand to help reloading.
With a Weapon Cord or a Glove of Storing, the Pistolero can easily reload both of his double-barreled pistols during a full attack sequence. Alternatively, you could dip a couple levels of Alchemist and pick up a third arm. And I'm sure there are other ways to reload those firearms...
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And I'm sure there are other ways to reload those firearms...
Building a custom race with multiple arms...
Personally, I think the fact that a given gunslinger isn't useful in most rolls beyond ranged DPS, has no magic, only gets light armor, has a constant drain on his resources, has a weapon that will not work more often then it will crit (or just blow up), and requires a very specific list of feats up to 5th level in order to maximize effectiveness, is an effective trade for a very specific build to do that sort of damage.
You can't take advantage of two speed weapon simultaneously. Speed weapons also don't stack with effects like haste. You get ONE extra attack, which can be from either speed weapon, but not both.
That means you get (4 base + 3 duel-wielding + 1 rapid shot + 1 speed) x 2 = 18 attacks.
I'm pretty sure people elsewhere have figured out how to get around the reload process, though that may have been limited to one-handed firearms.
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First, assume a 16th level character or onwards. This would mean they get 4 attacks[...]
Next, add Rapid Shot. This means as a full attack you get one MORE attack. Also, add either the Haste spell or the Speed enchantment, which adds another attack. Now we have the 6 attacks[...]
You're legit up to this point.
Now let's take things a step further. Two Weapon fighting has three feats: Two Weapon Fighting, and its Improved and Greater versions that altogether add 3 more attacks. Factor in Haste/Speed enchantment on this off hand and you get another attack with the weapon, for 4 more attacks. We are up to ten[...]
Now look at the Pistolero: with TWO double-barreled pistols he can fire -both- barrels as an attack. At the same time. If, referring to my first post, he is completely able to reload these with free actions (requiring Quick Draw, just like using two hand crossbows) then his ten attacks are each using two bullets. That's double the attacks on a higher damaging weapon.
Hold on there, cowboy. You're breaking the rules in 3 areas.
1.) You must have a free hand to reload a firearm. Two-weapon fighting means you don't have a free hand. Therefore you can't reload to make a full attack with 2 double-barrel pistols.
2.) Quick Draw has no effect on how quickly you can sheathe a weapon. Sheathing a weapon is still a move action. Therefore, you still can't reload while holding 2 double-barrel pistols.
3.) You cannot benefit from multiple Haste/Speed effects. The rules state this clearly in both descriptions. Therefore you can only use the effect of 1 Speed weapon at a time; there's no point in wielding 2 Speed weapons.
Do many firearm mechanics need cleaning up? Yes. Can you make 24 attacks in around with them? Not without houseruling.
EDIT: Using a Weapon Cord is a swift action, so you could only use it once, meaning you still wouldn't be able to get all of your attacks. You can't wield a weapon in the same hand as a glove of storing, so that won't work either.
EDIT #2: Prehensile Tail is a swift action, not a free action, meaning that just like the Weapon Cord, you could only use it once during a full attack.
Spiked Chains, Orc Double Axes, Barbazu Beards, and Dire Flails, but the great hero who loads his gun too fast?
Unforgivable.
Not to mention have you ever extrapolated the 40 yard dash time of a dual class Monk/Barbarian....lol
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***1.) You must have a free hand to reload a firearm. Two-weapon fighting means you don't have a free hand. Therefore you can't reload to make a full attack with 2 double-barrel pistols.
***
Just wanted to point out that if you look at the posts right before yours there's at least... 5 different ways to reload double-barreled pistols while dual wielding, 4 which are PFS legal. And there's probably more not mentioned. So I think we're looking at 18 attacks being the total for a dual wielding double-barrel pistol wielder at 16th level, doing at least 1d8+5+4d6 a shot before any feats like Deadly Aim or weapon enhancements are applied with no chance to misfire and a x4 crit.
I'm not commenting on whether or not that's broken, I just want to make sure we've got a fair assessment of we're looking at.
Just wanted to point out that if you look at the posts right before yours there's at least... 5 different ways to reload double-barreled pistols while dual wielding, 4 which are PFS legal. And there's probably more not mentioned.
Seen and accounted for in an edit to my post. Bottom line: still wouldn't work. Unless I missed something. Which is likely. ^_^
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I have also asked and had verified that the witches hair trick can also function as an additional limb to help reload a pistol as a free action as they said it counts as a third arm effectively wielding objects like a normal arm would, but unable to wield a weapon in combat. Double dipping as everyone else calls it.
