I don't know about "Ill" Aligned characters, but how do you handle someone whos character constantly uses AoE spells/weapons and keeps hitting PC's with splash damage?
If it happens once its usually a, Oops moment. but when it happens multiple times every game session (And the person shows no remorse and sometimes happiness......)
Is my paladin allowed to use the "Cleave" feat and Oops them 2d6 + 12 pts of damage or something?
Or can I just rip up their character sheet for being a douche
You didn't read my post I see...also you failed your detect sarcasm roll
My question being, "How to handle someone who uses AoE splash weapons/attacks" (Alchemists) that constantly deal damage too the party
Isn't this partly PvP?
Well in my experience most DM's would be more than happy to let some gung ho fireball gone bad do their job for them lol. But even if you tell a player NOT to do something the could still do it in the rules, so in the event that you say "No don't drop that grenade next to the cleric because you want to hit that monster" And they do it anyway...
Do you just have to refuse to play with that person? I guess this is a touchy kind of subject
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To put this another way, the party would have failed the mission if I listened to the paladin. If the paladin could have, he would have tied me up/fought me for my attempts to save innocent lives, which would have led to the deaths of innocents.
If the paladin was prepared with manacles and gags and such, then sure whatever. He wasn't. He was prepared to cut them in two, but only if they were conscious. My witch wasn't even certain that throwing the sleeping pirates overboard (with 6 seconds left to sleep) would kill them, but it would remove them from the fight and make it much harder to alert the crew.
Seriously, if the Paladin in question had implemented his plan, I would seriously be considering that he should Fall, based on his actions (presuming he didn't get him and/or all of the party killed, along with the hostages).
Sure, he thought he was being zealous about good and evil, right and wrong. Turns out, it was a horribly stupid idea. Especially when he knew that any alerting of the enemy would result in hostage exectution. He may not have LIKED his allies' approach, but taking into account the danger to the innocent prisoners, the danger to the party as a whole, and the fact that he otherwise accepted the party's motivations and plan for aggression against the enemy, his proposed actions could have only helped Evil triumph.
That is Fall material, even if it came with the best intentions. Hubris is also a sin, that every self righteous Paladin should come face to face with... the refusal to look outside the narrow confines of how...
It's such a shame that some players choose to play their Paladin's alignment as Lawful Stupid instead of Lawful Good. The way I play my Paladin in PFS play is to have a personal honour code that only applies to the character himself hoping that by his example he will lead others to follow a better path.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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I have always, and still, believe that the practices of slavery and devil worship are inherently and majorly evil. For these reasons I have also always believed that the faction of Cheliax deserves an evil status; and that it therefore should be outlawed by Paizo as a player option. Hopefully, Paizo will do this in the future. Unfortunately, at present, Paizo has chosen not to do so; and I therefore have to endure the situation as it is. I cooperate with individual Chelaxian Pathfinders as long as they do not push their faction beliefs jerkishly towards my character. If they do, they may experience lack of healing or sub-optimal tactics as far as their character is concerned.
What constitutes "jerkishly" pushing a faction's goals on another character at the table? I hope that you inform players of this before you sit down so that they can find a table with someone who will actually, you know, play the game as a team.
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But AFAIK, the OP's case was a player who stated they were going around capturing NPCs to enslave.
'Because the NPCs deserve it' or acted hostiley to the PC in question isn't really a good enough reason to avoid Evilness IMHO, especially when the PC in question is knowingly seeking out these situations, and knows that their above average capabilities make such situations much less dangerous than for the average NPC, so the looting of slaves isn't much different than the looting of gold for them.
so what you are saying is a slaver is legal for seeking out people and enslaving them is evil, but the rest of the pathfinders whom seek them out and murder them to take all there stuff is ok.
oh but they did it in combat you say but they also did this knowing there above average abilities would lead to the murders of these people just wanted to add this to deceased's post above
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The citation was because the LG Andoran in would not let me take fallen enemy's as slaves even though we were in the land of the linorm kings were the Ulfen be leave that the loser should become a slave and i would not leave them to come back and try and kill us again later so i killed them.
Ulfen thralldom is another good example of non evil "slavery" there are rules for how they are to be treated, they are servants not property. Also it is a cultural honor thing for losing combatants, enemies beaten in battle, not children rounded up or born into it.
So what you're saying is that your discourse (which are obviously affected by the world around you), should be applied to PathfinderGood and Evil in Pathfinder are Cosmological facts, independent of what any one culture feels about a certain thing.
