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The first trap is a mechanical trap from the rulebooks, the next few traps are my extrapolation of that trap to increase the CR to the maximum possible:

Deathblade Wall Scythe
CR 8; mechanical; touch trigger; manual reset; Atk +16 melee (2d4+8 plus poison, scythe);
poison (deathblade, DC 20 Fortitude save resists, 1d6 Con/2d6 Con); Search DC 24; Disable Device DC 19.

CR = +0 search, +1 attack bonus, +0 disable device, +5 deathblade poison, +2 average damage (13hp of damage) = 8

Deathblade Wall Scythe
CR 13; mechanical; touch trigger; manual reset; Atk +20 melee (2d4+8 plus poison, scythe);
poison (deathblade, DC 20 Fortitude save resists, 1d6 Con/2d6 Con); Search DC 30; Disable Device DC 30.

CR = +2 search, +2 attack bonus, +2 disable device, +5 deathblade poison, +2 average damage (13hp of damage) = 13

Deathblade Wall Scythe
CR 14; mechanical; touch trigger; manual reset; Atk +20 melee (3d6+12 plus poison, scythe);
poison (deathblade, DC 20 Fortitude save resists, 1d6 Con/2d6 Con); Search DC 30; Disable Device DC 30.

CR = +2 search, +2 attack bonus, +2 disable device, +5 deathblade poison, +3 average damage (22.5hp of damage) = 14

Black Lotus Extract Wall Scythe
CR 17; mechanical; touch trigger; manual reset; Atk +20 melee (3d6+12 plus poison, scythe);
poison (black lotus extract, DC 20 Fortitude save resists, 3d6 Con/3d6 Con); Search DC 30; Disable Device DC 30.

CR = +2 search, +2 attack bonus, +2 disable device, +8 black lotus extract poison, +3 average damage (22.5hp of damage) = 17

The only problem is that 6th level spell, Heroes Feast, shuts down poison attacks for twelve hours.

So at some point you have to give up on poison traps and that reduces all of these traps to CR 9 or lower. Although you can compensate by upping the damage number, there is no spell to make you immune to hp damage!


A great battle!

It cracks me up that you have wild stuff like Belts of Battle, Chain Dispel, Anticipate Teleportation and Mass Spell Resistance in use, but what brings Dragotha down is a core rules greater undead slaying arrow. Granted the splitting enhancement is also a bit wild.


I am not sure if I understand your question, but I think Rowyn can't replace Lavinia or Captain Ameilia for long. So Lirith Veldirose is someone who Rowyn can likely replace for longer while only making small mistakes the PCs may or may not notice.


Maure Castle doesn't appear to have any such traps, through it does have some respectable CR 10 traps.

But Paizo did develop some additional higher CR traps for Pathfinder 1E, which is close enough to 3.5 that I will include them. A lot of these were introduced in the various Pathfinder APs.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/t raps/

Crushing Cage Trap (CR 11)
Crushing Stone Trap (CR 15)
Deadly Spear Trap (CR 18)
Falling Bell Trap (CR 12)
Lightning Bolt Gallery Trap (CR 17)
Fireball Trap, Maximized (CR 13)
Meteor Swarm Trap (CR 19)
Room of Darts and Blades (CR 11)
Chain Lightning Trap (CR 15)
Cone of Cold Trap (CR 11)
Desiccation Pulse (CR 11)
Destruction Trap (CR 20)
Empowered Disintegrate Trap (CR 16)
Harm Trap (CR 14)
Necromantic Deathtrap (CR 13)
Skull Blast (CR 14)
Pit Trap, Deathfall (CR 14)
Pit Trap, Footgrabber (CR 12)
Pit Trap, w/Poisoned Spikes (CR 12) (two versions)
Prison of Blades (CR 16)
Floor, Weakened (CR 13) (two versions)
Stairs, Collapsing (CR 14)
Whispering Warden (Summon Monster IX) Trap (CR 13)
Teleportation Circle (CR 13)
Lava Flood (CR 14)


Viconus wrote:

One flaw in the Rowyn plotline is that characters can find her with detect magic spells. Any way around this?

Variation: I'll have Rowyn (disguised as Lavinia) approach the party as a group after the dinner party.

Most parties, including mine, are going to do a systematic search right after Rowyn's very first sabotage, and they are most likely going to catch her right then, especially if they have see invisibility.

I would argue that they can't find Rowyn with just detect magic. They can use it to detect that there is illusion magic in the vicinity when she is nearby and invisible, but they can't use it to locate her. They need see invisibility for that.

Of course, detecting illusion magic means the PCs know someone is around and makes it very likely they can find her at that point. So I highly encourage you to have her rely on disguise self and come up with a way for her to move back and forth between the Sea Wyvern and the Blue Nixie, especially after each sabotage attempt.

Ideally she also needs a secret door that lets her move from the hold to the deck of the ship, but if you put one in the PCs need a fair chance to find it.


And these last few are from the Shackled City adventure path...

Dungeon Magazine #115
p68: Whirling Blades Pit : CR 12 (mechanical)
p68: Grinding Poison Spike Pit : CR 12 (mechanical)
p73: Poisoned Scythe : CR 12 (mechanical)
p78: Egg of Merrshaulk : CR 12 (magical)

Unsurprisingly, high level adventures outside these adventure paths don't include any traps higher than CR 10. Paizo commissioned these high level adventures for their APs, and those authors made the effort to create higher CR traps.

But authors who came up with their own adventures and submitted proposals to Dungeon don't seem to have created high level traps, at least so far in my searching.

Amusingly, the highest level adventure in Dungeon was the adventure to support epic play, designed for 30th level characters, and the only traps are CR 8 warding traps which are regular arcane spells. Likewise, another 20th level Dungeon adventure that supports epic play only had CR 4 warding spells which admits that they are only present to keep 20th level characters on their toes.


As long as I am using Players Handbook 2, we should definitely do the following swap that I should have mentioned last time.

5) Swap out Great Weapon Specialization(bastard sword) for Melee Weapon Master(slashing). This new feat is just better, granting +2 to attack and damage rolls when using the bastard sword or any other slashing weapon. Warduke doesn't give up any damage, and has increased his attack rolls by 2 with the bastard sword.

This also means he could ditch Greater Weapon Focus(bastard sword) for another feat like Riposte, Elusive Target or another tactical feat and still have +1 better to attack rolls with his blade than his current stat block.


I am six years late in answering this question, but I think I have a reasonable answer based on the rules.

I got interested in this because I am building a list of high CR traps found in Dungeon magazine and other sources, and the Iron Chest of Hathruman is a CR 16 magical device trap. So we can value it that way by building it using the d20/3.5 rules.

First a chest is valued at 2gp, but we don't have a value for a masterwork chest. So let's just assume that this masterwork chest is valued somewhere around 25-150gp. We won't use special materials because Iron is in the name. BTW, although it isn't explicitly stated, I consider this chest to be a seven-sided septagon or heptagon because of the seven gargoyle faces.

Each gargoyle face counts as an amazing lock at DC 40, and amazing locks cost 150gp each. So the lock cost is 7 x 150 = 1050gp.