Free Actions
Free actions don’t take any time at all, though there may
be limits to the number of free actions you can perform
in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity.
I would view having an additional hand come up to help load or hold as a free action. It doesnt take any time or in the case of the witch hair, it could already be wrapped around the pistol grip and it just holds it in place while your hand loads it.
Swift Actions
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time,
but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a
free action.
I would think this would be like reloading a M249, you open her up and replace the belt then heft it back up chargning it, pretty quick to do when proficient with it.
The text states that it is a swift action to RETRIEVE a STOWED object from a player's possession. This is to get around the move action of having to search for the particular item in your bag. It does not comment on taking something from your own hand and placing it into another "hand" which is what a prehensile tail is. Switching hands is a free action as far as I know and from how the text is read there is nothing about it being a swift action.
It's debatable whether or not Prehensile Tail can even be used to retrieve an equipped weapon. It specifically says that it can be used to retrieve stowed items, but it doesn't even hint of other possible uses beyond that. Therefore technically, even using it to temporarily hold a weapon would be a houserule. In my opinion it's quite a reasonable houserule; I'm simply pointing out RAW. Using Prehensile Tail this way is reasonable, but not covered RAW.
Heh. If we wanted accuracy with our fantasy guns, that pepperbox would have range increment of about 5 ft. Maybe. That thing was inaccurate as hell.
well while we are on the subject of things happening too quick if reload speeds bother you then how do you feel about the speed at which one can dig through a spell component pouch?
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Well the witch hair or prehensile tail depending on how large people envision it, could perhaps always be holding it or wrapped around it if need be (the pistol grip), so its not even dropping it but rather just holding it in place while the hand does the reloading.
Someone could rules lawyer it to death though, but I think anyone with two brain cells to rub together would say they could, a monkey's tail can grab alot of things and even suspend themselves, I would think hinting at other uses beyond that would sort of be implied personally. It would be house ruled if someone wanted to get in a nasty debate about it... but as long as the tail isnt doing the attacking or wielding a wand and using it, just merely using a prehensile tail or hair to hold something while someone else reloads it should be fine.
Afterall, what would you have a prehensile tail do if it cant hold something? If it cant hold something, it cant retieve something? Personally it should be able to help reload atleast one firearm/ pistol. Now if someone wields two pistols they would need a way hold two pistols in place while they used something like gloves of storing. I would logically be able to see the hair doing this as someone can grow it to like 10 feet, and even lift a person up without hurting their neck or head somehow (suspension of disbelief) So I would think that if able to lift and restrain a medium sized creature (alot harder than simply holding a small inanimate object that only weighs 3-5 lbs) It should be able to hold or steady, if not outright load a pistol, especially if using alchemical cartridges and the like. Once again, there are very few official rules on all of this, but I am just going more with the spirit of the rules since there is not much written to cover this to the point of a verbatim rules to be read/interpret as written.
The PC's should also remember, if they build something super cheesy, cheap or something that is legal, but bends the rules so much so that it is game breaking.... it doesnt mean they hold a monopoly on that build, and they may have to fight that in the form of a monster or NPC.
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I know alot of people simply dont use spell components... just because of the expenditure on gaming, where everyone else is doing something or wants to do something, but the wizard has to go hunt for a special type of grass or a 500gp ruby.
It does limit the wizard... but it limits the rest of the party since he may feel he cant contribute to the group as well, because he cant get components.
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EDIT: Using a Weapon Cord is a swift action, so you could only use it once, meaning you still wouldn't be able to get all of your attacks. You can't wield a weapon in the same hand as a glove of storing, so that won't work either.
EDIT #2: Prehensile Tail is a swift action, not a free action, meaning that just like the Weapon Cord, you could only use it once during a full attack.
You start with a pistol in each hand, both on weapon cords. You fire your first two shots with the main hand, drop the pistol in your second hand to reload and finish your iteratives with your main hand, then drop it as a free, retrieve your second pistol as a swift, and take your off-hand attacks. The next round, the gun that was your off-hand weapon is now your main hand and you do the exact same sequence. This is completely legal by RAW and only takes one swift action, and allows you to take your full round of iteratives. A Glove of Storing allows you to do the same thing all as free actions without even needing to burn a swift.
blackblooded troll; I m not againist guns in FRP I am just againist lame rules thet totaly break any concept of reality. IF you want to
have fantaistical guns put John Woo guns in your game guns that don't run out of ammo r msfire. If you want guns that are semi realistic put some senisible rules in like a a semi realistic rate of fire.I would add advacced guns and just do away with early fire ams unless the GM wants them. There are many godd magic items that could be added for firearms if Pazio want them added.
