Let's take a look at Spell Components: Do you enforce "all" of them?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Jacob Saltband wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
They make plenty of sense from a game design perspective.

Oh yeah it really makes sense for a pouch costing you 5gp can contain an almost infinite number of rare and exotic noncostly materials that would be extremely hard to find depending on your campaign and your world.

Oh yeah, makes perfect sense.

Your reading WHY to much into the spell component pouch. The pouch only has components for the spells the wizards knows. The pouch is just a storage place for the components the wizard places into it. Look at it like a backpack.

And as you learn more spells, it has more stuff in it. It's not like a backpack since you don't have to specify what you put in it. It does help to think of the wizard continually adding stuff to it as he goes along.

It's more like Batman's utility belt. It doesn't have everything he could, it just has the things he actually needs at the time. An occasional comment of "I knew that bit of fetchling skin would come in handy some day" also helps.


shallowsoul wrote:
I would actually prefer a list of exotic components and their prices. Going out on quests to find those exotic components are quests all in themselves. You could go on a quest for a merchant who needs some of those exotic components who will in turn give you the components you need and you can sell them to him/her.

You have such list in Spells & Magic book, from the Player's Option in AD&D 2e. It list every single spell component, including arabic gum, eyelashes, twigs, sponges, garlic, ape hair, chicken feather, will o wisp essence, bassilisk eyelash, and umber hulk claws.

The cost vary from 1cp for a pinch of butter, to 150gp for Umber hulk claws.
The Dragon Scale cost is 5gp.


Snorter wrote:

That does actually make sense.

There's no point in minting coins, whose value is exactly equal to their weight, when melted down and sold as raw materials.

The point of running a Mint, is that the citizenry agree on a common value of the coinage, based on the design stamped onto it.
And they agree to trade using these coins at that agreed value.
And the ruler can declare that only those coins are legal tender within their jurisdiction.

No, it didn't work that way. What you are describing is fiduciary money, which is a very modern invention.

The citizens agreed that the minted coins were worth that much, because they trusted that the king's men weighted the coins correctly, instead of trusting the merchant and his balance, which could be tilted. When the king did not put enough gold in each gold piece, a big inflation happened, and the coin value diminished greatly. When Roman emperor Caracalla decided that he would mint silver coins with only half the real amount of silver, but the same "face value" minted, the Roman empire colapsed.

Fiduciary money, and people using useless papers printed by the goverment as it were real wealth, is just something that happen now. Back in time, nobody would use a piece of nothing which doesn't have any real (gold or silver) value to back it up.


@gustavo_iglesias: Like the U.S. Dollar?


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Snorter wrote:

That does actually make sense.

There's no point in minting coins, whose value is exactly equal to their weight, when melted down and sold as raw materials.

The point of running a Mint, is that the citizenry agree on a common value of the coinage, based on the design stamped onto it.
And they agree to trade using these coins at that agreed value.
And the ruler can declare that only those coins are legal tender within their jurisdiction.

No, it didn't work that way. What you are describing is fiduciary money, which is a very modern invention.

The citizens agreed that the minted coins were worth that much, because they trusted that the king's men weighted the coins correctly, instead of trusting the merchant and his balance, which could be tilted. When the king did not put enough gold in each gold piece, a big inflation happened, and the coin value diminished greatly. When Roman emperor Caracalla decided that he would mint silver coins with only half the real amount of silver, but the same "face value" minted, the Roman empire colapsed.

Fiduciary money, and people using useless papers printed by the goverment as it were real wealth, is just something that happen now. Back in time, nobody would use a piece of nothing which doesn't have any real (gold or silver) value to back it up.

That didn't seem to ring true to me either, but I didn't have a refutation at my fingertips.

I do know that coins were commonly weighed and of the practice of clipping or shaving bits of precious metal off the edges to sell while continuing to pass the coin off as face value.
Neither practice really makes sense if the coins aren't actually precious metals.


A thread I started inspired by this thread.


oh!! and speaking about spells:

how about to ask for a spell cards?
- i was homemading some of them for my magus (its more easy handle them, the ones you prepare were qhich you drag from your deck) and in one side maybe can have a lot of block to cross how many times we prepare it.

Paizo: you´re losing a lot of money here without spells cards, i want them, look:
- Corerule Book Spells Cards (529)??????????
- Advanced Player´s Guide Spells Cards (252)
- Ultimate Magic Spells Cards (230)
- Ultimate Combat Spells Cards (148)

maybe splited in 100´s cards

And left the advanced race guide spells, the inner sea magic, the pathfinder society guide, inner sea world guide spells...

jeezzz there´s a lot of spells and you people always using the same!!
:P


There are plenty of Spellcards available for free... But I wouldn't mind have a Quick reference set of cards that tell what each spell does.