All four of the spells do not have any material components that are a significant expense(just nut shells), so that cost is zero. The trap is automatically reset, which greatly increases the cost in gold and XP for each spell.

Magic Missile costs
500gp x caster level x spell level = 500 x 15 x 1 = 7500gp
40xp x caster level x spell level = 40 x 15 x 1 = 600XP

Bestow Curse costs
500gp x caster level x spell level = 500 x 15 x 4 = 30,000gp
40xp x caster level x spell level = 40 x 15 x 4 = 2400XP

Confusion and Phantasmal Killer are also level 4 spells just like Bestow Curse, so they also cost 30,000gp and 2400XP respectively.

Now anytime the trap is triggered, somewhere between one and seven spells get cast, but the rules don't account for this so we will ignore that aspect.

So assuming 100gp for the masterwork chest itself we have a total of
100 + 1050 + 7500 + 30,000 + 30,000 + 30,000 = 98,650 gp for the chest.
Plus a cost of 600 + 2400 + 2400 + 2400 = 7800XP

So at nearly 100,000 gp, the Iron Chest is easily worth more than half the value of everything in Cold Captain Wyther's treasure chamber.

However, we aren't done. The rules also state that any XP components of the trap should be multiplied by 500gp to account for what the cost would be if you ask a spellcaster to burn their XP as part of crafting this magic device.

7800XP x 500gp/XP = 3,900,000gp

At about ~4 million gold pieces that pretty much makes it an artifact and priceless.


I think my players had the most fun with the dinner party and then interacting with the inhabitants of Renkue. Part of the appeal to them for Renkue, though, was I made it a place where you could dive for pearls, so they had a lot of fun doing pearl diving and using magic to try and find good stuff for the purpose of using those pearls as material components for spell-casting.

If you want the rules I came up for it, you can find them at the link, the section on Sea Wyvern's Wake are pages 106-115. I also expanded the Fort Blackwell encounter as my PCs tracked down who implanted the slaad egg.

http://pandius.com/Threshold_4.pdf

Now also mentioned in the pdf is that there was a word document where some fans of Savage Tide and the Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan expanded the Tamoachan site by converting the entire 1st edition adventure into 3.5 to run as part of Sea Wyvern's Wake. If you want a copy of that word document I can email it to you, as I still have a copy.

The blockade encounter is deliberately easy for 5th level PCs, so it won't take long at your table unless you want to make it harder by beefing up the pirates and giving them a spellcaster or two.

I will get back to you on Rowyn later.


The Age of Worms campaign also had a few...

Dungeon Magazine #133
p73: Advanced Gelatinous Cube : CR 12 (mechanical)

Dungeon Magazine #134
p62: Dispel/Death : CR 12 (magical)
p75: Worm summon : CR 15 (magical)

Dungeon Magazine #135
p69: Mosaic Floor : CR 17 (magical)
p72: Dragonbreath : CR 20 (magical)

I haven't closely examined the mechanics of any of these traps yet although I may do so at a later date. But the general pattern so far that I have seen...

1) Mechanical traps can be pushed up to CR 12 but I haven't seen one pushed higher than that as of yet.
2) The gelatinous cube and worm summon traps are basically a trap that drops a monster encounter onto the PCs if it isn't disabled. The CR of the monster equals the CR of the trap. So that is one way of doing things if you need a trap in a pinch.
3) The magical traps mostly layer additional magical effects onto the trap to keep boosting the CR. The exception to this is the Breath of Dagon from the first post.


I am running a high level 3.5 campaign with a group of five players that are mid to high in terms of optimizing characters. One of them plays an arcane trickster whose optimization is geared toward traps much more than combat.

This worked fine up until about 15th level where we get to the point that 3.5 doesn't have many traps above CR 10. So I am creating this thread as an index of all the traps I can find that are CR 11 or higher for future reference.

Starting with a few from the Savage Tide campaign...

Dungeon Magazine #145
p72: Fusillade of Poisoned Spears : CR 11 (mechanical)
p80: Collapsing Path (into boiling water) : CR 12 (mechanical)

Dungeon Magazine #146
p71: Chain Energy Drain : CR 12 (magical)
p72: Iron Chest of Hathruman : CR 16 (magical)

Dungeon Magazine #150
p84: Breath of Dagon : CR 13 (magical)


I am planning to use Warduke in my 3.5 campaign, and I wanted to give him an update and spruce him up a bit based on his statblock provided in Dungeon Magazine #105.

First, correcting a few minor errors in the stat block...

1) Spell Resistance is 28, not 27, since the helm gives him SR of 10 + character level.

2) Warduke's overall AC and touch AC should be 2 points lower since his magical ceremonial half-plate armor limits the Dexterity bonus Warduke can use. Normal half-plate limits the Dexterity bonus to AC at 0, but the ceremonial armor rules specify that ceremonial half-plate increases that to 1.

3) Warduke's eighteenth feat which is not listed is Cleave. He must have that in order to have Great Cleave which is listed.

4) The feat Spring Attack can't be used with heavy armor, and ceremonial heavy armor counts as heavy armor despite being half the weight. However, since the rules for ceremonial armor state that a wearer still moves at his maximum speed, the intent is probable that Warduke can use Spring Attack in his ceremonial half-plate.

5) Warduke's full attack assumes a -2 penalty when attacking with bastard sword and bashing shield. A +32 to hit is correct for the bastard sword considering it is a +3 weapon and Warduke has both Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus for bastard sword. But he doesn't have those feats for shield bash. So his attack bonus for shield bash should be...

+18 (BAB) +11 (Strength bonus) +1 (bashing magical ability) -2 (two weapon fighting penalty) = +28 to hit

The damage listed for the shield is correct.

With that out of the way, I will include my suggested changes focusing on his shield and swapping out some feats he doesn't need for feats from the Players Handbook 2...

1) If we change Warduke's ceremonial armor from half-plate to banded mail, we can increase his max Dex bonus to +2 instead of +1, and not lose any of his armor bonus. This is because ceremonial armor only grants half the normal armor bonus, so Warduke is only getting a +3 armor bonus from his half-plate. Changing it to ceremonial banded mail still leaves us with a +3 armor bonus but grants him a +2 AC bonus for Dexterity and reduces his Armor check penalty to -3. So first change is Warduke is wearing +3 moderate fortification adamantine ceremonial spiked banded mail.

2) Swap out the feat Quick Draw for Shield Specialization(heavy steel shield). Warduke isn't carrying a lot of throwing weapons, so he doesn't need Quick Draw. This new feat gives Warduke an extra +1 to his shield armor bonus. So his +5 bashing heavy steel shield gives him a +8 armor bonus instead of +7. This new feat is also a prereq for a couple of more PH2 feats we are going to give him.

3) Swap out the feat Two-Weapon Fighting for Agile Shield Fighter. This feat is just the equivalent of Two-Weapon fighting but only for shields, giving Warduke a -2 penalty when attacking with both sword and shield. So this doesn't change any stats it just means he won't fight with sword and dagger.

4) Swap out Spring Attack for Shield Ward. This is the big one, granting Warduke his shield bonus to his touch AC, as well as his rolls for resisting bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun and trip attempts. Spring Attack isn't very useful at high levels and at high levels touch attacks are potentially deadly, so this is much more useful.

