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Look at their names. They were picked from the Divine Comedy. Seems like a smart move, but it's not.
I am italian, and don't know how exactly do they sound to non-italian people, but for an italian I can assure you that all of those names, rather than sounding cool and arcane, sound more like the names of childish-tale buffoons' names.
To provide you a couple examples, Graffiacane can be literally translated to "scratch-dog". Cagnazzo is like a mock name for a bad and ugly old dog. Cicrciatto (original: Ciriatto) is considered to be meaning "pig". And so on. Some don't even have an exact translation but just sound plain buffoon-ish.
Rubicante and Barbarica (this last one translates to "barbaric" when referring to a woman) are probably the least terrible two, but that's just my personal opinion. Not even considering that the original name for Barbarica was Barbariccia, which translates to "curly beard".
Fact, on the other hand, is that any italian player hearing all those names is going to laugh like mad, regardless that he does or doesn't remember where they are from, and the session will die there. By consequence, it'd be nearly impossible to do things like using even a single Malebranche as a recurring name in a campaign (such as the object of a cult or the mind behind certain schemes) without having jokes and puns killing the atmosphere forever, with the campaign engraved in memory only due to the comical nature of a bad guy's name. Worse, an Infernal bad guy who's supposed to be a paragon of evil and terror whose mere name should cause common people to be scared.
Well, of course I'm aware those names aren't going to be changed or anything, but please, heed this suggestion: next time you pick names for a project that's going to be international from an old book, especially one which has "Comedy" on its title, please ask an opinion about their sound and meanings to someone who speaks the same native language of that book. It surely isn't that big of a problem, with internet and all in our age.
You could try to find an in-game explanation for it. For example, it could be nicknames spread among the mortal realm to make these guys sound harmless.
Creative Director
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In English... which is, of course, the native language the game is published in, the names sound fine... more than that, since they ARE from Dante, they sound "right" for devils.
And even knowing the translations of the names, I'm honestly okay with it. Perhaps they've got somewhat humiliating names because they AREN'T full infernal dukes or archdevils yet, and once they earn that right they get to upgrade their name to something else?
The better solution, though, would probably be to simply rename them to something more appropriate if in your group the names are having an undesired effect.
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Here in Brazil we have the legend of the Mocking Brazilian, a person whose job is to name Star Wars characters and he find amusing naming people after ridiculous brazilian words. This is so common that some characters have different names in Brazil because their name mean very rude words in portuguese (br). Coronel Panaka is Coronel Dumbass, Dooku means "from THAT hole" etc...
I guess in fantasy is very easy to name something that sound silly or rude in other languages. The greatest example in Paizo books is the god Abadar, no player take him serious because Abada is the name of the vestment we wear in the carnaval. So everybody think of wild parties when we hear his name (well some designer abadas can be very expensive, so theres some correlation), and ask about the prestige class "cordeiro" ("cordeiros" are the security guards that protect the private space around the Trio Eletrico [motorized stage] while roaming around in the streets during carnaval). So sometimes i call him Ebidar (thats how Abadar sounds in english for us).
Try other manners to pronunciate the names so they sound more serious or simply translate them to some other language that no one in your table understand (i often translate things to german or turking in my campaing because they sound very exotic and fantasy-like in portuguese)
(i often translate things to german or turking in my campaing because they sound very exotic and fantasy-like in portuguese)
Now I'm interested which words you translated into German.
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Now I'm interested which words you translated into German.(i often translate things to german or turking in my campaing because they sound very exotic and fantasy-like in portuguese)
Nothing complex. Some family surnames and places. Eisritter its top on my mind, it sounds very feudal in portuguese. Nordstadt was a dwarven city in my campaing, Feuerstab was a magic tower etc...
(Edit: Its worth mentioning that i have no idea how these words were meant to sound in german, i only say the syllabes as they would sound in portuguese pronunciation)
(Edit 2) Interesting facts about how some spoken languages sound to some brazialians: (Edit 3 I live in a very touristic city, so we are used to hear people from all around the word talking, this what we talk among ourselves how other languages sound without understanding what they are talking)
German : A man calmly reading a cake recipe, sounds like he is casting a vengeful spell from necronomicon, even swendish that appears to us like random letters held together dont sound like that.
