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Sure, there's some number inflation, but most of the claims of it and the necessity of having these bonus items is overblown. You don't need all six and you don't need to pursue them to the exclusion of other, more flavorful items. Yet that's exactly what you tend to see.
With all due respect, I don't think you are understanding my point.
The bonuses given by the "big six" items are baked into the challenge ratings. If you want to fight "appropriate level" challenges then if you don't have them, you are probably going to lose.
Sure you can redefine the abilities, hit points and combat values of all the highest level monsters in the bestiary, but at that point you may as well write your own game.
If you want to use the rules as written you have to give the PCs the magic items you are complaining about. Magic shops are a means to an end, not the end itself. You are complaining about the end.
That's kinda my point: Gandalf doesn't have time to sit around making stuff; he's too busy saving the world.
I can think of few things less magical than turning a mighty wizard into a tradesman, though that is exactly what 3E and its ilk have done.
He had plenty of time. He made "Fireworks" which were essentially magic, and took time to make. Also, Sauramon always complained about Gandalf spending too much of his time "smoking the Halfling's Leaf". Gandalf in the books was always moving hecticly, but he mentioned he had plenty of time prior, and now he has none.
So he had time to do it. Just not when Action was needed. The Books would have been boring if we saw his life when the world wasn't in immediate peril.
And more to the Point, Sauron handed out a Bunch of Magic Rings to various people. Just think of the XP loss he would have had in prior editions to make those powerful rings. Does that make it "More Realistic"?
And to address the point of "Magical Items Don't Degrade"
Sure they do. Just depends which ones we're talking about.
Potions
Scrolls
Wands
Wonderous Items like Necklaces of Fireballs
Magical Ammunition
And assorted other thingsThese all degrade, and could allow a Small Magic Shop the ability to survive, just on these.
A local Village's "Magic Shop" is going to sell things like Cure Light Wound Potions, or Bull's Strength Potions, because those things MIGHT get purchased by the locals.
Add to that the fact that unless your 1 adventuring party is the only one in the world, wouldn't other groups sell stuff? And why couldn't the party then buy them?
magic shops can also sell components, familiars ( I sold three geckos this week alone!) herbs, good luck charms etc. I mean It's not just going to be stocked with what PC's specifically want, waiting for mercenaries of fortune to just happen by in order to put food on the table.
The point is that Tolkien's answer (regarding the eagles) was kind of lame. He took the time to explain the elves misgivings and he clearly stated that Tom had zero desire for the ring and that it had no sway over him whatsoever. But with the eagles, there's nothing.
It's entirely possible that I missed the passage, in the book, where he talks about the eagles and why they won't help. If it's there, then okay. But it's not (to my knowledge). And that makes the eagle's lack of interest an afterthought. They were never going to be interested enough to help in the saving of Middle Earth. But... in the Hobbit, well that they could be bothered with. Bird brains, I guess...
I agree that it is lame. And it's actually not in the books, it's in Tolkien's notes and interviews when he was asked. But that still makes it canon. Tolkien didn't make it up on the spot, he thought about it and decided against it. And again I stress that the idea that eagles could fly unopposed into Mordor is silly. And if you really WANT to explain why Gandalf didn't ask Gwahir to fly him to Mordor, maybe he didn't want Gwahir to kill him and take the ring for his own. After all Tolkien describes Gwahir and his kind as rather ruthless and bloodthirsty. Why wouldn't they take the ring for themselves, only to be betrayed by it? That's sort of what the ring does.
Lameness exists in even the best books. There's always some thing that it's just more effort than it's worth when you discover it to rewrite around it. I know, I'm on the edge of finishing a novel right now and there are half a dozen things that I am still working on and I doubt I'll ever get them all perfect.
One last time I will try to make my point. When people say "Why didn't Gandalf just fly an eagle into Mordor" as if it is some sort of blindingly obvious plot hole that silly old Tolkien overlooked, that's not the case. Tolkien thought about it. He decided his eagles wouldn't do it. He didn't explain why. Maybe they just didn't care. Maybe...
OH so glad there was no Bombadil in the movies, I consider it an "optional" entry in the book when I read it, an option I never choose.
