Well, that's actually rather simple, but it's not obvious.
Anybody with an evil reputation will find that nobody will do business with you. Think about it, would YOU deal with someone who has a rep for killing babies, swiping anything not nailed down, etc?
In fact, evil characters rapidly find that they are hunted down by entire kingdoms. Heroes are sent after you, just as if you were an evil dragon or horde of orcs.
Meanwhile, good characters find they are the medieval equivalent of rock stars. They get people welcoming them wherever they go, they get bargains, they get whatever the GM can come up with. Plus, they get to go to Heaven when they die, and if their naturally allotted timespan isn't up, they will find lots of people willing to cough up the moolah to have them resurrected.
All of that is without game mechanics special for good aligned spellcasters. But if you really want that sort of thing, there's a 3.5 book called Book of Exalted Deeds.
I disagree.. it doesn't matter how evil you are, SOMEONE will always do business with you. When everyone else shuns you, even 1 guy will see the potential for mass profit by being THAT guy.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I wouldn't want to go that route as it seems likely to be at least as traumatic, psychically, as Lichdom. Also, it sucks if you are a spellcaster because you would lose all your magical abilities. You can 'siphon' magic from others, but only so much & it is a piddling amount by comparison to what a high-level caster is capable of.
edit: But then I'm not a big fan of transhumanism in the first place.
On the flipside, it makes you really good at Robert Patrick impersonations at parties. ;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I believe that one component of the lichdom process has been described (van Richten?) to be the life of an intelligent being.
That makes lichdom very, very easy. I'm already going to be taking the life of an Intelligent being...
I believe that one component of the lichdom process has been described (van Richten?) to be the life of an intelligent being.That makes lichdom very, very easy. I'm already going to be taking the life of an Intelligent being...
Hell, I do that several times a day when I'm out adventuring and no one is b+!#~ing about it then, but as soon as you decide that one of those people you were going to kill anyways can die in a useful way then you're the monster. Makes me wonder why I bother to protect these peasants sometimes, you know?
Hell, I do that several times a day when I'm out adventuring and no one is b*%*~ing about it then, but as soon as you decide that one of those people you were going to kill anyways can die in a useful way then you're the monster. Makes me wonder why I bother to protect these peasants sometimes, you know?I believe that one component of the lichdom process has been described (van Richten?) to be the life of an intelligent being.That makes lichdom very, very easy. I'm already going to be taking the life of an Intelligent being...
Heheh, yeah. :P
And it's hard to make a lich without it costing a life. I mean...your life. You cease to be living and become undead. If you've gotta sacrifice a living creature, well bloody heck, you don't gotta look far!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Depends, if you are really good and survive the challenges you might actually ascend and become a god yourself as two of my character did in 1E. They are now known as the Twins, Greater God. Of 24 of us that began, 5 of us made it and the rest ended up facing oblivion.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
For villains, immortality is a prize to be won. For heroes, it is a burden to be endured.This is how I run undead paladins.
"When will the work be done?"
An oath never to rest, until the fell powers have been undone forever!
I disagree.. it doesn't matter how evil you are, SOMEONE will always do business with you. When everyone else shuns you, even 1 guy will see the potential for mass profit by being THAT guy.
The nature of Evil alignment is that you know this person will try to cheat, or kill, or whatever they want as soon as they figure they can. Still wanna deal with someone like that? You take your life and livelihood in THEIR hands each time you do it. No sane person would be dumb enough to be okay with that, at least none I have ever heard of, and I happen to be in the psych field.
Do you know what a psychopath is? I do. Check out wikipedia, and then imagine the implications of someone with NO conscience or sense of empathy/sympathy for living creatures, plus toss in some sadism etc.
Most people would argue that these should be locked up, for the good of society itself. Worse, they are highly resistant to any form of treatment.
Its not that bad. Even if someone bothered to figure it out, information doesn't travel that quickly and providing proof is difficult in Pathfinder.
Take a look at the spells in the core rule book, and the magic items. How many ways can you find that transmits information rapidly? Or even just figuring out that you are evil? I can come up with quite a few, most are low level.
Also, even if you take magic out of the equation, it is said that few things can approach the speed of bad news. Rumors are faster than you think, homie. And all it takes is ONE person with a means of detecting alignment or even just watching you do something horrid for that bad news wave to start.