So discussion of what this or that historical culture felt about a certain thing, vs. modern day America, is irrelevant.
I think that active slaving is certainly an Evil act IN PATHFINDER, and active participation with that as well.
No, that's the exact opposite of what I'm saying.
I'm not making any recourse to real-world references here. Certainly I don't think in the real world the idea of 'Good and Evil being Cosmological facts' is really valid in the way it is in the Pathfinder/Golarion universe... Where Planes of existence are aligned to those ideals, magic can detect those alignments, and souls are sent around the universe and reincarnated based on those alignments. I am saying that based on how the Golarion universe works, those Cosmological facts of Good and Evil apply to everybody within it, even if every culture on Golarion were cannibalistic baby-eaters who all practiced slavery and that was considered 'righteous'.Ulzef was not actively seeking out these situations. It tends to be part of his Venture-Captain's (in the OP's case, Shiela Heidmarch's) orders.
When people debated the flat-out evil faction missions like Scarni's that had you go kill somebody just because they wanted to send a message, the PFS response was NOT 'you were told to do it by your VC, so it doesn't have Alignment implications'. The response was clarification that Evil acts indeed leads to Evil alignment, which can disqualify a character, and clarification of the Alignment infraction system for noting such acts which in totality can lead to Alignment shift.
Ulzef takes considerable pains to ensure that enemies are taken alive, to the point where the rogue/fighter/dualist has taken Improved Unarmed Strike, and dropping money on amulet of mighty fists etc...
Great, but if you are just saving their lives so you can enslave them, most GMs will not really count that as any less of an Evil act. (which you are allowed to do, and they don't disqualify your character based on just one act)
As mentioned, one Evil act doesn't necessarily shift your Alignment to Evil, and PFS includes many opportunities for Evil acts including faction missions... it one's character concept involves doing those Evil acts at every turn, then you will sooner or later become Evil. That isn't a conflict with the PFS rules, that they allow you the opportunity to commit Evil acts and disqualify your character (by doing act that many in-game cultures may not even disapprove of) just means you are being given the freedom to play your character, but that consequences for your actions still apply.Conjecture and opinion.
Really!? Wow.
Well, I can only suggest you forward what I wrote there to PFS management and ask them what exactly in it is not factually true for PFS, and what is merely opinion.[the PFS rules] allow you the opportunity to commit Evil acts and disqualify your character (by doing act that many in-game cultures may not even disapprove of)It turns out the "Many in-game cultures" you're referring to (Andoran and the River Kingdoms) is VASTLY outnumbered by those in-game cultures that permit it
Uh... reading fail.
I wasn't referring to Andoren or T.R.K.,, those countries DISAPPROVE of slavery.When I wrote 'doing acts [slavery] that many in-game culture MAY NOT EVEN DISAPPROVE OF',
I was exactly referring to the large list of countries you mention.
Again, the prevalence of these attitudes in the Golarion universe has NO bearing on Alignment issues.
Golarion is not really a 'Good' place all around, certainly not enough to be the dominant force is most areas.
There is no 'Guilty' here. PFS flat out gives Evil missions (whether from Cheliax, Scarni, or whoever). Doing Evil acts is not barred, it just has it's natural consequences (Cosmological Alignment change EVENTUALLY, besides in-game ones you mention that mostly aren't related to Alignment per-se). But doing enough of these acts to change your Alignment to Evil IS barred, or rather once you do that, your character is barred. But if you've balanced out the Evil acts with enough Good ones, you could very well never actually shift to Evil.
There's no source that says that casting Cloudkill in the centre of a crowded street is an evil act, or that channeling positive energy in an orphanage is not an evil act either.
This might be good to mention when you e-mail PFS management about my 'conjecture and opinion'.
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Quandary: What evil missions are you referring to? I don't believe I've ever been given a mission that I consider outrightly evil, nor have I seen one at any table I've GMmed? Feel free to spoiler specific examples from scenarios.
Quandary is wrong. Gms cannot ding a character as evil simply for doing a faction mission as it is laid out in the scenario. This was clarified and specified. It was specified that paladins are an exception to this rule.
I am sure someone can get a linky for you.
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I'll be honest, I'll laugh in the face of any GM that tries to write down that I've comitted an evil act for being a slaver. Unless its agaisnt the law of the area I am in, I take people who bare arms agaisnt me alive, shackle them, and send them on their way to join a chain gang etc.
