The Centaur village has a max. caster level limit of 5, so the 75% rules is not in effect. They could voluntarily kill themselves and get a raise dead which would remove the malady.
I'll double check but they might have enough UMD to control the hut so they might be able to have it walk the 600 miles to the next large city.
Caster level limit and purchase limits are very different beasts. Finding a caster who could cast heal would be much, MUCH cheaper than the scroll, but scrolls can still be available by chance.
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If the party gets the "good end", which is to say, gets rid of the invaders, ends the coven problem, and both convince Jadrenka of their mission and fully befreind her (treat her well, etc), then I don't see why she wouldn't be very clear about the pit, what it does, and how it can be avoided.
In my game, assuming the players pull this off, she would offer that the whole group undergo the croning and then enter the pit, gaining the wisdom of age, the humility of infirmity, and true understanding of the march of time, the ultimate force of creation and destruction. Assuming they do so, she would remove the physical penalties, leaving the mental ones. To some this could be a nice power boost, but I think its very plot appropriate if they managed a "good end". If they managed most of that, but perhaps didn't fully convince Jadrenka of their intentions or loyalty, she might remove both the penalties and bonuses, or she might simply be quiet and let them go about their business, suffering whatever consequences may come. She is LE, after all.
If the party gets the "good end", which is to say, gets rid of the invaders, ends the coven problem, and both convince Jadrenka of their mission and fully befreind her (treat her well, etc), then I don't see why she wouldn't be very clear about the pit, what it does, and how it can be avoided.
In my game, assuming the players pull this off, she would offer that the whole group undergo the croning and then enter the pit, gaining the wisdom of age, the humility of infirmity, and true understanding of the march of time, the ultimate force of creation and destruction. Assuming they do so, she would remove the physical penalties, leaving the mental ones. To some this could be a nice power boost, but I think its very plot appropriate if they managed a "good end". If they managed most of that, but perhaps didn't fully convince Jadrenka of their intentions or loyalty, she might remove both the penalties and bonuses, or she might simply be quiet and let them go about their business, suffering whatever consequences may come. She is LE, after all.
So you'd let ALL players undergo the croning ritual and not just those with levels in witch? My players are getting decimated and wanted to throw them a bone and may do this option if they befriend her. Though our archer decided to shoot Jadrenka when they first met her... At the coven fight. Basically they found Caigreal, she followed them for a bit until they reached the croning ritual, and trying to pull them away from her allies, I had her tell them that the hallway was cursed and she bolted to go form her coven and deal with the group now that she had learned their strengths. They tracked her down and were brutalized, but now that Caigreal and the coven is dead, does Jadrenka have to fear losing the Artrosa Ring?
I am starting this book soon and have some questions I was hoping for help with:
My group is growing and could number anywhere from 4 up to 7 players when we start this adventure. There are lots of solo encounters (potential or actual) that seem I'll suited to simplyadding more enemies e.g. ddire boar, animated nightmare, ravens and ratibor.
Does anyone know how I can raise the challenge of these encounters (considering action economy)
Is the hut considered a dungeon or building for favoured terrain purposes?
Thanks
My party just reached the Eon Pit and I was wondering... Can they summon a creature or create undead to fetch the key, will this work? I understand a summoned creature MAY need to make saves, but what about immune to mind effecting effects creatures?
Is this a viable method to bypass the trap?
The insanity effect seems to be mind effecting influences. So as long as the creature can be given the appropriate instructions and make the perception check (which could be a problem for the pc's in my group most likely to make the saves!)
I haven't read the preceding sections in detail yet but how does the group:
a). Know what the pit does so that they want to avoid going in
b). Know the key is in the pit
Are these points covered in the adventure?
Also is it possible that they could reach the 'final' fight far too early ?
The key can be seen at the bottom of the Eon Pit. And no, if the party didn't make any friends in Artrosia, they won't even discover the pit is dangerous until they step into it.
Marislova, if won over, could let the party know that Jadrenka had warned her about the Eon Pit. The night hag who's got the bottled message might also advise that the Eon Pit is dangerous.
Jadrenka herself hints that they want to use her age resistance scroll if she's friendly to them at that point.
And yeah, the party could go straight to the final confrontation if they navigated the dungeon just right. The odds of them actually doing so are slim, but it can happen, in which case it happens.
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GM Reference thread for Maiden, Mother, Crone.
Dotted for future reference
+2 from having the advanced template, granted to her as warden of Artrosia.
