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History is also useful in a dungeon in such ways too, what culture set up their traps like that and what type of traps did they prefer? Are they likely to have guardian type x or guardian type y (with very different limitations and vulnerabilities)? These are things that you could easily not know before you find the clues in the dungeon/ruins/whatever.
I hear you. Right now I am running a Shattered Star campaign, and there are plenty of opportunities for my group to make Knowledge History rolls with all of the ancient ruins they are going into. It does adds some flavor to the game. Plus they are extra bonuses built in when they recognize certain historical artifacts and turn them into the Pathfinder Society.
That said, if there was no one in the group with that skill trained in the group it wouldn't be a problem. They may not recognize which Runelord is which on statures and murals and miss out on Sidhedron backstory, but they would still be able to complete the adventure.
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A lot of skill uses will depend on how much your GM implements them into the game. Also, how strictly they run module rules. I remember the first time I played in a PFS game, I was trying to become friends with some of the npcs that were shipwrecked with us. I talked with them, invited them to explore, gave them supplies, asked about their worries, but nothing I did made any difference. Then one of the other players just said, i want to befriend so and so, my diplomacy roll is 18. GM said, okay, he's friendly to you now.
The GM explained that no matter how well you explain or plan something, it means nothing without the roll, because then naturally charismatic or smart people could just avoid putting any points into social skills and still do those roles.
IN any event, based on the games I've been involved in, my skill list would look something like;
5 - Acrobatics
5 - Knowledge (Local)
5 - Perception
4 - Diplomacy
4 - Disable Device
4 - Linguistics
4 - Spellcraft
4 - Survival
4 - Stealth
3 - Bluff
3 - Knowledge (Arcana)
3 - Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
3 - Knowledge (History)
3 - Knowledge (Nature)
3 - Knowledge (Planes)
3 - Knowledge (Religion)
3 - Sense Motive
3 - Swim
2 - Climb
2 - Escape Artist
2 - Fly
2 - Handle Animal
2 - Heal
2 - Intimidate
2 - Use Magic Device
1 - Appraise
1 - Craft
1 - Disguise
1 - Knowledge (Engineering)
1 - Knowledge (Geography)
1 - Knowledge (Nobility)
1 - Perform
1 - Profession
1 - Ride
1 - Sleight of Hand
Actually I *do* have a problem playing down my intelligence. I'm no rocket scientist, but when the fight breaks out, my brain goes into 'tactical mode' when I'm analyzing the map for advantages/spell effects subconsciously pulling up the bestiaries in the brain etc.* As a result I try to a) avoid the big dumb fighter type characters and b) hang back if I'm playing a scenario/module I've GMed/read.
I have the same issue, but I see it a little differently...
While that Fighter may have a 7 Int, that doesn't mean he doesn't know how to make good use of tactics on the battlefield. That's what he's trained to do, after all. He won't be as good at it as a Fighter with 13 Int, but he's not going to be bad at it by any means.
Plus, chances are you have someone in the party with a high Int that *should* be rather tactically minded, and their player is not necessarily so. In that case, I think it's totally fair to offer friendly suggestions (out of character) for that player to consider. No matter how smart a given player is, they're not as smart as the 30 Int Wizard they might be playing. The table as a whole, though, should probably be able to get reasonably close.
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You know, I was thinking about this for a while, and I realized that there IS a practical use for Appraise: Wizards who make clever use of Shrink Item.
I mean think about it:
How many times have you been in a dungeon and come up to some giant statue made of gold or diamonds or whatever, and you're like "Man, how much is that worth?" and your GM goes "It's clearly too big and too heavy for you to carry" at which point you get out your scroll of Shrink Item, turn it into a clothlike version of itself 1/16th it's size and fold it up and put it into your backpack.
Then you ask your GM: "Appraise?"
History is also useful in a dungeon in such ways too, what culture set up their traps like that and what type of traps did they prefer? Are they likely to have guardian type x or guardian type y (with very different limitations and vulnerabilities)? These are things that you could easily not know before you find the clues in the dungeon/ruins/whatever.
Humanoid cultures like that are Knowledge (Local).
I know more than a few players that would absolutely love your stated position.