Say:

Core Set.
APG Set.
Ultimate Magic Set.
Ultimate Combat.
Campaign Setting Volume X.
Player Companion Volume X.

Maybe even mix in the Campaign Setting & Player Companion Sets into a single group.

Give them a Simple Back. That way the decks/expansions can be easily mixed together into a large reference book.

Or just a simple App that allows quick referencing.

Liberty's Edge

Would love to see spell cards. That being said as soon as Paizo announces the product poster will then blame Paizo for making them spend more money on another product. How Paizo forces them is never really explained yet somehow Paizo does. Not to mention would surprise me if a few call it a step towards 4E. So I don't blame Paizo for releasing a certain number of products.


Azaelas Fayth wrote:

There are plenty of Spellcards available for free... But I wouldn't mind have a Quick reference set of cards that tell what each spell does.

Say:

Core Set.
APG Set.
Ultimate Magic Set.
Ultimate Combat.
Campaign Setting Volume X.
Player Companion Volume X.

Maybe even mix in the Campaign Setting & Player Companion Sets into a single group.

Give them a Simple Back. That way the decks/expansions can be easily mixed together into a large reference book.

Or just a simple App that allows quick referencing.

actualy the back must be diferent exactly for reference!!

and if it has space for write how many times i prepare this spell t´will nice!!


thejeff wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Snorter wrote:

That does actually make sense.

There's no point in minting coins, whose value is exactly equal to their weight, when melted down and sold as raw materials.

The point of running a Mint, is that the citizenry agree on a common value of the coinage, based on the design stamped onto it.
And they agree to trade using these coins at that agreed value.
And the ruler can declare that only those coins are legal tender within their jurisdiction.

No, it didn't work that way. What you are describing is fiduciary money, which is a very modern invention.

The citizens agreed that the minted coins were worth that much, because they trusted that the king's men weighted the coins correctly, instead of trusting the merchant and his balance, which could be tilted. When the king did not put enough gold in each gold piece, a big inflation happened, and the coin value diminished greatly. When Roman emperor Caracalla decided that he would mint silver coins with only half the real amount of silver, but the same "face value" minted, the Roman empire colapsed.

Fiduciary money, and people using useless papers printed by the goverment as it were real wealth, is just something that happen now. Back in time, nobody would use a piece of nothing which doesn't have any real (gold or silver) value to back it up.

That didn't seem to ring true to me either, but I didn't have a refutation at my fingertips.

I do know that coins were commonly weighed and of the practice of clipping or shaving bits of precious metal off the edges to sell while continuing to pass the coin off as face value.
Neither practice really makes sense if the coins aren't actually precious metals.

Early coins were made of a natural silver-gold mix (electrum), but the ratios and purities varied. Later coins were "pure" gold or silver or other metal.

In some ways the coins were worth what the government said they were, in others they were worth their weight in metal, you pretty much had to trust the government on purity.

Minted coins from your government were worth weight value, coins from that other government were worth a discounted value. Raw metals were taxed to make coins.


Vod Canockers wrote:


Early coins were made of a natural silver-gold mix (electrum), but the ratios and purities varied. Later coins were "pure" gold or silver or other metal.
In some ways the coins were worth what the government said they were, in others they were worth their weight in metal, you pretty much had to trust the government on purity.

Minted coins from your government were worth weight value, coins from that other government were worth a discounted value. Raw metals were taxed to make coins.

Or check. That's the nice thing about gold. It was hard to counterfeit because of its weight. Anything you dilute it with drops the weight enough to measure.

Admittedly silver's harder to detect and was more common.

Still, I don't see how the discount works. If your nation's gold coin weighs one ounce and is worth one ounce of gold, how can your neighbor's gold coin which also weighs an ounce be worth less?

Liberty's Edge

zagnabbit wrote:

Vod wrote:

Coins are 50 to the pound, so that is only 240 pounds of gold.

Yet another abstraction. And significantly lighter that previous editions. Basically all coins are now the equivalent of a US Quarter. Though that means that gold coins are even smaller, like dimes maybe.

Yuck, how underwhelming.

1lb of gold is like 15,000 US dollars today, each gp is a $300 dollar bill

Edit: Mind you gold is stupid high right now though. It wilp crash before 2020 (if you have lots of it I recommend turning it into real estate which is stupid low)


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shallowsoul wrote:
I hope he doesn't continue to let his opinion influence the actual rules of the game.

Irony.


Coridan wrote:
zagnabbit wrote:

Vod wrote:

Coins are 50 to the pound, so that is only 240 pounds of gold.

Yet another abstraction. And significantly lighter that previous editions. Basically all coins are now the equivalent of a US Quarter. Though that means that gold coins are even smaller, like dimes maybe.