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This one is important to me. I like making unconventional builds. Often they rely on specific magic items. For instance, my dex based natural attacker would suffer considerably without an agile amulet of mighty fists.A game where magic shops allow PCs to buy desirable items that fit their concept is a game where players are empowered and concepts are achievable. A game where players are at the mercy of a GM who manipulates the world so that certain things are available and certain things are not is a world where players are at the mercy of the GM to achieve their conceptual goals.
So we throw out the flavor just so you can have that super specialty build that requires that super specialty equipment.
Gotcha.
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Magic Item Marts are a blight to a campaign.
Let's look at a few reasons why.
1: They essentially become expensive common items. You might as well go with 4th edition's design and put all magic items in the PHB.
2: Everyone's got em: Basically everyone you meet will have a magic item because of how readily available they have become. Over the years magic shops will have been raided and caravans with shipment would have been attacked and all the goods stolen which in turn would be sold and distributed amongst the wider population. It will become a magic item vs magic item kind of campaign. You will have overlords, bandits, thugs, masterminds etc arming themselves to the teeth which in turn the guards and militia will end up doing the same thing to bring themselves to an even footing.
The game has essentially turned into a series of finding that just right combo of race, class, feat, and magic items that the player will use to defeat the encounter as quickly as possible so the game can come to a close in order for the next one to begin.
You might as well put magic items into the standard gear column of the PHB and enable themto purchase the items at the start of the campaign.
Edit: It becomes an arms race.
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As dar as magic shops go the best solution that I have seen in my 35+ years of gaming was Multi versial trading company. Most of the items in MTC were sold to MTC by Player characters of the severak campains
that our GM ran. He handed out hand drawn magic items with the items powers on the back of the card. You could trade or buy any magic item that had been sold to MTC on rare occasions you could comision items from MTC thoose items took as long as the GM felt was right. This system wored very well.
The problem that I have with magic shops is most high level casters 8th + would not want someone messing with thier Staffs wand etc as thier items are thiers and arcane csters are a pataniod bunch of people and would not trust some magic merchant to craft there magic devices.
Pathfinder has not bothered to fix the broken item creaton rules from 3.x this is one of the big things that need to be fixed IMO.
Gygax had a magic item shop in his Gord novel. And there is a great PDF by rite publishing with a flavourful shop. (Forgot the name...)
It's anything but dull if you play it right and make the available items specific and interesting.
Otoh If you can walk in and buy from the prd list over the counter that I a bit more bland IMHO.
Also I see custom item or even spell acquisition as an opportunity to interact with the game world: see this excellent example of a high level wizard acquiring some items in his downtime. (Iirc the same wizard later bought a custom weapon by travelling to the city of brass.)
I love magic item shops. Both as a player and a GM.
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And to the Off Topic thing about medieval..while there are "spicier" settings like desert wastelands and oriental ruins they never really advance beyond a medieval template. Otherwise they become more modern or sci-fi.
Necessity is the mother of all invention. In a world where magic ca achieve whatever task you want, technology has not need to advance. What's more, what research is being done is going into more magic, or defences against it.
Look at energy resources in our planet. We've known for quite some time that carbon based fuels are a finite resource. N one did much about it though, since we already had the fossil fuels, and hey where easy to harvest. Now things are looking a little more grim on that front and prices are starting to rise, suddenly all sorts of folks are looking at alternative energy sources and being taken seriously by governments.
In pathfinder, no one needs go beyond the metal sword and plate armour, because it still works fine.
Take it a step further, maybe magic only works in certain ways, and more advanced tech interferes with that. I believe the guns in the worlds come out of a magically dead zone after all.
The point of all this is, don't paint Golarion with the narrow perceptions of our world and tell people magic shops don't make sense because, you know, medieval stuff. I'd be surprised if there weren't communities that traded in nothing but magic.
As much as this will get me yelled at, I reckon the Harry Potter world of magic is closer to how Golarion would be than what most folks think. At the least the parts like diagonl alley and hogwarts itself, not all the muggle stuff.
Sigh, iPad has made some grammatical errors with its auto correct, sorry folks.
Cheers
While you're at it, why don't you ask why Tom Bombadil didn't take the ring to Mordor? Or Glorfindel? Or Gandalf himself? The answer is because the more power you had, the more the ring tempted you. Thus it...
