The Halfling Genocide Chronicles: They Had It Coming.
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Favored Enemy [Dragons] is not that bad... Sure, dragons are rare and all, but when they do come up, you'll be grateful for every little bonus you get. And in some campaigns, they're somewhat common.
Still, IMHO, the best FE choice is probably Undead. They are very common and/or considerably powerful, both as mooks and as BBEGs. They are also mostly evil, so you don't have to worry about killing innocent ghouls most of the time and they rarely have loved ones to try and avenge them after you slay the decaying bastards.
A great choice, IMO.
They're also the only class with an easily pressable "I don't like you, f$$# off" button for the GM.
FE is not a bad ability either, stop saying that.
For RoTRL you're focusing on the Player's Guide instead of the adventure descriptions for each part, which is understandable.
But the descriptions mention maybe 4 enemy types as prominent, with Goblins and Giants being the most commonly mentioned.
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So... where'd all the fighters go? Are they extinct?
Not all of them, I'm still playing my 15th level fighter each Saturday. I guess I could talk about how I did in our group's most recent encounter and then use that as a segue into talking about my fighter experiences in general (again).
So!
There was a three round long battle. Spent two rounds of it not managing much as the foe was behind four walls of force (setting off preset magical trap thingies on the rest of the room via a magical control panel on his fully armed and operational battle throne :P ) while the casters fought the enemy and started bringing down the walls. By the third round all four walls were disintegrated and my fighter was able to move in and finish off the main wounded bad guy while our fighter-barbarian, who had been mostly on the back burner for the first couple rounds as well, engaged and brought down his prosthetic-handed bodyguard type guy.
I guess it is a fight that fairly represents the larger trends of our game as far as fighter strengths and weaknesses. It does also illustrate one reason I look deeply askance at those on these boards whom I've seen claim that fighters deal consistent damage, because the damage I dealt on the one round that I was able to full attack was high, but the wait and difficulty getting to that point made it anything but consistent.
This is a more broad trend than just this fight. A turn coming up in combat where I have few useful options is something that happens somewhat frequently. It is also a thing which rarely happens to my caster companions at this level; their problem is more typically that they have too few turns to squeeze in all the useful things they could be doing. I think I've mentioned this one in this thread before, but the rate of effective full attacks in combat has gone as low as working nine rounds to get one good full attack on the tenth. Literally the opposite of consistent.
If I had a nickel for every combat round my fighter has spent not dealing what someone on these boards would probably tell me is his DPR...
On the other hand, when I do get effective full attacks, they take a heavy toll. Within my reach on my turn is not a very safe place to be, and, for example, that full attack I finally got off after ten rounds brought the enemy to the brink of death. I end up claiming a lot of kills when things are well set up for me (in a fashion somewhat analogous to how a cleanup hitter in baseball claims a lot of RBIs when there are men on base).
The attack and damage bonuses are plenty high enough (though there may be problems in actually using those numbers), in other words.
Favored Enemy [Dragons] is not that bad... Sure, dragons are rare and all, but when they do come up, you'll be grateful for every little bonus you get. And in some campaigns, they're somewhat common.
Still, IMHO, the best FE choice is probably Undead. They are very common and/or considerably powerful, both as mooks and as BBEGs. They are also mostly evil, so you don't have to worry about killing innocent ghouls most of the time and they rarely have loved ones to try and avenge them after you slay the decaying bastards.
A great choice, IMO.
Favored Enemy: Undead is probably the best favored enemy to have in most campaigns. From a sheer mechanical perspective the CRs of undead run from less than CR 1 to greater than CR 20 (because every creature you can encounter that was once alive could also be undead thanks to templates and such). It's a favorite enemy that can see play - frequently - from 1st through 20th level.
Favored Enemy: Evil Outsiders pretty much takes a huge portion of the CR 5+ creatures in the MM and gives great bonuses against them.
Favored Enemy: Animal has the potential to be great, especially in campaigns with a lot of wilderness or that aren't going to be going through 20.
Favored Enemy: Magical Beast or Aberration isn't bad either.