Started playing this an have some issues I would like to get some opinions on (but will use separate posts)
Experience deficit -
The book recommends that the party by level 8 by the time they enter Artrosa.
Now through a combination of newly introduced characters and the party increasing to 6 players, my group are going to be a long way short of this
I have calculated the encounters up to Artrosa and even the 3 who have played every session are going to be about 5000 short (the others 12000)
I am at a loss to workout how to fit in that much XP without dozens of encounters
Add in that I don't think my players will appreciate what will amount to a whole session hacking and slashing through things to grind up xp.
Easy solution is obviously just to level them up as required. But that seems a little unfair on the players who have always been around
My questions boil down to:
1. Has anyone got a way I can award chunks of XP without lots of combats. Non-combat methods could be interesting (however almost all the party are dreadfully built for social interactions - and have suffered for it so far!)
2. If it does end up being best to level up based on book recommendations can anyone think of a reasonable way to reward players who actually turn up to the games over those who no show?
Thanks for any help
My other MMC point is about the dungeons and is based on a concern I read on this board the other day (but I cannot remember if it was in this post or another)
That point being how deadly Artrosa is - especially as it is combat after combat.
I have looked through and am trying to work out whether this really is necessary. I would appreciate any input of the various rooms (especially from anyone who has played through)
Maiden
---> This is a change I am strongly considering making
C2 and C3 - Followers of Vselvold : I cannot imagine any circumstance where this would not be combat (especially the demons).
C4 - Satyr and tendriculous. I may need to find a way of powering this encounter up if my full party of six attends this.
In this instance I am not convinced why the Satyr would think he could take on 6 people (even with his monstrous aid).
The flip side is that the more foes, the more sacrifices for his target...
I can't help but wonder if there is scope for a more nefarious group to offer to help him though....(but there doesn't seem to be an easy way for them to work out his aims)
C5 - Good potential for no combat at least at this stage unless the party make some interesting RP decisions
C6 - Jadrenka - I struggle here and with all of the scripted Jadrenka meetings. They all end with her disappearing and leaving the PCs with something nasty to deal with. To me this just seems like it will make the PCs view her as an enemy.
C7 - Trap
C8 - Lurkers in the Light - It is not clear to me exactly why there is a light fountain but I can go with it. Seems like a pure combat room though
C9 - Trap
C10 - Nymph - doesn't seem like any scope for talking here!
Mother
D2 - Marislova - It seems impossible not to start to turn Jadrenka against you due to this room (even simply entering). And I imagine most groups will either free or kill Marislova which seriously damages their chances in the dungeons. How have people played this out?
D3 = Vsevolod forces - combat unavoidable
D4-D5 : More seemingly unavoidable combats
D6 = Trap
D7 - definite enemies
D8 - Upasunda. I don't really understand how this fits in this dungeon? What are people's thoughts?
D9: Another confusing one. It seems like you can avoid combat if the PCs are discussing Baba Yaga or the Black Rider. Now I cannot think why the PCs would be casually chatting about Baba Yaga by this stage in the dungeon. Seems like a frustrating potential alliance that most groups will never realistically be able to utilize
Crone
My one point of interest is the Prisoner guard and his zombies. If he is the guard why is he so far from the cells. It is a bit confusing
Sorry for the very long and rambling post ( was easiest way to highlight some of my points).
I am looking for ways of preventing this dungeon being a very deadly grind through rooms that could bore and/or frustrate players
Any tips would be appreciated!
You could add another battle with Frost Giants... or for that matter, an encounter with some of Queen Elvanna's witches and ice troll allies showing up to take Artosa for Elvanna. This could also include some defensive magic to help improve the survivability of the newer players (a couple cloaks of defense +2 and rings of protection +2).
I'd actually suggest having an encounter with Elvanna supporters, as it helps create more of a sense of continuity with the previous AP, and also continues the feel of warding off Elvanna's world domination ploy rather than a "collect the plot coupon to go to the next castle" quest.
Thanks! I was already penciling that in (not least because a player wants to change character to a Baba Yaga supporter from Irrisen and I was going to make him sneak to Iobaria with a group of Elvanna supporters)
I was also planning on adding some encounters with Vsevolod's centaurs in the forest to introduce his name / presence into the equation earlier
Still leaves me very short on XP (unless the groups of Irriseni / centaurs are very large)
What point are you at, by the way? Have they left the Hut yet? Because you could go a couple more rounds of Frost Giant attacks before the Hut attacks and triple or quadruple the XP bonus for that (especially if they drop several giants). Seeing it's one giant a round, it might not overpower them too quickly.
