Gender / Sex Politics in the Real World


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"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

And how is the article, or the parts you quotes contradicting what I said, or has alreayd been said? Not trying to be a douch here, guy but it pretty much boils down to there are a lot of claims (and I don't mean false claims, just claims) but there is rarely, comparitevly any evidence.

I was posing a seperate (rhetorical really) question, in relation to that and other comments, not saying that the question was the focus of the article.

The article doesn't focus on lack of evidence. That's your thing. It doesn't contradict it, I guess. It just doesn't address it. It talks about lots of other reasons for the lack of convictions, none of which require removing due process to address.


meatrace wrote:
Irontruth wrote:


The majority of rapists have access to a consensual sex partner. Is it your claim they just aren't getting enough from their wives that they start looking at their daughters and nieces?

I'm really trying to figure out what this even means.

Access to? As in, they're not in prison or something?
Or do you mean the majority of rapists are in healthy, long-term, sex-positive relationships. Because I can't imagine how you could possibly know that.

Also, most unreported incidents of rape are marital rape.

Did you purposely crop out the stastistics that provided context, or was it an accident?


meatrace wrote:
(warning: the following is not one of my more cogent rants. blame the late hour.)

You know, that was actually pretty cogent.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Anyway, my article on dead suffragettes was so popular, I thought I'd do another:

Heroes of Revolutionary Socialism

Sylvia Pankhurst: Socialite, Suffragette, Founding Leader of the British Communist Party, Close Personal Friend of Haile Selassie?!?


I don't like the moral of your stories, gobbo. All these impressive women, and what happens? Well, they go against the system, of course they die, right?


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Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:

Anyway, my article on dead suffragettes was so popular, I thought I'd do another:

Heroes of Revolutionary Socialism

Sylvia Pankhurst: Socialite, Suffragette, Founding Leader of the British Communist Party, Close Personal Friend of Haile Selassie?!?

A letter from Hellen Keller to Eugene Debs.

No special reason, other than she's a cool chick writing a letter to a union leader, which I figured you'd dig.


Yes! Yours for the revolution, comrade!

Although, I am worried about your infringement on my exclusive rights to link articles from Marxists.org. Prepare to hear from my solicitor.

Also, Madame Sissyl, well-behaved women seldom live forever.

Shadow Lodge

thejeff wrote:
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

And how is the article, or the parts you quotes contradicting what I said, or has alreayd been said? Not trying to be a douch here, guy but it pretty much boils down to there are a lot of claims (and I don't mean false claims, just claims) but there is rarely, comparitevly any evidence.

I was posing a seperate (rhetorical really) question, in relation to that and other comments, not saying that the question was the focus of the article.

The article doesn't focus on lack of evidence. That's your thing. It doesn't contradict it, I guess. It just doesn't address it. It talks about lots of other reasons for the lack of convictions, none of which require removing due process to address.

And I'm not saying it did in any way. I was trying to do a favor and first link the address shown, then when I found that the address was wrong, point it out, and then when I finally found it, did link it, made a comment, both in relation to the article and to other bits of conversation, as well as posted a comment in relation to the whole conversation, not just your part. :)


One for the ladies (and the gay dudes)


Sissyl wrote:
I don't like the moral of your stories, gobbo. All these impressive women, and what happens? Well, they go against the system, of course they die, right?

Yes, and then people recommend a minutes silence in their honour, which is ironic for a bunch of people who were fighting to be heard.


I think they were fighting for the right to vote, but, maybe, instead of a minute's silence they could play this.

Personally, Mr. Shifty, I couldn't care less what they do at Epsom (the sport of kings, right? Vive le Galt!), but I had never heard of her.


Nah, play 'I fought the Law', Clash version. Oi Oi Oi!


Meanwhile, at Ascot...


We're Bikini Kill. And we want REVOLUTION!!! Grrl-style Now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which I have on vinyl. Because I'm cooler than you.


Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:
We're Bikini Kill. And we want REVOLUTION!!! Grrl-style Now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Suck! My! Left! One!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

One for the ladies

"The Dubai-based actor, photographer and poet (SWOON!) was one of the three men who were deported from Saudi Arabia because authorities deemed them 'too handsome' and worried that women would lose their minds, tear their clothing off and throw themselves at their feet."

Happens to me all the time.


I'm going to vomit now.


Sometimes it is perversely comforting to realize that though things might be f&##ed up here in many ways, there are parts of the world that are getting it a lot worse.

Other times it's the opposite of comforting.

Due to the contrast between the laughable story you linked and the nature of that which lies behind it, I'm currently stuck in an unsettling mixture of the two.


Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:

One for the ladies

"The Dubai-based actor, photographer and poet (SWOON!) was one of the three men who were deported from Saudi Arabia because authorities deemed them 'too handsome' and worried that women would lose their minds, tear their clothing off and throw themselves at their feet."

Happens to me all the time.

You are the man.

Those Saudis...no one takes keeping women under complete control to such hard core lengths as they do.


Something vaguely Ricky Martin going on there :p


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kirth Gersen wrote:
I'm going to vomit now.

I pretty much tend towards totally hetero on the Kinsey scale, but I am adding al Gala to the very short list (Al Green, Prince, Iggy Pop, Samnell) of dudes who turn me on.

Goblins do it in the street!


Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
I'm going to vomit now.

I pretty much tend towards totally hetero on the Kinsey scale, but I am adding al Gala to the very short list (Al Green, Prince, Iggy Pop, Samnell) of dudes who turn me on.

Goblins do it in the street!

While completely hetero as well, I feel it would be my duty to perform any requested sexual favors for David Bowie, just as a thank you for being a living god.


David Bowie, OutKast, Clive Owen...

Okay, maybe move me one point over.


Mrs. Gersen says I'm totally gay for Jason Statham. I try to explain that it's just nice to have an actual male action star making movies, after the hiatus left when Ahnuld became the Governator, but she's not buying it.


...Jason Statham...although, he needs to pick better material...


More internecine squabbling on the American left:

Of Privilege, Health Care and T#+$: Angelina Jolie Under the Knife by RUTH FOWLER

Why CounterPunch owes women an apology


The Myths of St. Jolie and Her Acolytes: Breast Panic on the Left by RUTH FOWLER

T@$* Up! The Martyrdom of Angelina Jolie by JULIAN VIGO

Bluff, bluster and b%##$#+% at Counterpunch

Refusing to accept sexism

Upon initial readings, I tend to lean towards Counterpunch, but that might be just because I dislike the ISO, even though they have a nice website.


"Preventive surgery"--if the idea has even the slightest appeal to you, you may not be in touch with what the rest of us call reality.


Calybos1 wrote:

"Preventive surgery"--if the idea has even the slightest appeal to you, you may not be in touch with what the rest of us call reality.

Does your idea of reality not include genetic testing for a predisposition to breast cancer?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

She had 3? relatives die from a nasty form of breast cancer. She has oodles of money for genetic testing, and the test came back with a picture of a guy in black robes wielding a scythe. Why on earth WOULDN"T she take the steps to ensure her health, given that she has the means?

Coming out about it might make the genetic test more popular and thus cheaper. This sort of option should be standard for everyone, just like antibiotics.

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

It's opinions like Calybos1's that make her speaking to the public about her experience so important. Women are discouraged from these kinds of actions even when they have such an incredibly high risk of developing breast cancer by things like that!

It's certainly not the right decision for everyone, but I don't think Angelina was trying to say that either. Simply that it IS an option, and that women should be aware of it, and not shy away from it--and that their "femininity" and their worth as a woman is not tied to their breasts and it should not be perceived as such.

Also, pretty much anything that makes people more aware of breast cancer is a good thing. Catching it early or taking preventative measures when you know it runs in your family is much better than the alternatives.


Fowler's articles read like mediocre forum posts.