I don't play Rangers for favored enemy, but when I choose it, I choose one of the above categories as a main (usually undead), dip the rest of them at +2, and enjoy ranger-smite once I get 4th level spells.
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I dont aprticularly see that as a bad thing thought, your playing a renowned orc slayer who signs on to a adventuring party who doesnt happen to be fighting orcs, that is the risk of playing such a specialized class.
I tend to hold to the view that characters shouldn't be punished for their backstory. When you do that, you encourage players to ignore backstory and do stuff like "I haven't really decided on a FA yet, I'll get back to you on that."
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I'm saying that if you need metagaming to fix a mechanic, then that doesn't change that it IS a bad mechanic.
Agree wholeheartedly. But given that Jason isn't going to change the mechanic, we have to make the best of a bad thing.
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Favored Enemy (Everyone): Increases at half rate of normal Favored Enemy, applies to everyone.
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I'm not sure Drachasor read the Player's Guide...
In the "Character Tips" section, there are 5 bolded sections. Here they are:
The Player's Guide has now informed the player that monstrous humanoids, giants, magical beasts, and undead are threats in this campaign. It then calls a great deal of attention to giants in particular (One of the 5 bolded tips is just "Hey! Get ready for giants!"). It lets you know that at higher levels, dragons and evil outsiders may be a threat too.
It then goes on to include a campaign trait specifically for slaying giants... Heck, search the word "giants" in that guide, see what happens :)
The guide has made your FE options pretty easy. This isn't a serious break of immersion, or the GM giving spoilers. It's a player with common sense reading a Player's Guide, and (wow) getting guidance.
Feel free to pick FE:Plant at this point, but if you don't end up liking it, don't blame poor game design.
Plant giants.
How cool would it be?
For example, the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition Player's Guide specifically suggests that players be able to deal with giants:
I'm guessing that you aren't looking at the Anniversary Edition Player's Guide.
The fact you feel FE needs to DM to broadcast everything that's coming up speaks volumes about how poorly made an ability FE actually is.
This is a straw man argument. You've misrepresented what people are saying and instead replaced it with an extreme position. Since this is not a fact, then it indeed does not imply that FE is poorly designed.
Simply put: I directly quoted the RotR:AE Player's Guide. It is very clear about what types of enemies are threats. It makes it trivially easy to make decent FE choices. This does not require a GM to broadcast info, or serious breaks in immersion. It's just reasonable guidance provided right there in the Player's Guide.
Um the Player's Guide to RotRL does not have spoilers, it has non-spoiler background information, and is published by Paizo for free, so players can create characters that will fit well into the campaign setting, and will have a good idea what sorts of things a real person in the area would know. In that quote you mention, it makes it pretty clear: low level go for goblinoids, animals, or vermin. Mid level go for savage beasts or fey, and at the higher levels there will be giants and magical beasts. Seems pretty cut and dried as far as FE is concerned.
In a non-AP, players should have the freedom to seek out their own adventures, so if they hate goblins, they would be hoping to adventure in goblin areas and seek them out.
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I don't play Rangers for favored enemy, but when I choose it, I choose one of the above categories as a main (usually undead), dip the rest of them at +2, and enjoy ranger-smite once I get 4th level spells.
Don't you mean 3rd level spells?
Anyway, now I have a doubt...
Does the Ranger get all the bonuses from FE even if he doesn't know his target belongs to that subtype? I'm particularly conflicted about the skill bonuses.
e.g.: Let's say an enemy is a dragon disguised as a human. For some reason, the PCs decide to attack the Dragon anyway, but it's still in its human form, and so far, no PC has any clue that it's actually a raging gargantuan lizard...
Does the Ranger with FE (Dragons) get his bonuses (especially his skill bonuses) against the dragon NPCs before it assumes its true form and reveals its draconian nature?
From a role play perspective, it doesn't seem to make sense to me, but OTOH, if there's nothing in the rules against it, I'd feel like I was cheating the Ranger player out of one of his most iconic class features.
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Plant giants.
How cool would it be?
easy, yellow musk creeper infestation meets giant fortress...wait a minute, that actually sounds like a viable campaign premise.