No, he answered Tom too: Tom wouldn't be affected by the ring (authors' own words). But Tom was too lazy to care about the rest of the world.
And more to the Point, Sauron handed out a Bunch of Magic Rings to various people. Just think of the XP loss he would have had in prior editions to make those powerful rings. Does that make it "More Realistic"?
And to address the point of "Magical Items Don't Degrade"
Sure they do. Just depends which ones we're talking about.
EXP gain not los, in 1E and 2E you gained XP when you created magic items.
It was 3E that tried to rein in magic item creation by adding XP loss.
Magic Item Marts are a blight to a campaign.
It's nice to see you avoiding the hyperbole.
Let's look at a few reasons why.
1: They essentially become expensive common items. You might as well go with 4th edition's design and put all magic items in the PHB.
"Expensive" and "common" are pretty much mutually exclusive in game world terms. Anything "expensive" will necessarily be reserved for rich merchants or the landed gentry. The fact that they exist and can be purchased does not define them as "common" or else Lear Jets would be "common".
Also, since you brought it up, 4th edition actually has defined the rarity of magic items individually, from common through artifact. The majority of items are common, but the rarer items are more powerful. Which is one of the things magic shop critics say is needed. 4e has that.
2: Everyone's got em: Basically everyone you meet will have a magic item because of how readily available they have become. Over the years magic shops will have been raided and caravans with shipment would have been attacked and all the goods stolen which in turn would be sold and distributed amongst the wider population. It will become a magic item vs magic item kind of campaign. You will have overlords, bandits, thugs, masterminds etc arming themselves to the teeth which in turn the guards and militia will end up doing the same thing to bring themselves to an even footing.
The only thing I have to say about this is that if it's my campaign world, it's my campaign world, and your opinion of how it should be is pretty much totally irrelevant except as an exercise in theorycrafting.
The game has essentially turned into a series of finding that just right combo of race, class, feat, and magic items that the player will use to defeat the encounter as quickly as possible so the game can come to a close in order for the next one to begin.
Funny, I have magic shops in my campaigns and this does not even remotely describe the behavior of my players.
You might as well put magic items into the standard gear column of the PHB and enable them to purchase the items at the start of the campaign.
Edit: It becomes an arms race.
It's an arms race regardless Shallowsoul. As I have pointed out several times now, having magic items of an appropriate level for at least the "big six" is required to be competitive. Magic shops are just a way to acquire them. Since you need them anyway then if the player character can't purchase them then they are at the mercy of the GM arbitrarily distributing them through fiat or through forcing the PC to quest to attain them. So in the end it boils down to a question of who owns the player's character concept and build. The player or the GM. Frankly I don't care to beg my GM to please, please, please drop that +3 shocking longbow that my character needs so much. And in terms of verisimilitude there isn't much that makes me roll my eyes as much as the "amazing coincidence" that the party just happened to find that item the rogue has been whining about for the past three months of game time.
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Glad you understand. Its nice to see other groups take a similar view to ours!This one is important to me. I like making unconventional builds. Often they rely on specific magic items. For instance, my dex based natural attacker would suffer considerably without an agile amulet of mighty fists.A game where magic shops allow PCs to buy desirable items that fit their concept is a game where players are empowered and concepts are achievable. A game where players are at the mercy of a GM who manipulates the world so that certain things are available and certain things are not is a world where players are at the mercy of the GM to achieve their conceptual goals.
So we throw out the flavor just so you can have that super specialty build that requires that super specialty equipment.
Gotcha.
So, if a player has a desire to play a unique concept that requires a specific item or couple of items to achieve then Shallowsoul and Johnlocke believe that player should be forced to play a more common concept or else be completely at the mercy of the GM to manipulate the campaign so that the particular item or item drop randomly, or else the entire party is roped into a quest for the one PC to attain the items they want?
How is this anything but "my way or the highway" by the GM?
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So, if a player has a desire to play a unique concept that requires a specific item or couple of items to achieve then Shallowsoul and Johnlocke believe that player should be forced to play a more common concept or else be completely at the mercy of the GM to manipulate the campaign so that the particular item or item drop randomly, or else the entire party is roped into a quest for the one PC to attain the items they want?