Yuck, how underwhelming.

1lb of gold is like 15,000 US dollars today, each gp is a $300 dollar bill

Edit: Mind you gold is stupid high right now though. It wilp crash before 2020 (if you have lots of it I recommend turning it into real estate which is stupid low)

Keep in mind, gold coins aren't always solid gold. More likely a gold alloy.

But yeah, complaints about gold pieces weighing too little are unfounded. Gold is expensive and a gold piece should be light.


Gold is expensive for us.
The value in a fantasy world is totally subjective. 1gp is worth 1gp. Now a Chelish 1gp might be worth less in Andor since it's "devil money". But that I'd not covered in rules but has a historical precedent.

One of those precedents is the Money Changer, a guy in town who converts foreign currency to the local currency for a small fee. Not uncommon in Old Europe. One of the reasons we no longer use precious currency is that it too easily can exit a state, which is bad for the (small)
state if all of their money ends up somewhere else. The above example of Roman coin manipulation, one of the reasons it hurt was that it devalued all Roman currency in the outskirts of the empire, which in turn cost it's wealthiest citizens money as their currency was no longer the dominant choice for transactions.

Yeah I occasionally use some money fluctuation in my campaign worlds, it's a great way for characters to keep up with the wider world with an actual impact on them as residents.


johnlocke90 wrote:
Coridan wrote:
zagnabbit wrote:

Vod wrote:

Coins are 50 to the pound, so that is only 240 pounds of gold.

Yet another abstraction. And significantly lighter that previous editions. Basically all coins are now the equivalent of a US Quarter. Though that means that gold coins are even smaller, like dimes maybe.

Yuck, how underwhelming.

1lb of gold is like 15,000 US dollars today, each gp is a $300 dollar bill

Edit: Mind you gold is stupid high right now though. It wilp crash before 2020 (if you have lots of it I recommend turning it into real estate which is stupid low)

Keep in mind, gold coins aren't always solid gold. More likely a gold alloy.

But yeah, complaints about gold pieces weighing too little are unfounded. Gold is expensive and a gold piece should be light.

Gold coins are solid gold. Or at least very close to it. That's the whole point of a gold-based currency. Sure, some countries tried to cheat by using cheaper impure gold, but it rarely worked for long.

If it's a gold alloy, or at least a gold alloy with more than a little non-gold in it, it's not worth as much. If your country has any trade with others, they'll quickly figure it out and devalue your currency.


thejeff wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:


Early coins were made of a natural silver-gold mix (electrum), but the ratios and purities varied. Later coins were "pure" gold or silver or other metal.
In some ways the coins were worth what the government said they were, in others they were worth their weight in metal, you pretty much had to trust the government on purity.

Minted coins from your government were worth weight value, coins from that other government were worth a discounted value. Raw metals were taxed to make coins.

Or check. That's the nice thing about gold. It was hard to counterfeit because of its weight. Anything you dilute it with drops the weight enough to measure.

Admittedly silver's harder to detect and was more common.

Still, I don't see how the discount works. If your nation's gold coin weighs one ounce and is worth one ounce of gold, how can your neighbor's gold coin which also weighs an ounce be worth less?

Mostly because your government won't accept them at face value, it's a form of taxation. Your government will restrike or remake them and charge the same sort of fee for raw metal.

I imagine some border towns of friendly nations will treat them equally, because the coins are swapped so frequently.

The Deed of Paksennarion by Elizabeth Moon, has a very good explanation of it in the second book,

story spoiler:
when the hero takes a treasure trove to a money changer.


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My GM tried to be Shallowsoul today when our Magus tried to cast Infernal Healing while he was at low HP.

Thank god I talked him down.

Though he did make a good point, the same point others have made I believe: Why even have inexpensive components if they don't matter?

Though I agree for different reasons (He thought they should probably be enforced, I think maybe inexpensive components should be done away with if they don't matter), I can see that argument definitely.


Vod Canockers wrote:

Mostly because your government won't accept them at face value, it's a form of taxation. Your government will restrike or remake them and charge the same sort of fee for raw metal.

I imagine some border towns of friendly nations will treat them equally, because the coins are swapped so frequently.

The Deed of Paksennarion by Elizabeth Moon, has a very good explanation of it in the second book, ** spoiler omitted **

Real life reference? I see how it could work, I'm just not sure it was commonly done that way.

Honestly most people throughout out much of medieval times didn't have much to do with coins. Subsistence farming, taxes paid in kind and barter with your neighbors, don't really leave much of a need for money.

Those who did use coins (especially gold) regularly were nobility, trading merchants, guild artisans, etc. Exactly those most likely to need to trade beyond the borders.