Hey Drachasor. It looks like you're getting a bit upset and defensive, and it's not anyone's intent to upset you or be confrontational. We have different opinions on things, and that's okay.
Here's a link to the RotR:AE Player's Guide. It's free and openly available.
RotR:AE Player's Guide
Within, players of this campaign will find everything they need to create character backgrounds tied to personalities and events vital to Pathfinder Adventure Path’s initial expedition into the exciting frontier of Varisia, along with new campaign-specific traits to give bold adventurers the edge they’ll need to take on the unpredictable dangers of that untamed land. This player’s guide features a full gazetteer of Varisia, revealing spoiler-free details of the land, both to chart their backgrounds and future adventures.
True heroes don't need to take on a risen Runelord unprepared! Gather your allies and let the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition Player's Guide be your first step of the Rise of the Runelords Adventure Path."
In my opinion, this information is useful guidance, and helps character creation choices like FE so your character can be more prepared for the adventure and tied to the setting.
It's blatant out-of-character knowledge they are providing players here.
The way I see it, all knowledge gained before and during character creation is "out-of-character knowledge", as the character doesn't exist yet.
I'm not upset. You're just saying things that aren't true. I'm not making a strawman.
Okay, it just seemed you were upset. That was my misunderstanding, and I'm sorry about that.
I am not, however, "just saying things that aren't true". I mentioned that you made a straw man argument when you greatly exaggerated others' statements as saying that FE requires a large amount of GM "broadcasting" to work, then concluded that FE is obviously bad.
I have politely pointed out your misconceptions about this player's guide being inaccessible to players and costing money, without being confrontational or aggressive. I disagree with your assessment of FE, but respect that not every aspect of this game appeals to everyone.
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As I've demonstrated, the Pathfinder Ranger with FE works very well with standard games (like the popular RotR:AE) because a simple Player's Guide provides players with information to help their character creation decisions. This is how many (perhaps most) groups experience APs, and it seems that Paizo intends to have this setup, which is why they release these nice guide products with their APs.
However, some people may not like this style of playing! Certain GMs may want to increase suspense and a sense of shock or discovery by not using the Player's Guide that comes with the AP. A GM may houserule that the guide is not allowed, and instead the players rely on only themselves, the GM, or other approved resources to inform their character creation. This is a perfectly valid way to play, and groups likely enjoy it.
As has been seen in this thread, the Ranger's FE choice is problematic when playing in this second style. When made blind to what the campaign will entail, the player may make a mechanically worthless FE choice. It seems that this situation was not fully anticipated/intended by the designers, so GM adjustment may be necessary if a Ranger wants a useful FE.
Given these playing preferences, I think it's easy to see how some people may consider the Ranger's FE "poorly designed" and others may think it has no issues whatsoever. Given the vast diversity of gaming tables, experiences vary greatly. Both opinions are valid within their own contexts.
Why gnolls ?There is a campaign trait, Gnoll Killer, that increased your favored enemy against gnolls by 2. Instant Enemy allows you to treat a foe as your favored enemy, and that extra 2 happens to apply. So ideally you can crank up your favored enemy against one type(gnoll), and then instant enemy and insta-gib someone by doing that.
I see. Thanks for explaining but does anyone else think that's at least a smoked gouda if not limburger? No offense to anyone using it.
So... where'd all the fighters go? Are they extinct?... Stuff...
Actually, I was referring to how we weren't talking about fighters anymore.
Favored Enemy (Everyone): Increases at half rate of normal Favored Enemy, applies to everyone.
You mean weapon training but without the weapon specific training?
I see. Thanks for explaining but does anyone else think that's at least a smoked gouda if not limburger? No offense to anyone using it.Why gnolls ?There is a campaign trait, Gnoll Killer, that increased your favored enemy against gnolls by 2. Instant Enemy allows you to treat a foe as your favored enemy, and that extra 2 happens to apply. So ideally you can crank up your favored enemy against one type(gnoll), and then instant enemy and insta-gib someone by doing that.
Sort of. Instant enemy takes a standard action and isn't limitless. However when your dual wielding and going at the npc with a +10 attack and damage on every hit well... stuff happens. When you don't have instant enemy you just have to hope there are a lot of gnolls around though. Hope your hunting a cult of Lamashtu?