The one thing and oly thing I reall think needs to be nerfed is the ricochet shot deed. It is far to easy for that deed to be greatly abused in the game. I have witnessed it both as a playe an a GM.
Wouldn't the game's Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers, Magi, Oracles, Summoners, Bards, Paladins, Inquisitors, Alchemists, Witches, magic items, magic potions, and creatures ALL break quite a few concepts of reality?
Wouldn't the game's Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers, Magi, Oracles, Summoners, Bards, Paladins, Inquisitors, Alchemists, Witches, magic items, magic potions, and creatures ALL break quite a few concepts of reality?blackblooded troll; I m not against guns in FRP I am just against lame rules that totally break any concept of reality. IF you want to have fantastical guns put John Woo guns in your game guns that don't run out of ammo r misfire. If you want guns that are semi realistic put some sensible rules in like a a semi realistic rate of fire.
I would add advanced guns and just do away with early firearms unless the GM wants them. There are many good magic items that could be added for firearms if Pazio want them added.
The one thing and only thing I really think needs to be nerfed is the ricochet shot deed. It is far to easy for that deed to be greatly abused in the game. I have witnessed it both as a played an a GM.
Heh. Reminds me of this:
"I don't get why people see D&D or it's derivatives as medieval European.
You have medieval knights (500-1500 AD) wearing renaissance era armor (1400-1700 AD), wielding roman era falcatas (500 BC-500 AD), worshiping Greek gods (800 BC-600 AD), traveling with native American shamans (12,000 years ago - today) who transform into prehistoric dinosaurs (200 million years ago) while wearing the hides of Saharan beasts, who are accompanied by modern Japanese schoolgirls in black pajamas wielding Tokugawa Era Daisho (1600-1800 AD), a mysterious man in a western long coat wielding an 18th century revolver, and an old man wearing robes and a pointed hat who chant mathematical equations to control reality, all together on a journey to kill brain eating space aliens, giant sentient fire-breathing spell-casting reptiles, and a sentient jello."
Remind me again, which of that is the breaking point for reflecting reality?
I know alot of people simply dont use spell components... just because of the expenditure on gaming, where everyone else is doing something or wants to do something, but the wizard has to go hunt for a special type of grass or a 500gp ruby.
It does limit the wizard... but it limits the rest of the party since he may feel he cant contribute to the group as well, because he cant get components.
Let me rephrase
Reloading times are always brought up as unrealistic, yet rarely does anyone ever get upset that a wizard can reach into a pouch as a free action and pull exactly what he needs out of it even if it has the components for 150 spells. Yet if I have a pouch with exactly three items in it all wildly different shapes i need a move action that provokes to get a specific one out.
Also, the gunslinger crafts ammo for 1/10 the price, while everyone else can only craft for 1/3.
Not to try to counter your whole argument with a nitpick but gunslingers craft the crappy ammo at 1/10 but the good ammo at 1/2
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Double-barreled guns in the hands of a Pistolero or Musket Master definitely have the potential to upset the balance of the game. They have capabilities that the base Gunslinger just doesn't, at virtually no cost. The Musket Master has actually already been modified from the RAW to balance him for PFS play, and he isn't even as ridiculous as the Pistolero.
The issue isn't whether they're balanced to sorcerers or wizards, or anyone else, the issue is that those archetypes aren't even balanced to the core class.
The base Gunslinger's ability specifies that it only applies to a single barrel "Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke attacks of opportunity. "
It seems clear that there was some foresight into the issues double-barreled firearms could cause here. The Musket Master circumvents that limitation.
There is literally no difference between the feats necessary to have 20 attacks a round and those necessary for 10 (or 7 and 14). You just need to pick up a double-barreled weapon. That seems a little silly. Yes, you take a -4 to hit. But for a character with full BAB targeting touch AC, it is a negligible cost in most circumstances. About the only time that -4 is going to influence a character at all is if they're being swarmed by ninjas and monks.
That leaves the only balancing factor as wealth. Yes, it is expensive to craft alchemical cartridges. But every Gunslinger can craft their own ammunition at 10% of cost. So your balancing factor to fire twice as many shots a round is that it is going to cost you 5 gold and 1 silver per shot. Expensive, yes, but probably worth it for a character with the potential to end a fight on his turn, which between high-DEX and Gunslinger Initiative, will probably be first. And the exact same price as if he'd taken the same number of attacks over two rounds. You get to squeeze two full rounds worth of attacks into a single round.