Rynjin wrote:

My GM tried to be Shallowsoul today when our Magus tried to cast Infernal Healing while he was at low HP.

Thank god I talked him down.

Though he did make a good point, the same point others have made I believe: Why even have inexpensive components if they don't matter?

Though I agree for different reasons (He thought they should probably be enforced, I think maybe inexpensive components should be done away with if they don't matter), I can see that argument definitely.

Eh the reason they're in there is pretty simple, it's for flavor.

It's the same reason all feats and abilities have a sentence/bit of flavor text which has no impact on their actual rules applications.

Silver Crusade

gnomersy wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

My GM tried to be Shallowsoul today when our Magus tried to cast Infernal Healing while he was at low HP.

Thank god I talked him down.

Though he did make a good point, the same point others have made I believe: Why even have inexpensive components if they don't matter?

Though I agree for different reasons (He thought they should probably be enforced, I think maybe inexpensive components should be done away with if they don't matter), I can see that argument definitely.

Eh the reason they're in there is pretty simple, it's for flavor.

It's the same reason all feats and abilities have a sentence/bit of flavor text which has no impact on their actual rules applications.

What is flavor when the flavor doesn't make sense in the situation?

Devils Blood: Well I know we haven't been anywhere near devils or a bazaar that would actually carry it but somehow you have it anyway.

Besides, the player's can come up with their own flavor just fine.


shallowsoul wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

My GM tried to be Shallowsoul today when our Magus tried to cast Infernal Healing while he was at low HP.

Thank god I talked him down.

Though he did make a good point, the same point others have made I believe: Why even have inexpensive components if they don't matter?

Though I agree for different reasons (He thought they should probably be enforced, I think maybe inexpensive components should be done away with if they don't matter), I can see that argument definitely.

Eh the reason they're in there is pretty simple, it's for flavor.

It's the same reason all feats and abilities have a sentence/bit of flavor text which has no impact on their actual rules applications.

What is flavor when the flavor doesn't make sense in the situation?

Devils Blood: Well I know we haven't been anywhere near devils or a bazaar that would actually carry it but somehow you have it anyway.

Besides, the player's can come up with their own flavor just fine.

*shrug* Boohoo? If you want to be all anal about the flavor text then you're free to rewrite every single entry in the book where the mat. components are worthless into something which is similarly worthless in your world, problem solved.


shallowsoul wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

My GM tried to be Shallowsoul today when our Magus tried to cast Infernal Healing while he was at low HP.

Thank god I talked him down.

Though he did make a good point, the same point others have made I believe: Why even have inexpensive components if they don't matter?

Though I agree for different reasons (He thought they should probably be enforced, I think maybe inexpensive components should be done away with if they don't matter), I can see that argument definitely.

Eh the reason they're in there is pretty simple, it's for flavor.

It's the same reason all feats and abilities have a sentence/bit of flavor text which has no impact on their actual rules applications.

What is flavor when the flavor doesn't make sense in the situation?

Devils Blood: Well I know we haven't been anywhere near devils or a bazaar that would actually carry it but somehow you have it anyway.

Besides, the player's can come up with their own flavor just fine.

In this case, I bet the thinking was "This spell is evil. I think it would be cool to have devil's blood as a material component for it." or "this spell lets you use a dragon's breath weapon, I think it would be cool to have a dragon scale as a material component.".

I doubt whether it made logical sense for these things to be free and widespread never entered the creators mind.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

As by RAW, i disregard any spell components that have a price of below 1 gp. as i assume that any and all of those are within a spell component pouch. As far as Eschew Materials is concerned, it's one of those free-be feats. I don't care if its not that useful, Endurance isn't that great a feat but Rangers still keep it and they don't complain. I will require spellcasters without it to have the pouch on hand at all times...

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Devil's blood... now I wonder what country would have that in abundance and would be interested in seeing if any magics might be able to make use of that *coughcheliaxcough*... Dragon Scale... Rare?? really?? In baseline Golarion neither of these components are particularly rare. They might not be common but they aren't rare. We might not be in Eberron but we sure aren't in Krynn either.

Baseline rules assume that there are a lot of people of differing power levels all across the world(s). In many of the bigger towns, it isn't that hard to find a wizard that could cast up to 8th level spells for a price.

Yes dragons, demons, and devils are meant to be big baddies yet we an entire Imp colony over in Korvosa and the imps are viewed more as a nuisance than anything else *BAM* Devil's blood for a really, really cheap price as imps are a dime a dozen. Golarion has had gods and demigods and even beings stronger then demigods walk its ground. It is the prison to a terrible universe destroying being. A single witch of untold power teleported into this realm and in a period of 23 days, brought an entire nation down to its knees. And just think... we haven't even gotten to the mythic fighting men of the world!