There are some random encounter charts at the back of the book (p. 81). You could look into those. A couple ideas include the Tsolniva Outriders (Tsolniva centaurs who are hiding in the woods and attack anyone who comes across them) or an encounter with the white dragon Thragandor. (Also, don't forget: You can have an encounter flee, and they would still get XPs for it.)
They got to the centaurs in the last session and spectacularly failed on diplomacy both with the scouts and leader - made everyone hostile.
Unfortunately my group had only one pc with diplomacy (or indeed a charisma over 10) after one of the paladins died. And that pc could not speak the right languages.
I think I played it out badly in that I didn't make the hostile centaurs immediately attack. Therefore the rogue pre-empted and attacked first (because the character is useless if it doesn't get sneak)
The paladin was not cool with that (and neither where the rest of the party ) so they surrendered to the centaurs and chained up the rogue.
Went to korak and blew the diplomacy making him hostile too. They were ejected from the camp (with the guide to lead them away), ans I ended the session throughly confused about how to move forward
It all went pear shaped due a very one dimensional part structure (and a return to the good old days of everyone dumping charisma) :-(
Hmm. Actually, that opens up some opportunities. For instance, the dragon Thragandor. If the dragon is seen heading toward an encampment and the centaur guide urges them to stop it... and they do go after it, this allows a reboot of the diplomatic situation with the centaurs. After all, they did drive off (or kill) a dragon that was threatening the centaurs.
Small question: is the Paladin one of the people close to leveling? If so, I'd drop a hint to the player to put a point in Linguistics and also suggest the Feat Cosmopolitan for its two languages. And then perhaps let them level up early - keep them at the lower XPs, but allow them to be 8th level despite the lower XPs.
One other thing to consider is this: the inclusion of two extra players may lessen the threat of not being 8th level. The game is designed for four 15-point built characters. You have six. A good example concerning this is the free module "Dawn of the Scarlet Sun" which is meant for six players of 5th level. It suggests if you only have four players to have them be 6th level. So the group may end up being able to cope better than you think. (Still, giving them a couple encounters to bring them CLOSE to level 8 won't hurt.)
The paladin actually wants to swap out his character because he us fed up of playing the good guy (i know but I think the centaur thing hammered home the restrictions to him in a less than positive way. That and there were originally 2 paladins so he had back up)
My concern is the deadliness of atrosa when combined with my players competence levels. Included in the group is someone playing for the first time (rannger) and two wizards who want to be sorcerors (both seem to only take magic missile and blasty fire spells)
One of the new characters is likely to be a really creepy bard who will not be up to a great deal in combat but would in theory be great rp material (especially with all the oddness in the dungeon)
Oh and both wizards are so staggeringly cowardly you would think they were commoners who would die in one hit.
Both were killed and saved by hero points against logrivich . So if the guide mentions another white Dragon then I imagine they will run as fast as possible in the opposite direction :-(
Hmm. Yeah, I know a chap who was rather frustrated at a fellow player who wanted a blaster-wizard instead of considering how versatile wizards can be (and how beneficial Buffs can be).
What is the Bard's build like? First, never underestimate the power of the Bardic Song! ;) If he's a straight bard, then he's giving a +2 to everyone's to-hit and to-damage with Bardic song. That can be quite handy! Also, Bards tend to do well with Buffs as well, so that creepy bard may end up being the power broker of the group with the ability to ensure everyone else's survival.
Let's see. You've got a Paladin (who may be going away), a Ranger, two Wizards, and a Bard. And an unknown sixth class. ^^;;
I'd assume the Ranger probably is a ranged tactician? (What favored enemies? If he's anti-Fae or anti-Giant, that'll benefit him. Also, did he go with Companion-buffs, or animal companion?)
If the Paladin does end up dropping, suggest to him to build a Diplomat-style character. There are a couple useful classes for diplomats, and they don't have to be goody-two-shoes. Oracles are Charisma-heavy and can be quite handy to have around. For that matter, a simple Fighter can be an effective Diplomat - all the extra Combat Feats means he can take Skill Focus and feats like Alertness or Persuasive and become an effective face for the group.
Six 8th level characters are probably more than 50% tougher than four 8th level characters, so... you may not have to have them be 8th level. Six 7th level characters should be able to handle it, I would think.
