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The problem with this, is that playstyles vary. Some groups like to do several encounters in a row (be it dungeon crawl or otherwise), while some others tend to play a long period of exploration/social interaction, followed by a single more flashy fight. If the fights are balanced and tailored to the idea of not being threatening, but wearing down the PC a bit, those groups that use the later playstyle will stomp over the encounters. Losing 20% of your HP is worrysome if you expect 4 other encounters, but it's trivial if it is your only encounter in the day.
That's why it's so difficult to build a game system that please everyone.
Those are not really playstyles though, but differences in encounter design. If the idea of an adventure is to have four encounters in the same day, then you try to create encounters that will on average cost 20% of the party's resources. If in the next adventure you plan on only having a combat every two days, then you those combats can likely be much tougher, created to drain maybe 50% to 70% of a party's resources (depending upon how quickly natural healing works in the game).
When I ran my Eberron 4e campaign I was having maybe only 1 combat every other day (the rest was investigation, social interaction and downtime travelling) and I got frustrated with 4e's rules that have PCs recover all HP and Healing Surges overnight as it meant I couldn't wear them down over time (thus to make any combat life threatening it had to do so in that single combat, a tricky balancing act).
That same campaign would have worked better in 3.5 where players maybe recover 1x to 2x their character level in HP each night (or 2x to 4x for a full day of rest).
Assuming an average Hit Die of d8 and Con bonus of +1 and average Hit Dice rolls each level then per level a character will have 5.5 HP. So if the PCs will have two nights rest without medical aid they are likely to recover 2 HP per character level (almost 40% of their HPs). So if I as GM wanted them to go into the next battle a bit worn down, say at 80% efficiency I could design my original encounter to cost the PCs 60% of their HP (they would then regain approximately 40% of total HP, to begin next encounter at 80%).
TL;DR - its not so much an issue of playstyle, but one of encounter design, so the same game system can accommodate those different styles of adventure if the encounter design of those adventure changes appropriately too.
I got to say, I don't see what the big issue is. I haven't seen CLW wands used that much past maybe a few levels like 4-6. Hell it is annoying to do multiple channelings of 7d6 at 14th level to get people back up to fighting level, the thought of doing 1d8+1 multiple times just makes my head ache (or maybe my hand from doing all that rolling and erasing/writing).
I don't know, maybe the people I play with are more miserly, but the thought of willy-nilly using resources that you have to go and spend money on to renew vs. sticking with spells and things that renew at the start of the next day is something we have never been comfortable with. Yeah, it maybe a small cost when you are high level, but when you are saving for that next big boost to your favored weapon, it seems to be a waste of money.
I got to say, I don't see what the big issue is. I haven't seen CLW wands used that much past maybe a few levels like 4-6. Hell it is annoying to do multiple channelings of 7d6 at 14th level to get people back up to fighting level, the thought of doing 1d8+1 multiple times just makes my head ache (or maybe my hand from doing all that rolling and erasing/writing).
I let my players to use 5hp per charge instead of 1d8+1 (average 5.5). Everyone take that option.
The problem with this, is that playstyles vary. Some groups like to do several encounters in a row (be it dungeon crawl or otherwise), while some others tend to play a long period of exploration/social interaction, followed by a single more flashy fight. If the fights are balanced and tailored to the idea of not being threatening, but wearing down the PC a bit, those groups that use the later playstyle will stomp over the encounters. Losing 20% of your HP is worrysome if you expect 4 other encounters, but it's trivial if it is your only encounter in the day.
That's why it's so difficult to build a game system that please everyone.
Those are not really playstyles though, but differences in encounter design. If the idea of an adventure is to have four encounters in the same day, then you try to create encounters that will on average cost 20% of the party's resources. If in the next adventure you plan on only having a combat every two days, then you those combats can likely be much tougher, created to drain maybe 50% to 70% of a party's resources (depending upon how quickly natural healing works in the game).
Those are playstyles too. Dungeon crawl vs political heavy are playstyles, and dungeon crawls tend to be more encounter after encounter. While political heavy use so much time in the session making social encounters and social roleplaying, that you have less than one hour for combat. That tend to make the combats scarcer, but more dangerous.