How is this anything but "my way or the highway" by the GM?
Personally I don't like the way magic items become a part of the planned character build and therefore certain items must be available for purchase or supplied by the GM for some character builds to be viable.
Unfortunately it's part of the system design. That's the way the game is supposed to work.When it bothers me enough, I go to another system where either gear doesn't play the same crucial role it does in 3.0/PF or one where it's actually built into the character more directly - you buy gear with character points or something.
jeff, if you have run across any of my posts on the subject of the awful brokenness of magic items in Pathfinder you'd see that I agree with you totally. The magic item system is a mess from concept through the last errata and everything in between. The game is currently designed so that you have to have magic items and those magic items have to scale as you level up. It's baked into the rules.
While I would love to see Paizo fix the brokenness of the magic item system from top to bottom, Paizo developers on these forums have explicitly stated that Paizo has no plans to do that.
So we are left playing a game which depends on a magic item system that is broken. And in that game system the only way to achieve specific goals is with specific magic items. That can be as simple as "I need a weapon that delivers shocking damage because I'm an electrical based concept" to the amulet of mighty fists build described above.
Those who sneer at the magic shop and insist that the only way to achieve the proper "atmosphere" for the game is to have magic items be rare and difficult to attain are pursuing their own personal idea at the expense of players who may not share that same idea. Whether intentional or not the end result is that the players are at the mercy of the GM for the most basic items they desire to play the game the way they want to play it. It is very hard for me not to eventually view this as a GM control issue more than a game atmospherics issue.
I have said before that in my mind the game is a social contract between the GM and the players. The GM owns the world and the player owns the character. The availability of magic items is the first and most important intersection of player/GM ownership. GMs who tightly control the availability of magic items are restricting the options of players to equip their characters as they see fit. Those GMs can make whatever excuse they want to for their behavior, but in the end it boils down to exerting control over the players' domain.
I'm not sure I'd say broken.
I think it largely fits the design criteria. It does roughly what they want. I just don't particularly like that goal.
Well, we agree on that anyway. But I still think it's broken from start to finish. Pretty much everything about magic items is rampant with exploits, abuse, confusion and arguments. How do you create them? How much should you sell them for? Why can't you make tons of them and get rich? How do you create CUSTOM magic items?...
A large portion of the cheese in this game is associated with magic item synergies with obscure class builds. Another huge chunk of cheese is associated with creating custom magic items.
And my biggest problem with the whole system is that magic items overshadow individual character abilities. At the highest levels you simply have to have magic stuff hanging off of every body part or you will fall behind, no matter how much you trained, studied or devoted yourself to your deity.
The bonuses given by the "big six" items are baked into the challenge ratings. If you want to fight "appropriate level" challenges then if you don't have them, you are probably going to lose.Didn't Trailblazer disprove this, at least insofar as an analysis of the game mechanics goes?
Heh, lots of people claim to prove or disprove lots of things. That doesn't make it so.
If I were an entreupenurial caster wanting to open a "magic mart" here's how I'd do it.
Have multiple locations, but a centralized "vault" with appropriate security.
Each location has someone/something capable of casting permanent image. Simulacrum would do nicely.
Each location has a ledger with what's available, complete with "picture" and description of effect. The ledgers could be updated magically or mundanely, whatever works.
As often as needed the permanent image is altered to represent the full range of items available. Customers could even interact, though it'd all be illusionary. I'd probably have some of the cheaper more common items on hand. The kind that wouldn't be a devestating loss if they came up stolen.
If you wanted to buy an item you put a portion down (let's say 10%) and showed proof that you had the remainser. then arranged delivery. Depending on the specifics this could take hours minutes or days. Frankly if I had access to the 9th level version of demiplane I'd set up a bunch of portals for just this purpose.
To sell an item it must first be evaluated then upon verification the good is delivered.
Congratulations! For a relatively minimal setup fee you have a global chain of magic marts with a relatively low chance of being robbed. Specifics may vary, but anyone with a halfway decent int could minimize risk.
Edit: I could see the church of Abatar doing something like this.