French : Male spoken french sounds effeminate (even with a deep voice), female spoken french sound cheap.
Italian : Italian sounds angry or old, many people have italian accent in brazil and we are used to them.
Japonese: Male spoken sounds like as if he was trying to intimidate us, female spoken sounds like small children.
Chinese: Sounds like someone talking laughing, when they speak really slowly they sound smart or repectful.
Russian: Sounds like crazy talk... while drunk.
English (UK Accent): Sounds like someone drunk or high.
English (US Accent): Today we are very used to american accents, but when i was little people talked it sounded like someone trying to con us or hiding something.
Hindi: Sounds like someone trying to talk really fast.
Spanish: They sound as if they are trying to scare us.
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English (US Accent): Today we are very used to american accents, but when i was little people talked it sounded like someone trying to con us or hiding something.
Speaking as a US citizen... that's probably not completely unfounded.
I must admit that I make liberal use of Google Translate to prepare short phrases (or even long phrases) in the various fictional tongues that appear in the game. I figure between my middle-America player base's standard educational and cultural backgrounds (usually, some of them might have a little Spanish, less frequently a little French or German) and my no-doubt atrocious pronunciations (and Google Translate's sometimes hilarious translations), then I'm safe in adding flavor to RP experiences by having NPC or creature X "saying" Surrender now in Turkish or Estonian or what-have-you.
I further must admit it does sometimes make me feel mildly appropriative doing that—don't mean to suggest that speakers of Icelandic have anything to do with supposed speakers of Infernal, for example.
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In the Irrisen book there are locations with Slavic names, Kizobran (Umbrella), Zlatomesto (Goldplace), Riba (Fish), Riekamesto (Riverplace), Ledenica (Freezer?), Zelen (Green) ... Pretty good job on these ones, I don't think the players would laugh at them. Tough it's a bit weird that some nearby locations have English names.
Nothing complex. Some family surnames and places. Eisritter its top on my mind, it sounds very feudal in portuguese. Nordstadt was a dwarven city in my campaing, Feuerstab was a magic tower etc...Now I'm interested which words you translated into German.(i often translate things to german or turking in my campaing because they sound very exotic and fantasy-like in portuguese)
Did you want the name of the tower to mean "Staff of Fire"? That sounds funny.
It's an interesting idea, to be sure.
German : A man calmly reading a cake recipe, sounds like he is casting a vengeful spell from necronomicon, even swendish that appears to us like random letters held together dont sound like that.
That made me laugh. Take a look at this. That literally is a cake recipe (even the accent isn't bad). I get that German is a rather precise language, but I had no idea we sound like that to some people.
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Did you want the name of the tower to mean "Staff of Fire"? That sounds funny.It's an interesting idea, to be sure.
Actually i begin trying for something like desert teeth. But nothing sounded mysterious. It´s more for the appearance than grammatical. The words toy with what is strange for my language. It occurs backward too. The only time i have seen Portuguese in a RPG product was in the Red Steel Campaign Setting (Mystara) and there they said Portuguese sounded romantic and nostalgic. Its weird because the words they choose were so plain and mundane. Thats how i learned that one mans mundane can be other man weird magical stuff.
That made me laugh. Take a look at this. That literally is a cake recipe (even the accent isn't bad). I get that German is a rather precise language, but I had no idea we sound like that to some people.
Every German that i had personally meet were very gentle, but there something when they talk that is otherworldly. Even woman sound authoritative. I remember there was a friend of mine in high school that have gone as exchange student in Germany and learnt how to swear and teached to everyone because sounded hyper offensive.
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Of course I can change any name (or use it as a mock name among common people, or anything else), that's needless to say. Although official names still remain official names, if you know what I mean, especially with players that do read certain things.