I like the Gunslinger and don't have a problem with it in my Pathfinder games, but double-barrel weapons definitely change the balance of the class, particularly when combined with an Archetype like the Musket Master that ignores the normal limitations of the class.
Most of the ridiculous-number-of-attacks Gunslinger builds include weapon cords being used in a way that, per RAW, isn't entirely confirmed, and the RAI on it varies quite a bit.
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Let me rephraseReloading times are always brought up as unrealistic, yet rarely does anyone ever get upset that a wizard can reach into a pouch as a free action and pull exactly what he needs out of it even if it has the components for 150 spells. Yet if I have a pouch with exactly three items in it all wildly different shapes i need a move action that provokes to get a specific one out.
I personally don't think reloading times in general are the issue, so much as there should be some limitations on reloading double-barreled weapons. Twice the attacks for an extra thousand gold is fairly crazy.
The nearest non-firearm equivalent, the Double Crossbow, contains text in the weapon description that specifically states is can never be reloaded any faster than a move action, even if you have the Crossbow Mastery feat which normally makes reloading any crossbow a free action. Clearly when they designed that weapon, they thought that the ability to make 2 attacks a round was so powerful that they needed to put heavy restrictions on it (and it already takes way more feats to just fire a Double Crossbow and reload both quarrels as a move action than anything a Gunslinger requires). Why is it that a weapon that is superior in nearly every way wasn't balanced accordingly?
As far as double barrels I agree that they can push the issue somewhat. Though the fact that you now have double the chance to misfire each round does play some part in balancing.
As to superior weapons and balance issues I really get bothered at that sometimes myself. Look at most exotic weapons you have to spend a feat to wield something that is probably inferior to something on the martial weapon list.
You start with a pistol in each hand, both on weapon cords. You fire your first two shots with the main hand, drop the pistol in your second hand to reload and finish your iteratives with your main hand, then drop it as a free, retrieve your second pistol as a swift, and take your off-hand attacks. The next round, the gun that was your off-hand weapon is now your main hand and you do the exact same sequence. This is completely legal by RAW and only takes one swift action, and allows you to take your full round of iteratives.
This example is legal, but it only allows a max of 4 attacks with your main hand and 2 attacks with your off hand. Any other potential attacks you may have, such as a 3rd off-hand attack from Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, are wasted. This was exactly my point and my statement is still true regarding Theomniadept's example: it doesn't allow you to make all of those shots. A max of 4 in the main hand and 2 in the off-hand.
A Glove of Storing allows you to do the same thing all as free actions without even needing to burn a swift.
I was wrong about the Glove of Storing - this would technically work. The off-hand weapon, however, would still be limited to 2 shots.
The nearest non-firearm equivalent, the Double Crossbow, contains text in the weapon description that specifically states is can never be reloaded any faster than a move action, even if you have the Crossbow Mastery feat which normally makes reloading any crossbow a free action.
So they nerfed the Double crossbow? Why don't people ask if the designers will unnerf that crossbow rather than nerf the guns?
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You start with a pistol in each hand, both on weapon cords. You fire your first two shots with the main hand, drop the pistol in your second hand to reload and finish your iteratives with your main hand, then drop it as a free, retrieve your second pistol as a swift, and take your off-hand attacks. The next round, the gun that was your off-hand weapon is now your main hand and you do the exact same sequence. This is completely legal by RAW and only takes one swift action, and allows you to take your full round of iteratives.This example is legal, but it only allows a max of 4 attacks with your main hand and 2 attacks with your off hand. Any other potential attacks you may have, such as a 3rd off-hand attack from Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, are wasted. This was exactly my point and my statement is still true regarding Theomniadept's example: it doesn't allow you to make all of those shots. A max of 4 in the main hand and 2 in the off-hand.
Sorry Sinatar, you're still wrong. I get to make all of my iteratives with my main hand while I've got a free off-hand, then switch up so the other hand is free and I've got gun in the other. You don't have to alternate between main and off-hand attacks. You make all of your iteratives with one, then the other, and while attacking with either you have a hand free to reload.
For reference:"Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."