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I think magic shops are a fantastic way to drop plot hooks.
"Why yes, I absolutely can custom craft that for you, but I will need thirty gryphon toenail clippings, and I'm afraid I'm fresh out. Here's a map."
I think magic shops are a fantastic way to drop plot hooks.
"Why yes, I absolutely can custom craft that for you, but I will need thirty gryphon toenail clippings, and I'm afraid I'm fresh out. Here's a map."
"These pigs don't have livers?!? How did they stay alive?!?"
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If I were an entreupenurial caster wanting to open a "magic mart" here's how I'd do it.
Have multiple locations, but a centralized "vault" with appropriate security.
Each location has someone/something capable of casting permanent image. Simulacrum would do nicely.
Each location has a ledger with what's available, complete with "picture" and description of effect. The ledgers could be updated magically or mundanely, whatever works.
As often as needed the permanent image is altered to represent the full range of items available. Customers could even interact, though it'd all be illusionary. I'd probably have some of the cheaper more common items on hand. The kind that wouldn't be a devestating loss if they came up stolen.
If you wanted to buy an item you put a portion down (let's say 10%) and showed proof that you had the remainser. then arranged delivery. Depending on the specifics this could take hours minutes or days. Frankly if I had access to the 9th level version of demiplane I'd set up a bunch of portals for just this purpose.
To sell an item it must first be evaluated then upon verification the good is delivered.
Congratulations! For a relatively minimal setup fee you have a global chain of magic marts with a relatively low chance of being robbed. Specifics may vary, but anyone with a halfway decent int could minimize risk.
Edit: I could see the church of Abatar doing something like this.
Coffee, take this concept and add custom magic boxes that teleport the contents to unique destination boxes and you pretty much have recreated my major magic item merchandising company in my campaign world. Beyond this, they offer a "finders fee" to any magic shop who wants to purchase one of the teleport boxes and who can sell items from their inventory to a purchaser.
It is a high-end magic item shop, they don't sell potions or basic magic weapons and armor. But if you want something special, that's where you go.
It's print/purchase only. The pay-for-download can be found over at RPGNow, and I thought there was a POD over at Lulu, but I can't seem to locate it at the moment.Heh, lots of people claim to prove or disprove lots of things. That doesn't make it so.The bonuses given by the "big six" items are baked into the challenge ratings. If you want to fight "appropriate level" challenges then if you don't have them, you are probably going to lose.Didn't Trailblazer disprove this, at least insofar as an analysis of the game mechanics goes?By that token, saying "that doesn't make it so" doesn't make their claim not so, either.
Let me rephrase the question. Trailblazer says that the "big six," while not totally unnecessary, aren't really as important in facing CR-appropriate encounters as a lot of people seem to think. They back this up mathematically. Can you find fault with, or otherwise disprove, their conclusions (ideally without resorting to anecdotes)?
No, because I don't know what their conclusions are, other than what you just said.
Do you have a link to this? Or is it print/purchase only?
I'm not interested in purchasing some so-called proof of how the game works Alzrius. And to suggest that a commercial product that you have to pay for somehow "proves" something about Pathfinder is sort of pointless since the vast majority of gamers aren't going to purchase it.
But maybe you can help me by giving me a short summary of how a 20th level fighter is going to beat down the adamantine golem or a ghost with a simple iron longsword.
I think magic shops are a fantastic way to drop plot hooks.
"Why yes, I absolutely can custom craft that for you, but I will need thirty gryphon toenail clippings, and I'm afraid I'm fresh out. Here's a map."
This is perfect.
There needs to be a balance. The Magi-mart is when the Dm says "open up the book and buy whatever for see written there"
The next two hours are consumed by out of game perusing and customizing of magic items.
"I must have X magic item to realize my build" is kinda silly. How does your character know such an item exists or is possible to make, do the joneses have one? Was he allowed to try it out?
You're looking at game mechanics and deciding you need that to get the mechanical synergy totally skipping over the acquisition/discovery process.
I have no problem with the player having his character seek out ways to be more effective especially after a harrowing defeat in some quest; but relying on an item for a build is assuming all these things are just available for your convenience.