So now with these new feats, and his +3 moderate fortification adamantine ceremonial spiked banded mail, Warduke has

touch AC = 10 +2 (max Dexterity bonus) +3 (ring of protection deflection bonus) +7 (Shield Ward combined with +5 magical heavy steel shield) +1 (Shield Specialization) = 23 AC

regular AC = 23 +3 (ceremonial banded mail armor bonus) +3 (magic bonus) +5 (natural armor bonus granted from helm = 34 AC

A few other changes to consider would be...

1) Give him a cloak of resistance to beef up his saves.
2) Some magic to give him freedom of movement.
3) Great Cleave is not likely to be useful against high level PCs, so it could be swapped out for the feat Elusive Target which lets Warduke negate Power Attack against an opponent and perform a couple of other maneuvers. Or swapped out for Lightning Reflexes or Iron Will.
4) Another possible feat to give him is Riposte, which he can use with Combat Expertise to give him one attack of opportunity a round against an opponent that misses him in melee.


NPC Dave wrote:

Some more important fixes! Vzorthys' supernatural ability Baleful Flash is listed as a DC 34 save. His eye rays are listed as a DC 27 save. According to the monster entry for Eye of the Deep in Lords of Madness, the baseline save for Baleful Flash is DC 22 and is Constitution based, while the baseline save for eye rays is DC 18 and is Charisma based.

Vzorthys has a 12 point increase in Constitution over the baseline, from 18 to 30, and a 2 point increase in Charisma over the baseline, from 15 to 17. He also has the feat Ability focus for both Baleful Flash and eye rays.

So Baleful Flash should be 22 (baseline) + 6 (Con increase) + 2 (Ability focus) = DC 30 Fortitude save.

While eye rays should be 18 (baseline)+ 1 (Cha increase) + 2 (Ability focus) = DC 21 Reflex/Will save.

So I just reviewed this again, and realized that the baseline eye of the deep from Lords of Madness already has the feat Ability Focus for the Baleful Flash only.

That means the Baleful Flash DC should be 20 (baseline) + 6 (Con increase) + 2 (Ability focus) = DC 28 Fortitude save for Vzorthys.

The eye rays are still DC 21, the baseline eye of the deep does not have Ability Focus for the eye rays.


Location G5 on the ship The Anger, page 69, where it explains what happens should the Demogorgon statue explode:

"All creatures in the room must make a DC 15 Reflex save or fall through the hole, plummeting 60 feet to the deck of the Fortitude below (area E1)."

The Anger is only 40 feet up the tree, while the Two-Faced Wretch is the ship that is 60 feet up. So this isn't a 60 foot drop, it is at most a 40 foot drop, and even less than that considering the PCs are below deck on the Anger and if they fall the deck of the Fortitude is above ground level. At most this is a 20-30 foot drop, so you can adjust falling damage accordingly.

I didn't catch this until after one of my PCs fell through the hole...oh well 17hp of damage is still less than the maximum on 3d6!


Viconus wrote:

My players just finished with the caves of Kraken's Cove, and I think it makes a lot more sense for them to take the Sea Wyvern now than to come back later. After all, if the Crimson Fleet is coming there, won't they be interested in it?

But how can that be done if only one of my players knows how to sail? They arrived on a separate manned ship, so I suppose they could hire away a few sailors from there. My players also don't know who owns the ship and don't want to annoy a captain of the Crimson fleet.

Separate question - one person in the party is a ranger with a named enemy of animals, against whom he gets bonus damage and to hit. I think his idea was that it should be used toward dinosaurs - are dinosaurs just a type of animal?

The Crimson Fleet won't plausibly know Kraken's Cove is destroyed for at least a couple of weeks...as they don't use magic to monitor remote hideouts and no other ships from their fleet will arrive soon. So you can give your players some time.

If you want rules for getting the ship back to Sasserine using Profession Sailor checks, the information can be found on page 87 of the 3.5 book Stormwrack. If the player with Profession Sailor has at least 3 skill ranks he is capable of directing the ship but a real expert has 8 ranks or more which is probably beyond him at this point. On page 97 it tells you that you need at least 7 people to handle the caravel, preferably all 7 have at least 1 skill rank in Profession Sailor. The DC checks for getting things done with a smaller crew is on page 87 and 88.

And to answer your last question, yes, dinosaurs all have the animal type, you should find Animal listed in their stat blocks near the top. As your ranger has favored enemy(animal) he will get the +2 damage bonus against them. I don't think it gives him an attack bonus in 3.5 or Pathfinder 1E. If you are playing the full campaign you want your ranger to always select evil outsider to maximize his bonus in the long term starting at level 5.


NPC Dave wrote:

Moving on to Cold Captain Wyther himself...

His attack entry lists the numbers with 3 points of power attack, but that is a mistake. Below are the numbers without any power attack.

Attacking with the icy burst cold iron bastard sword =
+15(BAB) + 8(Strength bonus) + 2(Melee Weapon Mastery feat) + 3(magic bonus) + 1(Weapon Focus) – 4(Two-Weapon Fighting) = +25 to hit

Attacking with the +1 frost cold iron dagger =
+15(BAB) + 8(Strength bonus) + 2(Melee Weapon Mastery feat) + 1(magic bonus) -4(Two-weapon fighting) = +22 to hit

The damage number for the dagger look a bit off as well, so lets keep the +24 and +21 to hit from the stat block and do a 1 point power attack and go through the math for both weapons.

Damage with icy burst cold iron bastard =
1d10 + 8(Strength bonus) + 2(Melee Weapon Mastery feat) + 2(Weapon Specialization) + 3(magic bonus) + 1(Power attack bonus) = 1d10+16 damage (plus all the extra stuff correctly listed in the stat block)

Damage with the frost cold iron dagger when slashing =
1d4 + 4(half Strength bonus) + 2(Melee Weapon Mastery feat) + 1(magic bonus) + 1(Power attack bonus) = 1d4+8 damage (plus all the extra stuff correctly listed in the stat block)

If, for any reason, Captain Wyther has to do piercing damage with the dagger, he does 1d4+6 damage with the dagger on a 1 point power attack due to his Melee Weapon Mastery feat not being in play. Oh, and his attack roll would drop by -2 as well.

I forgot his poison sting attack. The attack number is correct for a 3 point power attack (+15 to hit) but the damage roll is incorrect. It should be 1d6 + 4 (half his strength) + 3 (Power attack) so he would hit at +15 for 1d6+7 damage with 3 points of power attack.

Without any power attack, Captain Wyther attacks with his stinger =
+15(BAB) + 8(Strength bonus) – 5(secondary attack) = +18 to hit


William Bryan wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
William Bryan wrote:

Has anyone noticed that Redfang's attack roll bonus is completely off. His BAB is +20 and his STR is 50 which equates to a +20 totaling to a +40 and that's not counting his feats Improved Natural Attack (bite and claw).

Is there something I'm missing?

I believe that Red Fang's stat block incorporates a Power Attack, which is probably mentioned in there somewhere.