The problem with making the encounters based on resources, is that games that use few encounters and lot of downtime, recover fully from every encounter to face the next one. I'm not talking about HP only (which also are recovered, as the healers do their job in the downtime). I mean all resources. Spells, for example. Daily uses of Smite Evil. Rounds of Rage. Daily powers in 4e. Etc.
As I said, it's very difficult to balance a game system that fit every playstyle. Unless you make *All* resources per encounter, parties that do 1 encounter then rest, will always face different balance values that parties that face 5 encounters in a row.
Assuming an average Hit Die of d8 and Con bonus of +1 and average Hit Dice rolls each level then per level a character will have 5.5 HP. So if the PCs will have two nights rest without medical aid they are likely to recover 2 HP per character level (almost 40% of their HPs). So if I as GM wanted them to go into the next battle a bit worn down, say at 80% efficiency I could design my original encounter to cost the PCs 60% of their HP (they would then regain approximately 40% of total HP, to begin next encounter at 80%
In Pathfinder, with 2 days of rest, everyone is full healed. Unless your party is purposedly trying to avoid healing (or the DM ban it), some class will have lay on hands, chanelling, healing spells, heal skill, healing hex, access to wands, magic bandages, etc. Two full nights of spell rest mean the healers get everybody up.
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Those are playstyles too. Dungeon crawl vs political heavy are playstyles, and dungeon crawls tend to be more encounter after encounter.
Hmm, I guess you could call those playstyles as well, I think our definitions might be a little different. In that Eberron campaign I mentioned it was quite political and investigative, but the finale involved a sort of dungeon crawl - getting into a Thrane church via a secret entrance guarded by traps and elemental warriors, then once in a confrontation with a rival group, then taking on a few Silver Flame guards to finally confront the corrupt priest.
Equally, an action heavy campaign could equally have no downtime or lots of it, depending upon the transition between scenes - the difference between moving down a tunnel to the next dungeon chamber, to hopping an airship to the next location where you are ambushed on arrival. Both situations have two action encounters pretty much back to back, but one has a day or two of off screen downtime between them.
I'm not talking about HP only (which also are recovered, as the healers do their job in the downtime). I mean all resources. Spells, for example. Daily uses of Smite Evil. Rounds of Rage. Daily powers in 4e. Etc.
Oh yes, I agree with this, I was pretty much exclusively talking about Hit Points as we are talking about Wands of Cure Light Wounds.
Still, I must admit, thinking about this again does make me appreciate 4e's design even more. Each encounter the GM can expect the PCs to have their At-Wills and Encounter powers, and probably full HP but still with the feel of being worn out (healing surges). Daily Powers are something the GM can't necessarily assume will be used in a particular enocunter, but I would tend to assume those get used to offset any bad encounters, e.g. if a PC gets Critically Hit another PC might pull out a Daily to finish the encounter sooner than otherwise might be the case - hopefully restoring the balance somewhat.
As I said, it's very difficult to balance a game system that fit every playstyle. Unless you make *All* resources per encounter, parties that do 1 encounter then rest, will always face different balance values that parties that face 5 encounters in a row.
Hmm, I am still not sure I agree, if you as GM know there is going to only be one encounter then you can assume they will use all their spells and powers if necessary and so can design your encounter accordingly.
Unless you are talking about the differing playstyles of groups who approach the same situation differently? E.g. the GM expects the group to do four encounters:
Group A novas in the first encounter and then rest expecting to be able to pick up again where they left off
Group B use resources with greater caution and expect the dungeon denizen to reclaim lost territory and make preparations if they leave and so press on and do the four encounters.
In this instance, yes, the same adventure won't be balanced for Group A, if the GM designed for playstyle of Group B (i.e. expecting the PCs to continue on) but then acquiesces to the playstyle of Group A (doesn't have the dungeon denizens retake the chamber Group A cleared before resting.