"Oh no the DM is controlling me" no... he's controlling the world, that's HIS job. You control your character, and as far as this game works, thats the ONLY thing you get to do.
It's not that you will never get your orb of awesome sauce, just that you cant simply wander in to the store to acquire it the first time you get enough money, like it's a pony.
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After reading this thread, I have determined one thing.
No one agrees on the matter.
So, let's stop the "I'm playing right and you play wrong" mentality and just say that everyone has different opinions.
If I were an entreupenurial caster wanting to open a "magic mart" here's how I'd do it.
Have multiple locations, but a centralized "vault" with appropriate security.
Each location has someone/something capable of casting permanent image. Simulacrum would do nicely.
Each location has a ledger with what's available, complete with "picture" and description of effect. The ledgers could be updated magically or mundanely, whatever works.
As often as needed the permanent image is altered to represent the full range of items available. Customers could even interact, though it'd all be illusionary. I'd probably have some of the cheaper more common items on hand. The kind that wouldn't be a devestating loss if they came up stolen.
If you wanted to buy an item you put a portion down (let's say 10%) and showed proof that you had the remainser. then arranged delivery. Depending on the specifics this could take hours minutes or days. Frankly if I had access to the 9th level version of demiplane I'd set up a bunch of portals for just this purpose.
To sell an item it must first be evaluated then upon verification the good is delivered.
Congratulations! For a relatively minimal setup fee you have a global chain of magic marts with a relatively low chance of being robbed. Specifics may vary, but anyone with a halfway decent int could minimize risk.
Edit: I could see the church of Abatar doing something like this.
Coffee, take this concept and add custom magic boxes that teleport the contents to unique destination boxes and you pretty much have recreated my major magic item merchandising company in my campaign world. Beyond this, they offer a "finders fee" to any magic shop who wants to purchase one of the teleport boxes and who can sell items from their inventory to a purchaser.
It is a high-end magic item shop, they don't sell potions or basic magic weapons and armor. But if you want something special, that's where you go.
I was trying to stay away from custom stuff, but magic teleporting boxes would work too. Or any number of other custom things too.
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I think magic shops are a fantastic way to drop plot hooks.
"Why yes, I absolutely can custom craft that for you, but I will need thirty gryphon toenail clippings, and I'm afraid I'm fresh out. Here's a map."
This is perfect.
There needs to be a balance. The Magi-mart is when the Dm says "open up the book and buy whatever for see written there"
The next two hours are consumed by out of game perusing and customizing of magic items.
"I must have X magic item to realize my build" is kinda silly. How does your character know such an item exists or is possible to make, do the joneses have one? Was he allowed to try it out?
You're looking at game mechanics and deciding you need that to get the mechanical synergy totally skipping over the acquisition/discovery process.
I have no problem with the player having his character seek out ways to be more effective especially after a harrowing defeat in some quest; but relying on an item for a build is assuming all these things are just available for your convenience.
"Oh no the DM is controlling me" no... he's controlling the world, that's HIS job. You control your character, and as far as this game works, thats the ONLY thing you get to do.
It's not that you will never get your orb of awesome sauce, just that you cant simply wander in to the store to acquire it the first time you get enough money, like it's a pony.
The tone of most of these messages is interesting. The sneering comments about "orb of awesome sauce" or similar comments about "player entitlement" or things like that are very interesting.
"How would your character know that a sword can be enchanted with the "furious" property, huh? You tell me!"
"Um... OK, my character is a FIGHTER, meaning that he TRAINED for years on the use of WEAPONS with master weapons experts who GAVE HIM A LIST of the known enchantments that he might be interested in some day, because, you know, being an expert on weapons and all, he KNOWS that, and me being in fighter school and all, magical enchantments 101 was one of the required courses.
Y'know what I find interesting in all this? I have a magic shoppe in my game, even thought the players don't pronounce it that way; they use the French word: Church.
Y'see, they got in a scrape and were nearby this major city, so they headed to a temple. Here they got all healed up and said "wow thanks; can we get some of this to go?" the cleric there said "Sure...that'll be 50 GP" or something like that, only wiser.
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Magic Item Marts are a blight to a campaign.It's nice to see you avoiding the hyperbole.
Let's look at a few reasons why.