Hitdice wrote:
Calybos1 wrote:

"Preventive surgery"--if the idea has even the slightest appeal to you, you may not be in touch with what the rest of us call reality.

Does your idea of reality not include genetic testing for a predisposition to breast cancer?

Most of the women I know have got $3k to plop down for genetic testing...

For Free, Quality Health Care for All!
For Women's Liberation Through Workers Revolution!
Basta Ya! No More Shiznitty Movies Starring Angelina Jolie!


Irontruth wrote:
Fowler's articles read like mediocre forum posts.

Yes, but do they read like your mediocre forum posts or like my mediocre forum posts?


I have a strong genetic predisposition for heart disease.
Guess I should get a preventative transplant.


Neither, your posts are too short and pithy, while I have too high of an opinion about myself.

It was the section where she railed on Jolie's usage of "many" instead of "most", and then ignoring everything else in the paragraph.


meatrace wrote:

I have a strong genetic predisposition for heart disease.

Guess I should get a preventative transplant.

Angelina Jolie's aunt died on Sunday from breast cancer at age 61.

Jolie probably added 20-30 years to her life by doing this.

Liberty's Edge

meatrace wrote:

I have a strong genetic predisposition for heart disease.

Guess I should get a preventative transplant.

If getting a heart transplant didn't involve matching you with a donor and there wasn't a possibility for someone who would actually for sure die without a heart transplant that you were taking an available transplant heart from and if getting a heart transplant would ACTUALLY reduce your already significant chance of getting heart disease (of which I am unsure would be the case)... I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I'm honestly not sure why people feel the need to judge her on her health decision. It impacted upon nobody but herself. She felt it was the right decision. What gives you the right to say she made the wrong decision?

Discuss the article, perhaps--i.e., should we encourage women to have preventative mastectomies in cases like this?--but not Jolie herself.


Irontruth wrote:
meatrace wrote:

I have a strong genetic predisposition for heart disease.

Guess I should get a preventative transplant.

Angelina Jolie's aunt died on Sunday from breast cancer at age 61.

Jolie probably added 20-30 years to her life by doing this.

That's an obscene figure arrived at by anal prestidigitation.

From what I understand, mutations in the BRCA1 gene result a dramatically heightened risk of breast cancer...over the lifetime of the patient. But they're also linked to dramatically heightened risk of ovarian cancer, and unless I missed something, Jolie didn't have an oophorectomy.

It merely seems odd to me that anyone would have such a radical procedure to beat cancer...without even having cancer.

To me, Jolie is an unattractive talentless actress who has a long history of self-destructive narcissism and erratic behavior. This is just one more frighteningly weird thing she's done.


Screening and preventive testing? Good ideas (if you can afford 'em).

Pre-emptively chopping up body parts IN CASE they get infected someday? Deranged; the province of those with more money than sense.


She's stated she plans to undergo that surgery as well in the next couple years.

Her mother died at 56.
Her aunt died at 61.

Her odds of developing breast cancer was 87%.
Her odds of developing ovarian cancer is 50%.
(combined risk of 93.5%)

After having the surgeries she'll be down to a 5% chance.

You're right, I don't have a crystal ball. I'm not a fan of her either, but I don't know what that has to do with the medical choices she has made in consultation with her doctors. It doesn't seem frightening or weird to me. It's also something that her aunt said she would have done had she had access to the test prior to being diagnosed with cancer.

She's been around people dying of these cancers for 10 years, I don't find her behavior surprising at all.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jeff Erwin wrote:
Drejk wrote:


Wasn't Poland the first country in Europe to legalise homosexuality? (in the 1790s, before the French).
Nope, Poland wasn't the first country in Europe to legalize homosexuality because it was never illegal here. Poland never had any native law against homosexuality.
Well, awesome.