However, the GM at this point should speak to the group about the proposed playstyles. If the players expect to have to nova and rest after each encounter, and are then surprised the encounter was so easy, the GM needs to make it clear that he does not expect the same.
In Pathfinder, with 2 days of rest, everyone is full healed. Unless your party is purposedly trying to avoid healing (or the DM ban it), some class will have lay on hands, chanelling, healing spells, heal skill, healing hex, access to wands, magic bandages, etc. Two full nights of spell rest mean the healers get everybody up.
Yep, and that for me a problem with the 3.5 and PF rulesets. If I want a gritty game I have to either disallow divine healers and wands of CLW, or not have a single full day of downtime if I want to keep up pressure on resources, particularly HPs.
If the system is going to allow such healing to be common without such DM bans, then I say build that into the system no matter what the character type (i.e. as 4e did), so you can have a non-magical party be able to play through the same adventure without significant issues.
Personally, I would rather have campaign options built into the system that would allow the GM to make healing, including magical healing, easier or harder as appropriate to the playstyle of the group (D&D Next has done this with natural healing at least with several options).
I personally would want magical healing to be infrequent and only used when someone has taken a grievous wound, perhaps because its expensive (rare material components), time consuming (a day long ritual to restore a person to half hit points) or because the deity granting the power does not do so trivially (recipient must be dying to be able to healed).
Doesn't matter whose fault it was, it was part of the design of the dungeon, as it were. SOMETHING would have caused all of what followed.
That was totally Merry's fault with him kicking the stone down the well.
I've run into this in APs too. The party has a choice of staying at an inn, trusting an NPC to hide them, or camping in the wilderness to try to evade their enemies. But whatever the players choose to do is the wrong answer. Wherever they choose to go, they will be attacked in the middle of the night, no matter how many precautions they take, because the AP calls for them to be attacked in the middle of the night. The actual text is something like, "Wherever they decide to rest, the following encounter ensues...."
Personally, I despise the kind of design that invalidates player input in the game, but APs are full of them. You're going to have that combat encounter, no matter how smart you try to play. :P
There are quite more. In almost every long dungeon. Sometimes it's blatant "here the PC can rest", sometimes is descripted in-game instead of meta-game ("this room has not been used in weeks"), sometimes is more subtle ("this room is a false stair. It was going to be a second level for the dungeon, but it was never built"). But you always have a "PC please rest here" room.
Even worse are the rooms that are not only described as safe for the PCs to rest in, no matter how many monsters are just down the hall, but which have a magical fountain that acts as a healing potion. There's one in Crypt of the Everflame, I know.
Resting in a dungeon is a function of the size, complexity and difficulty of a dungeon. How successful resting in a dungeon is depends on the inhabitants of the dungeon.
I've run campaigns where resting is fairly easy, and I've run campaigns where resting is a real problem. In one campaign the party decided to clear out a rather extensive kobold lair, and that turned into a three day epic ordeal. The first night they tried to sleep, the kobolds tormented them by keeping them awake using a wide variety of tactics. In the end they did not get any sleep that first night, and had to continue on without regaining spells the next day. Only after clearing out about 2/3 of the lair and beating the kobolds down to a frazzle were they able to rest long enough to regain spells.
My campaigns are run as if the monsters and NPCs are self-deterministic and want to actually survive and live. So if a party decides to try to rest in a dungeon, they will have to either find a way to hide successfully, find a way to barricade themselves in such a way that they can't be disturbed, or else just hope that they manage to grab enough sleep/rest to regain spells. There is no guaranteed "safe room" in the vast majority of my campaign "dungeons." You want to rest, you take your chances.
I am quite happy for my player's characters to have the odd Wand of Cure X because it means they are less likely to have a 15 minute adventuring day and we can focus on doing the adventure rather than have them keep running back to town all the time.
Poisons people.
Poisons.
Cure Light Wounds got nothing on things that cause that much panic in a group.
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So Im reading this thread and thinking 'I dont get it'.
Some DM's like CLW some don't...whats the big deal....
As a DM, you control what's available in shops and temples.