Who ever said Pathfinder needed PROOF? That's the modern day talking in you. You should see pre-Roman systems of determining guilt. Or, read up on the Salem witch trials. Much fun will ensue.
Reincarnate sucks rocks. Ever read the spell?Why? Especially we're talking about a high level planned use of it. None of the temporary penalties matter. Your Str, Dex and Con could change, possibly for the better. What else could be a problem?
Read the spell again. Tell me, do you think the average PC is going to want to change their race?
Hey, what if I am playing an elf Wizard and I get reincarnated as an Orc (effectively losing 4 points to Int, 2 to Dex/Cha/Wis, and gaining 4 useless points of Strength) just as an example?
Reincarnate sucks.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is one thing I liked about D&D 3.5 over Pathfinder -- Potions of Longevity and Elixirs of Youth to prolong life. Though Longevity Potions had a cap.
Also, the Wish spell -- "I wish I were ten years younger" is a quite reasonable wish. So is "I wish I were one year younger" for a spell you cast once every year. Immortality, with the added option to continue aging if you get tired of life.
Or Polymorph Any Object -- if it can turn you into a rock or a tree, it can certainly turn you into a young man (or young woman). Shapechange, but shapechange isn't permanent.
So if you're immortal and good remember to minimize your carbon footprint.
Interestingly, I think this will happen IRL: as technology cracks the ageing process people will actually start thinking in terms longer than the next electoral term.
On a more serious note, that there are spells that can extend life in the game shouldn't be remarkable, nor that they should be available. It's probably one of the first things wizards started researching as soon as they became wizards...
No options for goodies?
Well it was alreadey said you can get immortality but after that go ahead and make your own plane, permanently buff yourself thru out history by abusing the hell outta permanancy. If you look at permanancy it does specify which spells u can make permanant and what it eill cost but honestly if you look at the list you can easily discover the orignal formula for applying permant status to most spells in the game. The only ones you can't apply it to are duration of instantaneous and stuff the GM says is over powered.
|
I am convinced that good deities are jerks. Evil offers all sorts of power, immortality, flexibility of action. Good has to hold to the highest standard, gets to play the underdog that has to run in groups to equal most villains, and almost always die even if they would rather stay on this plane. Do good gods not have the power to keep their people alive or just not give a damn? Do they withhold power because they think it is funny or have none to spare? Do they enjoy setting highest standards and watching mortals fall short while neutral and evil can act much more freely without the divine backhand. Not to mention the paladin. Called to serve heaven with power to smite evil but oh so easy to fall like a damn lawn dart should they even accidentally misstep
|
|
I disagree.. it doesn't matter how evil you are, SOMEONE will always do business with you. When everyone else shuns you, even 1 guy will see the potential for mass profit by being THAT guy.
The nature of Evil alignment is that you know this person will try to cheat, or kill, or whatever they want as soon as they figure they can. Still wanna deal with someone like that? You take your life and livelihood in THEIR hands each time you do it. No sane person would be dumb enough to be okay with that, at least none I have ever heard of, and I happen to be in the psych field.
Do you know what a psychopath is? I do. Check out wikipedia, and then imagine the implications of someone with NO conscience or sense of empathy/sympathy for living creatures, plus toss in some sadism etc.
Most people would argue that these should be locked up, for the good of society itself. Worse, they are highly resistant to any form of treatment.
LE can be easier to deal with than CG. CG might rob you because they think your money has better uses, steal your property because they feel a need to, run off with your kids because they want to become adventurers too, etc. at least the LE guy is going to follow the laws and not screw you over against the laws even if he might be merciless in enforcing them or using them against a lawbreaker.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am convinced that good deities are jerks. Evil offers all sorts of power, immortality, flexibility of action. Good has to hold to the highest standard, gets to play the underdog that has to run in groups to equal most villains, and almost always die even if they would rather stay on this plane. Do good gods not have the power to keep their people alive or just not give a damn? Do they withhold power because they think it is funny or have none to spare? Do they enjoy setting highest standards and watching mortals fall short while neutral and evil can act much more freely without the divine backhand. Not to mention the paladin. Called to serve heaven with power to smite evil but oh so easy to fall like a damn lawn dart should they even accidentally misstep
Good isn't about power, or self-aggrandizing; it's about patience, humility and self-sacrifice. When you die having been basically good, you go to the heaven of your god. Now, that might just be a word we throw around, but think about that: a place where you are immortal in some form as long as you remain, you are eternally happy and said "jerk" god is so powerful that nothing interrupts this for all time unless you and they mutually agree to return you for some further service.
