Off the top of my head, what if fighter could retrain all their feats and weapon training every morning with an hour's weapon practice? Not a numbers boost, a versatility boost.
Maybe immersion breaking for some - I admit to being halfway in that spot myself already. On the other hand people apparently have no problem with barbarians punching magic itself, so you never know.
I've personally always liked this option. Make Fighter the equivalent of the "Prepared Martial" whereas everyone else is a "Spontaneous Martial".
He can have any Combat Feat in the game on any given day.
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All you need to be a scout is Stealth and Perception so don't start moving the goalposts before you've even seen it.No, this is leaving the goalposts firmly in place. "Out of combat" does not mean "Looking around a bit before combat starts". Perception and to a lesser extent, Stealth are still combat skills, much like Acrobatics is.
If your character only has Stealth and Perception, then he's still going to run into the same problem with "What does he do in social situations? Sit in the corner and look around some?".
The build is in the multi functional fighter thread I started in Advice. I can already tell it won't make a difference because you won't own up and admit to anything.Telling me it's somewhere in a thread with 6 pages isn't very helpful.
Keep the g@% d%#n goalposts where they are please. I didn't build my concept for social situations. He is a scout who is used to being out in the wilds alone so being social is pointless.
Please stop adding more and more things to make your argument valid.
You've been proven wrong so bow out and admit defeat.
I'm not going to argue with you about it anymore.
Just leave it be. Some are just impossible to convince. You stated it yourself previously about after showing them that the fighter can do x, people start claiming the fighter can't do y. It just carries on from there. Eventually, it reaches the stage where, they demamd you build a fighter which can do half a dozen things very well which is impossible. Off the bat, I notice alot of them also find the rogue class to be weaksauce. Something which is very surprising. Given thei perspective of melee characters and especially the fighter, it isn't surprising. Good scout build though. That character and and someone else with levels in the in 3.5 scout class would tear it up.
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Off the top of my head, what if fighter could retrain all their feats and weapon training every morning with an hour's weapon practice? Not a numbers boost, a versatility boost.
Maybe immersion breaking for some - I admit to being halfway in that spot myself already. On the other hand people apparently have no problem with barbarians punching magic itself, so you never know.
I've personally always liked this option. Make Fighter the equivalent of the "Prepared Martial" whereas everyone else is a "Spontaneous Martial".
He can have any Combat Feat in the game on any given day.
maybe he could prepare them in an hour, with the option to leave some slots open, which can then be realized with a standard action?
would this be too powerful?
Ehhh, I dunno about allowing him to go, in the middle of combat "I now have this Feat". It makes him a little too flexible, maybe. Maybe if the "Quickdraw Feats" were limited in some way?
Maybe Weapon Focus/Greater, Weapon Specialization/Greater and basic Feats like Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Point Blank Shot and the like? Wouldn't give him a hell of a lot more flexibility, but it'd give him enough that when a random flying dude pops up he can get Weapon Focus/Specialization and Point Blank Shot with his spare longbow to give him a little extra oomph.
i don't beleive that the fighter can't be an effective face, just that it requires special considerations and investments beyond what most other classes require.
essentially, these investments detract from the fighter's primary combat focus.
while you can be an effective face, even with a low charisma
the minimum required is a 14 int, human race, skill focus diplomacy and the ease of faith trait.
which at 10th level, could give with a 7 charisma, a +18 diplomacy
but i have never played a character with less than 5 skill points a level.
and if it weren't for the APL+6-8 encounters, i would be taking skills as my favored class bonus the majority of the time.
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Dr.Fighty McCharming has Diplomacy +18, Intimidate +17, Perception +17 and Sense Motive +16 at 10th level, all of that with a Cha 07 and Int 12. And he's not even human.
He also has lots of feats that actually expand his options instead of simply rising his numbers, like Blind Fight, Combat Reflexes, Lunge and Cornugon Smash.
With the exception of Weapon Focus and Improved Critical, he has no weapon specific feats. Not even Weapon Specialization.
A skilled Fighter is possible, but it does take much more effort and resources than any other class.
APL+6-8 encounters? You guys playing with a big party?
APL+6-8 encounters? You guys playing with a big party?
8-12 player party, and it's APL +6-8 after the APL adjustment of a 12 person party. which is really more like APL +14-16 encounters for a typical 4 person party.