I thought about that. The only thing that was missing for me about that was that they didn't list Power Attack under it's Feats. It makes sense now.

Improved Natural Attack: only adds a bonus to damage....got it. Thanks.

Converting the big baddies Pathfinder style gets more complex as you get higher in level I've noticed. It's worth it though.

I happened to stumble across this while researching the final adventures. Just in case anyone else sees this, Redfang has a +32 attack instead of +40 because of his Colossal size giving him a -8 penalty to hit. He doesn't have Power Attack. Size penalties tripped me up as well in my Scuttlecove thread.


NPC Dave wrote:

Taking into account my previous mistakes, I think I have the Orlath attacks fixed below, as I do think here is a mistake in the Dungeon stat block.

The orlath is listed as hitting at +22 with its +1 scimitar attacks. But taking into account Weapon Finesse(which for Orlath includes scimitars thanks to Slashing Blades(Ex)), Multiweapon Fighting and Weapon Focus(scimitar), the numbers should be

+1 scimitar attacks = +16 (BAB) + 7 (Dex bonus) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 1 (magic bonus) - 4 (multi-weapon attack penalty) - 1 (size penalty) = +20 to hit

Another big oops, the stat block for Orlath is correct after all with regard to attack numbers. I forgot that having a light weapon in the off-hand further reduces the attack penalty from -4/-4 to -2/-2. With the slashing blades extraordinary ability treating scimitars as light weapons, the Orlath math works out as follows...

+1 scimitar attacks = +16 (BAB) + 7 (Dex bonus) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 1 (magic bonus) - 2 (multi-weapon attack penalty taking into account Multiweapon Fighting and Slashing Blades) - 1 (size penalty) = +22 to hit


NPC Dave wrote:

Taking into account my previous mistakes, I think I have the Orlath attacks fixed below, as I do think here is a mistake in the Dungeon stat block.

The orlath is listed as hitting at +22 with its +1 scimitar attacks. But taking into account Weapon Finesse(which for Orlath includes scimitars thanks to Slashing Blades(Ex)), Multiweapon Fighting and Weapon Focus(scimitar), the numbers should be

+1 scimitar attacks = +16 (BAB) + 7 (Dex bonus) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 1 (magic bonus) - 4 (multi-weapon attack penalty) - 1 (size penalty) = +20 to hit

One more fix for the Orlath, his secondary eleven +1 scimitar attacks are (1d8+3 damage plus 1 vile) each, not the (1d8+2 damage plus 1 vile) listed. He gets half his strength bonus (+2) and magic bonus (+1).


Just get rid of mind-affecting immunity and don't replace it with something else. The savage template is a bit overpowered for just +1 CR, so this change should be fine. If you feel the need, you can give the savage template a +2 save bonus to charm/enchantment.

Level 3 is the expected start point for the adventure. The assumption is that the PCs have a lot of healing potions that they recovered from the Lotus Dragons in the first adventure.


Moving on to Cold Captain Wyther himself...

His attack entry lists the numbers with 3 points of power attack, but that is a mistake. Below are the numbers without any power attack.

Attacking with the icy burst cold iron bastard sword =
+15(BAB) + 8(Strength bonus) + 2(Melee Weapon Mastery feat) + 3(magic bonus) + 1(Weapon Focus) – 4(Two-Weapon Fighting) = +25 to hit

Attacking with the +1 frost cold iron dagger =
+15(BAB) + 8(Strength bonus) + 2(Melee Weapon Mastery feat) + 1(magic bonus) -4(Two-weapon fighting) = +22 to hit

The damage number for the dagger look a bit off as well, so lets keep the +24 and +21 to hit from the stat block and do a 1 point power attack and go through the math for both weapons.

Damage with icy burst cold iron bastard =
1d10 + 8(Strength bonus) + 2(Melee Weapon Mastery feat) + 2(Weapon Specialization) + 3(magic bonus) + 1(Power attack bonus) = 1d10+16 damage (plus all the extra stuff correctly listed in the stat block)

Damage with the frost cold iron dagger when slashing =
1d4 + 4(half Strength bonus) + 2(Melee Weapon Mastery feat) + 1(magic bonus) + 1(Power attack bonus) = 1d4+8 damage (plus all the extra stuff correctly listed in the stat block)

If, for any reason, Captain Wyther has to do piercing damage with the dagger, he does 1d4+6 damage with the dagger on a 1 point power attack due to his Melee Weapon Mastery feat not being in play. Oh, and his attack roll would drop by -2 as well.

Two other errata...

It lists a cloak of protection +4 in his possessions, but that should be a cloak of resistance +4. His saving throws reflect that +4 bonus already.

Lastly, the Fortitude save for his Poison ability should be DC 10 + 8(half his HD) + 6(Constitution bonus) = DC 24, not the DC 21 listed. It would be DC 21 if he wasn't wearing bracers of health +6 but as far as I know the enhancement bonus to ability scores from magic items are always counted in the DC saves for all special abilities. Someone correct me if I am wrong on that.


Taking into account my previous mistakes, I think I have the Orlath attacks fixed below, as I do think here is a mistake in the Dungeon stat block.

The orlath is listed as hitting at +22 with its +1 scimitar attacks. But taking into account Weapon Finesse(which for Orlath includes scimitars thanks to Slashing Blades(Ex)), Multiweapon Fighting and Weapon Focus(scimitar), the numbers should be

+1 scimitar attacks = +16 (BAB) + 7 (Dex bonus) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 1 (magic bonus) - 4 (multi-weapon attack penalty) - 1 (size penalty) = +20 to hit

Bite attacks are listed correctly, but if you want the math...

bite attacks = +16 (BAB) +7 (Dex bonus) -5 (multi-attack penalty) -1 (size penalty) = +17 to hit

I might bump up the orlath a couple of HD to 18 which would get his scimitar attacks back up to +22. That does give him a +1 bonus to all saves and an extra feat. Which should probably be Weapon Specialization for the scimitars. This bumps his CR up to 16.


NPC Dave wrote:

p 64 Captain Longshanks Le'Shiv and the other lemorian pirate captains...two minor fixes...

Third minor fix, under Atk Options, add smite good 1/day (+10 damage)


NPC Dave wrote:

Page 52-53: Some updates of the Leech's stat block. The attack numbers are slightly off, I think that is due to the error in the Monster Manual for the Yuan-ti Abomination attack rolls there, which failed to take into account the masterwork weapon. Building from the Monster Manual entry without noticing that will throw things off.

For melee, the Leech is

main melee weapon: +18(BAB) +8(Strength) +1(masterwork) = +27.

So melee with masterwork scimitar is +27/+22/+17/+12

bite attack: +18(BAB) +8(Strength) -5(secondary weapon) = +21.

For ranged,

+3 composite longbow: +18(BAB) +2(Dexterity) +3(magic longbow) +2(greater bracers of archery) = +25

So +25/+20/+15/+10, and all these are a further +1 if within 30 feet thanks to Point Blank Shot.

And damage for the longbow is
2d6 +8(Strength) +3(magic longbow) +1(greater bracers of archery)

So 2d6+12 damage and another +1 for damage if within 30 feet thanks to Point Blank Shot.