You dont want a party to have the item, DON'T MAKE IT AVAILABLE.
simple. you dont need rules changes or such.
If a party decides to craft one, then let them...you control the pace of the game, dont let them have the time.
They say they will rest in town while its being done?
fine, advance the time table of whats going on and they miss the window of opportunity to do what they need to.
I don't get why a DM doesn't realize they hold the reins of the game in their two hands.
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I don't get why a DM doesn't realize they hold the reins of the game in their two hands.
Thought I had the reins in one hand and a sixgun in the other.
Thought I had the reins in one hand and a sixgun in the other.I don't get why a DM doesn't realize they hold the reins of the game in their two hands.
I generally have the reins in my teeth, my right hand filled with loaded dice and my left hand on my laptop...
I don't get why a DM doesn't realize they hold the reins of the game in their two hands.
Because this argument is really about what is the best playstyle and how both encounters and parties should be built.
I generally have the reins in my teeth, my right hand filled with loaded dice and my left hand on my laptop...Thought I had the reins in one hand and a sixgun in the other.I don't get why a DM doesn't realize they hold the reins of the game in their two hands.
So maybe the sixgun is why my players give me all those weird looks.
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I don't get why a DM doesn't realize they hold the reins of the game in their two hands.Because this argument is really about what is the best playstyle and how both encounters and parties should be built.
buttttt......there is no BEST playstyle. There's only your playstyle and his playstyle and her playstyle and my playstyle...we will all have differences.
None are best, each have its advantages and disadvantages. Each can be fun. Its just what you like.
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So maybe the sixgun is why my players give me all those weird looks.I generally have the reins in my teeth, my right hand filled with loaded dice and my left hand on my laptop...Thought I had the reins in one hand and a sixgun in the other.I don't get why a DM doesn't realize they hold the reins of the game in their two hands.
dang I really need to come into the 21st century. I just have a club.
I don't get why a DM doesn't realize they hold the reins of the game in their two hands.Because this argument is really about what is the best playstyle and how both encounters and parties should be built.buttttt......there is no BEST playstyle. There's only your playstyle and his playstyle and her playstyle and my playstyle...we will all have differences.
None are best, each have its advantages and disadvantages. Each can be fun. Its just what you like.
I don't disagree with this. I think the valuable part of this argument is discussion of the CLW wand within an assumed play-style. Some have argued that the CLW wand does not make HP management trivial, I have argued it does go in this direction.
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I get that. It does alter HP management. Personally I allow em and as a player I encourage the groups im in to add an additional share of the treasure alotted just for them....
but then when I played 1st Ed back in the day we did the same for jar's of K's ointment, staves of healing and rods of ressurection....
so I don't think things have changed that much ;)
i see nothing wrong with trading Gold pieces for Hit Points. this is what the wand of cure light wounds technically does. you are trading 3 gold pieces per hit point in bundles of 5.
i see nothing wrong with trading Gold pieces for Hit Points. this is what the wand of cure light wounds technically does. you are trading 3 gold pieces per hit point in bundles of 5.
The issue is not trading GP for HP, but rather what the rate should be. CLW wands are 3.3X as effective as potions of CLW.
but wands are balanced by a UMD check, the fact UMD is a charisma based skill, and the fact that few will make the UMD check required to use the skill without a fairly sizeable investment.
out of 22 classes, about 10 of them have access to the wand of cure light wounds, one of which lacks the ability to craft them due to it's exotic spellcasting exceptions and 2 of which aren't expected to due to their martial role.
others may try UMD, but that usually requires investment above and beyond the norm.
but wands are balanced by a UMD check, the fact UMD is a charisma based skill, and the fact that few will make the UMD check required to use the skill without a fairly sizeable investment.
out of 22 classes, about 10 of them have access to the wand of cure light wounds, one of which lacks the ability to craft them due to it's exotic spellcasting exceptions and 2 of which aren't expected to due to their martial role.
others may try UMD, but that usually requires investment above and beyond the norm.
A party of 4 often has someone with CLW on their list. The math upthread assumes people are buying and not crafting the wands.