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APL+6-8 encounters? You guys playing with a big party?8-12 player party, and it's APL +6-8 after the APL adjustment of a 12 person party. which is really more like APL +14-16 encounters for a typical 4 person party.
How do you guys manage? I can barely stand the sidetracking and confusion that happens with 6 players.
How do you guys manage? I can barely stand the sidetracking and confusion that happens with 6 players.APL+6-8 encounters? You guys playing with a big party?8-12 player party, and it's APL +6-8 after the APL adjustment of a 12 person party. which is really more like APL +14-16 encounters for a typical 4 person party.
we typically have one encounter that takes up 4 hours of a 5 hour session, the other hour is for exploration, negoatiation, RP etc. and we usually make our characters at home.
Typically, either Dale, Seth, or Javier gives tactical advice and they do the planning.
Seth, being an accountant
Dale being a former NRA member who attends a lot of gun shows
and Javier, being as creative with resources as back when we had harvey. he is also the tied for best rules reference with Seth. myself a close third.
Harvey, before he went on medical leave, had a Mcguyver level of knowledge due to his hefty 1st edition experience.
Dr.Fighty McCharming has Diplomacy +18, Intimidate +17, Perception +17 and Sense Motive +16 at 10th level, all of that with a Cha 07 and Int 12. And he's not even human.
He also has lots of feats that actually expand his options instead of simply rising his numbers, like Blind Fight, Combat Reflexes, Lunge and Cornugon Smash.
With the exception of Weapon Focus and Improved Critical, he has no weapon specific feats. Not even Weapon Specialization.
A skilled Fighter is possible, but it does take much more effort and resources than any other class.
So is that with or without magic items? Because I'm trying to figure out off the top of my head how you get those numbers with 12 Int.
Did you put 10 ranks each in Diplomacy/Intimidate (for a total of 8 and 11 there), then put 6 in Perception (6, assuming 10 Wis), 4 in Sense Motive (4, assuming 10 Wis)?
Then you snagged Intimidating Prowess (We'll say you've got 16 Str or summat for a total of 13 Intimidate) and Persuasive (17 Intimidate and 12 Diplomacy)?
Then Skill Focus: Diplomacy (total of 18) and you're done on those.
Alertness (8 Perception, 6 Sense Motive) and Skill Focus: Perception (11 Perception)?
There must be magic items in there somewhere, unless you finagled some good shit from SOMEWHERE I can't figure.
Clerics of 8th level or higher with the War Domain can already do it.Ehhh, I dunno about allowing him to go, in the middle of combat "I now have this Feat". It makes him a little too flexible, maybe.
Yeah, but he's talking unlimited duration, any number of Feats (granted there are slots left open). Might be slightly too much.
I'll make it easier for you, Rynjin, you can check it yourself right here.
No skill boosting feats other than a half-elf's standard Skill Focus (which I honestly had forgotten about when I started making the build... lol)
You can see McCharming's progression through a few levels.
And feel welcome to post your own cool builds as well. ^^
EDIT: There's not one skill-boosting item... Well, not one that was taken for that, but Bracers of Falcon's Aim increase Perception, and a Headband of Inspired Wisadom boost whatever skills are Wisdom-based, obviously.
we typically have one encounter that takes up 4 hours of a 5 hour session, the other hour is for exploration, negoatiation, RP etc. and we usually make our characters at home.
Typically, either Dale, Seth, or Javier gives tactical advice and they do the planning.
Seth, being an accountant
Dale being a former NRA member who attends a lot of gun shows
and Javier, being as creative with resources as back when we had harvey. he is also the tied for best rules reference with Seth. myself a close third.
Harvey, before he went on medical leave, had a Mcguyver level of knowledge due to his hefty 1st edition experience.
You know, I keep struggling to find commited players... Obviously that's because you're hogging all the good ones!
Not cool, man (lady?), not cool... ¬¬'
Okay then, I see what you did now. That's pretty good, yeah.
Okay then, I see what you did now. That's pretty good, yeah.
Told ya it could be done... ^^
That said, it cost me:
2 feats (1 of them racial, the other I'd consider taking anyway).
2 traits.
2 points in a tertiary attribute. (Int)
All of his favored class bonus.