These things are happening everywhere. There are high-level npcs all across the world... and you're going to complain about devil's blood and a few tiny scales of a dragon being considered inexpensive?!?!?!

Listen if these things are very rare in your own world or campaign and you want to institute a GP cost, go right ahead, no one here is going to make a big deal about it, most of us probably don't care. Our recommendation of course is to let your players know before they memorize and are told that they don't have the expensive materials that they didn't know they needed. But Infernal Healing is SPECIFICALLY a Golarion spell... and by my counting devil's blood is NOT a rare thing there.

EDIT: Oh and for the record... lesser planar binding and all the higher level variants are WITHOUT material components entirely (well sav for some silver dust for the magic circle but that's pretty cheap). An entire couple of sections of Golarion are built ENTIRELY on the premise of planar binding Genies and Devils and using their power to bring enormous wealth and power. And these places are NOT mythic.


thejeff wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:

Mostly because your government won't accept them at face value, it's a form of taxation. Your government will restrike or remake them and charge the same sort of fee for raw metal.

I imagine some border towns of friendly nations will treat them equally, because the coins are swapped so frequently.

The Deed of Paksennarion by Elizabeth Moon, has a very good explanation of it in the second book, ** spoiler omitted **

Real life reference? I see how it could work, I'm just not sure it was commonly done that way.

Honestly most people throughout out much of medieval times didn't have much to do with coins. Subsistence farming, taxes paid in kind and barter with your neighbors, don't really leave much of a need for money.

Those who did use coins (especially gold) regularly were nobility, trading merchants, guild artisans, etc. Exactly those most likely to need to trade beyond the borders.

A real life reference? Ask anyone that has gone to a foreign country and used a different currency. The merchants accept it, but don't give anywhere near the exchange rate. Even if you go to a bank to exchange, they charge a fee.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

xevious, while I disagree with the stance taken by several posters here - that it is "bad development" to have flavor text that doesn't necessarily make sense - I do have to defend their position vis-a-vis the fact that the game does not assume play in Golarion, and therefore one ought not need assume Golarion tropes to make the rules work.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

One of the spells that is being questioned: Infernal Healing (The one requiring devil's blood); is in fact a Golarion spell, published specifically in Inner Sea World Guide, which in fact means that it was not meant for Baseline experience but rather for the Golarion experience and thus it was designed with Golarion tropes in mind.

And as to the other spells in question: the polymorph spells, the dragon breath spells; my stance is this: The designers might say that they design the core rule books to be open and not world aligned and I do not doubt these statements. Yet I do also believe that the design in most of the core rule books matches to Golarion perfectly. I think the Core Rule Book and other rule books in the main line ASSUME Golarion, not just with its gods but in the way most of the rules and spells work. The difference between the core rule book and the inner sea world guide in this regard is that the Core Rule Book doesn't "say" it's attached to a world even if it is designed with a specific world in mind.

I completely stand by his right to Rule 0 these spells. I would not deny him this at all but I am fairly certain that the CRB was designed WITH Golarion in mind (and vice versa of course) even as they did not use any proper names beyond Pathfinder Chronicler and the Iconics.


shallowsoul wrote:
Devils Blood: Well I know we haven't been anywhere near devils or a bazaar that would actually carry it but somehow you have it anyway.

But it doesn't have a cost associated with it. By that logic, it is cheap - extremely cheap, in fact - which implies that it is common. The characters don't need to find devils or some strange bazaar where they could buy it, because it is common enough to be easily accessible. Why that is may be debatable, but there are plenty of reasons to think that it could be. (Adventurers kill a group of devils. They now have several gallons of devil's blood, which they put on market. How many spells can this power? Hell, maybe there's a Church of Asmodeus somewhere whose clerics bleed willing devils, cure them via spells, and sell the blood in order to generate revenue for whatever they want.) Regardless, the assumption is that it is easy to come by.

Same goes for dragon scales. Dragons may have thousands of scales that they shed repeatedly throughout their life. You don't even need an adventuring party to kill them, you just need people to find these scales, which might be all over the place. Whatever the case may be, it's a negligible cost, and the party wizard can, in theory, pick some up wherever they want.

In a homebrew setting that doesn't have devils or dragons, then obviously some modifications would be needed. As the game assumes these components are commonplace though, then I would think the replacements should be too, and everything works out exactly the same (if the spells stay in such a setting anyway... Form of the Dragon in a world with no dragons would admittedly be odd).

Eh, my 2 copper on this anyway.


What I want to know is does the OP make his players get wax for bowstrings, oil for wooden weapons, whetstones for edged or pointed metal weapons, basic smithing tools and an anvil to repair dents and chips in metal armor, leather strips for scabbards and ties? Do archers have to restring their bows at the start of each combat or is it okay for them to walk around with strung bows for hours (stretching the bowstring and making it useless), after rain (does it ever rain?) do players have to get the rust out of their weapons?