I'm not sure why you suggest UMD requires a substantial investment? I've seen it used to get wands working fairly effectively.
Potions are more expensive than wands because anyone can use one. That applies for all spells, not just cure ones. The big difference with cure wand is that they're mostly going to be used between combats, while most wanded spells are only useful in combat, thus altering the math on action economy a little. It doesn't matter than only 1 party member can use the wand when it's being used during down time, but it can be crucial in combat when actions are limited.
I don't know that that's an argument to change the math on potions vs. wands solely for cure spells, though, although YMMV.
I'm seeing a lot of straw man arguments here. "What, would you prefer NO HEALING? You want the party to retire back to town after EVERY encounter?"
Well, no. The issue is not whether the party should have healing; of course it should. The issue is whether the CLW wand provides /too much/ healing.
Guys: are you really saying that without this item, this one particular item, your game is going to suck? Absent the wand, you're condemned to high casualty rates? to fighters collapsing while the casters are still going strong? to trudging back to town to rest for "days or weeks"? Absent this wand, this special wand, it's just going to be a lot less fun?
Doug M.
Just to be clear, what I was saying at least is that without cure wands, there is ONLY one specific class ability that can provide adequate hp healing, and that is channel energy. Otherwise a character has to burn all or most of their spells (or in some cases more then one day worth of spells) to return the party to health. And no i dont believe for a moment a party with normal wealth can afford to replace a cure wand with cure potions. The cost would be prohibative. A cure potion is there for emergencies, it is too expensive to be a typical form of healing unless the party has way above standard wealth.
Abset the wands, you have to have a cleric (or life oracle), and for me thats a bad design choice.
With wands, hit point healing can be dealt with by a paladin, cleric, rogue, druid, ranger, bard, oracle, inquisitor, or anyone with sufficient UMD. Witout wands, healing can be dealt with by clerics and life oracles. That means either the party tanks a big part of their wealth into potions, or they have a cleric. People will be pressured into playing something they may or may not want to play, and that is a negative consequence of taking out cure wands. Those 2 situations, have cleric or dump wealth on potions are the only possible alternatives to the scenario you mention as a strawman. A druid preparing one or two cure spells doesnt provide enough healing for an adventuring day. Its not a strawman, you just dont seem to see a problem with forcing people to play clerics.
I do wish that the "heal" skill actually allowed characters to "heal". I would think that healing up to your total skill value per day would be pretty balanced, with no more than your level going to any one character that day.
I might introduce that as a house rule...
I do wish that the "heal" skill actually allowed characters to "heal". I would think that healing up to your skill ranks per day would be pretty balanced, with no more than your level going to any one character that day.
I might introduce that as a house rule...
It does: Treat Deadly Wounds.
I am flummoxed. How did I miss that heal ability?
I retract.
I generally dont hand wave magic items.
I generally don't allow them to just be bought like they are on the menu.
One recent combat, the party was fighting an expert with a wand of acid splash.
The guy would run away, roll his umd, fail a lot and shout "Drat!" and rinse and repeat.
He got it to work twice. so the part knew he wash;t a crazy guy with a stick.
The ronin shot him with a bow, and the magus claimed the wand as her prize.
The magus, my daughter, uses the wand with the command word "drat!" because she thinks that's what she needs to say to get it to work. She has a better UMD than the expert. So i roll with it. DRAT! she shouts every time she rolls the dice... she's 11.
When and if they find items, i describe them in such a way to be special or of interest, which usually gets my wife to detect magic.
Then they go through the process of identifying, spellcraft checking, appraising etc.
It's fairly easy in my world to sell a magic item you can prove is magic, and usually get full price or a little more for it. It's magic, someone with money wants it.
Not so easy to buy exactly what you want. The curio shop is just as likely to carry wolves bane as a potion of remove curse. But a wand of cure light wounds with 50 charges?? You might try the temple of a god the PCs can prove they are affiliated with, and then pay the steep price and wait the time necessary to create it. In this case I have the magic items cost more to be specially made.
But it also requires RP to get it and, they dont get an automatic yes.