1: They essentially become expensive common items. You might as well go with 4th edition's design and put all magic items in the PHB.
"Expensive" and "common" are pretty much mutually exclusive in game world terms. Anything "expensive" will necessarily be reserved for rich merchants or the landed gentry. The fact that they exist and can be purchased does not define them as "common" or else Lear Jets would be "common".
Also, since you brought it up, 4th edition actually has defined the rarity of magic items individually, from common through artifact. The majority of items are common, but the rarer items are more powerful. Which is one of the things magic shop critics say is needed. 4e has that.
2: Everyone's got em: Basically everyone you meet will have a magic item because of how readily available they have become. Over the years magic shops will have been raided and caravans with shipment would have been attacked and all the goods stolen which in turn would be sold and distributed amongst the wider population. It will become a magic item vs magic item kind of campaign. You will have overlords, bandits, thugs, masterminds etc arming themselves to the teeth which in turn the guards and militia will end up doing the same thing to bring themselves to an even footing.The only thing I have to say about this is that if it's my campaign world, it's my campaign world, and your opinion of how it should be is pretty much totally irrelevant except as an exercise in theorycrafting.
The game has essentially turned into a series of finding that just right combo of race, class, feat, and magic items that the player will use to defeat the encounter as quickly as possible so the game can come to a close in order for the next one to begin.Funny, I have magic shops in my...
I design my worlds to be consistent and "alive" per se. I don't run the "this is only supposed to happen to the players" or "only the players can take advantage of this".
If there are tons of magic item shops exist then a logical and realistic scenario is going to happen like I mentioned above. My worlds exist and continue to function outside the PC's, it's not the world revolving around the PCs.
That is how I run my games and why magic item shops would disrupt the flow of the world unless that was my intention.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Definitely haven't read the whole thread, but wanted to toss this out there:
I have an old TurboGrax 16 and a copy of Order of the Griffon. It's a D&D video game, using older rules (either 1E or 2E, I'm not sure).
It has magic shops.
Every single town has an armory containing (at the very least) some +1 weapons and armor and some potions. Some armories contain weapons up to +3 (surpassing the strongest monster-guarded loot) as well as magic rings, wands of fireball/lightning/cold, girdles of giant STR, and so forth.
Every single town has a spell shop where you can buy spells to teach to your mage or elf - the only other way to learn spells is from a found scroll, and there are spells which don't appear as scrolls and can ONLY be acquired by purchasing them at the magic shop.
You literally cannot make it through that game without spending loads of cash on magic items at the shops. There's certainly plenty of found loot as well, so they *could* have given you all the magic items in that way.
But they didn't.
And that's old-school D&D.
Just sayin'.
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Shallowsoul, your assertions about the "logical" consequences of the existence of "magic shops" is, imho, vastly exaggerated and relies on the most liberal possible assumption about magic items and how they are made, distributed and sold.
But if you are going to talk about "logic" and "impact to the world" then you are going to have to explain why your world has NO magic shops when all it takes to start making and selling magic items is a bit of minor education, some gold and a slightly above average intelligence.
If you are going to make some argument about verisimilitude, you're going to have to reconcile the existence of skills, abilities and a strong market demand with the total lack of that market. What, exactly, is stopping a talented blacksmith from becoming a master blacksmith and making magic weapons and armor and then selling them? You actually think it's more "believable" that people with the skills, abilities, resources and time to create magic items simply won't do it? It is precisely because I don't revolve the world around my player characters that magic shops exist. If I were to allow player characters to make magic items, but restrict that ability for every other person in the world, what possible reason could I provide for that other than "this world was made for you?"
The ability to make magic items and sell them does not mean the world would be flooded with magic items and the local middle school gangs would end up with +3 magical daggers. It costs a LOT to make magical items. That alone will keep the supply very low, even for "low end" magic items.
In a typical small town in my world there will likely be either a merchant or a local hedge witch or blacksmith or something like that who sells a few magic items. The local temple might sell potions of cure light wounds. But the average peasant would have to save up so much cash that they would only seek out magic items in the most dire need. They simply could not afford a +2 plow of planting.