There are excellent game systems for those who want to get involved in minutiae but Pathfinder wants you to focus on the more exciting things rather than if players have enough dry twigs and kindling to build a fire.

Shadow Lodge

It's not just Golarion, it's a common fantasy standard that body parts of certain magical creatures are readily available. Look at Harry Potter - wizards' wands can have dragon heartstring cores, which is much less readily available than dragon scales. Potion ingredients include dragon's blood, fairy wings, and unicorn horn. Note that potions in HP don't cost galleons apiece to make - the fairy wings are used in a second year potion (read: middle school chemistry experiment). Historically, things like bits of burial shrouds and the teeth of hanged men were used for spells or remedies.

If you want certain ingredients to be rare, that's fine, but it's not unreasonable in a typical high-magic world for the minor, shed scales of small dragons to be available for cheap.

Silver Crusade

Weirdo wrote:

It's not just Golarion, it's a common fantasy standard that body parts of certain magical creatures are readily available. Look at Harry Potter - wizards' wands can have dragon heartstring cores, which is much less readily available than dragon scales. Potion ingredients include dragon's blood, fairy wings, and unicorn horn. Note that potions in HP don't cost galleons apiece to make - the fairy wings are used in a second year potion (read: middle school chemistry experiment). Historically, things like bits of burial shrouds and the teeth of hanged men were used for spells or remedies.

If you want certain ingredients to be rare, that's fine, but it's not unreasonable in a typical high-magic world for the minor, shed scales of small dragons to be available for cheap.

Sorry but Harry Potter is not a good comparison unless that is how you run your world.


shallowsoul wrote:
Sorry but Harry Potter is not a good comparison unless that is how you run your world.

Why isn't it?

Silver Crusade

Rynjin wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Sorry but Harry Potter is not a good comparison unless that is how you run your world.
Why isn't it?

Because Harry Potter is a style of fantasy where magic is a day to day thing where you can buy magic wands around every corner. Not everyone runs their games like that so its a poor comparison unless that is how you specifically run your games.


I'd actually agree with the availability of odd items issue.
But that is not to say that you could or should be able to reload for free anywhere on the planet. A village like Sandpoint has some stuff available, but not everything.

I also practice a theory that spell components are one of the best impetuses to an unforeseen adventure. After years of it it's pretty rare that the fighter doesn't opt to tag along with the wizard as he scrapes poo off rocks:
A) because it's funny to watch and mock his buddy in the process
B) because something exciting might happen
C) it beats staying in town and doing a "real job".

The Spell Component Pouch is a glaring Achilles Heel for the prepped caster. I don't think it's a douche move to target it as such. It's not considered a douche move when you hit the fighter with Will Save Effects every other encounter (which happens in every game I play in as a pickup).

Quote:

Paldasan wrote:

What I want to know is does the OP make his players get wax for bowstrings, oil for wooden weapons, whetstones for edged or pointed metal weapons, basic smithing tools and an anvil to repair dents and chips in metal armor, leather strips for scabbards and ties? Do archers have to restring their bows at the start of each combat or is it okay for them to walk around with strung bows for hours (stretching the bowstring and making it useless), after rain (does it ever rain?) do players have to get the rust out of their weapons?

I'm not the OP, but I'll answer.

To a certain degree, yes I do. It encourages Skill Usage. Specifically Craft, Profession which are kinda ignored in some games. My players tend to take them and I ensure that there are benefits beyond just not having gear degrade. In the end my goal is not to punish players but to leave them with more well rounded characters. *

I do use a variant magic item crafting system, that doesn't require spellcasting and also offers some non magical masterwork mechanical advantages. So there are strong reasons for non casters to take craft skills without getting feat taxed into obsolescence. .


shallowsoul wrote:
Because Harry Potter is a style of fantasy where magic is a day to day thing where you can buy magic wands around every corner. Not everyone runs their games like that so its a poor comparison unless that is how you specifically run your games.

Maybe not everyone runs their game like that, but that's the default assumption of the game. Any wealthy merchant is likely to have at least a few magic items, and anyone can cast simple spells with a little training (or the right background). Magic is extremely common in Pathfinder.