That also means a -1 Size modifier on attack rolls for the Leech, who is a Large creature. The Monster Manual entry was correct.

So masterwork scimitar is +26/+21/+16/+11 and bite attack is +20. For the composite long bow is +24/+19/+14/+9 and a +1 bonus if within 30 feet due to Point Blank Shot.


NPC Dave wrote:

p73-74 The Glad encounter has a few minor errors.

The Yuan-ti anathema was copied from the original fiend folio entry that had a mistake in it. With a BAB of +16 and a Strength of 27, the anathema attacks with the +1 unholy wounding falchion as follows:

+16 (BAB) + 8 (Strength bonus) +1 (magic bonus) = +25

Also, a falchion sized for a Huge creature is 3d6, not 2d8 in 3.5 D&D. It may have been 2d8 in the 3.0 Player's Handbook, I am not sure. In any case, it is a two-handed weapon and does a damage bonus of 1.5 the Strength bonus of the wielder.

Bite attacks are +16 (BAB) + 8 (Strength bonus) - 2 (secondary attack with multiattack feat) = +22

So in melee its full attack is +1 unholy wounding falchion +25/+20/+15 (3d6+13 +2d6 against good creatures) and 6 bites +22 (1d8+4 plus poison)

Uh-oh, I totally forgot the size modifier penalty for the attack rolls (-2 for a Huge creature). So the Fiend Folio and Dungeon Magazine #146 are correct on the attack rolls.

+23/+18/+13 on the falchion, and +20 on the bite attacks.


p73-74 The Glad encounter has a few minor errors.

The Yuan-ti anathema was copied from the original fiend folio entry that had a mistake in it. With a BAB of +16 and a Strength of 27, the anathema attacks with the +1 unholy wounding falchion as follows:

+16 (BAB) + 8 (Strength bonus) +1 (magic bonus) = +25

Also, a falchion sized for a Huge creature is 3d6, not 2d8 in 3.5 D&D. It may have been 2d8 in the 3.0 Player's Handbook, I am not sure. In any case, it is a two-handed weapon and does a damage bonus of 1.5 the Strength bonus of the wielder.

Bite attacks are +16 (BAB) + 8 (Strength bonus) - 2 (secondary attack with multiattack feat) = +22

So in melee its full attack is +1 unholy wounding falchion +25/+20/+15 (3d6+13 +2d6 against good creatures) and 6 bites +22 (1d8+4 plus poison)

The anathema in the adventure is listed as Caster Level 16 for its spell-like abilities. However, the fiend folio gives the anathema Caster Level 20 for SLAs. Which you choose is most important for its 1/day blasphemy since 16th level PCs will be weakened in addition to being dazed if you choose the higher CL.

Lastly, the text states that "A group of six Seventh Coil assassins stay here with their leader" but the stat line only lists 3 Seventh Coil Assassins. Unfortunately the EL 19 listed for the encounter doesn't help determine which is correct since one CR 18 creature with either 3 CR 11 or 6 CR 11 creatures is still EL 19. I will probably go with four assassins residing with the leader.


p 64 Captain Longshanks Le'Shiv and the other lemorian pirate captains...two minor fixes...

First, caster level for the spell-like abilities should be 10th level, not 8th. Second, the Fortitude save for the poison attack is

10 + 1/2 HD (5) + Constitution bonus (3) = DC 18, not the DC 17 listed.

Personally, I am beefing these guys up by adding a level of rogue, fighter and scarlet corsair.


NPC Dave wrote:
Page 65: Vzorthys, the fiendish eye of the deep, has an Initiative of +4, not the +5 listed.

Some more important fixes! Vzorthys' supernatural ability Baleful Flash is listed as a DC 34 save. His eye rays are listed as a DC 27 save. According to the monster entry for Eye of the Deep in Lords of Madness, the baseline save for Baleful Flash is DC 22 and is Constitution based, while the baseline save for eye rays is DC 18 and is Charisma based.

Vzorthys has a 12 point increase in Constitution over the baseline, from 18 to 30, and a 2 point increase in Charisma over the baseline, from 15 to 17. He also has the feat Ability focus for both Baleful Flash and eye rays.

So Baleful Flash should be 22 (baseline) + 6 (Con increase) + 2 (Ability focus) = DC 30 Fortitude save.

While eye rays should be 18 (baseline)+ 1 (Cha increase) + 2 (Ability focus) = DC 21 Reflex/Will save.

Also, with a BAB of +18, Vzorthys attacks with his claws at +18 - 2 size + 11 (Str bonus) = +27 to hit.

His constriction damage when grappling is still incorrectly listed for the baseline Eye of the Deep, Vzorthys should do 3d6+11 damage when constricting.


I wanted to thank all of you who contributed your ideas to this thread. And especially thank those of you whose images and video are still available on the internet to see over a decade later.

I am currently running this adventure and I was planning to build my own version of the Crimson Fleet base. But this crisis hit just before I was about to start the physical work. My players and I decided we would switch to online, and I have been running the game with roll20. So I intend to use the images and video to show my players the size and scale of the Crimson Fleet base, while conducting the battles on the map boards provided with the adventure.

Thanks again!


This version of Liamae starts with her having no possessions as an enslaved thrall working at the Birdcage. Her skill points were incorrect in both incarnations listed in Dragon Magazine, so I have fixed and updated them to meet the prereqs for mystic theurge.

Like Tolin above, she is built to be a supporting character if the PCs bring her along in the adventure after rescuing her. I swapped out her feat Iron Will for Lightning Reflexes as a nod to her experience on the Blue Nixie in being struck by lightning, and because her Will save is plenty high even without it.

Liamae Teslikaria CR 9
Female human sorcerer 4/favored soul 4/mystic theurge 1
CG Medium humanoid
Init +2; Senses Listen +1, Spot +1
AC 12, touch 12, ff 10;
hp 50 (9HD)
Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +11
Spd 30ft
Melee mwk dagger +5 (1d4-1/19-20)
Ranged mwk shortbow +9 (1d6/x3)
BAB +5; Grp +4
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 18

Feats: Alertness, Brew Potion, Great Fortitude, Greater Spell Focus(enchantment), Lightning Reflexes, Martial Weapon Proficiency(shortbow), Spell Focus(enchantment), Weapon Focus(shortbow),
Skills: Bluff +7, Concentration +8, Knowledge(arcana) +6, Knowledge(religion) +6, Spellcraft +3

Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 5th, +7 ranged touch)
2nd (5/day) – Tasha’s hideous laughter (DC 18), touch of idiocy (DC 18)
1st (7/day) – charm person (DC 17), hypnotism (DC 17), magic missile, shield
0 (6/day) – acid splash, daze (DC 16), detect magic, light, prestidigitation, read magic

Favored Soul Spells Known (CL 5th, +7 ranged touch)
2nd (5/day) – eagle’s splendor, hold person (DC 15), spiritual weapon
1st (7/day) – bless, command (DC 14), cure light wounds, divine favor, shield of faith
0 (6/day) – cure minor wounds, detect poison, guidance, mending, resistance, virtue
Possessions: None


My PCs are rescuing some of the Jade Ravens, so I updated a couple of their NPC stat blocks from 7th level as detailed in Dungeon Magazine #143 to 9th level.