Their characters would also never have higher than a 7 charisma with zero points invested in social skills. Why should they when all it takes to succeed is good real like social skills and a little roleplay.
This is not speculation. This describes compaigns I've been involved in. One of two socially dominate players (using characters with negligable social skills) taking control of all social situations while the rest of the table is marginalized.
That's not really my position at all--some social skill rolls are important. But many are just lazy "I don't feel like talking" rolls or GMs refusing to allow actually good points to sway people.
As for your problem, I don't know, stop using point buy, I guess? I generally give some arrays instead.
Appraise is the most useless. Ride is junk unless you're specifically mounted. The knowledges that aren't used to identify monsters and aren't History are also pretty lousy.arcana mosterlore, magic = useful
Yes, I said specifically that knowledges used to identify monsters were useful.
nature = is it going to storm tomorrow? i am hungry where game trails?
Both of those things are Survival checks. That said, Nature is still useful because it identifies monsters.
geography = I'm thristy were is water likely to be?
That is also Survival, or at the very least Knowledge: Nature.
religion = what is the dogma of a cleric of Asmodues?
Again, Religion identifies monsters, so it is one of the useful ones.
Engineering = where is the likely location of the weak point in the evil fortress
Please, tell me what this actually does.
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You know, I was thinking about this for a while, and I realized that there IS a practical use for Appraise: Wizards who make clever use of Shrink Item.
I mean think about it:
How many times have you been in a dungeon and come up to some giant statue made of gold or diamonds or whatever, and you're like "Man, how much is that worth?" and your GM goes "It's clearly too big and too heavy for you to carry" at which point you get out your scroll of Shrink Item, turn it into a clothlike version of itself 1/16th it's size and fold it up and put it into your backpack.
Then you ask your GM: "Appraise?"
That doesn't happen to me. The issue isn't the Appraise skill though, it's motivation. I never have characters motivated by money, and when DMing insist on the same. If characters get too mercenary, they become incredibly risk averse and avoid plot hooks.
If my character is going into the dungeon, it's usually to stop a villain. Picking up something valuable is just a bonus :)
There's nothing invalid about being a character driven by personal gain. Newsflash: Being a wizard is ****ing expensive! All those ingredients and scrolls and materials...those cost money! And if people are just going to leave giant, solid gold statues lying around...
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Engineering = where is the likely location of the weak point in the evil fortressPlease, tell me what this actually does.
The only time I've seen knowledge engineering used was:
Once when we had to cross a rope bridge, a knowledge engineering check told us that it wouldn't actually hold us and would break if we tried to cross it
And once a knowledge engineering check was needed to construct a wall around a town that was expecting to be sieged by an army.
except for those two times, I've never seen it used.
Engineering = where is the likely location of the weak point in the evil fortressPlease, tell me what this actually does.The only time I've seen knowledge engineering used was:
Once when we had to cross a rope bridge, a knowledge engineering check told us that it wouldn't actually hold us and would break if we tried to cross it
And once a knowledge engineering check was needed to construct a wall around a town that was expecting to be sieged by an army.
except for those two times, I've never seen it used.
Knowledge engineering is used for a lot of rules related to siege engines in Ultimate Combat.
I've had players use it a lot to determine where weak points were in a building or other structure, as well as to design strongholds and similar things. Also to analyze where something might be in a building (for example, "If I built this castle, where would I put the dungeon?").
There's a module, City of Golden Death, where it comes quite in handy, but I don't want to spoil how.
I've had players use it a lot to determine where weak points were in a building or other structure, as well as to design strongholds and similar things. Also to analyze where something might be in a building (for example, "If I built this castle, where would I put the dungeon?").
Can you tell me what finding the "weak point" in a building actually does?
Also, I consider it to have a “weak game mechanic” because so often it is ignored. I’ve been running and playing a couple of APs lately, and they don’t list “language(s) spoken” for any of the NPCs or enemies, not even the ones with INT 12 or higher, or with significant racial/regional heritage. The same tends to be true in most home-brew games as well, everyone speaks enough common for the game to progress unhindered, with an occasional exception for flavor.In Paizo APs? Pretty much every NPC in a Paizo AP I've seen has a reasonable amount of languages for their stats. It's just below skills.
