Stealth wrote: If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth You can't use stealth if people are observing you with any of their senses. There are many senses in pathfinder: sight, blindsense, blindsight, tremorsense, scent. You cant hide if people are observing you with any of those. Stealth wrote: Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth But against most creatures ( those creatures that are using sight), you can use stealth if you have cover or concealment. It means that you can use stealth against creatures that are using sight to observe you if you have cover or concealment. Cover or concealment won't help you versus creatures using other senses.1)Every version of HiPS allows you to stealth while being observed. It means that you can stealth from creatures even if they are observing you using any of their senses(blindsight, blindsense, etc.). You do not need cover or concealment to do that. HiPS just do that: "If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can use Stealth" it change can't into can. 2)Ranger Camuflage allows you to use Stealth without cover or concealment. Cover or concealment is working only versus creatures using sight to detect you. So camuflage in contrast to HiPS allows you to use stealth only versus creatures using sight to observe you. It's not 2 requirements you need to fulfill( beeing unobserved and having cover or concealment), you just cant be observed, thats all. Cover and concealment is just a way to be unobserved from sight.
Oh my, it is wizard vs fighter again, and it end again the same. The pro-fighter crowd is cherry picking every spell that wizards is going to use. Suddenly time stop is removing your move action, because why not?
30 pages of posts saying wizard CAN NOT do something, and 10 posts of saying what will fighter do. I have a tip for pro-wizard crowd, do not focus on what wizard can do, and cherry pick what fighter can not do. Because hey, rules dont say a fighter can attack a wizard at all, can he? Citation needed.
Wish
CASTING
EFFECT
As always ciretose isnt interested in what rules actualy says, he just want to twist spell description until it will match his position.
The equalizer wrote: If you're annoyed because I didn't agree with everything you said then thats too bad since you clearly can't take criticism on your builds Only reason I am annoyed is that you dont read what I wrote, and I have to repeat myself before you will see it. The equalizer wrote: If you want to measure every melee combatant by dpr, feel free to do so but thats a very linear, one dimensional view of martials. I recommend you step away from it since the game isn't run in a vacuum of martials standing opposite dpr dummies and going full round attack all day long, trying to win the grand prize of "most bland combatant." If you want to measure every melee combatant by AC, feel free to do so but thats a very linear, one dimensional view of martials. I recommend you step away from it since the game isn't run in a vacuum of martials standing opposite missing each others all day long, trying to win the grand prize of "most bland combatant" Now if you done teaching me how to play this game, go back to mine post, and shallowsoul's build. Check what I wrote, you will see you have to swap his cloak of elvenkind for cloak of resistance or he wont match ranger saves, or just remove it from ranger. If you do so, you can calculate WBL again. Also you will see that ranger is now better scout overall even when not in his favored terrain, because " is a better scout overall if we are going by the total combined perception and stealth as criteria" as you said before. And please don't forget that scouting is not run in vacum and you need other skills like swim and climb to do it properly. His fighter scout is equal or worse to ranger scout in everything but AC, but his dpr is twice as bad even without favored enemy. This rejects shallowsoul's argument that you can make fighter scout as good as ranger scout, without loosing any combat power.
The equalizer wrote: Not surprising seeing that the ranger build is strength focused while the fighter build is dex focused. It still doesn't even out with wielding the agile weapon since the ranger is wielding the weapon two handed(+6 versus +9) I did not ordered him, to make dex focused fighter, It was his choice. But if he made str focused fighter, hes AC, reflex save, stealth, initative would drop greatly, and he would had same dpr as ranger and his pet. The equalizer wrote: The ranger has a better perception by 3 points. However, the fighter has a higher stealth by six points The ranger has a better perception by 3 points. However, the fighter has a higher stealth by 1 point, when ranger is not in his favored terrain. The equalizer wrote: The fighter on the other hand, can survive longer by beefing his AC if going full round power attack doesn't cut it Im not sure he can survive longer, because he has lower HP, and also dont have pet, which has trip. Also anything that target HP, but dont target AC will take him much faster, especialy when he dont have resist energy spell. It is fun, because you noticed that i exceed listed amount by 400-600g couse of composite bow or tools, but you did not noticed that shallowsoul exceed WBL by 3k, and he still use more gold on his fighter than I do on ranger. Same story with cloak of elvenkind and shadowed enchantment on armor, even though i mentioned it in my post. You do see that ranger has lower AC, but you miss part when he has higher HP. Dont want to be rude, but it seems you want to find every hole on my build even if it is meaningless, but you didn't even checked fighter build.
Now you can compare Figher scout and Ranger scout
Scooty the stick:
I present you Scooty the stick
Human Ranger lvl 8 Str 22 (16+2+2+2)
HP 8d10+24 Speed 40(+10 longstrider) Fort 10
Traits
AC=10 +2dex +6armor +1ring +3 barskin= 22
+2 Greatsword +17/14 (2k6+11), vs FE 21/18 (2k6+15)
Feats(5)
Skills (56 ranks)
Ranger add +4/+2 knowledge,perception and survival vs FE
Spells (cl 7, dc 13+lvl) lvl 1 longstrider, resist energy
Wolf animal companion (as druid lvl 8) str 24 (13+8+2+1)
ac 22 (+8nat +1dex - 1size +4 armor)
Bite +12 (2k6+10 plus trip), vs FE +16 (2k6+14 plus trip)
Feats(4): Weapon focus(bite), Improved natural attack(bite), Power attack,Armor Proficiency (light Skills(7): Perception + 2, stealth +7 Wolf add +4/+2 perception vs FE
Gear(35,6 same as shallowsoul):
You cant stack shadowed with cloak of elvenkind As you can see they have almost same skills without counting favored terrain, but fighter lack swim and climb. They have same saves(we swap cloak on shadowsoul scout) Fighter has better AC(by 5), but ranger has better HP(16), and is faster by 10 ft Now the best part, Ranger has much more better attack routine not even counting his favored enemy, and his pet! I wont count crits in dpr, just hit ratio x dmg vs AC of 21, becouse im too lazy and it won't change anything. Fighter DPR 23,5
Ranger and pet has double dpr of Fighter, even without favored enemy. They have tripple his dpr when vs favored enemy. They also have utility that fighter lack, like trip, or greater cleave. So please don't tell me now that fighter dont loose his combat power when he want to do stuff out of combat. |