Shadow Lodge

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It's the first high-magic fantasy example that came to mind that listed magical ingredients (EDIT: and wands in Harry Potter are more like spellbooks in PF since most wizards can't cast properly without one.) For something more high-brow, try some of the ingredients used by the witches in Shakespeare's Macbeth:

Scale of dragon
Toad, that under cold stone, Days and nights has thirty-one
Slips of yew sliver'd in the moon's eclipse
Witches' mummy
Liver of blaspheming Jew
Nose of Turk, and Tartar's lips
Finger of birth-strangled babe ditch-deliver'd by a drab

The recipe calls not only for the dragon's scale, ingredients gathered under odd conditions, and parts of particular ethnic grops, but for a finger from a child who was delivered in a ditch by a prostitute and strangled at birth.

The PF/D&D material components are really not all that weird.


zagnabbit wrote:
Quote:

Paldasan wrote:

What I want to know is does the OP make his players get wax for bowstrings, oil for wooden weapons, whetstones for edged or pointed metal weapons, basic smithing tools and an anvil to repair dents and chips in metal armor, leather strips for scabbards and ties? Do archers have to restring their bows at the start of each combat or is it okay for them to walk around with strung bows for hours (stretching the bowstring and making it useless), after rain (does it ever rain?) do players have to get the rust out of their weapons?

I'm not the OP, but I'll answer.

To a certain degree, yes I do. It encourages Skill Usage. Specifically Craft, Profession which are kinda ignored in some games. My players tend to take them and I ensure that there are benefits beyond just not having gear degrade. In the end my goal is not to punish players but to leave them with more well rounded characters. *

I do use a variant magic item crafting system, that doesn't require spellcasting and also offers some non magical masterwork mechanical advantages. So there are strong...

The difference here being the benefits to 'taxing' your BSF and 'rouges' with craft skills and occasional repairs. Taxing the spell component pouch for cheap (the sub 1gp stuff that never has to be bought according to the rules) components provides no long term interest to the spell caster.

Unless of course you encourage them to take craft 'gather body parts' and profession 'find obscure matter' which later gives them the ability to do something they otherwise couldn't.

The idea of a spell component pouch is to allow certain very powerful spellcasters to be disarmed, which is far more damaging an event to a spellcaster than classes with weapons. Having your players spend money on it takes away their opportunity to buy 'cool stuff' in an unequal manner. The BSF doesn't face the same penalty, yet all players need to buy rations in equal amounts (regardless of their build and diet). It's about keeping things equal.


shallowsoul wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Sorry but Harry Potter is not a good comparison unless that is how you run your world.
Why isn't it?
Because Harry Potter is a style of fantasy where magic is a day to day thing where you can buy magic wands around every corner. Not everyone runs their games like that so its a poor comparison unless that is how you specifically run your games.

Considering that a Thorp (under 20 people) is supposed to have 1d4 minor magic items. I would say that the Harry Potter availability is a fair example, although Golaria seems to have even more accessible magic.


zagnabbit wrote:


The Spell Component Pouch is a glaring Achilles Heel for the prepped caster. I don't think it's a douche move to target it as such. It's not considered a douche move when you hit the fighter with Will Save Effects every other encounter (which happens in every game I play in as a pickup).

Except that the caster can be hit with the Fort Save Effects every other encounter too, so SCP =/= Will Save Effects.

Liberty's Edge

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shallowsoul wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Sorry but Harry Potter is not a good comparison unless that is how you run your world.
Why isn't it?
Because Harry Potter is a style of fantasy where magic is a day to day thing where you can buy magic wands around every corner. Not everyone runs their games like that so its a poor comparison unless that is how you specifically run your games.

I keep hearing this same excuse for your stance. "Not everyone runs their game that way."

The flavor texts were written assuming a certain play method for the game. It has even been explicitly called out as such by one of the games creators.

If you don't play with that flavor, then you are explicitly playing the game in a non-standard way. Which is totally cool, but don't ignore the spelled out facts. If it doesn't have a GP cost it was just something the writers put in the game to sound neat and help describe things during play.

The explicit balance of the game was already established, and using this as a crutch for your house rules is poor form.

If you make house rules stand by them on their own merits. But apply them equally across the board.

You obviously have a problem with casters, but I don't think this is really the ship you wanna sail your crusade on. Its got leaks. Go back to the original problem and figure out how it works better for you.

And hope your players agree with you.


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Thats not quite fair.
Many of us who played the older editions of the game have been less than comfortable with the Magic Big Box Store that the game has devolved into. Gygax called it the "Monty Haul" campaign and it was something that was frequently avoided by long term groups but really popular with the newbies and the munchkins.
Many of those same players are still using their old homebrew campaign worlds or one of the older Pub worlds like Greyhawk or FR. Neither of which was designed as a place where you could pick up a CL 17 magic item as easily as a sway backed horse.

Also not everyone is convinced that the component rules are "flavor text". They are mechanically grounded rules. That the M is handwaived but the S is not is part of the reason for the thread. With each edition of the game the spellcasters get more powerful. But how much of it is a lack of system balance and how much of it is player base laziness?