That sounds better than hiding in some dank tomb, waiting for the best murder-hobos to shatter your brittle bones and loot your stuff. Evil is powerful, but short-sighted and selfish. Their hells are routinely escaped in legend and myth so their power is not absolute. Their gods can be cheated out of the souls they're due just as the good ones can. So while evil might be powerful, good has the endurence to go the distance.
It's a long road hero; at its end you will be weary and peniless. I will not promise you the riches and power you see along the path as those are mere tastes of what lays in store. But if you are strong enough to endure and not stumble for these momentary baubles, your reward at the end will be glory and happiness everlasting and I will be waiting there, to embrace you and thank you for all that you've done.
There will be pain, sorrow, and doubt, but let my light guide you through these darker moments. And when we meet at last know that you will have achieved something greater than yourself; you will have mattered and made the world that much better than it was before you.
|
|
I am convinced that good deities are jerks. Evil offers all sorts of power, immortality, flexibility of action. Good has to hold to the highest standard, gets to play the underdog that has to run in groups to equal most villains, and almost always die even if they would rather stay on this plane. Do good gods not have the power to keep their people alive or just not give a damn? Do they withhold power because they think it is funny or have none to spare? Do they enjoy setting highest standards and watching mortals fall short while neutral and evil can act much more freely without the divine backhand. Not to mention the paladin. Called to serve heaven with power to smite evil but oh so easy to fall like a damn lawn dart should they even accidentally misstepGood isn't about power, or self-aggrandizing; it's about patience, humility and self-sacrifice. When you die having been basically good, you go to the heaven of your god. Now, that might just be a word we throw around, but think about that: a place where you are immortal in some form as long as you remain, you are eternally happy and said "jerk" god is so powerful that nothing interrupts this for all time unless you and they mutually agree to return you for some further service.
That sounds better than hiding in some dank tomb, waiting for the best murder-hobos to shatter your brittle bones and loot your stuff. Evil is powerful, but short-sighted and selfish. Their hells are routinely escaped in legend and myth so their power is not absolute. Their gods can be cheated out of the souls they're due just as the good ones can. So while evil might be powerful, good has the endurence to go the distance.
It's a long road hero; at its end you will be weary and peniless. I will not promise you the riches and power you see along the path as those are mere tastes of what lays in store. But if you are strong enough to endure and not stumble for these momentary baubles, your reward at the end will be glory and happiness everlasting...
Rather the gods gave good the power to whip evil ass on the mortal planes and make life better there than struggle suffer and die to end up maybe existing in some form in another world. Do the good gods not have the ability to make power to do good available?
There is that little something about power and doing good...
Not likely. If they do become unaging (itself a VERY seriously improbable event), they will quickly find themselves unable to deal with an increasingly high-speed society, and out of work. Their saving grace has been that they get new people through inheriting. Some f%*! things up of course, but enough remain to prosper in the next generation. This will make them do all they can to slow the world down... but the change has already gone too far.
|
So if you're immortal and good remember to minimize your carbon footprint.Interestingly, I think this will happen IRL: as technology cracks the ageing process people will actually start thinking in terms longer than the next electoral term.
Actually, you will notice that with lifespans increasing, people think in shorter and shorter terms.
That is because, when anyone's life is likely to be short, the fate of the group is far more important than the fate of the individual. You will start working on things that will benefit the group even long after you are dead because odds are you will be dead soon anyhow.
This does not apply anymore.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"Can you learn this power?"
"Not from a Jedi..."
I disagree.. it doesn't matter how evil you are, SOMEONE will always do business with you. When everyone else shuns you, even 1 guy will see the potential for mass profit by being THAT guy.
The nature of Evil alignment is that you know this person will try to cheat, or kill, or whatever they want as soon as they figure they can. Still wanna deal with someone like that? You take your life and livelihood in THEIR hands each time you do it. No sane person would be dumb enough to be okay with that, at least none I have ever heard of, and I happen to be in the psych field.
Do you know what a psychopath is? I do. Check out wikipedia, and then imagine the implications of someone with NO conscience or sense of empathy/sympathy for living creatures, plus toss in some sadism etc.
Most people would argue that these should be locked up, for the good of society itself. Worse, they are highly resistant to any form of treatment.