You prompted me to look again, and you’re right, most (but not all) of the NPCs with full stat blocks give languages. Of course, [i]every single one of them[/] speaks common, with the exception of some monsters who attack on sight.
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There's nothing invalid about being a character driven by personal gain.Seen it too many times. You get characters setting up pie shops if it goes too far.
Newsflash: Being a wizard is ****ing expensive! All those ingredients and scrolls and materials...those cost money! And if people are just going to leave giant, solid gold statues lying around...Being a fighter is even more expensive (more gear-dependent). Also, gold statues are heavy. It's easy to see a party getting wiped out, trying to drag a heavy gold statue through a forest. (How did the statue get there? Who puts one in a dungeon?) Even the named spell has limits.
It'd be smarter to chop off some manageable chunks. At least until you get Teleport.
There's more profit to be had in delving dungeons. And besides, at the end of the day, it's still a game. Running a pie shop...not a game. All my wizard wants is to make as much coin as possible on the side.
And have you read Shrink Item? As a scroll, it affects an object up to 10cu feet in size (which is pretty freaking big) and reduces it to 1/16 of it's size and 1/4000 of it's mass, while at the same time turning it into clothlike object to fold it up.
Handle Animal and Ride.
First, half the people I play with ignore it, and assume they have complete and total control over the animal.
Second, the set DC's means that people just pump skill ranks into it until there is a 0% miss chance, then stop rolling anything anyway.
Third, on the rare occasion that the DM calls for such a roll, it always comes with a load of whiney, annoying, frustrating exasperation from the player. And heaven help the DM if the player misses...
Find a GM that isn't looking for excuses to kill you.One does not have to be highly competent to command vast legions of troops. You might take a look at some of the Roman Emperors.
What are you going to do when hundreds of archers start shooting at you? Or a dozen mages all cast Magic Missile at you?
If the players in their roleplaying do things to get a local lord upset at them, the GM is not out looking for excuses to kill you. He's roleplaying the results of your actions.
One does not have to be highly competent to command vast legions of troops. You might take a look at some of the Roman Emperors.
What are you going to do when hundreds of archers start shooting at you? Or a dozen mages all cast Magic Missile at you?
I think you do need that competence. Did those incompetent emperors actually command? They had guys to do that for them.
And when they didn't, they'd quickly fall into disaster. Crassus, while a consul and not a general, led his troops into victory against Spartacus. (While Spartacus wasn't the easiest guy to beat, most of his troops were untrained slaves, with only a few gladiators, and Crassus was fighting in his home territory. Crassus was also really skilled at logistics, while Spartacus had to steal food.) Crassus lost big time against the Parthians.
Direct military command, no. But they don't have to be a direct military commander to order the deaths of people that displease them. Look at Nero, he had quite a few people executed, and had his armies win military victories. All that is needed is the loyalty of the people that are being ordered to do commit the executions.
I've had players use it a lot to determine where weak points were in a building or other structure, as well as to design strongholds and similar things. Also to analyze where something might be in a building (for example, "If I built this castle, where would I put the dungeon?").Can you tell me what finding the "weak point" in a building actually does?
Although it's for an earlier edition, Roy Greenhilt demonstrates one example most effectively. (I hope Roy would be happy to know Knowledge (engineering) is a fighter class skill in Pathfinder.)
For a less dramatic example, let's say I'm running a game where someone wants to collapse a bridge before the enemies could follow. Just using the breaking an object rules in the game, it may take them too long to bypass the bridge's effective hardness/take down the hit points to do so. But I might ask them to roll Knowledge (engineering) to find which key strut to strike to make it collapse more easily. If they succeed, then I would let them basically ignore the appropriate strut's hardness (or gain a bonus to damage) so they have a better chance of collapsing the bridge before their pursuers arrive--their knowledge of engineering allows them to use physics to overcome something's durability.
I don't expect everyone to play like I do, but such scenarios arise often enough in the groups I play in that it has come in handy for us. And that's all I can desire out of a skill (or any ability/rule/feature), really, to come in handy for the games I play in.