A Ranger could have saved the attribute points (hell, he could even dump Int and still have more skill points than Dr.Fighty McCharming -.-') and his favored class bonus. Same goes for Barbarians.
A Paladin wouldn't need the traits or feats, and he'd benefit much more from Cha, making his Diplomacy even better. Also, he could safely dump Wis for a similar point buy. But to be fair, Paladins are awesome Party-Face types.
A Gunslinger could probably ignore all of the above. Except, maybe, the traits. His SADness also means he would probably be better at those skills.
I'm not sure about Cavaliers/Samurais, as I don't care about them at all. But they do have more skill points, IIRC.
This build was made to prove that Fighters can do more than fight while still keeping their iconic flavor. Dr.Fighty McCharming is an effective switch-hitter and diplomat.
All of that without the need to be human or use archetypes, although those things really, really help.
His combat feat selection was something I'd use in one of my characters too. I hate the weapon spec. feat chain, so I usually only take Weapon Focus, if that! That said, McCharming can comfortably switch between 2-handed, sword and board and archery without significant loss of effectiveness. He's better 2-handing his Falchion, but not specialized so much that he feels crippled when using a different weapon.
I don't even play Fighters anymore, but if I did, McCharming is a build I'd actually use! (Although I might remove Blind-Fight in favor of something less situational)
even though we have a decent amount of good players, we have our fair share of occasionally irksome ones.we typically have one encounter that takes up 4 hours of a 5 hour session, the other hour is for exploration, negoatiation, RP etc. and we usually make our characters at home.
Typically, either Dale, Seth, or Javier gives tactical advice and they do the planning.
Seth, being an accountant
Dale being a former NRA member who attends a lot of gun shows
and Javier, being as creative with resources as back when we had harvey. he is also the tied for best rules reference with Seth. myself a close third.
Harvey, before he went on medical leave, had a Mcguyver level of knowledge due to his hefty 1st edition experience.
You know, I keep struggling to find commited players... Obviously that's because you're hogging all the good ones!
Not cool, man (lady?), not cool... ¬¬'
- Aaron, who plays a lot of promiscuous women and does reckless things, Aaron dies the most of any player in the group
- Andy, whom does reckless things to a lesser degree than aaron
- My Cousin Ashley, whom has trouble retaining rules and has to be reminded to reference her character
- Myself: i get bored of characters easily and tend to die by frequent dice accidents and have dozens of backups ready. i play lotsa lolis.
- Sebastian: matt's 6ish year old son, plays with his dad, has fun bouncing lightning bolts off buildings
- Shirley: my demanding cosplayer ex girlfriend who won't put out. every session, she shows up in a different loli cosplay outfit she had me sew for her, and she encourages me to play loli characters. she and i always coordinate our next loli pair a month in advance and always play to each other's strengths. Shirley has a thing for support characters, but i usually have to play her bodyguard, or protective childhood friend/sister. i usually play the Sebastian to her Ciel.
even though we have a decent amount of good players, we have our fair share of occasionally irksome ones.
- Aaron, who plays a lot of promiscuous women and does reckless things, Aaron dies the most of any player in the group
- Andy, whom does reckless things to a lesser degree than aaron
- My Cousin Ashley, whom has trouble retaining rules and has to be reminded to reference her character
- Myself: i get bored of characters easily and tend to die by frequent dice accidents and have dozens of backups ready. i play lotsa lolis.
- Sebastian: matt's 6ish year old son, plays with his dad, has fun bouncing lightning bolts off buildings
- Shirley: my demanding cosplayer ex girlfriend who won't put out. every session, she shows up in a different loli cosplay outfit she had me sew for her, and she encourages me to play loli characters. she and i always coordinate our next loli pair a month in advance and always play to each other's strengths. Shirley has a thing for support characters, but i usually have to play her bodyguard, or protective childhood friend/sister. i usually play the Sebastian to her Ciel.
Lol, that's awesome!!!
I honestly think a good writer could make a great sitcom based on your gaming group! The players would be more fun than the character!And I mean that as a compliment! ^^
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we also have Kevin, who tries concepts for the experience
Matt: who has a drow obscession and plays a lot of selfish lolth-worshipping backstabbers
and Jeremy, who works at the game store we play at, and tries to encourage the group to make more purchase.
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A wizard can spend one of their low-level spell slots to turn invisible and become far better at stealth than the rogue could ever imagine.