I can dig around but there's a quote from JB where he actually heavily implies that the rules actually specifically state that you take all of your attacks with one hand and then the other, but SKR recently stated that what matters is that you take the attacks for each hand in order from highest to lowest. So you could take all of your main hand attacks from highest to lowest, then all of your off-hand attacks from highest to lowest, or your off-hand then your main, or you could alternate Main/Off/Main/Off.
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Sorry Sinatar, you're still wrong. I get to make all of my iteratives with my main hand while I've got a free off-hand, then switch up so the other hand is free and I've got gun in the other.
I was wrong about the max of 4 in the main hand and 2 in the off-hand... for whatever reason I was thinking that you needed to use the weapon cord each time you want to reload... no idea why I was thinking this. -_-
There are still 2 minor issues with this method, though with all the given information it is still legal RAW.
1.) During the next round with your weapon cord tactic, you start with 1 gun in your hand with the other dangling. Oops. You must have 2 weapons equipped to use two-weapon fighting, and a weapon dangling from a weapon cord is not equipped.
2.) The weapon cord rules state that your cord-hand is free, but you are limited with "finer actions". This is extremely vague and is mostly negligible, but it would be reasonable to rule that loading a firearm is a "finer action".
*shrugs* Again, I'm only looking at RAW. My own personal opinion on the matter? You should not be able to use two-weapon fighting unless you have both weapons equipped throughout the entire attack sequence. Things like Prehensile Tail/Hair should let you do simple tasks like hold a pistol temporarily. I think 2-weapon fighting with pistols and hand crossbows should be viable with the right build, but I DON'T think you should get extra attacks from having a double barrel. It's a stupid mechanic. You're still only shooting once, just with more than 1 round of ammo. It's much like shooting 2 arrows from a longbow - you're still only firing once, just using more than 1 arrow. My suggestion? Instead of granting an entire extra attack, using a double barrel should simply add more damage at the cost of a penalty to attack and increasing your misfire chance by +1. This would cut down on the cheese.
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Sorry Sinatar, you're still wrong. I get to make all of my iteratives with my main hand while I've got a free off-hand, then switch up so the other hand is free and I've got gun in the other.I was wrong about the max of 4 in the main hand and 2 in the off-hand... for whatever reason I was thinking that you needed to use the weapon cord each time you want to reload... no idea why I was thinking this. -_-
There are still 2 minor issues with this method, though with all the given information it is still legal RAW.
1.) During the next round with your weapon cord tactic, you start with 1 gun in your hand with the other dangling. Oops. You must have 2 weapons equipped to use two-weapon fighting, and a weapon dangling from a weapon cord is not equipped.
2.) The weapon cord rules state that your cord-hand is free, but you are limited with "finer actions". This is extremely vague and is mostly negligible, but it would be reasonable to rule that loading a firearm is a "finer action".
*shrugs* Again, I'm only looking at RAW. My own personal opinion on the matter? You should not be able to use two-weapon fighting unless you have both weapons equipped throughout the entire attack sequence. ***
I actually agree with you here as far as how it should work. The problem? Other builds don't require you to have a weapon in your hands at all times. You can use Quickdraw to two weapon fight with a couple braces of thrown daggers, or shuriken, or darts, etc. If you can access the weapon, it's valid. Nothing actually says you have to start your turn with a weapon in each hand.
I actually agree with you here as far as how it should work. The problem? Other builds don't require you to have a weapon in your hands at all times. You can use Quickdraw to two weapon fight with a couple braces of thrown daggers, or shuriken, or darts, etc. If you can access the weapon, it's valid. Nothing actually says you have to start your turn with a weapon in each hand.
Aye, you speak the truth. RAW aside now, I think things like your Quick Draw example should be case-by-case. By DEFAULT, I think you should need to have 2 weapons equipped for 2-weapon fighting - but things like Quick Draw should be an EXCEPTION to the rule. Alas, no system is perfect and is going to please everybody. Even PFS games require DM fiat and some group-agreed houseruling at times.
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Aye, you speak the truth. RAW aside now, I think things like your Quick Draw example should be case-by-case. By DEFAULT, I think you should need to have 2 weapons equipped for 2-weapon fighting - but things like Quick Draw should be an EXCEPTION to the rule. Alas, no system is perfect and is going to please everybody. Even PFS games require DM fiat and some group-agreed houseruling at times.
Is true.