For a less dramatic example, let's say I'm running a game where someone wants to collapse a bridge before the enemies could follow. Just using the breaking an object rules in the game, it may take them too long to bypass the bridge's effective hardness/take down the hit points to do so. But I might ask them to roll Knowledge (engineering) to find which key strut to strike to make it collapse more easily. If they succeed, then I would let them basically ignore the appropriate strut's hardness (or gain a bonus to damage) so they have a better chance of collapsing the bridge before their pursuers arrive--their knowledge of engineering allows them to use physics to overcome something's durability.
I have no objection to what you did in your game. But I do want to point out that your answer was essentially, "I houserule some stuff to make this worthless skill do something."
Although it's for an earlier edition, Roy Greenhilt demonstrates one example most effectively. (I hope Roy would be happy to know Knowledge (engineering) is a fighter class skill in Pathfinder.)I've had players use it a lot to determine where weak points were in a building or other structure, as well as to design strongholds and similar things. Also to analyze where something might be in a building (for example, "If I built this castle, where would I put the dungeon?").Can you tell me what finding the "weak point" in a building actually does?
I long ago played a character whose background included being the son of a famous architect (think Frank Lloyd Wright). This was before the skill system so it was role playing, but I'd have done it with skills if they existed. I made sure the GM knew that the character had grown up working in his dad's architecture firm and had abandoned architecture to become an adventurer after his dad had pressured him too much into becoming a partner in the architecture firm. Besides architecture he had learned engineering, math, geology (rocks mostly) and construction techniques.
The GM was an excellent GM and allowed me to work that background into the game in several ways, including being able to recognize types of rocks used in building castles or dungeons, calculating interior spaces (useful in locating secret rooms) and eventually allowing us to worm our way into an evil king's castle as a consultant on some repairs the king needed done.
I've done similar things with skills in 3.5 and PF. It's all about working with the GM to come up with interesting story lines that make plausible sense.
Another quick example, my druid is a master bow and arrow craftsman. When we were asked to investigate an assassination, she was able to identify the maker of the arrow used in the assassination and trace it back to the person the arrows were sold to, which provided the initial lead to solving the crime and bringing the assassin to justice.
It's all about the story really.
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There's more profit to be had in delving dungeons. And besides, at the end of the day, it's still a game. Running a pie shop...not a game. All my wizard wants is to make as much coin as possible on the side.There's also less risk in running a pie shop.
And yes, it's a player problem, not a game problem, but to avoid that player problem, I tell my PCs they can't be too "mercenary".
Eh, I view that as unnecessarily taking away player agency. What's it to you if I want to charge the king to go rescue his daughter? It's my skin on the line, and I don't have any code that compels me to do it.
One does not become Champion of the Crown or High Mage or even Master Assassin by being only modestly competent.
Kings can generally command the loyalty of highly competent individuals.
Kings, maybe, but why is your low level party even in the same room as the king to begin with?
I've seen the "16th level noble" too, but a 16th level aristocrat comes out to still being an 8th level PC class. It's only very rarely in my experience that you find nobles with high levels of PC classes or that have big numbers of high level PC class followers (maybe an 8-10th level Assassin, Mage, or Fighter for his Assassin/High Mage/Royal Guard Captain positions).
For a less dramatic example, let's say I'm running a game where someone wants to collapse a bridge before the enemies could follow. Just using the breaking an object rules in the game, it may take them too long to bypass the bridge's effective hardness/take down the hit points to do so. But I might ask them to roll Knowledge (engineering) to find which key strut to strike to make it collapse more easily. If they succeed, then I would let them basically ignore the appropriate strut's hardness (or gain a bonus to damage) so they have a better chance of collapsing the bridge before their pursuers arrive--their knowledge of engineering allows them to use physics to overcome something's durability.I have no objection to what you did in your game. But I do want to point out that your answer was essentially, "I houserule some stuff to make this worthless skill do something."
That might be true, if from a rather sadly limited point of view, if that was the only example I provided of what the Knowledge (engineering) skill does. I provided others which included printed game mechanics.
Given, however, that you like to pick fights and take a nasty tone with people just for committing the crime of playing the game differently than you or enjoying different aspects of the game than you, I am not going to repeat what I said, nor engage with you any further.
Engineering = where is the likely location of the weak point in the evil fortressPlease, tell me what this actually does.The only time I've seen knowledge engineering used was:
Once when we had to cross a rope bridge, a knowledge engineering check told us that it wouldn't actually hold us and would break if we tried to cross it
And once a knowledge engineering check was needed to construct a wall around a town that was expecting to be sieged by an army.
except for those two times, I've never seen it used.