Tolin Kientai CR 9
Male human ranger 3/fighter 6
LN Medium humanoid
Init +6; Senses Listen +7, Spot +7
AC 19, touch 13, ff 17; Dodge, Mobility
hp 58 (9HD)
Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +8
Spd 30ft

Melee +1 short sword +14/+9(d6+6/19-20) or +1 short sword +12/+7(d6+6/19-20) and +1 short sword +12(d6+4/19-20)

Ranged mwk composite longbow +13/+8(1d8+5/x3)

BAB +9; Grp +12
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 12
Wild empathy +6
Feats: Dodge, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Mobility, Track, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus(short sword), Weapon Focus(composite longbow), Weapon Specialization(composite longbow), Weapon Specialization(short sword)

Skills: Handle Animal +8, Intimidate +5, Knowledge(nature) +5, Knowledge(dungeoneering) +5, Listen +8, Ride +9, Spot +8, Survival +8 (+10 nature or underground)

Possessions: potion of cure moderate wounds, potion of haste, +1 chain shirt, 2 +1 shortswords, masterwork composite longbow(+3 Str), cloak of resistance +1, 56 gp, ioun stone (+1 insight bonus to AC)


Page 52-53: Some updates of the Leech's stat block. The attack numbers are slightly off, I think that is due to the error in the Monster Manual for the Yuan-ti Abomination attack rolls there, which failed to take into account the masterwork weapon. Building from the Monster Manual entry without noticing that will throw things off.

For melee, the Leech is

main melee weapon: +18(BAB) +8(Strength) +1(masterwork) = +27.

So melee with masterwork scimitar is +27/+22/+17/+12

bite attack: +18(BAB) +8(Strength) -5(secondary weapon) = +21.

For ranged,

+3 composite longbow: +18(BAB) +2(Dexterity) +3(magic longbow) +2(greater bracers of archery) = +25

So +25/+20/+15/+10, and all these are a further +1 if within 30 feet thanks to Point Blank Shot.

And damage for the longbow is
2d6 +8(Strength) +3(magic longbow) +1(greater bracers of archery)

So 2d6+12 damage and another +1 for damage if within 30 feet thanks to Point Blank Shot.

Next, both Touch of Fear(Su) and Hypnosis(Sp) are Thrall of Demogorgon abilities which have a DC save based on both thrall class level AND Charisma bonus.

So the DC will save for these two abilities are 10 + 6(thrall level) +5(Charisma bonus) = +21

So these two abilities are DC 21 Will saves not the DC 16 Will save listed.

Lastly, two months after this Dungeon magazine issue came out, Dragon Magazine #357 published an updated 3.5 version of Thrall of Demogorgon. The only difference between the new version and the original from Book of Vile Darkness is that the Will save has a Good progression rather than the Poor progression. So if you wish you can update the Leech who gets an upgrade to his Will save from +19 to +22.


Page 65: Vzorthys, the fiendish eye of the deep, has an Initiative of +4, not the +5 listed.


I am only just starting this adventure so I may post more at a later date.

But this adventure carried no Affiliation Award side bar, and my PCs still need some assistance with building up their scores, so I went ahead and created the following.

Each of the following criterions grants an affiliation score modifier of +1.

Church of the Whirling Fury, The Dawn Council, Emerald Crest, and The Scarlet Brotherhood:
Destroy the Crimson Fleet pirate base and terminate Cold Captain Wyther with extreme prejudice

Emerald Crest:
Rescue the pirate captain Harliss Javell and recruit her into the Emerald Crest.

The Seekers:
Recover the Athrinoord Stone found in location H4 and donate it to a Seeker Chapterhouse.

Witchwardens:
Recover a serpent symbol and donate it to the Witchwardens in Sasserine for study.

Zelkarune’s Horns:
Capture the fiendish eye of the deep and return it to Sasserine alive for the arena, or slay the yuan-ti anathema and bring its corpse back to Sasserine as a trophy. Accomplishing both tasks nets PCs with this affiliation a +2 to their score.


Better late than never!

Page 64: As a maurezhi demon, Onailati has no spell-like ability or magic to teleport. If he cannot escape on foot, a skinwalker might escape to warn the temple of the PCs approach. You could give Onailati a one-use item to teleport or simply allow the PCs to make an initial surprise attack on the temple should they prevent any of the ambushers from escaping.

Page 68: “The two secret doors on the balconies are of stone”

This is incorrect. The secret door leading to Location 6 is, indeed, up at the balcony level. However, the secret door leading to Location 8 is not at the balcony level but is, instead, at base ground level with respect to Location 3. It is in the wall underneath the balcony.

Page 68: Chief Achcauhtli’s bashing light wooden shield has a base damage of d6, not d8. Thus, he does 1d6+3 hp of damage when striking with the shield. Also, with his Multiattack feat his natural weapons (two claws and a bite) are hitting at a -2 penalty. They are unaffected by his two-weapon fighting style since these natural attacks are the lion/rakasta skin part of the chieftain skinwalker rather than the human part of him. Thus, with a BAB of +17 and a Strength bonus of +5, his attacks with natural weapons should be 17+5-2 = +20, not the +19 which is listed.

Page 69: “Once four skinwalkers are slain, the survivors howl in rage - this din is enough to call the Chieftain, his ape animal companion and the second acolyte into the battle.”

Skinwalkers share an empathic communal consciousness while they are within sixty feet of each other as a supernatural ability (see page 84). Therefore, making any noise at all is unnecessary. From the very first round of combat, the chieftain and acolyte can begin prepping for the battle just in case by casting spells, and know exactly how many of their fellows have fallen as the battle progresses.

Page 77: The fiendish template applied to a kopru behemoth increases the creature’s CR by +2, not +1. So, the taboo temple kopru are CR 12.


There is the adventure set in Sasserine which was not part of the Savage Tide campaign, called War of the Wielded in Dungeon Magazine #149. That is designed for 5th level NPCs and will work well for 5 4th level PCs.


I don't think they ever got permission, but I also don't think they check this area of the messageboards often, so I would recommend emailing customer service and asking them.


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Toys R Us isn't going away, at least not anytime soon. Yes, they declared bankruptcy, and that is because of the ridiculous amount of debt they have incurred, $5.2 billion.

But they are doing chapter 11 bankruptcy in order to load up on $2 billion more debt to keep going. Will they get it? Of course they will, big corporation debt is where big money is made. Deficits don't matter as long as you can keep borrowing more money.

Will this catch up and destroy the company eventually? Of course it will. But it won't be this year, and it won't be next year. You will still be able to buy Christmas presents at Toys R Us in 2018.


I found the problem originated with X1 The Isle of Dread, which didn’t specify the elevation levels between dungeon levels except to state that the drop from location 8 to location 33 in the Savage Tide Taboo Temple(corresponding to locations 34 and 40 in X1) was 1d6hp of falling damage, thus implying a ten foot drop. But it had the same error, as the staircase on dungeon Level 1 is present while the two locations on dungeon Level 2 are at the same elevation. In fact, the error is even worse in X1, as the staircase itself would be enough to go from dungeon Level 1 to dungeon Level 2 if there is only a ten foot elevation between those two levels.