Actually that's false. Spells can be detected with Detect Magic and Invisibility doesn't hide sound. The Stealth skill cannot be detected because it doesn't radiate magic and the skill takes care of sound as well.
Actually that's false. Spells can be detected with Detect Magic and Invisibility doesn't hide sound.
Yes, if they already know you're there, and then cast Detect Magic, they will know that you are somewhere inside that 60 foot cone.
Of course if they already know you're there, stealth is completely useless whereas invisible people are still invisible, and still has a 50% miss chance once you figure out exactly where they are.
The Stealth skill cannot be detected because it doesn't radiate magic and the skill takes care of sound as well.
The funny thing about Invisibility is that it also gives a +40 (stationary) or +20 (moving) bonus on Stealth checks for the duration of the spell, so...
Invisibility takes care of sound by giving you a +20 or 40 bonus to stealth.
Detect Magic is also nearly useless against invisibility.
I'll repeat, the spell specifically says that you get a +40 bonus to stealth, +20 when moving.
What skill do you use to keep yourself from being heard? Stealth.
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I'll repeat, the spell specifically says that you get a +40 bonus to stealth, +20 when moving.
What skill do you use to keep yourself from being heard? Stealth.
Sorry but that's not the way the spell works so I will repeat. It does not magically silence you, it also gives you examples.
You cannot sit there and claim that it hides sound just because it gives you a bonus to Stealth.
Edit: I would say there needs to a FAQ for clarification and clean up but let's say you get the +20 to Stealth because you are moving. The guy with Stealth skill doesn't have to waste resources and he can do it all day long as many times as he wants.
Our group would rather have the skill guy do it because all he has to do is make a simple roll without wasting resources.
I think the point is that it doesn't need to. With a +20 to stealth, you're almost certainly not getting noticed. By sight or by sound, because they are lumped together.
Stumble around, and they will work out something is up.
It got simplified compared to 3.5 days (where a loud silent foe that botched their move silently would be easy to detect), but invisibility isn't invincibility, or invis + silence.
Stealth rouge is applying make-up quietly on the fly, is the invisible mage better because they have access to fly? Does that stack with rouge application?
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Stealth doesn't make you silenced either.
house rule it whatever you like in your game, by raw an invisible mage IS a better scout than a stealth rouge.(still the same for higher levels, just need the wizard to cast some more spells or just send his pet)
sending a stealth PC ahead is a bad move, as after an unlucky roll you get surrounded by monsters while your party still waiting for you to report back. Stealth has been given more credit than it deserves but since it's off topic so let's just call it...
Stealth takes care of Move Silently and Hide in Shadows, says so in the description of the skill.
If you can't spell rogue, and you think scouting ahead is a bad move, I don't think you should be talking about rogues, or anyone should listen to what you have to say.
Stealth takes care of Move Silently and Hide in Shadows, says so in the description of the skill.Stealth doesn't make you silenced either.
house rule it whatever you like in your game, by raw an invisible mage IS a better scout than a stealth rouge.(still the same for higher levels, just need the wizard to cast some more spells or just send his pet)
sending a stealth PC ahead is a bad move, as after an unlucky roll you get surrounded by monsters while your party still waiting for you to report back. Stealth has been given more credit than it deserves but since it's off topic so let's just call it...
Yep, true by the rule mechanics. Got to be careful though, a lot of things make noise (like opening a door, drawing a bow, stepping in puddles).
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Stealth doesn't make you silenced either.
house rule it whatever you like in your game, by raw an invisible mage IS a better scout than a stealth rouge.(still the same for higher levels, just need the wizard to cast some more spells or just send his pet)
sending a stealth PC ahead is a bad move, as after an unlucky roll you get surrounded by monsters while your party still waiting for you to report back. Stealth has been given more credit than it deserves but since it's off topic so let's just call it...
LOL!
No it's not because you are limited to a duration, times per day, and it being dispelled. Stealth has none of those to worry about.
Stealth doesn't make you silenced either.
house rule it whatever you like in your game, by raw an invisible mage IS a better scout than a stealth rouge.(still the same for higher levels, just need the wizard to cast some more spells or just send his pet)
sending a stealth PC ahead is a bad move, as after an unlucky roll you get surrounded by monsters while your party still waiting for you to report back. Stealth has been given more credit than it deserves but since it's off topic so let's just call it...