I'm thinking of fleshing out vsevolod's backstory to the pcs through some pre artrosa encounters.
I don't want him to merely be someone they hear about once they get to the dungeon and then kill.
With that in mind I am going to I include some of his outriders and potentially even a junior cleric (probably no more giants though as they are quite tough). I assume his followers would either be centaur , giants or demons (can't think of much else that makes the cut)
I'm also thinking of adding his sister as a centaur with some class levels (barbarian I guess) and some templates to represent what happened to her - going with ravenous and broken soul.
Could be quite nasty especially as ravenous grants fast healing 10 to a creature that has beencannibal in the last day (although I feel the pc's should indirectly / unknowingly have a chance to prevent this...)
It would appear that he was performing the ritual to sacrifice the giants to gain the power from his patron to take artrosa
And I guess he is then waiting fir jadrenka to work out what has happened and rush to the defence ...
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What Vsevolod's hoping to accomplish beyond taking Artrosia for Kotschtchie isn't really spelled out anywhere.
My little background additions I'm making for my game (where I'm making Vsevolod mythic) -
1) Kotschtchie is native to Golarion, and has a deep bond to his place of origin. Deep enough that he could've torn open an abyssal rift and created his own worldworld.
2) Baba Yaga recognized the threat and as a massive "screw you" to the Deathless Frost erected Artrosia on top of his birthplace, where it acts as a seal against Kotschtchie.
3) Kotschtchie needs to overcome Artrosia before he can try to reclaim his homeland. Baba Yaga's out of the picture, so he's sent a local elite force - Vsevolod and his cult - to take Artrosia under the radar. Kotschtchie's holding back because he doesn't want to alert various other powers of what he's about to do.
4) Vsevolod's goal is to subvert the Eon Pit, which may be the heart of Artrosia. He's setting up the ritual while his allies guard him. He may need the Warden to die before it can be completed, but that'll be easy enough to arrange once he's set up.
Is the purpose of Artrosa and it's residents spelled out anywhere?
How often does Baba Yaga visit. Because I thought she visited Golarion once a century (or is that just Irrisen?)
Because she has taught Jadrenka who I believe is younger than a century
I am struggling with working out why/how the current residents came to be there. And how they were the ones picked...
As I mention above I am considering replacing some but I can't really get a handle on what to replace them with without an idea of why the current ones are there.
I don't want to add more of vsevolod's followers in their place as there are some places he would not have gone.
Does anyone have any ideas about the population?
And also what sort of other minions Baba Yaga may have / choose to place there. It would seem like corrupted fey are a good shout...?
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Artrosia was established to watch for and ward against Kotschtchie's return to his homeland.
Baba Yaga visits it rarely, but more often than Irrisen. She came by to drop off the keys and the bottled message before going off to Earth.
Most of the residents have a brief description explaining why they're there; they're a mix of willing servants (like the hags) and fools who made bad bargains (like the corrupted nymph). Nearly everything in the place is immortal, as best I can tell.
Jadrenka's age is "several hundred years" old. She's the 11th and presumably longest serving warden, since Artrosia predates Irrisen by a few centuries at least.
I'm still in the market for an alternate Witch Tree riddle. Does anybody have any ideas? I'm thinking some sort of riddle based on the keys the players used to get to Artrosa (lock of hair from a frost giant's beard, plague doctor's mask).
Where might i find the Crone Golem?
i know its not actually in the adventure but i'm rather curious as to what they look like and their stats and CR and all:)
so, no one knows where the Crone golem is from then?
an internet search was no help at all
so, no one knows where the Crone golem is from then?
I haven't read through everything in the module yet and have not come across it, where is the crone golem?
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Where might i find the Crone Golem?
i know its not actually in the adventure but i'm rather curious as to what they look like and their stats and CR and all:)
It doesn't exist - all that's left are its shattered remains. That's why the crone golem was called out as a "unique" construct. Baba Yaga only created one, and it was destroyed before the PCs got there. So if you want a working crone golem, you'll have to come up with its stats yourself!
It doesn't exist - all that's left are its shattered remains. That's why the crone golem was called out as a "unique" construct. Baba Yaga only created one, and it was destroyed before the PCs got there. So if you want a working crone golem, you'll have to come up with its stats yourself!Where might i find the Crone Golem?
i know its not actually in the adventure but i'm rather curious as to what they look like and their stats and CR and all:)
Thats cool:) i thought it might've been from Tome of Horrors or a Wayfinder and might've been cut for space purposes.
mostly just curiosity was why i asked:)
I have only just realised that Jadrenka could give the party a really bad day if they get into a fight with her. I didn't realise some of her spells had a pretty much permanent effect.