Slavery isnt evil, nor is it agaisnt the laws of the land of Golarion, and to state that in itself the act of slavery is inherently evil. I'll balance that agaisnt out and out killing someone because they took up arms agaisnt me any day, and sleep well for it at night.
Now get off my lawn you dirty Andoran hippy before I feed you to my shadow.
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Quandary: What evil missions are you referring to? I don't believe I've ever been given a mission that I consider outrightly evil, nor have I seen one at any table I've GMmed? Feel free to spoiler specific examples from scenarios.
I'd say that one qualifies as evil by any standard. There's a reason the Sczarni are known as the mafia faction.
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I'll be honest, I'll laugh in the face of any GM that tries to write down that I've comitted an evil act for being a slaver. Unless its agaisnt the law of the area I am in, I take people who bare arms agaisnt me alive, shackle them, and send them on their way to join a chain gang etc.
Slavery isnt evil, nor is it agaisnt the laws of the land of Golarion, and to state that in itself the act of slavery is inherently evil. I'll balance that agaisnt out and out killing someone because they took up arms agaisnt me any day, and sleep well for it at night.
It depends on why they're taking up arms against you.
Try to see it from the NPC's perspective. How many times are you just kicking in the door as a heavily armed invader, sneaking in as a thief, just demanding the doohicky of the week, or (in season 2) representing yourself as a member of an organization that people have every reason to believe is evil?
You can't start a fight, say "ahah! they fought back! That means i can clap them in irons and sell them". That's textbook lawful evil.
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I'll be honest, I'll laugh in the face of any GM that tries to write down that I've comitted an evil act for being a slaver. Unless its agaisnt the law of the area I am in, I take people who bare arms agaisnt me alive, shackle them, and send them on their way to join a chain gang etc.
Slavery isnt evil, nor is it agaisnt the laws of the land of Golarion, and to state that in itself the act of slavery is inherently evil. I'll balance that agaisnt out and out killing someone because they took up arms agaisnt me any day, and sleep well for it at night.
It depends on why they're taking up arms against you.
Try to see it from the NPC's perspective. How many times are you just kicking in the door as a heavily armed invader, sneaking in as a thief, just demanding the doohicky of the week, or (in season 2) representing yourself as a member of an organization that people have every reason to believe is evil?
You can't start a fight, say "ahah! they fought back! That means i can clap them in irons and sell them". That's textbook lawful evil.
I often times kick no doors in, or assault stair cases much less anything else. In the day and age of might makes right, I'm often the victor, thus I am often right, and instead of killing people, I as was stated - send them off to be slaves.
It's not evil, nor is it diabolical. Its just the law of the lands. I don't go take missions in Andorean area's if I can avoid it, so basically slavery is a legal option that I can take in effectively 90% of the world.
The one thing however, is, as much as your slimy ill-disputed disreputable remarks are taken, being that you seem almost Andorean of nature. Know that I respect your right to your beliefs, and I would never leave you behind in a mission because you are my fellow brother in arms, a Pathfinder.
Now get off my lawn, you damned Andorean hippah before I feed you to my shadow.
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There's at least one Andoran assassination mission. Which is at least as bad.Quandary: What evil missions are you referring to? I don't believe I've ever been given a mission that I consider outrightly evil, nor have I seen one at any table I've GMmed? Feel free to spoiler specific examples from scenarios.** spoiler omitted **
I'd say that one qualifies as evil by any standard. There's a reason the Sczarni are known as the mafia faction.
I can think of two Andoran missions off the top of my head that want you to kill someone. But in both cases, it's a very clearly evil BBEG that you're being ordered to kill, just to make sure you don't take him prisoner in the end.
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In the day and age of might makes right, I'm often the victor, thus I am often right, and instead of killing people, I as was stated - send them off to be slaves.
That's kind of the definition of evil: you can profit from the misery and suffering of innocent people less powerful than you, so you do.
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I feel the need to point out that the "innocent" adverb was added by you BNW.
Yes, several posts ago. I'm sure there are people who deserve to be clapped in chains and shipped off to the slave pits, and PC's can give them that deserved fate without alignment slippage.
But the qualification for that is not merely "i was busy pathfindering and these people tried to stop me". By the nature of the game PCs are often the aggressors breaking into areas that other beings have a right to defend against intruders.
I think the two choices he is picking between are:
A) Kill them in cold blood.
B) Send them to be slaves.
Dumb and dumber. Dumb isn't smart.