So to fix this, here are my recommended elevation levels for each level of the dungeon, where a 0 ft elevation level corresponds to the water level on the surrounding lake.

65 foot elevation level : Locations 4-7, as well as the hiding place in the wall behind the carved face above the eastern passage at location 3.

50 foot elevation level : Locations 3 and 8, as well as the highest shelf on the eastern edge of location 2. This means the drop from location 8 to location 33 is about 46 feet.

30 foot elevation level : Locations 9 through 24. This means the drop from location 10 to location 31 is about 34 feet.

10 foot elevation level : Locations 26 and 27 and the raised platform in the passage of Location 34. These are the highest elevation points for Dungeon Level 2.

4 foot elevation level : Locations 33 and 37 as well as the passage north of location 33 which gradually slopes down to a level of -2 foot elevation at the north end by the door, which is why the rat holes in the passage don’t flood these areas.

-2 foot elevation level : Locations 28 and 34.

-4 foot elevation level : Location 29, 31, 32, 35, 38, 39 and the passage section south of the platform near Location 34.

-8 foot elevation level : Location 30.

The well opening on Dungeon Level 2 at location 36 drops 65 feet to a pool of boiling water, which connects to dungeon Level 3 by a fifteen foot long U shape tunnel that extends down, across and up. This pool on Level 3 is on a terrace, and we can assume that terrace is roughly five feet high. So the base elevation for the lowest level of stable ground in location 40 of Level 3 would be about -69 feet or approximately 70 feet below the lake level.


In Dungeon Magazine #145, the main chamber at location 3 and surrounding environs are a bit confusing in matching up the text with the map.

Location 1 is at water level and the water level roughly corresponds to Level 2. Location 2 has the stairs which ascend and thus we get into the complex and enter the main chamber at location 3 which has the stairs and balconies to either side and an exit passage to the east along with two secret doors.

One secret door leads to location 6, which is the lookout position keeping an eye on the lake and location 2. The other secret door leads to location 8. My confusion is the following sentence in Location 3...

"The two secret doors on the balconies..."

I don't think the secret doors are actually at the balcony level. Location 8 is a room with a steep stairs in the nw corner which lead up to what I presume is the cubby hole where someone can sit and overlook Location 3 from the hollow face in the wall above the eastern passage. Putting the secret door at the balcony level means you wouldn't need a steep staircase presumably. Unless the eastern passage way opens at the balcony level of Location 3 instead of ground level at Location 3. But that doesn't seem right as the balconies seem to end rather than connect to the east passage.

Location 6 could be up higher at the balcony level, but seems to make sense to open at the ground floor of location 3.

Location 9 also implies that Location 10 is further below Location 8. "A flight of steps descends to...a makeshift wall."

That means that you walk out of location 3 and descend stairs...and Location 10 is 20 feet above Location 31 which is partially flooded, while Location 8 is 20 feet above Location 33 and room 33 is dry.

Am I correct?


I noticed that for location 13 in this adventure, you can't give the players the image on page 72.

Because it has the solution on it!

Helpful for the DM to visualize, terrible to print out and hand to the players.


Snowblind wrote:
Dare I ask, what prompted the ban on politics? Was it anything in particular?

Trump.


Hitdice wrote:
What in God's name are you talking about? How is a Presidential Pardon remotely connected to the investigation of the Trump campaign?

The presidential pardon is a major power of the executive branch and can be used to end an investigation, stop a trial, or release a prisoner. Ordering an investigation to be stopped is a lesser power of the executive branch.


Coriat wrote:

One, that story is eight or nine months old and the info has gone bad. I'm sure that the value of that guy's pesos went down significantly after the election, when the peso fell from 18.5 to the dollar to 22 to the dollar - down almost 4 - but as of this writing the peso is back up to 18.21 to the dollar - up 0.29 compared to pre-election. The article you linked suggests that the peso fall was a major contributor to the fallen balance sheet, and that has reversed itself.

The other cited factor was a drop in international stocks. I can't say what stocks this guy might own, but so far the Mexican stock market has made up all its post-election losses and more.

Addendum to the first point - after the post above I realized that there was a simpler way to go about it than looking at raw economic data. The Forbes article you linked cites a bloomberg billionaires list as its source.

I went and looked at that list, which as of this writing shows this guy at +$11.6 billion (+23%) year-to-date, suggesting that whatever tide receded for your $5.8 billion loss has rolled back in and more.

Two, so one billionaire loses money to other billionaires. At some point during a pre-election discussion I remarked to you that I thought you were mistaking a factional struggle within the elite for a struggle against the elite. This doesn't convince me otherwise.

I do remember that and I think it is time to take a step back and review that with what we knew then compared to what we know now.

At the time I decided to support Trump, I did so knowing there was a great deal of uncertainty in what he might actually do should he win office. He is unpredictable and impulsive, he will say one thing and then do another.

I suspected he had good intentions but for all I knew once he got into office he might get bored and delegate everything to Pence, or he might get cozy with the establishment and not change anything, especially if the press started feeding his ego and praising him.

But one thing I did know is that if Trump won it would upset the applecart and a lot of very rich people were going to see some serious disruption. I couldn't know for sure if Trump was really going to build a wall, but I did know that if he won some billionaires were going to be feeling some pain. So I emphasized that when I argued for Trump.

Now with Trump in office and the battle currently being waged, I have a better view of Trump's actions and his opponents. And I will say this Coriat, you are absolutely right...it IS a factional struggle within the elite, rather than a struggle against the elite.

And I am still very happy that I supported Trump, because that fractional struggle is between those elites who favor globalism, and those elites who favor nationalism. Zuckerberg confirmed this with his saying that the fight against nationalism is the struggle of our time.

That is his perspective, mine is that the fight against globalism is the struggle of our time, and if us ordinary joe shmoes want to have any hope of NOT being global production units that are shuffled from country to country without any home, culture or family to call our own, than we have to stop Zuckerberg, George Soros, Carlos Slim and Jeff Bezos, among others.

Speaking of Carlos Slim, yes he did recover from that black eye Trump gave him last November, but those two are still at war. All you have to do is check Carlos Slim's blog each day for another hysterical accusation against Trump. The title of Carlos Slim's blog is The New York Times.

There are any number of ways this fight between Trump and Slim will end, but an amicable peace is just about the least likely. Much more likely is one of them losing big time.

Quote:
The billionaires I really care about right now are the ones Trump has stuffed the cabinet with.

The ones I care about so far are Rex Tillerson and Wilbur Ross. Mostly I worry that they are going to be stabbed in the back by their bureaucratic underlings.


MMCJawa wrote:

Well...clearly I don't agree with most anything NPC Dave says, but he does have a point that things have on many, many an occasion looked bad for Trump with him skating through unharmed.

As horrible as the last few weeks have been for him, so far poll numbers don't really show much of any consistent shift. People who approved of the Trump Admin back in January largely still approve of him. Granted, 538 analysis does show the number of STRONGLY approving folks is on the decline, but those folks still overall approve. I don't think we are going to see congress turn on him until post 2018 at the earliest...maybe not even then.