Could be constructively a tpk, hamstringing the party what with baleful polymorph , feeblemind and major curse (which the tactics recommend she use)
I admit I wouldn't expect any thing else from an advanced character 3 levels higher than the group.
But with no cleric (for what good it would do) a encounter with her could effectively end the game with there not being facilities (or resources available) to remove the effects...
With this in mind I wonder if the adventure :
a) does enough to discourage conflict with her
b) makes her get hostile too easily..
What are people's thoughts?
Jadrenka could also get squashed in a round. Witches have lousy defenses.
Diplomacy with Jadrenka's relatively easily, right until Marislova gets involved.
Marislova is where it can fall to pieces very abruptly since she (a) doesn't trust Marislova but (b) gets really mad if the party killed Marislova (who is hostile by default).
My party had explored all of the Maiden, most of the Crone, and just started the Mother; they haven't even approached Jadrenka and Marislova's quarters yet. This is a weird and winding dungeon.
Started running this today.
I am really concerned about the alternate routes that can be taken. My group went through to the satyr and he surrendered to them. He told them the hag quarters were in the next room so the group back off and headed into the crypt in the mother (they still think they are in the maiden).
Game finished after witchfire.
I am worried they will take the path without the door head through the crone and then take the nearest door to the penultimate room and get to the eon pit really early (and potentially get squished unless the dice really go their way)
The unpredictable nature of the dungeon makes it even more lethal than usual!
As an aside if they were to somehow win doesn't the dungeon then end leaving them behind track on xp unless they decide to clean the rooms out (which I don't see myself!)
I have a couple of questions. One is connected to my point above about PCs potentially (inadvertently) skipping the majority of the dungeon a getting to vsevolod early.
Would people alter this and have one or both of the frost giant allies alive and no svathurim?
Or if I was to keep it how it was and the PCs beaten and forced to retreat...what would then happen. Surely the two of them will not stay there until the PCs come back
I remember reading a review that criticised the static nature of events in this dungeon (but I am sure it is something most dungeons struggle with). It is something I would want to avoid
But what is Vsevolod actually doing? He summons his ally and is by the Eon Pit. Then what...? What is his next step. I think the book alludes somewhere what he is trying to achieve (cannot find is at the moment - but surely involves destroying artrosa). But it doesn't really clarify how.
Would he attempt to summon more followers of his god to take over the place? I am a little confused but want don't want to leave things static
My other question concerns the Eon pit. It says it has no effect on the Venerable. I assume it means if a venerable person was to enter. But if someone younger is aged to venerable they still get affected (as it specifically says you can die from this).
I note the characters do not have long. 2 rounds per a category gives them about 7 or 8 rounds.
The whole thing would be crippling for martial characters. And as I think I have referred to before, I don't think the nature / danger of the pit is ever even hinted at to the PCs before they reach it....
Have many people played through this yet? How devastating is this dungeon to the group - even if they survive. It strikes me that after all the curses most people would rather their characters die (no matter how much they like them) and replaced just to have more functional characters...
What is the 14 being referenced in the witch tree's riddle?
the witch tree recites the
following riddle:Midnight, Morning, Bright Sun—
Spoke thee with but one.
Accursed now you be,
For he befell the wrath
Of two times seven.
Oh tell me, who is he?
Elvanna. 14th queen of irrisen
Here is the riddle I used.
A lock with no key, yet I allowed freedom.
A beak with no wings, yet I allowed flight.
What were we?
How did you play out the night hag?
It says she will attack unless she overheard the pcs discussing their task.
Did your group really happen to be having the appropriate in character conversation whilst walking through her room?
Because (despite me telling them) my group doesn't rp as much as I would like and tend to trudge through the dungeon not conversing with each other unless an npc has triggered an rp encounter :-(
Thanks for your tips, voideternal. They are very helpful.
I don't think any PC in their right mind would randomly discuss Baba Yaga while exploring empty rooms, precisely because you don't know who's watching. I plan to have Nostafa have "a feeling" about the PCs, and to be really upset about it. She doesn't kill them right away, and really wants to. Instead, she will invisibly ask something to the effect of "Why am I not killing you right now?"