But in my world there is a powerful merchant class and a professional class. Both of those classes are "wealthy" by any reasonable definition, meaning they have disposable income enough that they might buy magic items. They would be unlikely to buy high level magic items, but a +1 dagger for a particularly paranoid royal scribe would not be out of the question. And there are a few extremely wealthy merchants who can buy more expensive stuff.
But the higher you go, the smaller the market, until you get to only the highest ranks of royalty who can afford the really expensive stuff.
While I talk about the RAW which provides some level of rarity for items, I don't actually go by RAW in my magical shops. I go by "what makes sense." Usually it will be easier to find a longsword with any specific weapon enchantment than a scimitar. But if you really want that enchantment on a scimitar, you can probably have someone make it for you, if you have the gold and the time.
My campaign world does have a very specific special magic item merchant. You could consider that shop to be the Tiffany's of magic stuff. Most people don't even know it exists. It has an extremely discreet clientele. But if you have the gold and have the connections, that's where you find most of the really rare stuff. Why? Because that merchant has a magical means of distribution from a central secret well-protected location to several well-placed shops that can request just about anythign from the central location. It's a shop that has existed for uncounted generations. The shop is more or less controlled by the wizard's guild. Currently there are no player characters in my campaign who even guess that such a shop exists. They'll have to perform some rather amazing heroic deeds and amass considerably more wealth before they will be invited to shop there.
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I'm not interested in purchasing some so-called proof of how the game works Alzrius. And to suggest that a commercial product that you have to pay for somehow "proves" something about Pathfinder is sort of pointless since the vast majority of gamers aren't going to purchase it.
To be blunt, Trailblazer is a far better fix to 3.5 than Pathfinder is. If Paizo does decide to stick with d20 for it's second edition, they could do worse than having the same amount of copious copy-pasting from Trailblazer that they had from the SRD in the current edition.
Alzrius, I am not going to go out and buy something so that you can "prove" a point. You say it "proves" something. I suspect that it "proves" it only through making certain assumptions that I may or may not agree with.
If the proof is so obvious and simple, find me a link that doesn't make me open my wallet.
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I design my worlds to be consistent and "alive" per se. I don't run the "this is only supposed to happen to the players" or "only the players can take advantage of this".
If there are tons of magic item shops exist then a logical and realistic scenario is going to happen like I mentioned above. My worlds exist and continue to function outside the PC's, it's not the world revolving around the PCs.
That is how I run my games and why magic item shops would disrupt the flow of the world unless that was my intention.
If it were me, I would find it unbearably frustrating if as a "Dual Bladed sword specialist" I was unable to find or purchase enhanced versions of the weapon.
So, I would expect my GM to at least somewhat accomodate my chosen playing style.
You don't have to go the magic mart route, but players rightfully assume that they should have some sort of access to upgraded equipment that fits thier playing style. Anything else is the sign of a terribly vindictive GM.
The real issue is that some classes can run around naked with very little mechanical penalty -- an eidolon is partly balanced by *not having magic items* -- and some of them simply cannot. Take a summoner's magic items away, he'll shrug and his eidolon will continue ripping bad guys apart. Tell your level 10 fighter he can't have a magic weapon because you haven't invented a situation special enough to warrant it and you won't have a fighter in your game for very long.
I'm not interested in purchasing some so-called proof of how the game works Alzrius. And to suggest that a commercial product that you have to pay for somehow "proves" something about Pathfinder is sort of pointless since the vast majority of gamers aren't going to purchase it.To be blunt, Trailblazer is a far better fix to 3.5 than Pathfinder is. If Paizo does decide to stick with d20 for it's second edition, they could do worse than having the same amount of copious copy-pasting from Trailblazer that they had from the SRD in the current edition.
Hmmm... so I'm doing some googling of Trailblazer.
I am intrigued.
But what I see is a different system than Pathfinder. Perhaps Trailblazer really is a better game system than Pathfinder. But if so, it's different and doesn't really belong in a discussion of how magic shops in Pathfinder work.
Even if I were to agree that Trailblazer is better (and I readily concede that it might be, my problems with Pathfinder are public and legion) I still have the issue that my gaming group does not like change and it took me almost two years to finally convert them from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
Sigh...
I might buy it though. It looks intriguing.