Evil and eviler. Evil isn't not evil.
Which it would be to an Andoran PC!
You know there are two good factions now... (at least for the moment...)
"Give me Liberty or Give me Death! Andoran forever!" - some Eagle Knight wasn't it?
Quandary: What evil missions are you referring to? I don't believe I've ever been given a mission that I consider outrightly evil, nor have I seen one at any table I've GMmed? Feel free to spoiler specific examples from scenarios.** spoiler omitted **
I'd say that one qualifies as evil by any standard. There's a reason the Sczarni are known as the mafia faction.
-j
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If you don't want an evil label you don't put in an objective force of good into the mechanics and the system.Here in lies the problem. I think an objective force of good is a phenomenological construct (a bit ironic) that breaks down under close scrutiny.Perhaps you shouldn't play D&D/Pathfinder then?
Good and Evil in Pathfinder are Cosmological facts, independent of what any one culture feels about a certain thing.
So discussion of what this or that historical culture felt about a certain thing, vs. modern day America, is irrelevant.I think that active slaving is certainly an Evil act IN PATHFINDER, and active participation with that as well.
I suppose that if there is 'legal penalties' for certain crimes, or prisoners of war, that allow for limited slavery, those may not be evil in themselves.
But AFAIK, the OP's case was a player who stated they were going around capturing NPCs to enslave.
'Because the NPCs deserve it' or acted hostiley to the PC in question isn't really a good enough reason to avoid Evilness IMHO, especially when the PC in question is knowingly seeking out these situations, and knows that their above average capabilities make such situations much less dangerous than for the average NPC, so the looting of slaves isn't much different than the looting of gold for them.As mentioned, one Evil act doesn't necessarily shift your Alignment to Evil, and PFS includes many opportunities for Evil acts including faction missions... it one's character concept involves doing those Evil acts at every turn, then you will sooner or later become Evil. That isn't a conflict with the PFS rules, that they allow you the opportunity to commit Evil acts and disqualify your character (by doing act that many in-game cultures may not even disapprove of) just means you are being given the freedom to play your character, but that consequences for your actions still apply.
Is there any source for the idea that slavery (of the capturing, not...
So if a game that I get many hours of enjoyment out of has a rule built on a paradox that normally doesn't really affect anything outside of when the occasional individual wants to make a big deal about it or people wish to discuss its implications as a thought exercise, then I have two options?
1. Don't play the game
2. Accept your modern cultural and/or religious definitions of evil as objectively correct
Changing norms over time and location prove as a foundation to extrapolate the idea that no matter what any of us might think about good and evil or how certain we are, it is completely subjective. We are a very young and very arrogant race. I am not really trying to argue that the situation of enslaving people for the hell of it is not what we would call evil, but I am arguing that the lens I use to make that determination is subjective as well. What gives me the right to draw the line that I claim immutable? Did we reach the pinnacle of our understanding of good and evil just in my life time and location?
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actually, I have not considered Andorans the "good" faction ever. The Silvers get that from me. They strive to be the "Good" faction, and so far seem to be doing a fine job of it.
BUT, I don't equate Liberty (or Freedom even) with Good... Chaotic yes... good? not on that axis.
something can be free & evil, or good & restricted.
but most of what you say is very valid. and Sin just seems to be trying to provoke people.
Nosig, I'm not attempting to provoke people into anything other than discussion. I'm not attempting to make troll or flame bait. I merely wish to have discourse on view points, as long as they remain healthy topic's.
To me, slavery is preferable to death, as a chance of escape exists, and to me it's existentialism on being alive, and having a chance to do something different tomorrow etc. That's why I push for slavery. Death has a finality to it, a certain game over appeal, and most would rather go into chains, for a chance at freedom later then trying to escape death itself.
One of the subjects brought up, is how the Pathfinders are essentially the bad guys for a majority of the time, due to robbing etc. I don't believe that is the case 100% of the time. We're not heroes sure, but we're not the bloody villians either.
I'd counter your arguement for the innocents with this. For the last past twelve or so adventures I have been in, I have been fighting the Aspis consortium, and their affiliates - they good sir, are not good people, or innocent. They deserve my chains, and perhaps death, but again - death is final, unforgiving and cold. I am merciful, and offer albeit a twisted sort of redemption it is still a redemption.
Call it evil, or good, I don't really care.
Good day, and blah blah blah off my damned lawn you dirty Andorean hippah. ( See that's funny to me, but it may get someone a bit twisted up! )