In English... which is, of course, the native language the game is published in, the names sound fine... more than that, since they ARE from Dante, they sound "right" for devils.
I don't doubt that for non-native speakers of the language certain names are taken from, they may sound cool, but I am, alas, afraid that you might have to revise your view of Dante, James. Or at least of his Hell. That (the first part of) his book is about Hell doesn't outright make any name in it appropriate for a Devil; primary reason is that it's not a horror book or something, but rather a satyrical book where Dante mocked his enemies and the people dead or alive in his age that he despised. Or, at best, where he told some popular stories of people publicly despised for their deadly sins or such.
Often, in this, there is a highly buffoonesque atmosphere; for example, there's a famous line about a devil using his bottom as a trumpet (yes, farting, in case you're wondering). And almost all of the Malebranche names fall in the buffoon category (the best exception remains Rubicante, which still may have something ridicule about it, if anyone wishes to bring it to light). To give you another example, Cagnazzo (other than what I mentioned above) rhymes strongly with the most common italian vulgar word for penis. Just imagine what it'd be like to say at an italian gaming table something like: "You have to take down Cagnazzo." The game dies. Instantly. Two sessions of laughter, puns, jokes and dirty rhymes later, maybe you'll have the game's reins in your hands again, if you subtly swap the name with another one.In the end, it's more or less as if I presented you the powerful and terrifying Nightshade duo of Itchy and Sratchy. And I'm unsure that Itchy and Scratchy have the same level of ridicule in them that the Malebranche names do, because they're not just humiliating for the beares (like things as "Waste-Eater" or "The Dumb One" might be), but plainly laughter-inducing for players.
For italian players, that is.
The word "Malebranche" itself, on the other hand, sounds quite cool.
But for Devil names I think it's better to stick to middle-eastern mythologies and such. Save for exceptions that, at present, I'm unable to provide, avoid at all cost any italian source written between 1300 and 1700.
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Reptile, this exactly what we have been discussing. A lot of names (intentionally or not), sound ridiculous or vulgar in other languages. I can understand 50% of italian and still think of Dante's names as devilish, because a lot motives, including tradition.
People always laugh at first, but this will happens anyway even with english speaking people. Change the downright vulgar words and remind people that the names are not funny inside the gameworld.
Edit: Take pokemon for exemple, i dont know if this happens with others latin languages (i know thats happens in spanish), but Pika means a very vulgar word for masculine genitals. How many times pikachu says pika in a children cartoon ? (yes, he says it even in the dubbed version). Eventually people abstract and focus on the author meaning.
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I think it is basically impossible for Paizo (or anyone else) to create names that don't sound ridiculous in SOME language.
I think it is basically impossible for Paizo (or anyone else) to create names that don't sound ridiculous in SOME language.
I indistinctly remember reading somewhere, that some phrase in an alien language in Star Wars Episode IV sounded something like "May 1000 elephants step on your foot" in (probably) one African language.
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Creative Director
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I think it is basically impossible for Paizo (or anyone else) to create names that don't sound ridiculous in SOME language.
And a coralary to that is it's basically impossible for Paizo to understand what every word means in every language.
We HAVE come a long way since the start, when freelancers would often introduce words into their writing, either as easter eggs, out of ignorance, or out of a misguided attempt to be "legitimate" by using words from other languages in Golarion without fully realizing the implications of those words in their original language. In some cases, those early introductions to Golarion are staying put, such as the case wtih jadwiga. In others, we're fixing them because they're actually really goofy or bad.
We've got people who've actually trained in and studied linguistics on staff now but didn't at the start, in other words. (Yay for Judy!!!)
IIRC: Jadwiga is a common term for a Queen who ruled during a major war and was militant... Depending on the usage that might be fitting...
Is it used for a Female Linnorm King? Or Irresen Queen?
It's used for the descendants of Baba Yaga's daughters who make up the nobility and middle classes in Irrisen.
Hmm... Depending on Irrisen's Social Structure that might be perfect.