Not all evil is Chaotic Evil/Stupid. There would definately be people who would deal with the evil people for a potentially higher profit.
If you still find this hard to believe... look at the real world. There are PLENTY of people/companies that are cosidered "evil" or unscrupulous that have lots of business contacts/buyers.
You don't need to be a psychopath to want profit, and if "no one" wants to deal with "joe the evil wizard" and he's paying good cash; I would think at least 1 merchant would deal with him.
The only way, I could see, that no one at all would want to deal with him, is if he is murdering anyone/everyone who crosses his path.
This is one thing I liked about D&D 3.5 over Pathfinder -- Potions of Longevity and Elixirs of Youth to prolong life. Though Longevity Potions had a cap.
Also, the Wish spell -- "I wish I were ten years younger" is a quite reasonable wish. So is "I wish I were one year younger" for a spell you cast once every year. Immortality, with the added option to continue aging if you get tired of life.
Or Polymorph Any Object -- if it can turn you into a rock or a tree, it can certainly turn you into a young man (or young woman). Shapechange, but shapechange isn't permanent.
Yeah, but back when, casting Wish cost you years off your lifespan.
Mummification?
Then invest in a whole lot of anti-fire protection.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
i once had an idea for a sickly bard who was going to study religion for a bit, and become a lich as a means to bypass her illness. not the rotting kind, the porcelain doll kind. the kind that could pass off as a young human to the untrained eye, even if it was a little creepy.
she was also some count's niece and wanted to guarantee her survival long enough to succeed her uncle.
she wasn't evil, merely neutral with a hint of selfishness and preservationism.
Dying and going to Heaven?
Immortality without becoming undead is available to anyone with money though:
Your real body will be inside a bottle and does not require any food or air, nor does it age. You can Magic Jar into your Simulacrum for hours on end, since the spell doesn't require any Line of Effect and the creature cannot disobey an order never to resist.
- Get a ring that'll cast Magic Jar once a day. Better yet: get two.
- Have a Simulacrum made of whatever body you'd like.
- Have the Binding (Minimus Containment) spell cast on you.
Neat. I've never heard of that before, but it's kind of like a non-evil way to create a phylactery(only instead of storing your soul, it stores your body).
There is the drawback of only having half your hitpoints, though.
And a good Dispel would ruin your day.
I disagree.. it doesn't matter how evil you are, SOMEONE will always do business with you. When everyone else shuns you, even 1 guy will see the potential for mass profit by being THAT guy.
The nature of Evil alignment is that you know this person will try to cheat, or kill, or whatever they want as soon as they figure they can. Still wanna deal with someone like that? You take your life and livelihood in THEIR hands each time you do it. No sane person would be dumb enough to be okay with that, at least none I have ever heard of, and I happen to be in the psych field.
Do you know what a psychopath is? I do. Check out wikipedia, and then imagine the implications of someone with NO conscience or sense of empathy/sympathy for living creatures, plus toss in some sadism etc.
Most people would argue that these should be locked up, for the good of society itself. Worse, they are highly resistant to any form of treatment.
Plenty of people dealt with Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Hirohito, Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden and Farrah Aidid.
Not to even mention weapons dealers, slavers, drug dealers or Govt. Politicians.Just because someone is evil doesn't mean they are straight out "Psychopaths". The world is full of evil and people deal with it on a daily basis in one form or another.
So like Piccolo wrote, someone will always deal with the darkness, if they believe the gain is worth while.
Evil doesn't necessarily mean that the guy eats babies for breakfast, he just might be more self serving then the status quo is comfortable with.
There are numerous lesser and greater forms of evil.
I once had an idea for a sickly bard who was going to study religion for a bit, and become a lich as a means to bypass her illness. Not the rotting kind, the porcelain doll kind. The kind that could pass off as a young human to the untrained eye, even if it was a little creepy.
She was also some count's niece and wanted to guarantee her survival long enough to succeed her uncle.
She wasn't evil, merely neutral with a hint of selfishness and preservationism.
My friend is currently playing a Lawful Neutral Necromancer who seeks to become a lich so he won't die until his research is complete.