Knowledge engineering is used for a lot of rules related to siege engines in Ultimate Combat.
I've had players use it a lot to determine where weak points were in a building or other structure, as well as to design strongholds and similar things. Also to analyze where something might be in a building (for example, "If I built this castle, where would I put the dungeon?").
There's a module, City of Golden Death, where it comes quite in handy, but I don't want to spoil how.
Also, don't forget, AM BARBARIAN has a masters in engineering.
I've had players use it a lot to determine where weak points were in a building or other structure, as well as to design strongholds and similar things. Also to analyze where something might be in a building (for example, "If I built this castle, where would I put the dungeon?").Can you tell me what finding the "weak point" in a building actually does?
Lets you know where to plant the demo charges.
Perhaps more likely in PF where to sunder the wall, or blast with spells or so on.
I have no objection to what you did in your game. But I do want to point out that your answer was essentially, "I houserule some stuff to make this worthless skill do something."That might be true, if from a rather sadly limited point of view, if that was the only example I provided of what the Knowledge (engineering) skill does. I provided others which included printed game mechanics.
Given, however, that you like to pick fights and take a nasty tone with people just for committing the crime of playing the game differently than you or enjoying different aspects of the game than you, I am not going to repeat what I said, nor engage with you any further.
...I wasn't nasty. Now I'm confused. I said specifically I don't have a problem with what you did--in fact, I'd probably do the same thing. It's a cool idea.
But it being a good idea doesn't make it part of the rules.
I guess I was asking a rhetorical question to prove my point: what does "finding a structure's weakness" do in game? Your answer was correct for your game, but it's not the rules answer. The rules answer is "undefined" which is as good as saying "nothing."
It's totally GM fiat what the skill actually does, so it fits pretty well at the bottom of the skill rankings since by default it doesn't do anything (well, except I guess the siege rules, if you use those).
Personally, I'd rather the knowledges just not exist--if, like one of the posters above, you say you grew up the son of an architect, I'd rather you just know that stuff without wasting ranks or making rolls, etc.
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I think it should probably fall somewhere in the middle. If you wanted to just walk up to someone and try to be friendly with them and make a straight roll go for it. However if you put all that work into it, I would still make you roll, depending on what you were trying to do, but I would take all that into consideration. Even in a lot of written adventures they have things that if you do them, it automatically makes someone friendly towards you. If someone is complaining they are hungry and you feed them, then you should expect a bonus or a much easier DC for befriending them certainly. So at the end of all you did, the GM in my opinion should have told you to make a Diplomacy check, but compensated.A lot of skill uses will depend on how much your GM implements them into the game. Also, how strictly they run module rules. I remember the first time I played in a PFS game, I was trying to become friends with some of the npcs that were shipwrecked with us. I talked with them, invited them to explore, gave them supplies, asked about their worries, but nothing I did made any difference. Then one of the other players just said, i want to befriend so and so, my diplomacy roll is 18. GM said, okay, he's friendly to you now.
The GM explained that no matter how well you explain or plan something, it means nothing without the roll, because then naturally charismatic or smart people could just avoid putting any points into social skills and still do those roles.
I agree, this is where you should get a circumstance bonus on your Diplomacy check. It's this nice little thing in the rules that accounts for how a player executes his actions - the circumstances that make it more likely for him to succeed. Like actually saying friendly things to people you are trying to befriend, or giving them supplies.
A charismatic character with a decent roll can probably make friends just by walking up to someone and starting a vaguely-defined conversation, and it's possible for all your well-meaning attempts at making friends to backfire if you come off as insulting or as a creepy stalker, but offering someone material help (supplies) should improve your chances. And if you're talking to people over several days you're allowed several Diplomacy checks.
Beside, the gold statue just happened to be lyiong there...
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The other low rated skills are just plain bad. Having profession soldier on your character sheet makes you worse at roleplaying a soldier not better because you took that point out of a skill that actually does something like ride or handle animal or perception or intimidate or any skill that might actually come up and have mechanical significance that a soldier should have. Even knowledge (nobility) from identifying heraldry is more useful and it is, itself, at the bottom of the useless knowledge totem pole.