Jadwiga is based on Hedwig. Both are used as both a name & title/nickname.
I think it is basically impossible for Paizo (or anyone else) to create names that don't sound ridiculous in SOME language.And a coralary to that is it's basically impossible for Paizo to understand what every word means in every language.
Of course. I already said that I'm fully aware of this, since it's absolutely obvious.
But it can be helped for the future; as I said, heed this advice: don't pick names from any book that has "Comedy" in its title (or which is labeled as such), even if you saw some suggestive Doré illustration of it. Or from most other italian writings created between 1300 and 1700, since in those centuries there was, sadly, a too wide veil of jesting in the "fantasy" area.
The Divine Comedy is meant as Satirical the Ironic Part is the fact that the Names actually come from a Book whose title translates as The Bestiary of the Abyss.
Not every name in the divine comedy is a funny name but, yes, malebranche are a group of comic devils.
Nevertheless, as Italian, I REALLY appreciated your inspiration to the Divine for many names, and while malebranche are originally a comic group we can not say the same for these devils who are a tribute to the most famous hell of all time. I would like to insert one of them in my game (btw, I found this post seeking for the malebranche who is currently influencing Golarion) and no one will laugh at my table (because, really, only a 12 yo kid would waste time joking and laughing about a rhyme with penis...). And the players may even be scared and surprised hearing such an archaic name, which seems to mock the speaker more than the devil with its grotesque, satirical, deadly simplicity, and that brings the (Italian, at least) mind back in a 700 years old atmosphere.
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The names are historical/mythical/classic fictional references, and a tribute to one of the most famous interpretations of Hell. In my opinion, that's justification enough.
Btw, for sake of conversation, these are the translations of the names, off of the Pathfinder Wiki.
Alichino (derived from Arlecchino, the harlequin)
■ Barbariccia ("Curly Beard")
■ Cagnazzo ("Nasty Dog")
■ Calcabrina (possibly "Grace Stomper")
■ Ciriatto ("Wild Hog")
■ Draghignazzo ("Big Nasty Dragon")
■ Farfarello (possibly "Goblin")
■ Graffiacane ("Dog Scratcher")
■ Libicocco (possibly "Libyan Hothead")
■ Malacoda, the leader ("Evil Tail")
■ Rubicante (possibly "Red-faced Terror")
■ Scarmiglione (possibly "Trouble Maker")
Some do sound silly, but others are rather sinister.
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With the malbranche I chose to do what we frequently do when it comes to new monsters and divine beings, I drew upon the existing names and cache of creatures already established in folklore, myth, and fiction. That's not necessarily the same as drawing from a primary source, though.
Let me use another infernal figure as an example.
Here's Barbatos's depiction from a century or two ago.
Here's our depiction of Barbatos.
There isn't much in the way of similarities there visually. So why use the character and/or name at all?
Well, aside from some overlap in their description and areas of concern, I picked up this archdevil's in part as a not to the readers out there who would recognize it. The intention is that some readers will recognize the name and even if they don't know all the specifics of Barbatos from the Ars Goetia and similar texts, they'll know that he's an established figure from real-world demonology with all the connotations that implies. They'll also have a thread they can follow if they're looking for more details on the character. So, in part—aside from our own tastes in mythology and demonology—we like to give readers the opportunity to see a cool name, have the satisfaction of finding a touchstone they recognize, have whatever emotional response they have to real-world demonology, and have the option to go on and learn more if they so choose.
Being respectful of the source material is particularly important to me—I wouldn't drawn in a character just to mock it. But if we can add to a figure's story to make it even cooler or more accessible or more popular, that's great.
We're also not the only folks to do this. There's a long tradition of game makers and storytellers drawing on mythological and fictional primary sources. And in many cases, that causes the new creations to diverge from the original material and take on their own lives.
The comic character Iron Man comes immediately to mind. His original outfit, I dare say, not awesome. His current incarnation, awesome. Same character, but he's changed radically from what he was a few short decades ago.