If players disagree with a relative magic level they are welcome to do so, but if they aren't volunteering to run games as a GM then they can only complain so far. I play with a guy who outright bans spellcasters in any form. I like wizards but I still play with him because his games are fun.


zagnabbit wrote:
Also not everyone is convinced that the component rules are "flavor text". They are mechanically grounded rules. That the M is handwaived but the S is not is part of the reason for the thread.

There's two parts to this though. One is the M component. The other is the actual material in question.

The M component is certainly part of the rules, and personally, I don't see it handwaved, nor would I run it that way. This has specific rules that govern how it is used (i.e. you need a spell component pouch, or Eschew Materials).

The actual material however is only relevant if it has an associated cost. For anything else, you're good if you've got the pouch. Put simply, the material that you're actually using, whether it be dragon scales or bat guano, really is just flavor text.


Paldasan wrote:
zagnabbit wrote:


The Spell Component Pouch is a glaring Achilles Heel for the prepped caster. I don't think it's a douche move to target it as such. It's not considered a douche move when you hit the fighter with Will Save Effects every other encounter (which happens in every game I play in as a pickup).
Except that the caster can be hit with the Fort Save Effects every other encounter too, so SCP =/= Will Save Effects.

Except, in practice, this seldom seems to happen.

Perhaps because the Fort Saves have a better chance of outright killing a character where will save just make them suck.

Also;
What's BSF? Help me out you lost me on that.


BSF = Big Stupid Fighter


Ahhhh, another meme I've managed to cut out.

It's hardly a tax. Most of the BSF's skill points would otherwise go to either Perception or Intimidate? They still do, it doesn't take max ranks to mend chain mesh. A single point investment in either Craft (arms and armor) or Profession (Soldier) will do.

And yes there are benefits for the wizard in harvesting body parts Knowledge (biology) or Heal.

Not being able to buy "cool stuff" in an equal manner is already written into the core rules with the default crafting system and the wizards free bonus item crafting feats. The cost of the feat is far less of a hit for a caster, who's real class feature is spellcasting, than a fighter whose class feature is combat feats. Rogues are even worse off, though they could steal magic items for free I guess, but that'll blow the WBL guidelines out of the water pretty quick.


Vod Canockers wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:

Mostly because your government won't accept them at face value, it's a form of taxation. Your government will restrike or remake them and charge the same sort of fee for raw metal.

I imagine some border towns of friendly nations will treat them equally, because the coins are swapped so frequently.

The Deed of Paksennarion by Elizabeth Moon, has a very good explanation of it in the second book, ** spoiler omitted **

Real life reference? I see how it could work, I'm just not sure it was commonly done that way.

Honestly most people throughout out much of medieval times didn't have much to do with coins. Subsistence farming, taxes paid in kind and barter with your neighbors, don't really leave much of a need for money.

Those who did use coins (especially gold) regularly were nobility, trading merchants, guild artisans, etc. Exactly those most likely to need to trade beyond the borders.

A real life reference? Ask anyone that has gone to a foreign country and used a different currency. The merchants accept it, but don't give anywhere near the exchange rate. Even if you go to a bank to exchange, they charge a fee.

The exchange of modern fiat currencies (or even of metal backed paper currencies) has nothing to do with exchanging coins whose value is their weight in gold.


thejeff wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:

Mostly because your government won't accept them at face value, it's a form of taxation. Your government will restrike or remake them and charge the same sort of fee for raw metal.

I imagine some border towns of friendly nations will treat them equally, because the coins are swapped so frequently.

The Deed of Paksennarion by Elizabeth Moon, has a very good explanation of it in the second book, ** spoiler omitted **

Real life reference? I see how it could work, I'm just not sure it was commonly done that way.

Honestly most people throughout out much of medieval times didn't have much to do with coins. Subsistence farming, taxes paid in kind and barter with your neighbors, don't really leave much of a need for money.

Those who did use coins (especially gold) regularly were nobility, trading merchants, guild artisans, etc. Exactly those most likely to need to trade beyond the borders.

A real life reference? Ask anyone that has gone to a foreign country and used a different currency. The merchants accept it, but don't give anywhere near the exchange rate. Even if you go to a bank to exchange, they charge a fee.
The exchange of modern fiat currencies (or even of metal backed paper currencies) has nothing to do with exchanging coins whose value is their weight in gold.

It operates in the same way. Governments and money changers have to make money. One way they do this is charge a fee for swapping foreign currency for local currency. Merchants want to maximize their profits so the add that fee plus a little more.


Trust in the local currency is a big deal. One not supported in the core rules. The money changer was rampant in 1st Ed games. Bit I haven't seen deviated coins since Forgotten Realms.

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