The utility of skills like craft and profession and any skill not directly used often in adventuring depends on the campaign. Profession (sailor) and Profession (cook) come up a lot in Skull and Shackles. The campaign is designed to incorporate them.
Were I running the Roman Legions campaign I've toyed with, Profession (soldier) would be quite important, as would Knowledge (Engineering). I'd be using Profession (Soldier) to see how well the PCs might be doing at keeping the soldiers equipped and supplied, how quickly and securely they set up the legion's camps, how well they navigate the military protocols when dealing with officers and political appointees, how well they manage to maneuver the cohorts on the battlefield, and probably several other things I can't think of off the top of my head.
The important thing to keep in mind is that the profession skills are omnibus skills used to manage a bunch of routine sorts of things done within a specific profession. If there's no better fitting specific skill, profession is a good default fallback. But if a specific profession isn't featured in the campaign or the DM isn't willing to enable it's usefulness, it's not very useful.
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I'm amazed more people don't have 'Bluff' ranked higher. Remember: Anything NPCs can do, PCs can do better. It's probably not the best skill for your lawful good Paladin, but a chaotic neutral Rogue can become quite rich without picking a single lock with the the appropriate bluffs. I've accomplished more and had more fun with the bluff skill than any other skill in the game. And considering the absurdly low DC to make somebody believe an 'impossible' lie, you can make out like a bandit.
But the absolute lowest ranking for me is Knowledge: Nobility. I cannot remember the last time in a game I was asked for a K(Nobility) roll, and even so, it seems like Local or History would cover it just fine.
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Bluff can be awesome if you push it. My bard managed to convince a shopkeeper that he was living in an illusion. And to convince the party alchemist that he revealed his greatest secret while drunk the night before. And to tell a lie so awesome that it not only brought down a powerful criminal boss we were unable to defeat through conventional means, but it attracted the attention of a divine force that granted the bard a sliver of godhood.
Knowledge skills are campaign-based, so it,s up to the DM to use them accordingly.
Appraise is for me the lowest-ranked skill on the basis that I've never used it at all in a proper manner or had it come up logically in game. I've used it to haggle down shopkeepers and stall the game, but that's about it.
My current GM keeps a list of knowledges known by each player on his PC, and he tailors his adventures to suit that, so he's done really well.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Bluff can be awesome if you push it. My bard managed to convince a shopkeeper that he was living in an illusion. And to convince the party alchemist that he revealed his greatest secret while drunk the night before. And to tell a lie so awesome that it not only brought down a powerful criminal boss we were unable to defeat through conventional means, but it attracted the attention of a divine force that granted the bard a sliver of godhood.
I joked about making a PFS bard with maxed out bluff and get glibness.
"I tell them to surrender. They're figments conjured by me, and if they don't surrender, I'll stop concentrating on their existence." (possible +43 bluff at 4th level, easily, with the spell)
Interestingly, none of this makes you better at being a soldier. It would help for being a quartermaster or a commander.
The utility of skills like craft and profession and any skill not directly used often in adventuring depends on the campaign. Profession (sailor) and Profession (cook) come up a lot in Skull and Shackles. The campaign is designed to incorporate them.Were I running the Roman Legions campaign I've toyed with, Profession (soldier) would be quite important, as would Knowledge (Engineering). I'd be using Profession (Soldier) to see how well the PCs might be doing at keeping the soldiers equipped and supplied, how quickly and securely they set up the legion's camps, how well they navigate the military protocols when dealing with officers and political appointees, how well they manage to maneuver the cohorts on the battlefield, and probably several other things I can't think of off the top of my head.
The important thing to keep in mind is that the profession skills are omnibus skills used to manage a bunch of routine sorts of things done within a specific profession. If there's no better fitting specific skill, profession is a good default fallback. But if a specific profession isn't featured in the campaign or the DM isn't willing to enable it's usefulness, it's not very useful.
Note that quartermasters and commanders are generally professional soldiers and that it's reasonable to believe that their proficiency with managing the duties of soldiering would get better with experience - like using and investing in the profession (soldier) skill.