Of course, taking a trait that you kill gnolls just to get a bonus to your favored enemy is probably something I should look down upon.
Sort of. Instant enemy takes a standard action and isn't limitless. However when your dual wielding and going at the npc with a +10 attack and damage on every hit well... stuff happens.AHEM!, it is just a swift action.
woops! Got my spells mixed up. My mistake. I love swift action spells on a martial myself.
My solution to this is to rearrange the types and bonuses. Humanoids includes just about all of them, but is only a +1 bonus. Think of it as being able to discern between the myriad humanoids out there. The next bonus applies to a particular race. At this point, all dwarf races get clumped together, all elves, goblinoids, etc. The second tier allows me to really differentiate effects upon certain races.
The first tier has groupings like Beasts, Giants, Humanoids, and Monstrous Humanoids. Humanoids gives just a +1 to any Humanoid, Common as dirt Humans get a +3 on this level while there is no entry at all for the rare Deethahns. This later is because their homelands are not within the game area and that they are rare even there (a few thousand total).
I really would like some feed back on the soundness of such an approach.
Apparently what Khazrandir posted DOES have spoilers. It talks about the monsters in each arc which covers 15+ levels worth of adventuring. Heck, it even tells players what knowledge skills to take (which indicates a problem with how they didn't condense knowledge skills more).
If that's an spoiler, then the very title of Wrath of the Righteous or Carrion Crown is an spoiler too.
I can say, without reading the guide, that the first one will have a ton of evil outsiders and the second one will have a ton of undeads.
Carrion Crown is even better with the titles.
See if you can guess what appears in:
The Haunting of Harrowstone
The Beast of Lepidstadt (admittedly this one IS kinda vague)
Broken Moon
Wake of the Watcher (this one kinda is too, but not as much as TotB)
Ashes At Dawn
Shadows of Gallowspire
Actually, I was referring to how we weren't talking about fighters anymore.So... where'd all the fighters go? Are they extinct?... Stuff...
I got that dude. That's why I made a post that used nominally answering that question as an excuse to start talking about fighters again, instead of just making a one line "hey, no, I still have a fighter!" post. ;)
Broken Moon
Aliens. This campaign obviously takes place on the moon!
Broken MoonAliens. This campaign obviously takes place on the moon!
Oh. I saw that title and thought it was a Twilight installment.
Clearly it is the adventure where there is a rogue moon on collision course with Golarion, and you must plant the bomb that will blow it up and save the world. Favored terrain (outer space) is a must.
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Clearly it is the adventure where there is a rogue moon on collision course with Golarion, and you must plant the bomb that will blow it up and save the world. Favored terrain (outer space) is a must.
To ensure success, our party must have a skilled bomb-maker, a diverse group of expert miners, and definitely a bard to belt Aerosmith.
Really? Because there's lot of things the Righteous could Wrath against, including undead. Heck, it could even mean that the "Righteous" aren't really the good guys.
Do you want to make any bet?
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Lemmy, it's been noted before that Rangers don't have to make knowledge checks to identify a FE. They just get the bonus when it applies, there is no qualifier. So you get the bonus to spot a disguised aberration even if you don't know its an aberration. Same thing with Knowledge skills...you automatically have to roll against the appropriate skill even if you don't know what you are identifying!
So, yes, they get the bonuses against the disguised dragon, even if they don't identify it.
I will go on the record that unless you are going to run up against 3+ dragons/day on a consistent basis, FE: dragons is a waste of time. You likely aren't going to face a dragon or its ilk much before 8th level, which means you can spend your 1 Instant Enemy on the ranger smite. too, you also aren't all that likely to encounter multiple dragons. When you are, you also generally have the ability to do multiple Instant Enemies to take care of the problem. Dragons are almost always single, boss style encounters, which are perfect Instant Enemy bait. Save your FE for stuff you are going to fight frequently.
I will note that the capstone of the 2h Fighter archetype has the absolute best fix for fighters not getting off full attacks. Being able to take a standard action and -5 to hit to automatically critical something means you never, ever worry about getting a full attack...you just take a x3 or x4 weapon and murder them with easy-moving standard actions at your highest BAB. Alas, you must wait until, what, level 19 to do this? Ugh.