That being said, it would probably be much easier to update the rules on how reloading double-barreled weapons works than trying to overhaul Two-Weapon Fighting. And I think the Core Gunslinger class and the only other Double ranged weapon in the game both serve as pretty solid examples of how they should have been balanced.Here's a question that deepens the pit as far as issues with double-barreled weapons:
If I use Vital Strike with a Double-Barreled Musket, how much damage am I rolling when I pull both triggers as a single attack action? 3d8? 4d8? Because if I can fire both together than eventually Musket Masters can fire an 8d8 attack from their musket, reload as a free action, and then still have a full move, making them one of the best sniper classes in the game. And that's actually the most balanced use of a double-barreled weapon I've seen.
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The weapon cord rules state that your cord-hand is free, but you are limited with "finer actions". This is extremely vague and is mostly negligible, but it would be reasonable to rule that loading a firearm is a "finer action".
Expect table variation in home games, but for PFS I'm pretty sure it has been ruled that reloading a firearm while you have something dangling off a weapon cord is OK.
I don't like it (even though I do occasionally play a gunslinger character), but that's how it is.
I know realism rarely happens in PF. But being able to reload a single barrel of a musket in 6 seconds is much faster than is actually possible. Having feats that allow muskets have the firing speeds of modern semi-automatic rifles, seems like it belongs in an entirely different game, altogether.
Meh, no more than using a two handed sword no matter the terrain or firing a multitude of arrows accurately or being an elf or fighting dragons. ;)
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Design Manager
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Meh, no more than using a two handed sword no matter the terrain or firing a multitude of arrows accurately or being an elf or fighting dragons. ;)
Double-Barreled weapons take this to the nth degree though. The most ridiculous Archer uber flurry is 10 attacks for a Sohei archer using Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Haste. Double Barreled weapons exceed this by as much as double, while being utilized by a class with only one main stat and a secondary stat that conveniently shores up their one weak save.
I like Gunslingers and welcome them in my campaign, but it is a little ridiculous how over the top the double-barreled attack routines get.
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At fastest, a musket could be loaded and fired maybe, three times a minute. For the untrained, it would be more like one or two times a minute.
On the other hand, the thing that brought firearms to ascendancy is the ease with which they could be used. They are simple weapons. That, and the vast superiority that cannon hold over any sort of catapult.
I don't really see the act of discharging a firearm as provoking an AoO, either.The Revolutionary Militia had great difficulty standing up to the British regulars. Not because of any superiority of Brown Bess*, but because they were terrified of the British bayonet charge.
If I were to allow firearms in a game was running the rules would have to reflect the above facts. Of course I'm only a player right now and there are Gunslingers in both of the games I'm in. In these games, I accept the rules for Gunslingers, and don't complain at all.
Obviously in Golarion, science works a bit differently than here on Earth.*This was the nickname the British had for their muskets. A design that was in use for around seventy years.
Sir Henry Simmerson: Wellesley, ha! Wellesley don't know what makes a good soldier! Not many do. Do you know what makes a good soldier Mister Sharpe?
Sharpe: Yes, Sir.
Sir Henry Simmerson: And what makes a good soldier, Sharpe?
Sharpe: The ability to fire three rounds a minute in any weather, sir.Sharpe's Eagle
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I have to agree that reloading isnt the issue its the use of the double barreled weapons.
Balance is an issue here, but people should not try to use "reality" as leverage for nerfing the character, however balance is a suggestion... and even then its mostly the abuse of the double weapons.
to quote Theomniadept
"6. The issue here has been derailed by too many posters and is starting to irk me. The issue is NOT gunslingers. The issue is NOT double-barreled weapons. The issue is definitely NOT Speed enchantments. The issue is that combining either the Musket Master or Pistolero archetypes with double-barreled weaponry and following the ruling that each barrel can thus be reloaded as a FREE action causes an unstoppable amount of damage."
I think the issue is the double barrel weapons, you remove them, then the absurd amount of damage dies down. Reloading for other weapons doesnt hurt as bad then as it seems to be a pistol firing twice a go.
Unless you mean reloads specifically pertaining to double weapons?
Perhaps my biggest complaint about the Gunslinger rules, is that they were included in material that I was forced to purchase, to acquire other rules that are pertinent to the game that my group wishes to play. Gunpowder rules should have been in their own manual. Instead, those of us that do not wish to play that type of game, were forced to pay for that hybrid sort of rules. If Paizo wants to make a game that is a version of Wild West, or Medieval Shadowrun, then they should have done that. Bringing gunpowder into the game, creates an entirely different game, especially when the rules allow these gunpowder weapons to be far more powerful than they historically were.