I also have certain patrons hand out things they might need, so a wand might come to them this way.
I generally have potions and scrolls available. Although an unscrupulous witch might sell you a curse potions or a fake scroll.
It's harder to sell something like a +1 sword when you find it because it's not overtly magic. although sometimes you might be able to find one at a used weapon shop no one knows IS magic, and might be able to get a DEAL.
I prefer magic to come from NPC and PC spells and monster abilities, I make crafting of magic a much harder feat to get and a higher level prereq, I push up the cost and time to do so.
The result is it makes magic for the sake of magic more rare, and magi mart non existent, which means what you find is more valuable.
They might find one, but it's hardly just trading gold for hp, they might not find another one soon, so it's a more limited resource.
I am flummoxed. How did I miss that heal ability?
I retract.
No sweat, I only learned about this addition to PF from 3.5 when I set out to play a mad doctor type (alchemist).
not that i want to sound like a troll, but it sounds like the GMs are too nice which causes them to find CLW wands to be an issue
i'm currently in a campaign where we just hit lvl 2, and we've already gone through one full CLW wand and are almost done with a second
one of our characters (mine) had to take the Rich Parents trait specifically so we could afford the CLW, because the GM said "you effing need it"
even at that, after equipping ourselves for adventuring with our starting GP (we had to buy EVERYTHING, backpacks, pouches, food, as well as weapons and armor, and that stuff adds up) we still got left with 0 GP between our party
we JUST got TO the dungeon for the second part of our campaign and we almost died on the way there, the valley the dungeon is in was more dangerous than an encounter, and our current CLW wand has <20 charges on it going into it
we have to actually worry about using it vs. going into a fight with <full HP
not to mention we have had to use them in combat because we got hit with a guy using Burning Hands and one of our guys spent an entire fight at -HP because he got hit by a physical attack just before the BH, and my paladin had to spend the entire fight trying to keep him stable (i kept rolling 1's)
at low levels its more than important to have access to this because my Paladin couldnt even LoH yet
and i also hate 15 min. campaign days, its a waste of resources and a dumb move by players if you ask me, but thats in the context that you're going on a lengthy adventure
sometimes PC's want an epic battle where they test the limits of their characters, and thats ok too
ultimately, the 'broken'ness of a wand of CLW comes from either an abundance of resources, or lack of dangers
i get the mentality going on by the OP tho (or at least what i think it is) that you shouldnt have to GM houserule or BAN something that belongs in the game, especially something core. and IMO the best balance is to up the dangers to make that CLW wand matter more, so that they either have to choose between dipping into their WBL advancement and improving their equipment and staying alive, the ideal GM can balance this in a way that is fun for both PCs and the GM
TL;DR balance is key, just like GMs opposing the combat optimizers and min-maxers, you have to make that wand of CLW a resource that they have to think about using
marshmallow, unless the GM is just deliberately pwning your group, you might want to think about having a strategy/tactics session with your party members... Using up 30 CLW spells on a hike through a valley on the way to the dungeon for a bunch of level 1 characters is... unusual.
I'm going to raise a dissenting voice and say that I'm fine with resting in a dungeon, at least occasionally.
No, I don't like the 15 minute adventuring day. But (1) some dungeons are just too darn big to finish in one go, and (2) sometimes you just have a bunch of a bad rolls, get chewed up, and need to retreat and regroup. So I'm not going to be too upset with designers for /sometimes/ slipping in a room that provides for that. (I agree that as a constant thing it would become pretty annoying.)
Doug M.
For 1), sure. If you are playing a campaign about going down of Undermountain or Kaer Maga, which involve several weeks of exploration and maybe a couple of levels (or a full 1-20 progression), it's obvious you need to sleep. And it's even part of the challenge (finding where to sleep)
For 2), this is where we disagree. Given the option of using CLWW and keep the adventure going, or going into a room with a big poster that says "monsters don't enter here", I'd rather take the first one, 10 times out of 10
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can i mention that this is Pathfinder not D&D?? this game is different.
wands of cure light wounds are a resource. get over it.
this game is not .. you hay you there you have to play a cleric and all that you can do is cast cure light wounds. otherwise the party dies. No. now with this game there is choice... a cure light wounds wand is healing. but it dose not replace a healer.. a real "healer" removes afflictions things like paralysis or fear..etc hit point damage is something every character should be able to fix in some way or another. if you cant your pretty much not pulling your weight in a party.