Not really. From Wikipedia

A 2010 study published in the newspaper Rzeczpospolita revealed that Poles overwhelmingly oppose gay marriage and the adoption of children by gay couples. 79% of Poles opposed gay marriage, with only 16% in favor. Meanwhile, 93% of Poles opposed the adoption of children by gay couples, with only 5% taking a favourable view.[21] Most Poles also oppose gay parades. A 2008 study revealed that 66% of Poles believe that gay people should not have the right to organize public demonstrations, with 27% taking the opposite view. According to the same study, 69% of Poles believe that gay people should not have the right to be openly gay, with 25% of Poles disagreeing. Meanwhile, Poles are evenly split on the question of sodomy laws. 37% of Poles believe that gay people should have the right to engage in sexual activity, with 37% believing they should not.[22] In 2011 according to a poll by TNS Polska 54% of Poles supported same sex partnerships while 27% supported same sex marriage.[23]

There is no legal recognition of same-sex couples. Article 18 of the Constitution of the Republic of Poland (1997) defines "marriage" as a union of a man and a woman and places it under the protection and care of the Republic of Poland.[8] In late 2003, Polish Senator Maria Szyszkowska proposed civil unions for same-sex couples, calling for "registered partnerships", similar to the French Pacte civil de solidarité (PACS). On 3 December 2004, the Senate (the upper chamber of the Polish Parliament) adopted the Civil Unions project. The legislation had not passed both houses of the Parliament prior to the 2005 parliamentary election and were not revived by the conservative parties which emerged as the majority following that election.

Also....

The major opposition to introducing same-sex marriages or civil unions comes from the Roman Catholic Church, which is quite active politically and holds a considerable degree of influence in the state, significantly more than in other Catholic countries. The nation is 95% Roman Catholic, with 40.4% practicing every week.[16]

While Poland was ahead in certain areas,

There was never any anti-homosexual law under a free Polish government (excluding homosexual prostitution 1932–1969). During the Partitions of Poland (1795–1918) laws prohibiting homosexuality were imposed by the occupying powers. Homosexuality was recognized by law in 1932 with the introduction of a new penal code. The age of consent was set to 15, equal to that of heterosexual partners.[4] Homosexual prostitution was legalized in 1969. Gay people are not banned from military service. Homosexuality was deleted from the list of diseases in 1991.

there are still strong voices of opposition, Poland is a very Catholic country and the church still trumpets the usual lines about any orientation other than straight hetero.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Andrew R wrote:
You might not want to assume what hand we are dealt. I'm tired of people telling me i was dealt aces when that is most certainly not the case. Most of us have had hard lives, im just sick to death of being told that just white male makes me some lucky yuppy that never had to struggle.

On the same token however, you still have to admit that being a white male still gives you considerable economic advantages in the United States, all other considerations being equal. You have greater chances of being hired, of promotion, if you run afoul of the law, you'll generally get lighter sentences than your non-white equivalents, and you're more likely to be approved for early parole. That's plain statistical truth.

What has happened recently however, is that you're no longer the overwhelming voting majority in this country, and that's what has drawn many of the more paranoid members of your species into a "circle the wagons" mode of thought. Up till recently, the Republicans had counted on the "angry white male" as the core constituency of their voting blocks. Last major election however, the numbers of that group came up short.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
What has happened recently however, is that you're no longer the overwhelming voting majority in this country, and that's what has drawn many of the more paranoid members of your species into a "circle the wagons" mode of thought. Up till recently, the Republicans had counted on the "angry white male" as the core constituency of their voting blocks. Last major election however, the numbers of that group came up short.

Talking about human beings (and I really mean ANY human being) as "your species" is despicable.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The easily offended thread is over this way.


The black raven wrote:
LazarX wrote:
What has happened recently however, is that you're no longer the overwhelming voting majority in this country, and that's what has drawn many of the more paranoid members of your species into a "circle the wagons" mode of thought. Up till recently, the Republicans had counted on the "angry white male" as the core constituency of their voting blocks. Last major election however, the numbers of that group came up short.
Talking about human beings (and I really mean ANY human being) as "your species" is despicable.

While I know what you mean, "human beings" really are my species. I wouldn't find that despicable.

just struck me as odd.