The Core Rules were set up without gunpowder being taken into the equation. Melee weapons, missile weapons and spells were carefully balanced, and the bestiary was created with these rules in mind. Then with the APG, a new form of weapon was introduced. Now if these gunpowder weapons had the same proportionate power as they did historically compared to swords and bows, then it could have possibly worked. Muskets and pistols were inferior weapons to the longbow in many ways. A longbow could easily be fired twice as fast, and an arrow shot from a composite bow, hit with far more impact than a musket ball. A bow was far more accurate, and less likely to break, or to misfire. The advantage to gunpowder weapons, was that any idiot could be taught to shoot it, in a relatively short period of time, as opposed to the months or years it took to train longbowmen. That, and muskets could be manufactured much more quickly, explained why they were used so much, even when they were an inferior weapon.
But with the Pathfinder gunpowder rules, have allowed early gunpowder tech to surpass the longbow. This throws all the work that was done in the Core Rulebook out of balance. Will future material, such as adventure modules, be written to take into the account the more powerful musket technology, to make them more of a challenge? If this happens, will this material be usable for those that do not use gunpowder rules?
If people want to play with gunpowder in their game, great. I just do not believe that those of us that don't, should have been forced to pay for those rules. They should have been kept separate.
@Dakota_Strider
1. Could you back up your claim that the whole CRB is out of whack thanks to guns? Can you show how guns even remotely come close to forcing the need for harder challenges? Just want some numbers to back up those claims.
2. Guns showed up in UC not APG.
3. Some people might not want to play with Ninja's. Some might not want Gladiatorial rules in there game. Some people might not want rules for called shots, and some people might want as many rules as they can get. Why should Someone who does like options have to buy a separate book for each of those things when one book called Ultimate Combat easily can cover them all.
@Theomniadept
Post the gunslinger build you think that no archer can touch. Someone maybe even me will post the archer that easily competes.
Pathfinder gunpowder rules, have allowed early gunpowder tech to surpass the longbow. This throws all the work that was done in the Core Rulebook out of balance. Will future material, such as adventure modules, be written to take into the account the more powerful musket technology, to make them more of a challenge? If this happens, will this material be usable for those that do not use gunpowder rules?
If people want to play with gunpowder in their game, great. I just do not believe that those of us that don't, should have been forced to pay for those rules. They should have been kept separate.
I still don't think they have "Surpassed" the long bow, but till people throw out DPR numbers we'll just have to agree to disagree.
And they are essentially seperate. They have their own section in the weapon section of the rules. The whole forward section of them tells you DMs get to decide what state gun tech's at, and unsuprisingly, "No guns" if the first option. And no one forced you to buy Ultimate Combat, especially when there's the PRD if you only wanted to reference one archetype. And no one's forced you to say guns are in your game either.
I still don't think they have "Surpassed" the long bow, but till people throw out DPR numbers we'll just have to agree to disagree.
And they are essentially seperate. They have their own section in the weapon section of the rules. The whole forward section of them tells you DMs get to decide what state gun tech's at, and unsuprisingly, "No guns" if the first option. And no one forced you to buy Ultimate Combat, especially when there's the PRD if you only wanted to reference one archetype. And no one's forced you to say guns are in your game either.
Answering both Darth Grall and Talonhawke. Yep, I boo-booed on the source. I meant UC of course. And while I was not forced to buy any of the Pathfinder books, including the CRB, I bought the UC because it contained rules concerning the classes that were in the CRB. I am not disputing that it says the gunpowder rules are optional. I am just saying those rules should have been in their very own manual. And I agree that there are other types of rules that many people do not like to use. Perhaps they could have all been included in one volume, separate to rules that affect the Core classes? Going way back, when TSR ran the show, they made separate hard cover manuals for things like "Oriental Adventures." The issue is, I paid for it, as did many others, that had no interest in using those rules. Did not have, but it causes the consumer to think poorly of a company, when they make you purchase something you don't like, if you want to buy something you do.
I would not be the one to do a complete comparison of a gunslinger vs an archer. I refuse to go too in-depth on the gunpowder rules, but have seen enough snippets of them from different posts to have a pretty good understanding. The ranged-touch attack is one thing that I believe gives a major advantage, and is something that is unbalancing. Not sure why it was given, because a musketball had no more penetrating power than a composite longbow. Damage seems to be unfairly skewed towards firearms, especially the critical damage. From what I have read in this thread, it seems that even a single shot musket in the hands of a skilled musketeer can fire just as many rounds/minute as an expert archer. And there are variables that may allow even more shots. To me, that is making the firearm far more powerful.