Trump supporters and Democrat supporters watch completely different news channels and read completely different articles. And each side believes almost nothing that the other side sources.

While Orframay's rhetoric was over the top, there was a fundamental kernel of truth in there about Trump supporters. If CNN reported that Trump had just murdered someone in cold blood, Trump's support would not drop much.

That isn't because Trump supporters want him or like him killing people in cold blood. It would be because they would never hear about it, or if they did hear about it they wouldn't believe it because it was on CNN. Barring actual video of course.


CBDunkerson wrote:

I see.

So... Richard Nixon, as head of the executive branch, had "the power to decide" that the FBI should not be investigating the crimes he committed

That is correct, he does have that power.

Quote:
and thus it was perfectly ok for him to start firing people in an effort to end the investigation.

Perfectly ok? That is up for Congress to decide whether it is ok or not.

Quote:

Welcome to fascist dictatorship America.

Fortunately, not found here on the actual Earth planet.

Because of Article I, Section 5 of the US Constitution

The House of Representatives shall choose their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

Not the key words, "sole Power" They don't share that power with the FBI.

Quote:

When Obama did the same thing publicly last year in April that Trump did according to Swampey Comey's diary, it wasn't illegal or unethical.

Quote:
Never happened. Obama never even suggested that the investigation in to Clinton should be ended...

Instead he told us all how the investigation should end.

Quote:
let alone directly asking officials to do so. Just another lie that conservatives accept automatically.

Not a lie, it is the absolute truth. Obama publicly stated his own conclusions on the Hillary investigation in April 2016 on TV, and, in doing so, directed his officials to come to the same conclusion, because that is exactly what Swampey Comey did three months later. When Comey claimed that the FBI needed to be independent of the President, what he really meant was that he wanted it to be independent from Trump.

When your boss states on TV that A is true, that is an even stronger signal to your underlings to find A to be true than stating "I hope you can see your way clear to letting A be true. I hope you can let A be true." in private.

And once again, I will reiterate that I have absolutely no problem with what Obama and Trump did. An abuse of power is when someone uses power they are not authorized to use, not when someone uses power they are authorized to use.


Rednal wrote:

@Dave: ...I'm not sure I understand your position here. You said that "If there is a real crime then it should be investigated and prosecuted", but in many cases, the only way to actually know if a crime occurred or not is to perform an investigation. There were reasonably credible allegations about Flynn that suggested a robust examination was necessary... and it's generally the Federal government that does that for allegations like the ones made about Flynn, and for people in Flynn's position.

There's a reason some parts of the government are considered to be more independent than others - a fair and impartial investigative team is critical for ensuring justice is done. Sometimes that means investigating the rest of the Executive branch. If the Executive or Legislative branches want to be sure government resources are used properly, they can nominate/confirm an Attorney General (etc.) who they trust to do that - but they should not be allowed to dismiss investigations into their own alleged wrongdoing. That's not the appropriate check on the agency's power, since it would be all too easy to hide corruption if they could simply tell the FBI to stop investigating things that would be... inconvenient... for them.

No part of the Government should have the authority to shut down investigations into their own wrongdoing, or that of their close supporters. It's not about political party, it's about having real limits in place so those who might be tempted to abuse their power are far less able to do so.

If no part of the government should have the authority to shut down investigations into their own wrongdoing, then the US Constitution is fundamentally flawed.

Article 2, Section 2 of the US Constitution
The President shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

If the President chooses to pardon someone, that is it. Any ongoing investigation is over, any trial ongoing is over, any prison sentence being served is over. That person is free. While we could debate the theoretical concept on whether the power of the pardon should be available and if so, who should have it, we can't lose sight of the fact that Trump does, in fact, have that power, as Obama did before him.

Because Trump has the power of the pardon, any attempt to accuse him of committing the crime of obstruction of justice because he exercised that power(at full or in part) is completely absurd. It is the equivalent of accusing a police officer, who arrested and jailed a bank robber, of kidnapping. This is why I say what Trump did is in no way illegal.

The reasons I think what Trump did is in no way unethical is because first, I think the individual that was acting unethically here was Swampey Comey, not Trump. Second, like Trump, Obama also expressed his opinion on the FBI investigation into Hillary well before it was over, and saw no need to wait for the investigation to be over before reaching his conclusion and letting his FBI director know that conclusion. That isn't unethical, if the boss of the boss of the FBI has seen enough to reach a conclusion, that is his prerogative.


Ambrosia Slaad wrote:
NPC Dave wrote:
My own take... Swampey Comey's statement is as expected. Trump did nothing illegal or unethical but his actions are dressed up as much as possible to maintain suspicion that he is up to something.

I do think that Trump was trying to simply conduct "business as usual" as Trump understands it, and that Trump likely believes he did nothing illegal or even unethical. That has little to no impact on what is objectively unethical and illegal though.

But this isn't a trial in a court of law, and Trump and his associates don't have to be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, or even with a preponderance of evidence. If Trump and his associates sufficiently jeopardize the Republicans losing significant seats in Congress and/or state races in 2018, then he very likely risks being impeached, which is entirely a political process. And I'm pretty sure Congressional Repubs aren't going to go down with Trump if they can help it.

NPC Dave wrote:
This is to help the Democrats save face and give a bone to those media outlets that want to keep maintaining the facade that Trump was obstructing justice.
I'm not sure how a Trump PAC running ads attacking Comey during Comey's testimony tomorrow shoehorns into this anti-Dems and anti-media narrative... but it certainly isn't a good look for Trump.

When was the last time anything looked good for Trump? It didn't look good for Trump in the Republican primaries, it didn't look good for Trump in the general election, it didn't look good for Trump in the electoral college, it didn't look good for Trump's Supreme Court nominee, and it doesn't look good for Trump now.

I hereby predict that it won't look good for Trump in 2018, it won't look good for Trump in 2019 and it won't look good for Trump in 2020. It may also not look good for Trump in 2021, 2022, 2023, and 2024.

But what I won't predict is Trump being impeached. He might, might die in office. I certainly hope not. But it is possible. But if you think or hope Trump is going to be impeached, I think you are only setting yourself up for disappointment.


Orville Redenbacher wrote:
NPC Dave wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

The Senate Intelligence Committee has just released Comey's opening statement for tomorrow. It's pretty good reading.

...

Edit 4: And here's Josh Marshall's (of TPM) annotated notes on the Comey statement. Also very interesting reading.

My own take... Swampey Comey's statement is as expected. Trump did nothing illegal or unethical but his actions are dressed up as much as possible to maintain suspicion that he is up to something. This is to help the Democrats save face and give a bone to those media outlets that want to keep maintaining the facade that Trump was obstructing justice.
When is Trump going after your enemies instead of filling his cabinet with them?

He already started, even before he took office.

Carlos Slim loses $5.8 billion thanks to Trump.

Say it with me. $5.8 BILLLLLLLLLLLIONNNNNNNN dollars. Eat that loss Carlos Slim. I love it!!!

I am a Trump supporter and I am not tired of winning yet.

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