But those duties apply to far more than just commanders. They run right down through leaders of much smaller cohorts. The skill would help make the difference between basic grunt/conscript/greenhorn and the real pros, the lifers who are actually moving up ranks.
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Interestingly, none of this makes you better at being a soldier. It would help for being a quartermaster or a commander.
The utility of skills like craft and profession and any skill not directly used often in adventuring depends on the campaign. Profession (sailor) and Profession (cook) come up a lot in Skull and Shackles. The campaign is designed to incorporate them.Were I running the Roman Legions campaign I've toyed with, Profession (soldier) would be quite important, as would Knowledge (Engineering). I'd be using Profession (Soldier) to see how well the PCs might be doing at keeping the soldiers equipped and supplied, how quickly and securely they set up the legion's camps, how well they navigate the military protocols when dealing with officers and political appointees, how well they manage to maneuver the cohorts on the battlefield, and probably several other things I can't think of off the top of my head.
The important thing to keep in mind is that the profession skills are omnibus skills used to manage a bunch of routine sorts of things done within a specific profession. If there's no better fitting specific skill, profession is a good default fallback. But if a specific profession isn't featured in the campaign or the DM isn't willing to enable it's usefulness, it's not very useful.
Note that quartermasters and commanders are generally professional soldiers and that it's reasonable to believe that their proficiency with managing the duties of soldiering would get better with experience - like using and investing in the profession (soldier) skill.
But those duties apply to far more than just commanders. They run right down through leaders of much smaller cohorts. The skill would help make the difference between basic grunt/conscript/greenhorn and the real pros, the lifers who are actually moving up ranks.
As a former soldier myself, I've always been a bit annoyed that the Fighter class, and Profession(Soldier) don't give any benefits having to do with campaigning: camping, overland travel, effective guard duty, maintaining gear, provisioning, etc. I know most of that stuff is hand-waved to keep the game from bogging down, but a mechanic or two would be nice.
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Bluff can be awesome if you push it. My bard managed to convince a shopkeeper that he was living in an illusion. And to convince the party alchemist that he revealed his greatest secret while drunk the night before. And to tell a lie so awesome that it not only brought down a powerful criminal boss we were unable to defeat through conventional means, but it attracted the attention of a divine force that granted the bard a sliver of godhood.I joked about making a PFS bard with maxed out bluff and get glibness.
"I tell them to surrender. They're figments conjured by me, and if they don't surrender, I'll stop concentrating on their existence." (possible +43 bluff at 4th level, easily, with the spell)
I like it so much I quoted it so I can favorite it again.
@blueluck got to agree.
As a former soldier myself, I've always been a bit annoyed that the Fighter class, and Profession(Soldier) don't give any benefits having to do with campaigning: camping, overland travel, effective guard duty, maintaining gear, provisioning, etc. I know most of that stuff is hand-waved to keep the game from bogging down, but a mechanic or two would be nice.
That's why I started this topic. Professions are useless because they don't use a ton of uses. Same goes with Craft, which doesn't allow a craftman to add non-magical enhancements/modifications to items.
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As a former soldier myself, I've always been a bit annoyed that the Fighter class, and Profession(Soldier) don't give any benefits having to do with campaigning: camping, overland travel, effective guard duty, maintaining gear, provisioning, etc. I know most of that stuff is hand-waved to keep the game from bogging down, but a mechanic or two would be nice.That's why I started this topic. Professions are useless because they don't use a ton of uses. Same goes with Craft, which doesn't allow a craftman to add non-magical enhancements/modifications to items.
I would again suggest as a solution that we remove profession, craft, and appraise and replace them with 'trade(whatever)' that covers all situations involving that specific trade. Need to know who made those swords? Roll Trade(blacksmith) (or the correct knowledge if you have it).
Personally I've never been adverse to the idea that multiple skills can all handle the same situation. I've never understood when someone says, "I don't care how relevant your (insert skill here) is to the situation I told you to roll (other skill)."
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My group already plays that way, though the more relevant the skill the better your chance of success. Magic plant used as a spell component? You can use either Knowledge (Nature) or Knowledge (Arcana). Information about a famous centuries-old artisan? Knowledge (History) is best, but you could also use the relevant Craft skill to see if you remember the guy who invented such-and-such a technique that is still used today.