Muskets and pistols were inferior weapons to the longbow in many ways. A longbow could easily be fired twice as fast, and an arrow shot from a composite bow, hit with far more impact than a musket ball. A bow was far more accurate, and less likely to break, or to misfire. The advantage to gunpowder weapons, was that any idiot could be taught to shoot it, in a relatively short period of time, as opposed to the months or years it took to train longbowmen. That, and muskets could be manufactured much more quickly, explained why they were used so much, even when they were an inferior weapon.
I love how people say this and forget that guns are not simple weapons and therefore no one can be taught to shoot it in "a relatively short period of time."
Bows are easier to learn to shoot unless Commonplace guns when bows and guns are equal in ease of learning to shoot (both are martial when guns are commonplace).Bows are manufactored quicker in PF (because it is based on price).
Muskets and pistols were inferior weapons to the longbow in many ways. A longbow could easily be fired twice as fast, and an arrow shot from a composite bow, hit with far more impact than a musket ball. A bow was far more accurate, and less likely to break, or to misfire. The advantage to gunpowder weapons, was that any idiot could be taught to shoot it, in a relatively short period of time, as opposed to the months or years it took to train longbowmen. That, and muskets could be manufactured much more quickly, explained why they were used so much, even when they were an inferior weapon.
I love how people say this and forget that guns are not simple weapons and therefore no one can be taught to shoot it in "a relatively short period of time."
Bows are easier to learn to shoot unless Commonplace guns when bows and guns are equal in ease of learning to shoot (both are martial when guns are commonplace).Bows are manufactored quicker in PF (because it is based on price).
I obviously was speaking of real life history of weapons, not how they are used in PF. Of course if you would have included the sentence that preceded what you snipped from my post, that would have been clear.
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Hrm maybe the reason why guns are so powerful to ignore physical armor is that the propellant is much more powerful than what we had when we were first making guns? Using magic in gun construction perhaps they even established a primitive form of rifling twist?
They did leave the explanation of firearm construction and ammo construction rather open.
If reloading fire arms needs to be redone, then I would think so would reloading bows and arrows, as you can nock and fire more arrows than there are seconds in a turn whilst even going so far as to nock two arrows on the first shot. Firearms do have the advantage of going against touch ac at close range though, but are less accurate over distances compared to bows in the game. Seems like they made gunslingers kind of like a mid to close range skirmisher while the archer is still the long range sniper.
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Design Manager
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Just gonna throw up a quick sketch build of a PFS legal character here since people have asked for it. We'll do a Musket Master instead of a Pistolero since he's the closest to an archer (the Pistolero just isn't even fair to do a damage comparison...)
Elf Gunslinger (Musket Master) 12
STR 10 DEX 25 CON 8 INT 12 WIS 16 CHA 10
Fort 10 REF 18 Will 10
AC 32 Touch 23 Flat-Foot 22
Initiative +11 (7 Dex, +2 GS Init. deed, +2 Fleet-Footed alt race trait)
HP 76 (64 by PFS gen, +12 favored class)
60 Skill Points
Full Attack Routine: 11/11/11/11/6/6/1/1 for 1d12+16 damage a hit dealing B&P damage, targeting touch AC, no misfire chance.
Can make up to 7 Attacks of Opportunity a round, creatures provoke within 15 feet.
Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Reload (Muskets)*
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot*
Deadly Aim
Combat Reflexes
Weapon Focus (Double-Barreled Musket)*
Clustered Shots
Snap Shot
Improved Snap Shot
Gear: +1 Greater Reliable Double-Barreled Musket, Celestial Armor, Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4, Cloak of Resistance +3, Ring of Protection +3, 32,500 gold left over for extras
I'm sure someone could make a better character with a little time, but there's kind of a baseline.
You've got a character with 60 skill points, so nearly twice what a same level fighter will have, 8 attacks a round with the potential for up to 7 more (more with Haste). He can spend Grit to inflict 7 points of Bleed damage on an attack, disarm with a ranged attack, cause Confusion, knock a target prone on a hit, etc.
Generally I'd say this build is fairly well balanced, I'm just not sure how well things hold given the high number of attacks and large critical, all targeting touch AC. I could have gone Dwarf and used their special alternate favored class ability to bring the misfire rate down and use standard reliable to make it 0, allowing me to use a better enhancement on the gun...
Anyways, it was just kind of a 10 minute sort of deal, so pick apart or improve as wanted.