I believe the historically most useful FE's have been Humans, Undead, Evil Outsiders, and 'Your Choice Here'.
In Jade Regent, Goblins. Boost Evil Outsiders...you're fighting Oni right from the first book.
In Serpent's Crown, Monstrous Humanoids. But you probably want to pump Evil Outsiders.
In RoTR, Giants. You should pump it.
In Second Darkness, Elves. Pump it.
In the desert one, either Elementals for genies, or gnolls. Pump Genies.
In Carrion Crown, probably constructs...the first 3 cover just about everything important. Aberrations are only common for one book, but constructs pop up in just about all of them. Pump Undead, of course.
Skull & Crossbones...I can't recommend a fourth. it's all about killing Humans, in the end.
Curse of the Crimson Throne is the one AP I don't have, no recommends. Although I'm pretty sure FE: Human is the best, by descriptions.
Age of Worms, you want undead pumped.
Savage Tide, Evil outsiders is godly, but Animals is actually great for smacking around dinosaurs.
For River Kingdoms, FE: Fey is nice throughout.
FE: Fey works nice for the latest AP in Winter-time, but Human is actually more useful overall.
etc. Humans, undead and evil outsiders just come up over and over. Second darkness is probably the best AP above for leaving them off, but that's basically because you're in elf-land all the way. Even in Serpent Crown, FE: humans comes in useful in every single book, because the factions you are contesting against in the town are all human.
==Aelryinth
easy, yellow musk creeper infestation meets giant fortress...wait a minute, that actually sounds like a viable campaign premise.Plant giants.
How cool would it be?
Yes, yes it does.
What about a FE list like this:
•Beasts (Animals, Magical Beasts, Vermin)
•Dragons
•Humanoids (Civilized)
•Oozes
•Otherworldly (Aberrations, Fey)
•Outsiders (Aligned)
•Outsiders (Elemental)
•Plant
•Savages (Uncivilized Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids, Giants)
•Unliving (Undead, Constructs)*Native Outsiders treated as Humanoid and/or Outsider, on an individual basis.
On the one hand, I don't like leaving Oozes and Plants by themselves (cuz who would take them? really?) But on the other hand, a list shorter than 10 options seems too short.
Savages is a politically incorrect term >_>
I will go on the record that unless you are going to run up against 3+ dragons/day on a consistent basis, FE: dragons is a waste of time. You likely aren't going to face a dragon or its ilk much before 8th level, which means you can spend your 1 Instant Enemy on the ranger smite. too, you also aren't all that likely to encounter multiple dragons. When you are, you also generally have the ability to do multiple Instant Enemies to take care of the problem. Dragons are almost always single, boss style encounters, which are perfect Instant Enemy bait. Save your FE for stuff you are going to fight frequently.
If the only thing you care about is having the +Hit/Damage bonus, then this advice is great.
However if you care at all about having the Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival bonuses as well, then Dragons could absolutely be a great FE choice.It's all about the individual game.
Savages is a politically incorrect term >_>
I honestly don't care. :)
If I have offended any Goblins, Orcs, Giants, etc. in real life, please feel free to take it up with me. ;)
I made a fighter (Named Hart) that dual wields shields.
It is amazing... once you get to level 11 and you get to ignore all two weapon fighting penalties and bull rush anyone you hit for free. Seriously entertaining stuff.
Do you? I thought that was a feat, not a class feature. Could I not just make a barbarian or ranger who does the same thing?
He would not be as effective as a fighter who spent every feat and class feature to have a better attack with shields though.
Well, a ranger could get Shield Master by level 6, right? And that ranger could have spells, a host of skills, and other interesting class features. To me, it seems both the fighter and ranger are quite "effective" but perhaps have different advantages. (I don't know much about barbarians for this situation, so I can't comment much on them.)
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The Main Problem with Fighters: They aren't Rangers.
Savages is a politically incorrect term >_>
As the orcs and ogres come down from the hills to pillage and terrorise, political correctness towards the savages has not developed in my worlds.