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I only dislike wands of CLW because wands of infernal healing are so much more cost effective for out-of-combat healing.
As a DM, I don't care if they have a cheap way to heal up between fights. Half the time I'll give them an out-of-combat healing thing.
As long as I'm doing enough damage that they need in-combat healing, I'm happy.
@Adamantine Dragon- you have no idea how hard it is to play with my group, you are 100% right
but our GM also offers extremely little loot (our group of 5 has a collective wealth of about 3000 gp, thats total including the gp we have already spent) and there are a redonkulous amount of dangers, but its part of the campaign we're playing which i actually like the 'hard mode' aspect to an extent
we get attacked EVERY time we go to rest, which means we don't recover our HP, because we all have to wake up and fight (so no full 8 hours of rest)
our PCs are really bad about balance, and most are 'there for fun' vs our GM and myself who spent a considerable amount of time learning PF (opposed to 3.5) so there is a significant difference in mentality towards this campaign
i.e. my paladin has become the party healer, and our rouge is now our damage tank, we have a summoner(for our caster, yes you can laugh), and we have a barbarian who is focused on grappling, and 'hogtying' people which he can't really do effectively....
there were also 2 fighters originally but those two players arent around anymore and when they were they were just there to troll the GM and it made the whole session a lot slower and a lot less fun
luckily as a sensible person i have been able to turn my character into the party face, become the healer (meaning the other PCs rely on me and need to think about pissing me off) i've also taken over the aspect of party funds, trying not to spend it all on myself (we had one of our PCs do this in 3.5 and we all decided that we only cared about our own loot after that, resulting in us fighting over loot in a really dumb way) and in addition to that i am capable of dealing considerable damage myself
im hoping i can keep the team going but it is rather difficult
can i mention that this is Pathfinder not D&D?? this game is different.
wands of cure light wounds are a resource. get over it.
this game is not .. you hay you there you have to play a cleric and all that you can do is cast cure light wounds. otherwise the party dies. No. now with this game there is choice... a cure light wounds wand is healing. but it dose not replace a healer.. a real "healer" removes afflictions things like paralysis or fear..etc hit point damage is something every character should be able to fix in some way or another. if you cant your pretty much not pulling your weight in a party.
You realize the wand rules are copy-pasted straight from the d20 SRD right?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm
You could have CLW wands in D&D. It was even a standard wand on the random table.
we sleep in dungeons, forests, sewers and other places all the time. can someone remind me of a dungeon or something that you CAN clear all in one shot with a party of 4, at level, without retreating back to town, or crashing for the night?
we sleep in dungeons, forests, sewers and other places all the time. can someone remind me of a dungeon or something that you CAN clear all in one shot with a party of 4, at level, without retreating back to town, or crashing for the night?
Lots of them. That's what CLW wands are for.
we sleep in dungeons, forests, sewers and other places all the time. can someone remind me of a dungeon or something that you CAN clear all in one shot with a party of 4, at level, without retreating back to town, or crashing for the night?Lots of them. That's what CLW wands are for.
That assumes they are attainable and readily available.
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From an old school to new school perspective - I don't think the issue is the CLWW in of itself (which I hate). I think the issue is the need to use a CLWW to function and the disconnect from going from an older style of play to the increased hp and dmg that 3rd+ systems offer.
My point being this - base healing spells do not heal enough damage in comparison to the dramatic changes from 2nd to 3rd plus systems. I am pretty old school, I hate the wands but I understand their function in the math game and keeping up with daily number expectations. Initially I resisted the idea of healing wands/devices beyond potions and spells. As I got a bit of system master of 3rd ed, I realized that there was a need for these items just by virtue of increased dmg output (even compared to increased player hp, increased damage output is exponential when dealing with multiple foes attacking them).