His goal in life is to learn how life, death and the passing of souls work and creating a grand tome of knowledge detailing such things. He worships Nethys and is fond of Ancient Osiriani lore, refuses to raise undead except out of enemy corpses (he is strongly against desecrating graves as well), and even has two apprentices studying necromancy as per his instructions. It was his idea to make allies of the various "monster" races of the River Kingdoms (kobolds, lizardfolk, centaurs) and he's been just as reasonable as the Lawful Good Dwarf Cleric and Chaotic Good Catfolk Ranger.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Can you learn this power?"
"Not from a Jedi..."
Granted he was lying...
LE can be easier to deal with than CG. CG might rob you because they think your money has better uses, steal your property because they feel a need to, run off with your kids because they want to become adventurers too, etc. at least the LE guy is going to follow the laws and not screw you over against the laws even if he might be merciless in enforcing them or using them against a lawbreaker.
The nature of Good alignments precludes this possibility. Meanwhile, the nature of Evil alignments virtually guarantees they'll screw over everyone around them eventually. It is simply a matter of time. The LE dude will just do it legally, or illegally if he figures nobody important will notice.
That said, I never was a fan of most Chaotic alignments, because of their short attention spans. Their plans tend to be concentrated on how they themselves feel here and now, not how their actions will affect the rest of society.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Granted he was lying..."Can you learn this power?"
"Not from a Jedi..."
Exactly. :)
One solution that is class neutral and alignment neutral is having someone or something to cast reincarnation for you. An intelligent magic item with a purpose can do this, and a cohort or follower from the Leadership feat can do it (though followers are limited to 6th level, so they may need a scroll or staff to do so).And this is not something that a proper Druid should do. They may cast reincarnate if they figure that a soul should have another spin around the wheel, but not as a recurring set of spells for some bastard who won't submit to the natural cycle of things.Witches can Reincarnate too.
Without any of those pesky ethical issues.
Even better, certain witches can FORCE REINCARNATION UPON YOU. One moment, elderly male human wiz/20. Next moment, young female beaver wiz/20.
Note that Suspended Animation from Astral Travel does not mean you don't age. Furthermore, if you put your body in temporal stasis, that simply means you are put in temporal stasis with it...which is kind of self-defeating. An astral form doesn't make you immune to that stuff.
There's the juju witch who can steal someone's body and make it their own. That's not exactly fun. There's also psionic mind switching, or whatever the magical equivalent is.
I don't believe getting transformed into an outsider at level 20 makes you immortal. All it does is make you an outsider. Is immortality part and parcel of becoming an outsider?
What other weird ways were there? Becoming a Chosen of a Deity would do it. Green Star mages turned themselves into constructs. There was the one class that made you a half-fiend, and another that turned you into a Cthulthuesque horror.
Technically, you can probably live forever on the Astral Plane, but as soon as you leave all that time catches up with you, and pfffft.
It's not in the template, so I'm pretty sure becoming a half-dragon doesn't do anything for your lifespan, more's the pity, even if your type is dragon.
==Aelryinth
I thought the silver Chord only trailed something like three feet and only while on the astral plane?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you're doing the astral projection trick probably good to have a few clones ready to go just in case.
|
|
LE can be easier to deal with than CG. CG might rob you because they think your money has better uses, steal your property because they feel a need to, run off with your kids because they want to become adventurers too, etc. at least the LE guy is going to follow the laws and not screw you over against the laws even if he might be merciless in enforcing them or using them against a lawbreaker.The nature of Good alignments precludes this possibility. Meanwhile, the nature of Evil alignments virtually guarantees they'll screw over everyone around them eventually. It is simply a matter of time. The LE dude will just do it legally, or illegally if he figures nobody important will notice.
That said, I never was a fan of most Chaotic alignments, because of their short attention spans. Their plans tend to be concentrated on how they themselves feel here and now, not how their actions will affect the rest of society.
Robin Hood is often cast as the poster child of CG. if he thought you had too much money it was taken and if you resist arrow ti the face. Many "Heroes" pick up teen fanboy/girl sidekicks that might be seen as kidnapping. LE does not HAVE to screw anyone over, they just will not hesitate if you cross them. Be polite to Dr. Lecter and he is charming and fascinating, wrong him he might eat your face.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lesser Astral Projection raises the option of near immortality as early as 9th level. Earlier with a scroll.
The spell has no duration and places your body in stasis. If you had a secure location you could safely adventure without aging or risk of death.
Hmm: lesser astral projection is PFS legal. Interesting. I could safely leave my body in the grand lodge in Absolom.