Why is the scout not just ''taking 10'' on his stealth check?
Great stealth and the silence spell can be better for the spy/assassin. Guard wonders why they hear nothing, stab. Oh so quiet.
Invis wizard blasts guard, now they are visible.
I would lean to beefing and relying on stealth, there are distance bonuses, it is easy to get it to crazy numbers and you don't have to cast a thing.
Stealth takes care of Move Silently and Hide in Shadows, says so in the description of the skill.Stealth doesn't make you silenced either.
house rule it whatever you like in your game, by raw an invisible mage IS a better scout than a stealth rouge.(still the same for higher levels, just need the wizard to cast some more spells or just send his pet)
sending a stealth PC ahead is a bad move, as after an unlucky roll you get surrounded by monsters while your party still waiting for you to report back. Stealth has been given more credit than it deserves but since it's off topic so let's just call it...
Yes, and an invisible character gets a +20 on his stealth checks while moving.
Why is the scout not just ''taking 10'' on his stealth check?Stealth doesn't make you silenced either.
house rule it whatever you like in your game, by raw an invisible mage IS a better scout than a stealth rouge.(still the same for higher levels, just need the wizard to cast some more spells or just send his pet)
sending a stealth PC ahead is a bad move, as after an unlucky roll you get surrounded by monsters while your party still waiting for you to report back. Stealth has been given more credit than it deserves but since it's off topic so let's just call it...
Take 10... aaaaand its a 34.
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Take 10... aaaaand its a 34.Why is the scout not just ''taking 10'' on his stealth check?Stealth doesn't make you silenced either.
house rule it whatever you like in your game, by raw an invisible mage IS a better scout than a stealth rouge.(still the same for higher levels, just need the wizard to cast some more spells or just send his pet)
sending a stealth PC ahead is a bad move, as after an unlucky roll you get surrounded by monsters while your party still waiting for you to report back. Stealth has been given more credit than it deserves but since it's off topic so let's just call it...
Plus the distance modifiers! :)
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You can't take 10 on Stealth checks while sneaking around - the "can't take 10 when in dangerous conditions" clause applies, trying your best not to be noticed with the danger of getting whacked if you fail is pretty much a textbook stressful situation.
However, a Rogue might pick the Skill Mastery advanced talent and take 10s on Stealth. Come to think of it, that makes SM one of the better talents out there.
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You can't take 10 on Stealth checks while sneaking around - the "can't take 10 when in dangerous conditions" clause applies, trying your best not to be noticed with the danger of getting whacked if you fail is pretty much a textbook stressful situation.
However, a Rogue might pick the Skill Mastery advanced talent and take 10s on Stealth. Come to think of it, that makes SM one of the better talents out there.
But then it could be argued that the various NPCs ''taking 10'' on perception checks described in past modules couldn't really take 10, since if someone is trying to sneak on them, they're in a ''dangerous situation''. It would also mean that you couldn't take 10 on your climb check when climbing, because it's ''dangerous'' to fall. You couldn't take 10 for your acrobatics (balance) check while crossing a rope bridge either, etc.
The "can't take 10 when in dangerous conditions" can be interpreted in a lot of different ways. To me, it applies when you're in the middle of a fight, when something is attacking you or actively searching for you (because it saw you going into hinding) or when you're taking environmental damage (ex: trying to climb out of an acid pit).
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A good point, but I think that a guard that overlooks a sneaking person is not necessarily in danger from that person (might be just a thief taking a burglar's highway over the rooftops to some other location), while a thief most definitely is in danger from the guard (because if he notices the thief, he won't take any chances and will raise the alarm/attack).
It's all subjective, in any case. Taking 10 while climbing a rock while secured with a rope on a sunny day in a safe area? Sure. Taking 10 while climbing an icy wall without support during a snowstorm with Yetis around? No way.
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1) Why do classes have to be equal?
They don’t, but I if you, for example, strip the fighter of all his bonus feats most players that like fighters would be a bit upset even if you say that all classes doesn’t have to be equal.
Classes do not have to be equal, but they all need to be fun.
If you do not like playing a fighter because it is too boring, play a barbarian, or a paladin, or a magus.
So let me see if I got this right, if I don’t like the current fighter I should shut up and play something else?