The problem I see is that the healing which is available in the game isn't enough and doesn't scale to level and expected incoming damage. This is with the assumption that you may want an older game feel, or you just don't like players relying on multiple items to get through their game day (and multiple charges), or that you think that CLWW are boring and flavorless item needed to play the game.
This is my take on the cause, but I don't know what the solution would be besides bumping up Cure spells that are cast or out of a potion. Maybe add half the base die value to a potion, ex 1st level CLW potion or spell 1d8+4+1(CL), 5th Cure Mod 2d8+8+5(CL)?
I am generally pretty conservative and resistant in up scaling anything when it comes to gaming, but I do see a math/numbers issue with healing and with Evocation damage. Especially when comparing old school to new school gaming, adventure workday and "how we did it in our time" arguments. The advent of the CLWW is a result of healing spells not being up to snuff.
The perk of extra spell slots over those available in older editions still doesn't match up with the exponentially increased hp (more so for each creature you encounter in multiples) that you have to heal from or damage with Evocation spells. So in my game I am working of giving evo damage spells extra effects, and if I don't want CLWW or similar items (just for the raw hp output) in my game I may consider bumping the healing that comes from spells or potions.
So it isn't the CLWW per se, but the function and math of healing in the game.
Still think the damn things (all wands) are way underpriced.
Anyway, just my take on it.
That assumes they are attainable and readily available.we sleep in dungeons, forests, sewers and other places all the time. can someone remind me of a dungeon or something that you CAN clear all in one shot with a party of 4, at level, without retreating back to town, or crashing for the night?Lots of them. That's what CLW wands are for.
I'm talking about Pathfinder, yes.
I'm talking about Pathfinder, yes.That assumes they are attainable and readily available.we sleep in dungeons, forests, sewers and other places all the time. can someone remind me of a dungeon or something that you CAN clear all in one shot with a party of 4, at level, without retreating back to town, or crashing for the night?Lots of them. That's what CLW wands are for.
There is nothing about pathfinder that ASSUMES they are there, that they are behind every rock, or that if you have one their charges are replentishable or you can just waddle over to the store and buy one.
That's not "in the rules" anywhere.
nor does everyone just have something like this ready at all times with as many charges as would be needed to get through a dungeon.
I'm talking about Pathfinder, yes.That assumes they are attainable and readily available.we sleep in dungeons, forests, sewers and other places all the time. can someone remind me of a dungeon or something that you CAN clear all in one shot with a party of 4, at level, without retreating back to town, or crashing for the night?Lots of them. That's what CLW wands are for.There is nothing about pathfinder that ASSUMES they are there, that they are behind every rock, or that if you have one their charges are replentishable or you can just waddle over to the store and buy one.
That's not "in the rules" anywhere.
nor does everyone just have something like this ready at all times with as many charges as would be needed to get through a dungeon.
The Table 15-1 shows the base value of different communities. here is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale with little effort in that community.
CLWW are cheap, can be bought with little effort 75% of the time in any Small Town, which is a population range of 200 to 2000. So if your party does not have plenty of them when going to the dungeon it's because they don't want to, or they aren't playing under pathfinder assumptions. The former means they sleep in the dungeons because they preffer to do so instead of spending gold to heal, the later means you are playing under a different assumption than the game gives you.
Changing the game assumption isn't forbidden. You can for example ban divine classes in your campaign, if there are no gods in it. It makes healing much more harder to come by. Or you could ban magic altogether, if you want a Conan-like feel. But that's not the standard pathfinder and it's not what the game take as assumption.
So to answer your question:
can someone remind me of a dungeon or something that you CAN clear all in one shot with a party of 4, at level, without retreating back to town, or crashing for the night?
In Pathfinder, lots of them. That's what CLWW are for, and that's why you can buy them so damn easily and in big quantities.
I only dislike wands of CLW because wands of infernal healing are so much more cost effective for out-of-combat healing.
10 rounds of in-combat bleed proofing are nothing to be sniffed at either.