Closer to our genre, lets take beholders. They began as goofy pun monsters. A few decades later, they're one of most infamous creations of Dungeons & Dragons.
Time, momentum, popularity, and prevailing tastes change our preferences and our stories often change with them.
Getting back to the malbranche, lets see if there are any examples of this.
(Warning: Potential NSFW content to follow)
Here's the Google image results for Alichino. I'm seeing a lot of jesters and seductive pretty boys in here.
Here's the Google image results for Rubicante. I'm seeing a lot of red guys and fire monsters here.
Here's the Google image results for Scarmiglione. I'm seeing a lot of brutish and skeletal monstrosities in here.
Even when we just search for "Malbranche Demons" the results are typically less then comic. Going as far back a Gustav Dore, it looks like the malbranche have terrifying connotations.
While I know these modern visions are far from what Dante intended, they're still powerful characters. Even though their names might have comedic (or, at least, not frightening) connotations in their native tongue, those same names are the keys that unlock a host of fearful connotations for many gamers.
That's what I chose to draw on them in Book of the Damned: Princes of Darkness.
Now, all that being said, I'm not refuting the fact that in Italian, these names don't necessarily work. The hard definitions of those names are much stronger than any implications. So, if I were looking to rename these characters in a way that has a similarly ominous impact, I might suggest the following options.
The first set takes the existing names and replaces them with the names of fallen angels (as listed in Gustav Davidson's A Dictionary of Angels, Including the Fallen Angels).
■ Alichino - Astoreth
■ Barbariccia - Balberith
■ Cagnazzo - Caym
■ Calcabrina - Carnivean
■ Ciriatto - Carreu
■ Draghignazzo - Danjal
■ Farfarello - Ezequeel
■ Graffiacane - Gressil
■ Libicocco - Lauviah
■ Malacoda - Marchosias
■ Rubicante - Raum
■ Scarmiglione - Senciner
Alternatively, if you'd like less directly Judeo-Christian options, try these from Theresa Bane's Encyclopedia of Demons in World Religions and Cultures.
■ Alichino - Ayperor
■ Barbariccia - Bensozia
■ Cagnazzo - Chordeva
■ Calcabrina - Ciuapipiltin
■ Ciriatto - Conferentes
■ Draghignazzo - Diralisen
■ Farfarello - Finaxos
■ Graffiacane - Gandarewa
■ Libicocco - Librabis
■ Malacoda - Mascarvin
■ Rubicante - Ramaratz
■ Scarmiglione - Serguliath
Hopefully these (or some combination of these) are helpful and don't come off as silly in your language in the same way.
As an aside, I'd love to hear what plots you're cooking up using these characters. The malbranche haven't gotten a ton of play yet and I'm sure lots of folks here would like to hear what you have in store for them.
Also, I was in Lucca a few years back with the crew from Wyrd Edizioni and was shocked how much folks there were digging Council of Thieves. I've been eager to get back to Cheliax, Hell, and some strong political adventuring ever since, so be sure to let me know what you'd think of more in that same vein.
Thanks!
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As an aside, I'd love to hear what plots you're cooking up using these characters. The malbranche haven't gotten a ton of play yet and I'm sure lots of folks here would like to hear what you have in store for them.
Also, I was in Lucca a few years back with the crew from Wyrd Edizioni and was shocked how much folks there were digging Council of Thieves. I've been eager to get back to Cheliax, Hell, and some strong political adventuring ever since, so be sure to let me know what you'd think of more in that same vein.
Here in Italy we can translate just few of the AP written by Paizo, so these adventures become more popular than untranslated ones :-). Recently our publishing house, Giochi Uniti, published a hardcover version of Kingmaker so many people are playing that right now.
In these posts I'm trying to create a political subplot involving devils that would lead my players till 20th level in Kingmaker. I recently bought Princes of Darkness and it was fundamental for it, and I'm still seeking a way to involve Malebranche — even if I depict them really powerful, so I have difficulties in finding the right place for them.
Look at their names. They were picked from the Divine Comedy. Seems like a smart move, but it's not.