Bad choice of words on LazarX's part. I assume he meant "your ilk" or "people who think like you" or some such. "Your species of idiot" kind of slang usage. Bad idea in a post talking about racism.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
meatrace wrote:
And let's take this to a crazy place. Left handed people are the minority. Not so much of a minority that I'd call them "abnormal" (they're like 15-20% of people) but a minority. If I "identify" as right-handed, that insinuates the opposite is left-handed. Left-handed means sinister (literally, look it up). So by saying that I'm right-handed (right means just and good and correct) I'm saying everyone else is sinister.

It's not that uncommon to hear about parents who try to force "right-handedness" on their children by going through extreme methods to do so. The results are pretty much universal, fairly serious nervous disorders as you're essentially going against the way the child's brain is wired.

You might be suprise just how constrictive the definition of "normal" is.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ciretose wrote:

It isn't walking up meekly. You point to Stonewall and Harvey Milk seemingly without actually the history of them.

It's worth noting that just last week there was a hate bias shooting of a gay person by a homophobe within a block of Stonewall itself. While progress has been made, the problems that inspired the Stonewall riots have far from gone away.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TanithT wrote:
If someone is a transman (a man who was born in a female body but who identifies as 100% male and is presenting to the best of his ability as male) and he is attracted to men, he is a gay man..

It's why I tell people that I'm a straight man in a gay marriage.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
meatrace wrote:
And let's take this to a crazy place. Left handed people are the minority. Not so much of a minority that I'd call them "abnormal" (they're like 15-20% of people) but a minority. If I "identify" as right-handed, that insinuates the opposite is left-handed. Left-handed means sinister (literally, look it up). So by saying that I'm right-handed (right means just and good and correct) I'm saying everyone else is sinister.

It's not that uncommon to hear about parents who try to force "right-handedness" on their children by going through extreme methods to do so. The results are pretty much universal, fairly serious nervous disorders as you're essentially going against the way the child's brain is wired.

You might be surprised just how constrictive the definition of "normal" is.

My Father probably is Left-Handed. I say probably because by the time I was born he had experienced over twenty-five years of 'right-handedness'. Effectively he is ambidextrous now.

He is also highly argumentative/confrontational, suffers from PTSD (not just from this, but it really wouldn't surprise me if it was a factor) and will choose the 'in your face' response to a situation, even when he knows that what he wants to achieve will be hindered by it
By this point in our lives, he & I have reached an understanding such that we can 'come back' after our emotions have cooled and come to a more productive consensus between ourselves, but that is after twenty-some years of working to understand & work with each other.
(I'm in my early forties now)

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
This also starts getting into how rape is about power, not sex.

This is one of those catchphrases that gets thrown around that doesn't seem to have much basis in reality.

Who gets assaulted more men or women? Women. Do they have more power? No. They're who men want to have sex with.

What age category of women gets assaulted more? The category with power? No. 80% of victims are under 30.

I don't think its entirely a coincidence that prevalence of rape corresponds with prime child bearing years. It really is about the sex.

No it's still about power, about domination. That's why it happens in prison when both victim and victimiser are heterosexual men in all other interactions. Because one of the way our society which is a rape culture defines manhood is power over women. How Frank is a lesser man because he doesn't bop as many women as Joe but how Mary is a whore for "letting" herself get bopped at all.

It's also about projection because men, being in a position where they continually have to prove their manhood also have to prove they are not Stuart who doesn't seem to be hanging out with women as much as Jerry is. (This can occur even though Stuart himself may be just as hetero as Joe, he's just not that interested in sex) So Frank wanting to make sure that he's perceived as a proper male may check Stuart's activity because Stuart is his college roommate and he does not want to be associated with a "queer". In fact he may even go as far as to threaten Stuart with bodily harm if the latter even "looks at him funny", even though Stuart himself has not exhibited any outwardly gay behavior.

(The names are changed, but the case of Frank and Stuart is one I have personal knowledge of. They were roommates at Demarest Hall at Rutgers College while I lived there and I knew them both well.)

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