Fighter are still played by people who like playing fighters.
Obviously, unless someone is forcing them.
2) PF is not an intra-party competition. Who does the most damage, who has the highest AC etc. should not be issues.
I agree. The game is all about having fun. There are many aspect of having fun. Role playing is one such thing. Playing the game with good friends may be another. Feeling your character brings something unique to the table is another.
3) While a barbarian can match damage with a fighter, the fighter will have better eveything else. While a barbarian could match a fighter in AC, the fighter will have a better everything else (in general).
How about no?
4) While any character can take the feats a fighter uses most, they can never take all of them. A fighter will have more feats.
A fighter have more feats. So what. Paladins, Rangers and Barbarians are not fighters with less feats. They get other stuff in exchange for less feats so They don’t need to take all of them.
A level 12 human fighter gets 14 feats. Weapon specialization chain cost 4 feats. He is left with 10 feats.Edit:
A level 12 human Ranger gets 10 feats. Weapon specialization chain cost 4 feats, but he has no need to pick the Weapon specialization chain (nor can he) so he has the same number of feats as the fighter expect The Ranger has favored enemy, animal companion, spells, more skills, more and better class skills, better saves he can ignore some of the fets prereqs, etc. With instant enemy and magic toys in Ultimate equipment he gets to apply his favored enemy bonus all the time at higher levels.
Edit:
A level 12 human Barbarian gets 7 feats. Instead of bonus feats at every even level she gets rage powers. So 7 feats + 6 rage powers. There is reason Barbarian lowers don’t cry about getting rage powers instead of feats. Same reason a lot of them pick extra rage power instead of a feat. So if we say that rage powers are more or less as good as feats (I would actually claim a lot of them are better) this means that a Barbarian has 13 feats at level 12. Then add all the other candy and she gets (fast movement, Rage, more and better skills, DR, Uncanny Dodge, etc.) and the fact the can pick BOTH feats and rage powers. Although usually not at the same level
A level 12 human Paladin gets 7 feats unless you play an archetype that get bonus feats. Do I really need to list what they can do at level 12? In case the face a foe that isn’t evil, which BTW is highly unlikely at that level if you play a Paizo AP, she got other stuff up her sleeve. Divine Bond, quicken divine favor and/or buff her allies or just be a meat shield and soak up damage and use lay on hand as a swift action. If she faces something that is evil her bonus to attack and damage will make any martial class cry, unless of course she uses Aura of Justice and grants the bonus to the whole party. She can use detect evil at will and notice evil foes (even invisible evil foes) or she can cast Grace as a swift action and walk thru the battlefield without getting hit and use mercy on one anyone ally. Say some that is bleeding and stunned.
Seriously, If the feats the fighter gets are as good and as many as the stuff the other classes get then I would shut up.
5) While 97 spells may have been added in UC, how many of them can a wizrd/sorcerer actually take, or cast each day. What do they give up? The quantum caster is a common fallacy people come up with. Jus because a caster can do X, Y, Z, A, and F-L does not mean it can do it all the same day, or any of it though out an entire 8-hour long dungeon crawl where resting is not a good option.
OMG! A wizard can’t take +200 spells and prepare them all at once? We have been playing the game wrong all these years.
Of course a Wizard can’t take all 97 spells in UC and also take the rest of the spells from the other book, but then I never claimed they could or should. More spells mean more option. Wizard Bob has these feats and these spells. Wizard Jane has some other feats and some others spells.
As for fighters and fighter feats. More feats means more options, more fighter feats mean more unique options. How many feats can a fighter actually take? A level 20 human fighter gets 22 feats. By the same logic we only need 22 feats.
Are you saying that from now on Paizo should never ever publish any more feats, rage powers, spells, etc? If yes, You could inform the Devs that you come to that conclusion. If no, what is your point?
Not surprising seeing that the ranger build is strength focused while the fighter build is dex focused. It still doesn't even out with wielding the agile weapon since the ranger is wielding the weapon two handed(+6 versus +9). If the fighter build was strength focused, the dpr woud be substantially higher. The fighter presented is one who is a mix of offensive and defensive. The ranger build is alot more purely offensive focused. Your ability scores are also slightly higher. The ranger has a better perception by 3 points. However, the fighter has a higher stealth by six points. So the ranger build is a better offensive build but the fighter is a better scout overall if we are going by the total combined perception and stealth as criteria. The fighter on the other hand, can survive longer by beefing his AC if going full round power attack doesn't cut it. The ranger can hit harder but is stuck with the choice of either dropping the opponent first or being dropped or saving versus conditional affects if touch attacks are used. The total wealth of the ranger's loot is also above the listed amount of 35.6k. Nice try.