I am italian, and don't know how exactly do they sound to non-italian people, but for an italian I can assure you that all of those names, rather than sounding cool and arcane, sound more like the names of childish-tale buffoons' names.
To provide you a couple examples, Graffiacane can be literally translated to "scratch-dog". Cagnazzo is like a mock name for a bad and ugly old dog. Cicrciatto (original: Ciriatto) is considered to be meaning "pig". And so on. Some don't even have an exact translation but just sound plain buffoon-ish.
Rubicante and Barbarica (this last one translates to "barbaric" when referring to a woman) are probably the least terrible two, but that's just my personal opinion. Not even considering that the original name for Barbarica was Barbariccia, which translates to "curly beard".
Fact, on the other hand, is that any italian player hearing all those names is going to laugh like mad, regardless that he does or doesn't remember where they are from, and the session will die there. By consequence, it'd be nearly impossible to do things like using even a single Malebranche as a recurring name in a campaign (such as the object of a cult or the mind behind certain schemes) without having jokes and puns killing the atmosphere forever, with the campaign engraved in memory only due to the comical nature of a bad guy's name. Worse, an Infernal bad guy who's supposed to be a paragon of evil and terror whose mere name should cause common people to be scared. I see this with anime titles aimed at western audiences but created by eastern writers... pretty unintentionally funny stuff they perhaps thought would be chilling/serious/badass.Well, of course I'm aware those names aren't going to be changed or anything, but please, heed this suggestion: next time you pick names for a project that's going to be international from an old book, especially one which has "Comedy" on its title, please ask an opinion about their sound and meanings to someone who speaks the same native language of that book. It...
Interesting find: It would appear that a lot of those names and such seem to be derived from words used for insects.
Graffiacane and Scarmiglione apparently is based off of the names used for types of Mantis.
But all in all, one of the overarching themes with the naming of Divine Creatures whether they be Good, Neutral, or Evil is that they use a false or shortened name. This prevents them from falling under the effects of a Soul Name or True Name. Think of it as a Street Name, Code Name, etc.
Like in Shadowrun. Your character wouldn't go around be called John Smith during a Run they would go by their street name of 'Desperado' or 'Short Circuit'.
NOTE: Referencing my friend's Decker.
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Look at their names. They were picked from the Divine Comedy. Seems like a smart move, but it's not.
I am italian, and don't know how exactly do they sound to non-italian people, but for an italian I can assure you that all of those names, rather than sounding cool and arcane, sound more like the names of childish-tale buffoons' names.
I can appreciate that you don't like the tonality of the names. However, I have trouble considering your criticisms well-founded. First of all, the name Divine Comedy does not mean "something funny." A comedy, in the classic sense, is something that has a happy ending, so the name is really something more like The Divine Adventure. It even has blockbuster sequels.
Secondly, it was written in a dialect of Italian. However the names sound to you, that's probably about how they sounded to Dante. That's really good enough for me. Sure, in English, we often use Greek or Latin to sound arcane, and in India and China, they use Sanskrit. But every arcane phrase means something literal in a known language. In simple fact, nicknames for the devil in English include Old Scratch, Old Nick, and Old Harry.
Hobgoblin just means "Bob the Goblin" (i.e. Robin Goodfellow), a sea serpent is a sea snake, a hag is an old woman, an orc is a false cognate with boar or suckling (yrk, eg. The Orkney Islands), a bastard sword sounds like something fairly rude, a girdle is often used to describe a mechanical belt for form-fitting underwear of a kind now considered out-dated (and more than a little effeminate), a cuirass sounds both obscene and homophobic, and a magic missile had to be annotated in several introductory versions of the game as not conjuring a piece of explosive, long-range ordinance.
Orcs actually hail from Nordic lore. Apparently they were a type of cave dwelling creature loosely relate to Trolls and Giants.
Orcs actually hail from Nordic lore. Apparently they were a type of cave dwelling creature loosely relate to Trolls and Giants.
Well... maybe?