Zark, that is not what I was saying at all, though it is an interesting conclusion to arrive at, though not one I think Paizo would be quick to implement...
1) If you do not like the current fighter, you do not have to shut up and play something else, you can instead talk to you GM about using some of the proposed house rules here to make them more in line with what you want. But some people enjoy playing the fighter as is. It is a simple class to prepare, and does its role very well.
Also, "being a fighter" and playing the fighter class are two different things. You could easily be a fighter who has spent several years in the military, helped by your childhood pet dog. For whatever reason, your respect for the world around has let you get some power over it. You are are a little creeped out by it, but as a soldier, you will take advantage of all your resources. You can still play a dirty, grimy, no-nonsense military person (i.e, fighter), while actually playing a druid.
So while your wording is rather harsh, if you do not want to play someone who has an enormous wealth of bonus feats and a full BAB, you should probably avoid fighter. If you like the mechanics of another class (say you want a diverse array of limited use per day skills that you can trigger in a heightened emotional state) you could play a barbarian. But instead of being a crazy berzerker, make the flavor your own. Be a strictly disciplined soldier who has discovered a technique that lets you focus your mind on fighting, but takes up much of your attention. Same mechanics as a barbarian, but same feel as a fighter.
The classes are just bags of mechanics with some suggested role-playing ideas. There is no reason you need to accept the fluff that accompanies the mechanics unless you feel like it. Make up your own typical fighter based fluff for other classes that have the powers you want.
So your options if you want to player a fighter with better abilities than a "warrior+" fighter: house rules, suggest changes to Paizo, re-evaluate what you want to get out of a class, learn to distance fluff from mechanics, and do whatever you want.
2)I am glad we agree here, though it would be totally possible to keep reading fighter threads to determine if people think they bring anything to the table.
3) I will confess to not having the crunch down for both the fighter and the barbarian, but this was based off of what other people were saying. If it is not true, I am not going to sweat it.
4) The other classes power's certainly seem to outshine the extra bonus feats. However, a common thread in these types of fighter debates is "the fighter is good because it can take the X, Y, Z chain, and really specialize in it while still having enough feats to do this that and the other", while the reply is "but you can take that feat chain with a [insert preferred class], and you still have the benefits of [class' powers that are better than feats]." While it is possible for any class to have the same feats the fighter has, due to the previously mentioned dearth of fighter specific feats, no other class can have all of them. You do mention a very interesting point about the ranger though, who gets 4 bonus feats as class features.
5) I think most people play wizards properly. However, another common thread is "whatever a fighter can do except hitting things, a wizard can do better", and some people have the gall to suggest that even when it comes to hitting things, wizards can do it better (see the many ranged/flying creature discussions that crop up). This same argument gets used for rogues, a well prepared wizard can do rogue better than a rogue. But a wizard cannot out-rogue a rogue, out-damage a fighter, and out-face the party face at the same time, on the same day. Adding 97 spells just means more competition for action efficiency. There are many more options, but they cannot all be taken. That said, I think that making more fighter feats would not be harmful. Some of the suggested feat consolidations that get mentioned would help, especially as a fighter ability. My favorite one heard so far is that the feat trees grow on their own, so to speak. If you get cleave, at an appropriate level you get mighty cleave, without having to spend a feat. Same with the vital strike chain, or anything else. Maybe allowing the fighter to pick two feat trees that grow on their own (acting like more bonus feats) would allow them the customization that people think is lacking.
I do not think the dismissals that you suggested I was making are very accurate, and the hyperbole did not really advance anything. There are ways of approaching this problem (if you see it as one), and there is no need to assume that pointing out the fighter is what it is is the same as saying shut up and go away, or that by pointing out that wizards can still only have a limited number of spells a day I am assuming most people play wrong, or even more extreme that Paizo should stop publishing supplements. Maybe my putting it as a numbered list seemed to be too didactic, and if my presentation of my thoughts offended you, I do apologize.